[3.5] Random "Negative" metamagic from artifact.

[Gnoman]

Are there any metamagic feats/abilities that weaken a spell in exchange for a decrease in caster level?


An artifact I'm designing as part of a dungeon has the effect of applying a random metamagic feat to any spell cast in it's radius. I don't want every effect of it to be a standard positive effect, as it's potentially so powerful that the players are likely to keep it in their possession and just not use area effects (because the artifact applies a random effect, the blast radius is uncertain.) If, however, sometimes it causes a spell to have minimum damage, or quarter duration, there's more of a risk/reward concept.

[Yuki Akuma]

I don't think even Wizards of the Coast were insane enough to allow people to put 4th-level spells in 3rd-level slots (or whatever).

No reason you couldn't homebrew some as special effects of the artifact, though.

[Tvtyrant]

You could minimize damage dice rolls for -2. Seems a fair system.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

You could minimize damage dice rolls for -2. Seems a fair system.

Agreed. If you reverse the effects of other metamagic feats it seems fair enough to say you could count them as a lower spell slot. I would still require that you be capable of casting the original spell first, though.

[Yuki Akuma]

On the other hand, who cares if you're only dealing 1 Con damage if you can cast the spell a ton more times?

Also, using second-level slots to get through a lesser globe of invulnerability strikes me as... not-good.

Honestly, I say just make the artifact give spells random variables, including negative ones. Don't homebrew feats characters can take.

[Tvtyrant]

On the other hand, who cares if you're only dealing 1 Con damage if you can cast the spell a ton more times?

Also, using second-level slots to get through a lesser globe of invulnerability strikes me as... not-good.

Honestly, I say just make the artifact give spells random variables, including negative ones. Don't homebrew feats characters can take.

Well obviously the metamagic would have to effect the spell itself; a metamagic effect that makes the lesser globe of invulnerability last one round wouldn't be too bad.

[Amphetryon]

If you squint your eyes and read Sanctum Spell somewhat liberally, you could, theoretically, make it useful for this purpose.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well obviously the metamagic would have to effect the spell itself; a metamagic effect that makes the lesser globe of invulnerability last one round wouldn't be too bad.

I... um...

What?

Lesser globe of invulnerability blocks all spells of 3rd level or lower. This includes any metamagic'd spell (unless it's Heightened), because spells retain their spell level no matter what slot they're in.

Casters tend to have more lower level slots than higher level ones.

If you could apply a metamagic feat to make a 4th level spell fit into a 2nd level slot, you would be able to use your 2nd level slots (of which you have many more) to blast the guy in the lesser globe of invulnerability.

This is Not Good.

[Gnoman]

Honestly, I say just make the artifact give spells random variables, including negative ones. Don't homebrew feats characters can take.

Never intended. It's supposed to be a malfuntioning artifact that [originally just applied every metamagic feat. After 50,000 years and the death of half the gods that made it, it doesn't do that anymore.

[Telonius]

Honestly, I say just make the artifact give spells random variables, including negative ones. Don't homebrew feats characters can take.

I'd second this. It's an Artifact, and Artifacts are Special. It does what you say it does, and unless the players are using Epic magic they don't have to worry about how to make one themselves.

[Yuki Akuma]

Never intended. It's supposed to be a malfuntioning artifact that [originally just applied every metamagic feat. After 50,000 years and the death of half the gods that made it, it doesn't do that anymore.

Alright then.

Put a few "minimum damage dice", "half range", "half area", "half damage" results on the random modification table. Maybe a few that lower CL or spell level, too.

[Tvtyrant]

I... um...

What?

Lesser globe of invulnerability blocks all spells of 3rd level or lower. This includes any metamagic'd spell (unless it's Heightened), because spells retain their spell level no matter what slot they're in.

Casters tend to have more lower level slots than higher level ones.

If you could apply a metamagic feat to make a 4th level spell fit into a 2nd level slot, you would be able to use your 2nd level slots (of which you have many more) to blast the guy in the lesser globe of invulnerability.

This is Not Good.
1. With an incredibly weak attack, likely weaker then just hitting them with an orb spell of that level.
2. The ability to overcome a casters protections doesn't bother me all that much; the fact that casters have blanket protections is broken to begin with.

[Yuki Akuma]

Some spells are horrible even if they hit you for minimum damage - ability drain, for instance. Negative levels. Insta-kill spells that deal damage on a succesful save. Etc.

[Tvtyrant]

And casters should be immune to these things? I'm not sure I understand how this is objectionable; the Fighter doesn't get to cast Globe of Invulnerability on itself.

[Yuki Akuma]

The Fighter is still screwed when the Wizard is suddenly carrying around five times as many negative levels as usual.

[navar100]

The idea has been proposed in the past, but it doesn't work because it's broken.

Here's a common one:

Minimize Spell

Choose a spell that has its effect determined by a dice roll. The dice are presumed to have rolled the minimum. A Minimized Spell deals the least amount of damage, heals the least amount of hit points, affects the least number of targets, etc. A Minimize Spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal.

Here is how it's broken. A 5th level cleric casts Minimize Cure Light Wounds, healing 6 points of damage using a 0-level slot, which is a lot more than Cure Minor Wounds. A 9th level wizard casts Minimize Magic Missile and sends all 5 missiles against the same target, automatically hitting for 10 damage total using only a 0th level slot. Name a 0-level spell that could do that.

[Wings of Peace]

Mind Mage (http://www.angelfire.com/pro/demon_1/prc_mind_mage.htm) gets a variation of what you describe. Read "Focus of Discipline".

[Lapak]

I don't want every effect of it to be a standard positive effect, as it's potentially so powerful that the players are likely to keep it in their possession and just not use area effects


Never intended. It's supposed to be a malfuntioning artifact that [originally just applied every metamagic feat. After 50,000 years and the death of half the gods that made it, it doesn't do that anymore.Based on your description, may I suggest an alternative solution? Solve it an old-style way, with a cumulative random chance of mishap. Something along the lines of:


However, the slow decay of years has given Gnoman's Magical Amplifier a subtle defect, and repeated use carries a severe danger. Each time the Amplifier is used, there is a 1% cumulative chance that the artifact will be unable to draw the power required from its environment and will instead draw from its user. This process deals damage to the user equal to 10 times the spell levels that user has currently prepared with no save; if this is enough to reduce the user to 0 hit points, treat them as if affected by a Disintegrate spell. Creatures within 5 feet of the user when this occurs suffer 2 times the user's prepared spell levels in damage, Reflex save for half.

Artifacts are one of the few things where applying this kind of devastating random chance can be a good idea in 3.x. You can (and should) provide warning as the device gets increasingly 'clogged'; let it start emitting light that grows more intense, shuddering violently when they use it, and so on.

[Gnoman]

I'd have a hrad time justifying that in-universe, as it would violate teh precedents I've set for how artifacts malfunction. It's a good idea, but not workable in this case.

navar100:

I may not be being clear. I am not making any new feats. The players will not ever be able to prepare spells in this manner. It is the result of a broken, erratic energy field around an artifact. The players cannot control it, and prepare and cast their spells as normal. Regardless of the effect of the artifact, fireball will only use a 3rd-level slot. Not 1st. Not 9th, weather it randomly becomes an enlarged maximized fireball or a reduced minimized one. The spell level adjustments are purely for determining if the spell fails because it was reduced below zeroth level. Is there anymore confusion on this matter?

[NNescio]

Based on your description, may I suggest an alternative solution? Solve it an old-style way, with a cumulative random chance of mishap. Something along the lines of:


However, the slow decay of years has given Gnoman's Magical Amplifier a subtle defect, and repeated use carries a severe danger. Each time the Amplifier is used, there is a 1% cumulative chance that the artifact will be unable to draw the power required from its environment and will instead draw from its user. This process deals damage to the user equal to 10 times the spell levels that user has currently prepared with no save; if this is enough to reduce the user to 0 hit points, treat them as if affected by a Disintegrate spell. Creatures within 5 feet of the user when this occurs suffer 2 times the user's prepared spell levels in damage, Reflex save for half.

Artifacts are one of the few things where applying this kind of devastating random chance can be a good idea in 3.x. You can (and should) provide warning as the device gets increasingly 'clogged'; let it start emitting light that grows more intense, shuddering violently when they use it, and so on.

Gnomish technology at its finest.

That said, it's easily circumventable with spontaneous casting.

[CrashTestGenius]

Got a few questions.

1) What level are the characters in your party?

2) Is this artifact small enough for them to carry around with them, or is it much larger/heavier?

[Gnoman]

~14ish

It's head-sized and head shaped.

[CrashTestGenius]

And when the artifact applies the metamagic feat, this is after (or while) they cast it, correct?

Meaning a "fireball" spell still gets cast at a level 3 slot, and then the MM feat gets assigned to it, thereby not raising the spell slot used?

[Gnoman]

Precisely. Likewise, the casting time is normal for the spell in the case of spontaneous casters.

[CrashTestGenius]

Yeah, I'd just say reverse some already-made MM feats, like:

Empower -> Enfeebled
All variable, numeric effects are decreased by one-half. Lowers the spell by 2 levels.

Enlarge -> Shrink
Decreases the range of the spell by 50% so that close/medium/long spell ranges are now 12.5/50/200 feet. Lowers the spell by 1 level.

Etc.

[ericgrau]

You could minimize damage dice rolls for -2. Seems a fair system.

Until you minimize a mass cure/inflict light wounds and the system becomes borked. Or a minimized pyrotechnics to blind all your foes for 2 rounds as a cantrip.

Negative metamagic would be hard to pull off; you have to account for the worst thing a player might pull.

[Yuki Akuma]

Does this mean that if a Sorcerer rolls the Quickened effect, they can cast a spell as a swift action?

That could get kinda neat if a spontaneous caster also had a source of luck rerolls.

[Tvtyrant]

Until you minimize a mass cure/inflict light wounds and the system becomes borked. Or a minimized pyrotechnics to blind all your foes for 2 rounds as a cantrip.

Negative metamagic would be hard to pull off; you have to account for the worst thing a player might pull.

By level 7 you have as many first level spells as cantrips anyways; just make the pre-reqs high enough that it is no longer a viable strategy. If you get them at level 8+ it isn't nearly as much of a worry as metamagic reducers are.

[Gnoman]

Does this mean that if a Sorcerer rolls the Quickened effect, they can cast a spell as a swift action?

That could get kinda neat if a spontaneous caster also had a source of luck rerolls.

No. Besides the fact that the artifact triggers when a spell is cast in it's vicinity (thus the casting time is over), I'm not going to put Quickened on the table.


Besides the general question, suggestions for which 9 metamagic feats will be on the table would be welcome. (there will be 9 "good" results, 9 "bad" results, one null result, and 1 "roll twice and combine. If another 20 is rolled, roll three times and combine."

[CrashTestGenius]

I don't think any of these other people are getting it.

The characters will NOT be preparing high-level spells at lower slot levels by taking these negative metamagic effects. They cast the spells as they prepared the spells, and THEN the metamagic effects are applied. They're not prepared at different levels, but they do take on different spell levels as they are cast.

[Yuki Akuma]

I don't think any of these other people are getting it.

The characters will NOT be preparing high-level spells at lower slot levels by taking these negative metamagic effects. They cast the spells as they prepared the spells, and THEN the metamagic effects are applied. They're not prepared at different levels, but they do take on different spell levels as they are cast.

Yes. We know. He's said so. Twice.

[ericgrau]

By level 7 you have as many first level spells as cantrips anyways; just make the pre-reqs high enough that it is no longer a viable strategy. If you get them at level 8+ it isn't nearly as much of a worry as metamagic reducers are.

Quickened minimized pyrotechnics or quickened minimized mass cure/inflict light wounds. Enemies blind / hurt and oh then comes my actual turn.

[Gnoman]

And yet we still have people talking about "prepare for what the player might pull" and "make sure the prerequisites are high enough."

[Tvtyrant]

Quickened minimized pyrotechnics or quickened minimized mass cure/inflict light wounds. Enemies blind / hurt and oh then comes my actual turn.

6 damage as a swift action? Or have a bonfire just handily sitting around for you to make an attempt to blind them? Since both would use a 4th level slot, I wouldn't be too bothered by it. Seriously, 6 damage is nothing at that level.

And I did say -2 on the minimize, so it would still be +2 to quicken something. Better, but not enough to be impressive. Compared to a metamagic reducing class its really not much.

[Yuki Akuma]

And yet we still have people talking about "prepare for what the player might pull" and "make sure the prerequisites are high enough."

Discussing a subject tangentially related to the post's actual topic happens a lot around here.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Retract Spell
The duration of all spells with variable duration times is assumed to be at its minimum. A retracted Enlarge Person, for example, has a duration of only one minute, while a retracted Mage Armor has a duration of one hour.
A retracted spell uses a spell slot one level lower than the spell's level.

Renders round/level buffs and battlefield control spells completely irrelevant, and creates the potential for inefficient casting usage by way of killing durations.

Empathic Spell
Upon casting the spell, the caster feels an empathic bond form with its target. The caster gains all effects of a spell with a range other than Personal that has a creature other than the caster as its target as if it was also cast upon the caster. The caster does not receive a save; instead, he assumes the save result of the spell's original target. If the spell affects multiple targets, the spell affects the caster fully unless every target made its save. (The caster does not gain the benefit of any class benefits or spell effects that were applied by its target; for example, if a Rogue with Evasion makes its Reflex save against an empathic Fireball, the caster still takes half damage.)
An empathic spell uses a spell slot two levels lower than the original spell.

Great for buffs, terrible for blasts and debuffs. Steer clear of Phantasmal Killer and Discintegrate!

[Gnoman]

The first I like, and is going on the table.


The second could also be fun.

[Magesmiley]

As a number of people have pointed out, the biggest problem with negative adjustment metamagic is that it reduces the level below normal, which has all sorts of balance problems.

With that in mind, I'll suggest a slight twist: what if a negative metamagic feat could reduce the level, but not below the base level of the spell. Essentially, it would only be useful for counteracting the increased level brought on by other metamagic feats.

Something like this should provide less of a modifier than the comparable "positive" version of the "negative" metamagic feat.

As an example:

SLOW SPELL [METAMAGIC]
Benefit: Casting a slow spell increases the casting time of a spell by an additional full-round action. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be slowed. A slowed spell reduces the total increase in spell slot level for the metamagic feats applied to the spell by two (but not below a total spell slot level modifier of zero).

So... someone could apply this along with silent spell and still spell to cast the spell in its normal spell slot.

[jmelesky]

Limited Spell

Any spell with a range of: touch, close, medium, or long, is reduced in range by one step (to self, touch, close, medium, respectively). A Limited spell takes up a spell slot one level lower than the original spell. Spells can be affected by this feat more than once: the effects and costs stack. Spells that do not have a range of touch, close, medium, or long, cannot benefit from this feat.

Second Chance Spell

Whenever a creature targeted by a Second Chance spell, or within its area of effect, fails on its saving throw against the effect, the creature may make another saving throw. If it succeeds on this second saving throw, it is affected as if it had succeeded at the first saving throw. A Second Chance spell takes up a spell slot two levels lower than the actual spell level.

[Gnoman]

Limited Spell

Any spell with a range of: touch, close, medium, or long, is reduced in range by one step (to self, touch, close, medium, respectively). A Limited spell takes up a spell slot one level lower than the original spell. Spells can be affected by this feat more than once: the effects and costs stack. Spells that do not have a range of touch, close, medium, or long, cannot benefit from this feat.


I really like this idea. The problem is that, if the effect is applied after casting, it just might drop a fireball or other AoE spell in the wrong spot and fry half the party. I'm trying not to make this too lethal.



Second Chance Spell

Whenever a creature targeted by a Second Chance spell, or within its area of effect, fails on its saving throw against the effect, the creature may make another saving throw. If it succeeds on this second saving throw, it is affected as if it had succeeded at the first saving throw. A Second Chance spell takes up a spell slot two levels lower than the actual spell level.

This is an excellent idea. It won't kill off the party if applied wrong, but is still of enough significance that rolling it will be a real pain.

Here's the table so far:


D20

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Empathic Spell?
13
14 Second Chance Spell
15 Maximize Spell
16 Minimize Spell
17 Extend Spell
18 Retract Spell
19 No effect
20 Roll twice on this table and combine the results. If either roll is a twenty, repeat this procedure. Unlike normal metamagic, like effects stack where applicable.


EDIT: This should probably be moved to Homebrew now.

[navar100]

I'd have a hrad time justifying that in-universe, as it would violate teh precedents I've set for how artifacts malfunction. It's a good idea, but not workable in this case.

navar100:

I may not be being clear. I am not making any new feats. The players will not ever be able to prepare spells in this manner. It is the result of a broken, erratic energy field around an artifact. The players cannot control it, and prepare and cast their spells as normal. Regardless of the effect of the artifact, fireball will only use a 3rd-level slot. Not 1st. Not 9th, weather it randomly becomes an enlarged maximized fireball or a reduced minimized one. The spell level adjustments are purely for determining if the spell fails because it was reduced below zeroth level. Is there anymore confusion on this matter?

This looks like you want Wild Magic from Complete Mage. There's also a 2E version in 2E's Tome of Magic.

[Gnoman]

If I wanted wild magic, I would use wild magic.