alacritous cogitation shenanigans.

[Darth Stabber]

So alacritous cogitation (CMage), allows you to leave a spell slot open to cast any spell you know 1/day. Except that the cast time becomes a full round action. Now while this idea has probably already been brought up, and probably doesn't work, but can I use it to cast, say identify as a full round action? Also if I use it to pull out one of the channeled spells from phb2, does it automatically stick me with the full round mode? And can I qualify for prestige classes that require arcane spells without preperation? Because if all these are true, that feat is pretty abusable, while being disguised as reasonable.

[NNescio]

The errata has the "...no longer than 1 round" clause.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"Casting the spell requires a full-round action."
"Casting the spell requires [only] a full-round action."
"Casting the spell requires [at least] a full-round action."
Completely up to the DM, but count on the latter interpretation.

Other than that, it's no more abusable than the Spontaneous Divination ACF in CC for meeting spontaneous caster prerequisites.

Edit: After reviewing the errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a), it can indeed only be used to spontaneously cast spells whose normal casting time is no greater than 1 round. I guess you could cast a 1 round spell such as Summon Monster as a full-round action, but you may as well get the Rapid Summoning ACF from UA/SRD to make all your summons a standard action.

[Big Fau]

So alacritous cogitation (CMage), allows you to leave a spell slot open to cast any spell you know 1/day. Except that the cast time becomes a full round action. Now while this idea has probably already been brought up, and probably doesn't work, but can I use it to cast, say identify as a full round action? Also if I use it to pull out one of the channeled spells from phb2, does it automatically stick me with the full round mode? And can I qualify for prestige classes that require arcane spells without preperation? Because if all these are true, that feat is pretty abusable, while being disguised as reasonable.

The feat has been errata'ed.

There's a better version in Exemplars of Evil though, called Uncanny Forethought.

[NNescio]

The feat has been errata'ed.

There's a better version in Exemplars of Evil though, called Uncanny Forethought.

Doesn't it requires Spell Mastery though?

[dextercorvia]

Doesn't it requires Spell Mastery though?

Yes, and it nerfs your caster level for spell which aren't mastered.

It is better than Alacritous Cogitation, but since you are spending two feats to get the benefit, the guy who started with AC, now has Versatile Spellcaster, and can do it all day.

[Zaq]

Out of curiosity, would this be the Complete Mage errata that clarified the matter, or the Tome of Battle errata?

[Big Fau]

Doesn't it requires Spell Mastery though?

Yes, but you get more uses/day out of UF than AC. And you can use UF one of two ways: With your Spellbook or with your mastered spells (the former applying a CL penalty, but only -2).


Out of curiosity, would this be the Complete Mage errata that clarified the matter, or the Tome of Battle errata?


Both. :smallfurious:

[Thurbane]

Yes, and it nerfs your caster level for spell which aren't mastered.

It is better than Alacritous Cogitation, but since you are spending two feats to get the benefit, the guy who started with AC, now has Versatile Spellcaster, and can do it all day.
It's still extremely useful, even for the spells you don't have Spell Mastery for. There's plenty of very handy, situational spells that don't depend much (or at all) on caster level - and even for the ones that do, it's only a 2 level caster drop.

Also, unlike AC, it doesn't specify that you need to be any particular caster type. Yes, you need to be a Wizard to take the req Spell Mastery feat, but a 1 level Wizard dip can get you that. Depending how cheese tolerant you are...

[dextercorvia]

It's still extremely useful, even for the spells you don't have Spell Mastery for. There's plenty of very handy, situational spells that don't depend much (or at all) on caster level - and even for the ones that do, it's only a 2 level caster drop.

Also, unlike AC, it doesn't specify that you need to be any particular caster type. Yes, you need to be a Wizard to take the req Spell Mastery feat, but a 1 level Wizard dip can get you that. Depending how cheese tolerant you are...

Thats why I made the point that if you are going for a Two Feat Chain, Alacritous Cogitation + Versatile Spellcaster is better in every way to Spell Mastery + Uncanny Forethought.

VS also doesn't care whether the spells are arcane on divine.

[Thurbane]

I'm not sure I understand how VS assists AC? Doesn't AC have a fixed usage of 1/day?

[dextercorvia]

I'm not sure I understand how VS assists AC? Doesn't AC have a fixed usage of 1/day?

But VS does not. And it lets you cast spells spontaneously using lower level slots.

[Thurbane]

Ah, I see now. Sounds like it would be a tactic that chewed up a lot more spell slots in the long run than UF.

Also, there might be some controversy as to whether AC qualifies you for VS in the first place, since it has the req of "Ability to spontaneously cast spells".

[dextercorvia]

That is a hang-up for some. In which case, there are other ways.

But, assuming that it isn't problem, it chews up lower level spell slots, but think of how many more of your highest level slots you are gaining from the deal.

[Big Fau]

But VS does not. And it lets you cast spells spontaneously using lower level slots.

Except that VS+AC is more likely to get books thrown/banned than SM+UF. Especially since one is clearly intended to work that way, while the other is TO material.

[dextercorvia]

If you think that is TO, I really need to cast Summon Optimizer IX, so you can see the difference. Versatile Spellcaster is a powerful feat with a wording that allows for a variety of entries. AC may be the dodgiest of entries in some groups because of the pluralization argument, but in an environment where Sorcerers want to be able to access PrC's at the intended level, it is just fine.

[Darth Stabber]

Ah, I see now. Sounds like it would be a tactic that chewed up a lot more spell slots in the long run than UF.

Also, there might be some controversy as to whether AC qualifies you for VS in the first place, since it has the req of "Ability to spontaneously cast spells".

I am one to frequently argue that semantic point with regards to precocious apprentice since it gives 1 specific spell once per day, so for that feat I would rule against early PRC entry (ie able to cast 2nd level spells).

Alacritous cogitation gives you any spell you know once per day.

So the plurality question is whether it counts number of slots, or options for those slots. If the former it does not, if the latter than yes, although I would be tempted to lean to the former given the Sorcerer's spells known progression.

[ILM]

AC may be the dodgiest of entries in some groups because of the pluralization argument,
In every discussion involving the pluralization argument, I like to remind the following: a lot of PrCs require you to be able to cast, say, 3rd level spells, plural. A 6th level sorcerer has only 1 3rd-level spell known. Upholding the pluralization argument means you're delaying sorcs from entering PrCs by yet another level. Ouch.

[dextercorvia]

If you have that ruling in place, then Spontaneous Divination+Versatile Spellcaster is the 'feat' chain you want for spontaneous wizardry.

Of course the chassis you want is a Focused Specialist, since VS is going to get you around the limited nature of your slots.

[dextercorvia]

In every discussion involving the pluralization argument, I like to remind the following: a lot of PrCs require you to be able to cast, say, 3rd level spells, plural. A 6th level sorcerer has only 1 3rd-level spell known. Upholding the pluralization argument means you're delaying sorcs from entering PrCs by yet another level. Ouch.

I did say that after the comma, right?

[ILM]

I did say that after the comma, right?
Huh, how did I miss that? Evidently I was just clarifying your argument. Yes, that's definitely what I was doing. Not a brainfart at all, no sir. Move along.

[dextercorvia]

Huh, how did I miss that? Evidently I was just clarifying your argument. Yes, that's definitely what I was doing. Not a brainfart at all, no sir. Move along.

I appreciate all the help I can get.

[Big Fau]

If you think that is TO, I really need to cast Summon Optimizer IX, so you can see the difference. Versatile Spellcaster is a powerful feat with a wording that allows for a variety of entries. AC may be the dodgiest of entries in some groups because of the pluralization argument, but in an environment where Sorcerers want to be able to access PrC's at the intended level, it is just fine.

It's TO because it requires a reading that is flat-out insane. While it is easy to see the reading, no DM would allow it because A) It makes the Wizard insanely more powerful and B) Because VS isn't supposed to be used by prepared casters.

AC+VS is squarely in TO territory. It may not be utterly game-breaking (like Shadow Miracles), but it's still something no DM would allow if they had any sense of class balance.

[dextercorvia]

Do you have a quote to indicate your belief of intent?

It is no more "insane" than Rainbow Warsnake, and that sees play.

[Big Fau]

Do you have a quote to indicate your belief of intent?

It is no more "insane" than Rainbow Warsnake, and that sees play.

The fact that one is intended for Spontaneous Casters (AKA Sorcerers), as evidenced by the book it's printed in being about Dragons (spontaneous casters) and the races that venerate/mimic them (three of which make excellent spontaneous casters), and the other being specifically for Prepared Casters.

Even assuming you can somehow make an argument with Ultimate Magus, the fact remains that one feat is intended for a class that prepares spells, while the other is intended for a class that casts spontaneously.


Edit: And how can you even compare it to Rainbow Warsnake? That exploit turns a Tier 4 into a MAD Tier 1 (a spontaneous Cleric with access to the Warmage spell list), whereas this just improves upon a Tier 1 (enabling a Wizard to cast any spell in his spellbook of any level, provided he has two spells slots of one level lower than the spell he wants to cast).

[FMArthur]

But Uncanny Forethought can cast Apocalypse From the Sky as a full-round action. :smallcool:

[Big Fau]

But Uncanny Forethought can cast Apocalypse From the Sky as a full-round action. :smallcool:

THAT was an editing oversight. Something WotC has proven to be capable of. Very capable. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Errata_ToB.zip)

[dextercorvia]

A cleric doesn't even need something like Alacritous to get Versatile Spellcaster. That they didn't anticipate Alacritous Cogitation or Uncanny Forethought or Spontaneous Divination or even a Sorcerer dip when they wrote Versatile Spellcaster, I can stomach briefly, but a Core Cleric is eligible to take the feat as written and doesn't even have to track down extra spells known. He knows them all!