Dvati Duo-Martial Adepts

[Tokuhara]

My DM just said I can play a Dvati (Dragon Magazine Compendium), and that I can use a pseudo-gestalt rules. He said that while I am a gestalt character, my Dvati pair uses one half a piece (ie: Twin 1 uses the first half while Twin 2 uses the second). He also ruled that both sides of this pseudo-gestalt can PrC as if they were two separate characters, but still are gestalt

So, what martial adept duo should I use? The twins are different genders, with the male being stoic and disciplined while the female is emotional and rash. I plan on playing them like Alternate Timeline Androids #17 and #18, but as twin brother and sister. Maybe even a way to combo martial maneuvers to preform the Accel Dance combo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpcDpFKMAxw). All books in 3.x are available to me

[FMArthur]

So... just two separate characters, then? If you're not using Dvati restrictions or fluff, why play Dvati instead of, say, taking the Leadership feat?

[Tokuhara]

So... just two separate characters, then? If you're not using Dvati restrictions or fluff, why play Dvati instead of, say, taking the Leadership feat?

I am using the restrictions. They are one class (gestalt), but each twin emulates one half of the gestalt (not saying they can't pull a switcheroo with their styles or anything...) Plus, Leadership is banned, due to an incident that happened involving the BBEG and one PC's army of followers. It was messy and our DM flat banned it.

The plan is that they were trained by two masters to compliment each other in perfect unison. Not be two different people, but one unique fighting style

[The-Mage-King]

Well... each set of Dvati twins is identical, not fraternal, so...


Anyway, I'd say Swordsage and Warblade. Whatever they go up against, they'll have something to deal with it.

[Tokuhara]

Well... each set of Dvati twins is identical, not fraternal, so...


Anyway, I'd say Swordsage and Warblade. Whatever they go up against, they'll have something to deal with it.

They are both. One chromosome difference between them (X vs Y), but otherwise identical.

Swordsage//Warblade eh? I like it. Immensely

[The-Mage-King]

They are both. One chromosome difference between them (X vs Y), but otherwise identical.

...I mean that they are specifically the same gender as each other. As in, their rules text says it.

[Tokuhara]

...I mean that they are specifically the same gender as each other. As in, their rules text says it.

My DM said that "fraternal" dvati are an extraordinarily rare occurrence (Mine's the first one in 500 years, and signals a new golden age)

[Divide by Zero]

...I mean that they are specifically the same gender as each other. As in, their rules text says it.

Why can't he just ignore that bit? I can't see any mechanical issues with it, and as long as he's satisfied with the fluff, it should be fine.

For the record, though, the odds of two fraternal twins being identical except for the X/Y chromosome are staggeringly low.

[Tokuhara]

Why can't he just ignore that bit? I can't see any mechanical issues with it, and as long as he's satisfied with the fluff, it should be fine.

For the record, though, the odds of two fraternal twins being identical except for the X/Y chromosome are staggeringly low.

Precisely. Thanks Zero for defending a minor fluff refluff

[Quietus]

Schizophrenic Dvati?

Aren't they supposed to be "One person, two bodies"? How can the two bodies have such vastly different personalities? Or is this a "My DM says I'm a special snowflake" thing as well?

[Tokuhara]

Schizophrenic Dvati?

Aren't they supposed to be "One person, two bodies"? How can the two bodies have such vastly different personalities? Or is this a "My DM says I'm a special snowflake" thing as well?

They embody two halves of a singular personality. One half embodies the disciplined, stoic, rational, aka: Boring side while the other is passionate, rash, etc. Without the other, they are incomplete (and in the case of the passionate half, avoid certain death)

[The-Mage-King]

My DM said that "fraternal" dvati are an extraordinarily rare occurrence (Mine's the first one in 500 years, and signals a new golden age)

Ah. If you had said that, I wouldn't have argued the point. I had only the fluff of the race from Dragon Compendium to go by, so I assumed that that was what you're using.


Though, I do echo Quietus' sintement, now that I think of it...

[Quietus]

They embody two halves of a singular personality. One half embodies the disciplined, stoic, rational, aka: Boring side while the other is passionate, rash, etc. Without the other, they are incomplete (and in the case of the passionate half, avoid certain death)

Well, I wish you the best in your game. Frankly, that presentation is ridiculous to me, because it truly does feel like you're attempting to subvert what the Dvati really are - it feels to me like you're playing two characters that happen to be twins, not a Dvati pair. But hey, no such thing as badwrongfun, I guess.

[Divide by Zero]

Or is this a "My DM says I'm a special snowflake" thing as well?

In other words, pretty much every player character ever?

[Tokuhara]

Well, I wish you the best in your game. Frankly, that presentation is ridiculous to me, because it truly does feel like you're attempting to subvert what the Dvati really are - it feels to me like you're playing two characters that happen to be twins, not a Dvati pair. But hey, no such thing as badwrongfun, I guess.

My DM insisted that they have polar-opposite personalities

[kestrel404]

Personally, I rather like the idea. Yes, it's a bit of a fluff change (and possibly a minor rules change as well), but if you're already playing in a Gestalt game, what's the big deal with a minor change to a player race that's already on really shaky rules ground? (Not to say I don't like the dvati, but their crunch is a bit poorly thought-out)

I do like the Warblade/Swordsage combo as well, but prestige classing here might be a bit tricky - I'll give it some thought. A couple of strategic dips and the right prestige classes could really make this idea shine.

[Tokuhara]

Personally, I rather like the idea. Yes, it's a bit of a fluff change (and possibly a minor rules change as well), but if you're already playing in a Gestalt game, what's the big deal with a minor change to a player race that's already on really shaky rules ground? (Not to say I don't like the dvati, but their crunch is a bit poorly thought-out)

I do like the Warblade/Swordsage combo as well, but prestige classing here might be a bit tricky - I'll give it some thought. A couple of strategic dips and the right prestige classes could really make this idea shine.

Actually, I'm the only gestalt. My DM allowed it since Dvati are gimped ridiculously, so he let me be stronger as a balance to the rest of the party (one of which IIRC is a dragon)

[Quietus]

In other words, pretty much every player character ever?

Untrue. Just because a story examines a particular character doesn't mean that character is a special snowflake. They just happen to be who the camera is looking at this time. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence for this.


My DM insisted that they have polar-opposite personalities

*Shrugs* Then I have no advice to give.

[Talya]

It is possible for identical twins to manifest different sexual characteristics, although it involves the twins having a genetic disorder of some kind (like being XXY/Klinefelter's Syndrome.)

[Divide by Zero]

Untrue. Just because a story examines a particular character doesn't mean that character is a special snowflake. They just happen to be who the camera is looking at this time. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence for this.

That's not what I meant. Maybe it's just my experience, but most characters I've seen suffer from Drizzt Syndrome to an extent, probably because playing a standard member of a race isn't as interesting to those players.

[Zale]

That happens.

You just have to live with it. :smallannoyed:

[Tokuhara]

Even with them being gestalt, they are still gimped compared to the the rest of the party

[kestrel404]

That's not what I meant. Maybe it's just my experience, but most characters I've seen suffer from Drizzt Syndrome to an extent, probably because playing a standard member of a race isn't as interesting to those players.

I've found that there's a lot to say for playing 'characters' (as in strong personalities) rather than 'aberrations' (individuals who stretch the special snowflake idea to the breaking point). I've played my share of aberrations (not just in D&D, and generally not for optimization reasons), and I think that playing a strong personality, especially one that's a go-getter or goal-oriented so that the character helps to drive the story along, makes a world of difference in getting everyone in the game to have fun, GM included.

[Tokuhara]

Ok. can we un-derail this thread plz?

[FMArthur]

Maybe you could make one a standard tripper - a rugged island in battle with massive reach who keeps enemies on the floor - and the other being a super-mobile Tiger Claw DPS monster. His Jump DCs to use leaping strikes (there are like five) over prone foes will be hilariously low, and their ACs will always be down -4 for it (leaving them particularly open to a shredding via two-weapon fighting and more strikes).

Crusader + Warblade. Straight-classed.

Wait... hold on. Your Dvati being effectively two characters is not a balancer between yourself and other gestalt characters, but with non-gestalt party members? Your DM is setting himself up for this 'leadership incident' all over again. You might be better off not optimizing this so that your characters don't get banned after they dominate in battle.

It sounds like your DM doesn't know what's wrong with Dvati. The problems with Dvati are that they make a disgustingly powerful melee character on offense and are so insanely poor on defense that they either destroy the opposition easily or die. His/her houserules on Dvati don't fix them in any way. :smallconfused:

[Tokuhara]

Maybe you could make one a standard tripper - a rugged island in battle with massive reach who keeps enemies on the floor - and the other being a super-mobile Tiger Claw DPS monster. His Jump DCs to use leaping strikes (there are like five) over prone foes will be hilariously low, and their ACs will always be down -4 for it (leaving them particularly open to a shredding via two-weapon fighting and more strikes).

Crusader + Warblade. Straight-classed.

Wait... hold on. Your Dvati being effectively two characters is not a balancer between yourself and other gestalt characters, but with non-gestalt party members? Your DM is setting himself up for this 'leadership incident' all over again. You might be better off not optimizing this so that your characters don't get banned after they dominate in battle.

It sounds like your DM doesn't know what's wrong with Dvati. The problems with Dvati are that they make a disgustingly powerful melee character on offense and are so insanely poor on defense that they either destroy the opposition easily or die. His/her houserules on Dvati don't fix them in any way. :smallconfused:

Here's the thing: I planned on the male half setting up the female half for a crucial finishing-type blow, not a "Trip & Tear" duo (although it is cool overall)

[Typewriter]

A couple questions...

How are you doing stats/saves/BAB? Normally with gestalt it would be "the best of the two" but if you're making each body a separate class, are you actually making them separate, or are you just making them behave separately?

Are you going to have the standard Dvati limitation of 1 set of actions split between two bodies, or are you going with OP "I have two full round actions".

???

[Tokuhara]

A couple questions...

How are you doing stats/saves/BAB? Normally with gestalt it would be "the best of the two" but if you're making each body a separate class, are you actually making them separate, or are you just making them behave separately?

Are you going to have the standard Dvati limitation of 1 set of actions split between two bodies, or are you going with OP "I have two full round actions".

???

Act separately and two full round actions. That's straight from the DM's mouth

[FMArthur]

A couple questions...

How are you doing stats/saves/BAB? Normally with gestalt it would be "the best of the two" but if you're making each body a separate class, are you actually making them separate, or are you just making them behave separately?

Are you going to have the standard Dvati limitation of 1 set of actions split between two bodies, or are you going with OP "I have two full round actions".

???

That's not a "standard" limitation, it's designer 'errata' that travels via hearsay alone - and doesn't fix them. They either blow all other non-spellcaster options out of the water, including all mundane classes, martial adepts, and spellcasters-not-called-spellcasters like Warlocks, Psions, and anything else that doesn't specifically cast spells - that's the default option - or they suck in spectacular fashion, having twice the vulnerability, about 2/3 normal hit points, and nothing to show for it, and are incapable of even escaping battle - that's the pseudo-errata you refer to. Dvati are a design disaster and ruinous to gameplay at a fundamental level.

[Tokuhara]

That's not a "standard" limitation, it's designer 'errata' that travels via hearsay alone - and doesn't fix them. They either blow all other non-spellcaster options out of the water, including all mundane classes, martial adepts, and spellcasters-not-called-spellcasters like Warlocks, Psions, and anything else that doesn't specifically cast spells - that's the default option - or they suck in spectacular fashion, having twice the vulnerability, about 2/3 normal hit points, and nothing to show for it, and are incapable of even escaping battle - that's the pseudo-errata you refer to. Dvati are a design disaster and ruinous to gameplay at a fundamental level.

My DM is sticking with the default option

[Tokuhara]

I really need help with "pseudo-optimization"

[kestrel404]

OK, here's what I'd recommend:
For the Male side, go with:
Warblade 7/Master of the 9 5/Warblade +8
You'll need to use pretty much all of your feats before 9th (including the warblade bonus feat) to get into Master of the 9, but it's worth it.

On the female side:
Unarmed Swordsage 5/Shadow Sun Ninja 10/Unarmed Swordsage +5

You end up with +18 BAB, d12 HD for most levels (very important for dvati), either 6 or 4+int skills per level, nearly full Monk unarmed progression, partial Monk AC progression (while wearing light armor) and more than enough maneuvers to always have a trick handy.

For attributes, if you've got point-buy, then go with 14's in everything except Charisma (yes, you're quire MAD, but maneuvers will let you reduce any dependencies). If they're rolled, then priority should be:
Strength/Con/Int or Wis/Wis or Int/Dex/Cha

Feats will take care of themselves until you hit 9th level, and by then you should know what you need most.

Also, you'll note that I've made it so that you're only getting 15 total levels of prestige class between both sides. If the GM decides that he doesn't want you prestige classing on both sides, the build works just as well if you do Warblade 15/Master of the 9 5 - you just end up getting a lot more high-level maneuvers instead of a lot of mid-level maneuvers.

[Tokuhara]

OK, here's what I'd recommend:
For the Male side, go with:
Warblade 7/Master of the 9 5/Warblade +8
You'll need to use pretty much all of your feats before 9th (including the warblade bonus feat) to get into Master of the 9, but it's worth it.

On the female side:
Unarmed Swordsage 5/Shadow Sun Ninja 10/Unarmed Swordsage +5

You end up with +18 BAB, d12 HD for most levels (very important for dvati), either 6 or 4+int skills per level, nearly full Monk unarmed progression, partial Monk AC progression (while wearing light armor) and more than enough maneuvers to always have a trick handy.

For attributes, if you've got point-buy, then go with 14's in everything except Charisma (yes, you're quire MAD, but maneuvers will let you reduce any dependencies). If they're rolled, then priority should be:
Strength/Con/Int or Wis/Wis or Int/Dex/Cha

Feats will take care of themselves until you hit 9th level, and by then you should know what you need most.

Also, you'll note that I've made it so that you're only getting 15 total levels of prestige class between both sides. If the GM decides that he doesn't want you prestige classing on both sides, the build works just as well if you do Warblade 15/Master of the 9 5 - you just end up getting a lot more high-level maneuvers instead of a lot of mid-level maneuvers.

You sir are brilliant...

What styles should I focus on?

[kestrel404]

Well, Shadow Sun Ninja is obviously a Setting Sun/Shadow Hand focused prestige class, and those are always good ones for a swordsage to focus on. A few dips into Desert wind would also be a good idea (burning blade is pretty much always nice to have avalable if only to deal some fire damage). And considdering your race, taking Island of Blades as your first stance is a no-brainer.

Since SS & SH are all about disabling & battlefield control, on the Warblade side I suggest stocking up on the heavy-hitting and defensive abilities. White raven's group-buffs are also a sweet deal, since you get double-benefits out of some of them (tactics of the wolf, it's an un-named bonus and therefore stacks with itself if both twins use it!). So, for Warblade, i'd go with Diamond Mind, Iron Heart and a handful of White Raven.

Meanwhile, there are a few must-haves to grab on the way. Stone Dragon Lockpick (Mountain Hammer), Pouncing Charge, and since you'll be a Master of the 9 when it becomes available, Thicket of Blades (which requires 1 devoted spirit maneuver, so also Shield Counter). Also, if you take a 3rd Devoted Spirit maneuver (either while a Mot9 or else later via a feat), and remember that stances count (Aura of Chaos?), then with your 18th level feat you can take Martial Study(Strike of Righteous Vitality) as a WARBLADE maneuver and become the single most effective in-combat healer EVER.

[Amphetryon]

You sir are brilliant...

What styles should I focus on?

If you're following Kestrel's build advice, it looks like you'd be best served focusing the male side primarily on Diamond Mind, and the female side primarily on Shadow Hand, as those styles are particularly well served by the offered builds. Naturally, the Warblade still benefits mightily from White Raven shenanigans and IHS.

EDIT: swordsaged.

[Darrin]

OK, here's what I'd recommend:
For the Male side, go with:
Warblade 7/Master of the 9 5/Warblade +8
You'll need to use pretty much all of your feats before 9th (including the warblade bonus feat) to get into Master of the 9, but it's worth it.


Not so much... a Warblade needs to spend 6 feats to get into Mo9, half of which are only marginally useful. If you absolutely have to get a maneuver/stance from another discipline, it's usually a lot easier to pick up what you need via Martial Study/Stance. Mo9 is extremely tempting, but it's a bit of a trap... Warblade 20 might wind up being a stronger build.

Actually, Crusader might work better with Dvati than Warblade. Steely Resolve and the healing strikes/stances helps offset the divided HPs. The Crusader would be more teamwork-focused, a selfless and self-sacrificing battlefield tactician in the mold of a Platonic philosopher-king.



On the female side:
Unarmed Swordsage 5/Shadow Sun Ninja 10/Unarmed Swordsage +5


Shadow Sun Ninja has always annoyed me... it *sounds* very much like it would be completely awesome, but mechanically it's a mess. Without any monk levels, it does absolutely nothing to improve your unarmed strikes. All it does is give you the AC bonus of a monk... which you already have as an unarmed swordsage (although now you get it when not wearing any armor). It also slows down your maneuver progression, can only get maneuvers from the Setting Sun or Shadow Hand disciplines, doesn't allow maneuver swapping, and if you get a little overzealous with the "inappropriate touching", can turn you into an evil bloodsucking NPC vampire.

Again, I think straight Swordsage 20 would be a much stronger build. This one fights with a more seat-of-the-pants, flashy/flamboyant selfish opportunist style, working as a team when it suits her but more prone to "going rogue" and striking out on her own, sometimes clashing with her brother that being unpredictable and surprising your opponent with the unexpected gets better results than that "minimize risk, slow and steady wins the race" garbage her brother is always lecturing her about.


What styles should I focus on?

Crusader/Warblade: Lots of White Raven. Instead of taking the spotlight, make the whole team shine and you'll pwn the entire theatre. He's the "Boy Scout/Superman" in the JLA: lead by example, don't showboat, stand back and let Aquaman do his stupid "talk with fishes" thing. Mix in a couple Stone Dragon strikes for taking out "hard targets".

Swordsage: Desert Wind for boosts, Diamond Mind for strikes/saves, Setting Sun for counters/throws, Shadow Hand for stances/deception/concealment/shadow jump, Tiger Claw for movement/crazy mongoose windmill fleshrip whoopass. A little bit of everything. She's "Batman" in the JLA: nice big utility belt, a strike/boost/counter for every occasion, and why yes she *did* bring razzafrackin' Shark Repellent.

[Tokuhara]

So:

Ren (Male): White Raven with dips into Iron Heart and Stone Dragon

Sha (Female): Shadow Hand with Dips into Setting Sun

[kestrel404]

Not so much... a Warblade needs to spend 6 feats to get into Mo9, half of which are only marginally useful.

Perhaps, but a Warblade//Unarmed Swordsage only needs 4 - Adaptive style (If you're a warblade//swordsage gestalt, this is your 1st level feat anyway), Improved Initiative (always useful, especially once you get assassin's stance), Blind-fight (not a bad feat, just not awesome) and Desert Wind Dodge (Same). You'll note that I pointed out a 1st level desert wind maneuver to pick up?

He's not making 2 characters, he's making a Gestalt character.

Also:

To create a monklike character with
a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the
swordsage the monk’s unarmed strike progression and
remove his light armor profi ciency

Any GM that allows unarmed swordsage in the first place is going to let the Shadow Sun Ninja's unarmed damage progression stack with this.

[Tokuhara]

Perhaps, but a Warblade//Unarmed Swordsage only needs 4 - Adaptive style (If you're a warblade//swordsage gestalt, this is your 1st level feat anyway), Improved Initiative (always useful, especially once you get assassin's stance), Blind-fight (not a bad feat, just not awesome) and Desert Wind Dodge (Same). You'll note that I pointed out a 1st level desert wind maneuver to pick up?

He's not making 2 characters, he's making a Gestalt character.

Also:


Any GM that allows unarmed swordsage in the first place is going to let the Shadow Sun Ninja's unarmed damage progression stack with this.

My major issue is that while excellent, it lacks the original intent: Androids 17 & 18 were my inspiration to play Dvati in the first place

[kestrel404]

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the characters to help on that. Is there a specific fighting style you want to emulate? Personality archetypes you want to adhere to? A bit more detail would help.

[Tokuhara]

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the characters to help on that. Is there a specific fighting style you want to emulate? Personality archetypes you want to adhere to? A bit more detail would help.

Android 17 (http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Android_17)

Android 18 (http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Android_18)