Sun and Moon

[ExemplarofAvg]

In Dungeonscape there's an ACF for Wizards where you gain an extra spellslot and designate one as the Sun and the Moon, and if you cast one you can't cast the other. Which led to some thought processes and I wondered how many spells exist that counter and cancel each other, off the Top of my head I can think of Daylight and Darkness and Slow and Hate, but are there any others. and is there a way to I guess cast the Opposite spell, like say you had prepared Slow but could instead Cast it as Haste?

[Cog]

The closest I'm recalling to that is Truenamer; I think they're able to speak some of their Truenames in reverse.

I'd confirm, but that would involve rereading Truenamer.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Eew...... Truenamer. I think it's time to Homebrew a Feat or Item that allows me to do that, lol.

[Tvtyrant]

Used to work that way for a lot of cleric spells back in ye olden days (AD&D).

[Psyren]

The closest I'm recalling to that is Truenamer; I think they're able to speak some of their Truenames in reverse.

I'd confirm, but that would involve rereading Truenamer.

Actually, Truenamer is a very fun read! It's not like you can do much else with it anyway :smalltongue:

[Veyr]

I'll confirm, then: Yes, all Utterances can be used in "reverse" so that they have the opposite effect. One can Haste your allies or Slow your enemies, for example.

[Ravens_cry]

The best thing about Truenamer is figuring out how to improve. Personally, I would take out the Gate ability, as it feels like a consolation prize. "Ooh, you sucked for most of the game, now you get this, even though it makes little to no thematic sense." There have been some pretty good homebrew fixes I here, maybe try those.

[ExemplarofAvg]

I've never actually played it, I'm going on here-say that it's bad. However how does it compare to the Marshall, which is the worst class I've ever played (Single classes, no Prestige)

[Psyren]

I've never actually played it, I'm going on here-say that it's bad. However how does it compare to the Marshall, which is the worst class I've ever played (Single classes, no Prestige)

There's nothing to compare, really. Truenamers simply don't work as written and require extensive DM assistance to even become playable, never mind competitive.

Without this assistance, you'll have a much harder time fighting your own class features than the monsters themselves.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Ah, so where the Marshall becomes slowly useless due to dead levels higher on. The Truenamer is just confusing and difficult.

Addendum:
Thank you to everyone for information about the Truenamer, but as to part 2, does anyone know what some of the spells that are diametrically opposite, as stated before I can think of two sets.

Darkness<->Daylight.
Haste<->Slow
Are there others? Or is that just them?

[Cog]

Search for "counters and dispels" with the quotes here (http://www.d20srd.org/) and you'll get about two pages of spell results.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Thank you, Cog.

[Psyren]

There are more from splats too, e.g.:

Amplify <-> Silence (SpC)
Raging Flame <-> Slow Burn (SpC)
Profane Item <-> Sacred Item (CC)
Resinous Tar <-> Grease (CM)
Various light and darkness spells

Haven't checked PHB2 or the other completes yet so there may be more.

[Kantolin]

Enlarge / Reduce person
Flesh to Stone / Stone to Flesh
Antipathy / Sympathy

[Big Fau]

I'll confirm, then: Yes, all Utterances can be used in "reverse" so that they have the opposite effect. One can Haste your allies or Slow your enemies, for example.

Negative: Only the Lexicon of the Evolving Mind works this way. And that's the hardest one to use.

[Heliomance]

Ah, so where the Marshall becomes slowly useless due to dead levels higher on. The Truenamer is just confusing and difficult.

No, the Truenamer just doesn't work

Your casting is based off a skill check. The DC of the skill check scales with twice the CR of the creature you're trying to affect. The DC scales with level faster than you can increase your Truenaming skill.

By about level 11, IIRC, the DCs become literally impossible to hit against level-appropriate enemies, without levels of optimisation that would qualify as cheese of the highest order in any other situation.

[ILM]

Crushing Despair also has a counter. I forget which one though, Good Hope or Elation?

[T.G. Oskar]

Crushing Despair also has a counter. I forget which one though, Good Hope or Elation?

Good Hope.

Cleric gets most of the spells that counter each other: Consecrate <> Desecrate, Hallow <> Unhallow...

Or Transmute Rock to Mud <> Transmute Mud to Rock. A Wizard spell, to boot.

[Taelas]

No, the Truenamer just doesn't work

Your casting is based off a skill check. The DC of the skill check scales with twice the CR of the creature you're trying to affect. The DC scales with level faster than you can increase your Truenaming skill.

By about level 11, IIRC, the DCs become literally impossible to hit against level-appropriate enemies, without levels of optimisation that would qualify as cheese of the highest order in any other situation.

What exactly do you call 'cheese'? You can increase the Truespeak skill rather easily if your DM cooperates, even before going into the +30 custom items.

[ExemplarofAvg]

I'm avoiding the Transmute X to Y, spells because that allows for a chaining of spells if done that way. One that goes all around the board (Glass to Sand to Mud to Rock to Lava) And then when the glass ceiling at the banquet turned to Lava midway after falling down, well... we became the wealthiest people, but aside from that..

Here's what I have so far

Slow <-> Haste
(Transmuation Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3)

Consecrate <-> Desecrate
(Evocation [Good] Clr 2)
(Evocation [Evil] Clr 2, Evil 2)

Reduce Person <-> Enlarge Person
(Transmuation Sor/Wiz 1)
(Strength 1)

Heat Metal <-> Chill Metal
(Transmutation [Cold] Drd 2)
(Transmutation [Fire] Drd 2, Sun 2)

Bestow Curse <-> Remove Curse
(Necromancy, Clr 3, Sor/Wiz4)
(Abjuration Brd 3, Clr 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 4)

Deeper Darkness <-> Daylight
(Evocation [Darkness] Clr 3)
(Evocation [Light] Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz3)

Sympathy <-> Antipathy
(Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind Affecting] Drd 9,Sor/Wiz 8)

Cause Fear <-> Remove Fear
(Necromancy [Fear, Mind Affecting] Brd1,Clr1,Death1,Sor/Wiz1)
(Abjuration Brd 1, Clr 1)

Good Hope <-> Crushing Despair
(Enchantment (Compulsion, Mind Affecting Brd 3)
(Sor/Wiz 4)

Bane <-> Bless
(Enchantment (Compulsion, Fear, Mind Affecting Clr 1)
(Compulsion, Mind Affecting, Clr 1, Pal 1)

Blindness/Deafness <-> Remove Blindness/Deafness
(Necromancy (Brd 2, Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 2)
(Conjuration (Healing) Clr 3, Pal 3)

Flesh to Stone <-> Stone to Flesh
(Transmutation Sor/Wiz Lv6)

It's fairly straight forward I believe, the first one is described first, if there's any elements listed in the first that exist in the second I didn't feel the need to restate it. Some are exactly the same, which is nice.