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Kish
2011-06-01, 01:33 PM
Knock yourselves out, but don't try to use Roy calling Vaarsuvius "V-Man" as a trump card.

Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4918) to previous version.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-01, 01:34 PM
Knock yourselves out, but don't try to use Roy calling Vaarsuvius "V-Man" as a trump card.

Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4918) to previous version.

But Roy called Vaarsuvius V-Man...what's left to discuss?

MoonCat
2011-06-01, 01:46 PM
But Roy called Vaarsuvius V-Man...what's left to discuss?

Aha! Sarcasm! I know you're using sarcasm! Please be using sarcasm.

Xapi
2011-06-01, 01:53 PM
Aha! Sarcasm! I know you're using sarcasm! Please be using sarcasm.

It's either that or trolling.

-

What I don't get is why this thread even continues after the fact that Rich has stated that he's been playing with us from as far back as the V-man strip.

Anything from the V-man on is ment for us to be baffled about it and argue like crazies, NOT to reveal his gender.

So if nothing from BEFORE the V-man strip points clearly one way or another. there's really not much to discuss here.

Kish
2011-06-01, 01:58 PM
There wasn't really much to debate from the moment "I will never reveal the truth! Keep in mind that what a character says only reflects what that character thinks" went into the FAQ. And yet, people have, anyway.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-01, 01:59 PM
It's either that or trolling.

You can get warned for calling someone a troll here, FYI.



So if nothing from BEFORE the V-man strip points clearly one way or another. there's really not much to discuss here.

Exactly. This is ONLY for the amusement of Rich, to dance like his puppets. (I guess it also exists to keep new people from thinking they're the only ones to have an idea about V.)

According to Rich (if you take his story at face value): a friend didn't know what sex V was from the very first strip, and he later went to his gaming group to find out what people thought, and when they voted female, he thought it would be funny to have a character call V male, and keep the confusion going.

The lamest joke in the entire strip which has been going on forever, and at best it's just Rich toying with the readers.

And you guys keep coming back for more.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-01, 02:02 PM
There wasn't really much to debate from the moment "I will never reveal the truth! Keep in mind that what a character says only reflects what that character thinks" went into the FAQ. And yet, people have, anyway.

No, there was debate because Rich hadn't publicly stated anything else about when that joke came into being, but had said that V originally had a specific choice for which sex he was.

Since we knew that Rich had made that choice, it was a matter of determining when the confusion arose, and looking prior to that to see if there was a clue. His most recent story, however, said that the very first strip was the confusion, so there is no prior point to look at.

But that happened recently.

Xapi
2011-06-01, 02:11 PM
You can get warned for calling someone a troll here, FYI.


Thanks for the warning. Then again, I didn't.


According to Rich (if you take his story at face value): a friend didn't know what sex V was from the very first strip, and he later went to another forum to find out what people thought, and when they voted female, he thought it would be funny to have a character call V male, and keep the confusion going.


Actually, the people who voted female where his gaming group.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-01, 02:17 PM
Thanks for the warning. Then again, I didn't.

You didn't...yet. It can take days.

However, I certainly don't take offense to it.



Actually, the people who voted female where his gaming group.

There goes my memory. Thanks, I'll edit it.

ThePhantasm
2011-06-01, 03:09 PM
Oh boy, a new V Gender thread! And the first few posts are already from folks who want to let everyone know how pointless the debate is, but are more than happy to post in the thread anyways! :smallwink: Might as well just stick a sign in the metaphorical grass that says "All ye who post in this thread are losers." :smalltongue:

The peculiarity of the thread opening posts aside, I'll start off some real discussion by saying I perceive V to be female. I don't have concrete evidence to back this up. However, there are a number of indicators.

1) V's magic is pink. Pink is usually identified as a feminine color. This doesn't mean pink can't be associated with a guy, but it is more likely to be associated with a female.

2) V seems to me, especially in the early strips, to be the Velma to Haley's Daphne. Haley is more of a dumb blonde in the early strips ("oops, my top fell off, tee hee!"), and V is her usual intellectual self. Note that I'm not saying at all that Rich lifted the characters from Scooby Doo or that there is any reference there at all. I'm just using this as an analogy for how their relationship feels in the early strips.

3) V's presence brings more of a gender balance to the Order if she is considered female. I know that there is a potential joke here about there only being one female in the Order because usually there is usually never more than one female D&D player in a game. I'm not sure, however, that Rich had thought through the jokes that carefully in the early days of the strip. Whereas the jokes today can be much more subtle in the OOTS, Rich was himself a young writer in the early days and his jokes were much more obvious. I think that if I had been in his shoes, I probably would have had V be a female just because it would feel like more of a natural gender balance on the team.

I probably have a few more reasons but those are the 3 I can think of off the top of my head.

Gift Jeraff
2011-06-01, 05:51 PM
This thought just occurred to me: Darth Vaarsuvius had a bunch of stereotypical signs of being Evil. Glowing eyes, pale skin, fangs, dark robes, black speech balloons, long and messy hair...But then I realized, since when is getting long and messy hair a stereotypical sign of evil females? Only when it covers their eyes to create the "creepy girl" image, as far as I'm aware.

veti
2011-06-01, 06:13 PM
3) V's presence brings more of a gender balance to the Order if she is considered female. I know that there is a potential joke here about there only being one female in the Order because usually there is usually never more than one female D&D player in a game. I'm not sure, however, that Rich had thought through the jokes that carefully in the early days of the strip. Whereas the jokes today can be much more subtle in the OOTS, Rich was himself a young writer in the early days and his jokes were much more obvious. I think that if I had been in his shoes, I probably would have had V be a female just because it would feel like more of a natural gender balance on the team.

I wholeheartedly endorse this argument.

It's true that D&D groups seldom have more than one female player, but there's usually at least a few players who are happy to play characters of the opposite sex, so that means nothing. (Heck, one campaign I played in had an all-female ninja clan, played by five males and one female.)

Female is the stereotypical gender for a D&D wizard (as defined by the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm)), and the party at that point is nothing if not stereotypical. And because the SRD is so careful to balance genders between class descriptions, that means the group's gender gets balanced too - which is probably just what the SRD's editors had in mind when they made that decision.

Edit:
But then I realized, since when is getting long and messy hair a stereotypical sign of evil females? Only when it covers their eyes to create the "creepy girl" image, as far as I'm aware.

Not a Buffy fan, then? Google "Wicked Willow".

Holy_Knight
2011-06-01, 06:14 PM
I guess I'll be repeating myself a little bit from the last thread, but oh well, here goes.

V is male.

We know that he was originally intended to have a definite gender, and male simply fits the evidence better.

1) OoTS, especially in the early days, is a paordy of D&D sterotypes. Having exactly 1 female in the group is a well-known stereotype, while having mutiple females is not at all stereotypical. Therefore, male is way more likely. (Yes, I know the Phantasm's post above mine referenced this too.)

2) V's body shape is not female, especially for an elf. Not only does he have no curves, he's not particularly slender, either. Elves are known for their slight builds, and female elves even more so. Additionally, a stereotype is that male elves appear feminine by human standards. As such, if V really were female, he would appear more feminine than he does. It's not weird for a male elf to look somewhat feminine; it is weird for a female elf to look somewhat masculine.

3) Intellectual arrogance and pompous erudition are traditionally masculine traits, not feminine ones.

4) The Giant has said that originally Roy was intended to be the party wizard, and Vaarsuvius was added when he decided he didn't want Roy in that role. That means that when the Giant was conceiving his comic, his ideas were of a male party wizard. (And, again, of having exactly 1 female in the party.) In replacing him, it's likely that he did so with another male wizard.

There are other points, but those are some of the main ones.

Gift Jeraff
2011-06-01, 06:22 PM
Not a Buffy fan, then? Google "Wicked Willow".
Actually, I used to be a Buffy & Angel fan back in the day. But from what Google and my memory show me, her hair does not appear significantly longer nor particularly messy. I could be wrong, though.

Flame of Anor
2011-06-01, 10:04 PM
Perhaps V and Inkyrius are actually members of a non-gendered elf subrace.

MoonCat
2011-06-01, 10:13 PM
Perhaps V and Inkyrius are actually members of a non-gendered elf subrace.

I'm pretty sure Inkyrius is male. The only female I've ever seen in comic with a square bottom was Miko, and that was because of her armor. I doubt the baker of Ivyleaf wears armor while caring for his family and muffins.

Fitzclowningham
2011-06-01, 10:18 PM
I think it's just that Rich likes having a perfectly androgynous character to write jokes for. It's a unique perspective and a challenge I think he relishes.

Flame of Anor
2011-06-02, 12:48 AM
I'm pretty sure Inkyrius is male.

Well, yeah, me too, but what is this thread for if not pointless and unfounded speculation? :smallbiggrin:

ThePhantasm
2011-06-02, 02:42 AM
I'm pretty sure Inkyrius is male. The only female I've ever seen in comic with a square bottom was Miko, and that was because of her armor. I doubt the baker of Ivyleaf wears armor while caring for his family and muffins.

Furthermore, weren't Ink's eyes found to be on the male-level? (i.e. female eyes are usually lower - V's are ambiguously in between, but Ink's were male height)

teratorn
2011-06-02, 08:25 AM
You can get warned for calling someone a troll here, FYI.

You can get warned for rules-lawyering... wait, so could I

I think this thread first post should acknowledge the first guy to remark on V's gender

On 11-03-2003, 05:02 PM Bogotter posted:


Question though.....I've been thinking this whole time that Vaarsuvius was a female.....but in this last strip he/she was called V-man. *So Vaarsuvius is a guy?

Kish
2011-06-02, 08:51 AM
That wasn't the first person to remark on Vaarsuvius' gender, remember?

teratorn
2011-06-02, 09:12 AM
That wasn't the first person to remark on Vaarsuvius' gender, remember?

Bogotter is generally credited as being the first guy to post about it.

ScottishDragon
2011-06-02, 09:17 AM
2) V's body shape is not female, especially for an elf. Not only does he have no curves, he's not particularly slender, either. Elves are known for their slight builds, and female elves even more so. Additionally, a stereotype is that male elves appear feminine by human standards. As such, if V really were female, he would appear more feminine than he does. It's not weird for a male elf to look somewhat feminine; it is weird for a female elf to look somewhat masculine.

All I gotta say...big bulky robes.

MoonCat
2011-06-02, 09:22 AM
Well, yeah, me too, but what is this thread for if not pointless and unfounded speculation? :smallbiggrin:

About V. I think we should keep out unfounded pointless speculation to V, or our brains will explode. :smallsmile:


Furthermore, weren't Ink's eyes found to be on the male-level? (i.e. female eyes are usually lower - V's are ambiguously in between, but Ink's were male height)

Wait, The Giant even kept V's eyes ambiguous? :smalleek: Wow.

So Kyrie seems definitely male, which is interesting, because many of his actions seemed rather female to me, even though I knew he was male. Fascinating.

ThePhantasm
2011-06-02, 09:26 AM
Wait, The Giant even kept V's eyes ambiguous? :smalleek: Wow.


Yep. When I get a moment I'll try to dig up the thread where it all was analyzed by the forum, if the thread still exists.

teratorn
2011-06-02, 09:42 AM
All I gotta say...big bulky robes.

We have same depictions of non-robed V:

http://www.giantitp.com/Images/tshirtbanner.gif

and strip #186 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html).

Altaria87
2011-06-02, 09:46 AM
While I have no real argument behind it, my input is that V is male. My only reason for this is the name 'Vaarsuvius', though there are probably exceptions, 'ius' at the end of a name sounds very male to me.

ThePhantasm
2011-06-02, 09:56 AM
One place where the eyes were discussed: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24612&postcount=82

Note that it is an old thread and whatever image was there as proof is now gone.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-02, 11:28 AM
You can get warned for rules-lawyering... wait, so could I

Not rules lawyering, buddy. Just letting him know in case he didn't, and also publicly stating that I don't care, in case a mod thought that he hurt my feelings.

ThePhantasm
2011-06-02, 12:22 PM
Not rules lawyering, buddy. Just letting him know in case he didn't, and also publicly stating that I don't care, in case a mod thought that he hurt my feelings.

I thought you said you were done posting in this thread (in part IV)? :smalltongue:

Also, your personal discussions, in your own words (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11106546&postcount=1499) in part IV, should really be taken up in PM. :smallwink:

Can we cut out all this back and forth about rules and such now? Eh? :smallsmile:

CaptainIreland
2011-06-02, 01:08 PM
I thought you said you were done posting in this thread (in part IV)? :smalltongue:

Also, your personal discussions, in your own words (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11106546&postcount=1499) in part IV, should really be taken up in PM. :smallwink:

Can we cut out all this back and forth about rules and such now? Eh? :smallsmile:

I was done in Part IV. This is a new thread.

And it is not my thread or my experiment, so I don't mind derailing Kish's thread.

ThePhantasm
2011-06-02, 02:30 PM
I was done in Part IV. This is a new thread.

And it is not my thread or my experiment, so I don't mind derailing Kish's thread.

People don't own threads because they have the first post. This is a thread in a long continuum of threads meant to be viewed as basically one long discussion. The only reason it is a new thread is because the old one hit 50 pages. That is literally the only difference between the two.

If you are going to post in the thread, howsabout giving us your reasoning for thinking that V is a male?

Kish
2011-06-02, 02:42 PM
Bogotter is generally credited as being the first guy to post about it.

That wasn't the first person to remark on Vaarsuvius' gender, remember? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11094344&postcount=58)

If by "remark on" you meant "post on this board and only on this board," well, sorry, but I disagree. Treating that post as though it was the first time someone questioned Vaarsuvius' gender is exactly what we shouldn't do.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-02, 02:49 PM
People don't own threads because they have the first post.

Ok, calm down, buddy. The point is, this thread isn't part of my experiment, and thus, I have no desire to tell anyone to take a conversation to PM. However, I will ask that you stop trying to provoke whatever response you're looking for from me, because I doubt you'll get it. Any further problems from you will be reported.



If you are going to post in the thread, howsabout giving us your reasoning for thinking that V is a male?

Until you play nice...no, I have no desire to do that.

ThePhantasm
2011-06-02, 03:38 PM
Ok, calm down, buddy. The point is, this thread isn't part of my experiment, and thus, I have no desire to tell anyone to take a conversation to PM. However, I will ask that you stop trying to provoke whatever response you're looking for from me, because I doubt you'll get it. Any further problems from you will be reported.

I'm perfectly calm... and I'm not sure why you a threatening me with a report? :smallconfused: I haven't said anything reportable.

How am I not playing nice? Do you think I'm trying to set up a trap or something? "Provoke a response"? I'm not looking for any particular response from you. The reason I asked for your opinion was because you said you wanted to keep posting in this thread, so I was curious as to what you were planning to say.

You act like I'm attacking you, but I haven't been remotely hostile. I don't have a bone to pick with you, I genuinely want to know what your thoughts are, just like I was genuinely curious about what your "experiment" was supposed to be.

EDIT: I apologize if I offended you in some way, but I don't see how I've said anything remotely offensive. I don't have a diabolical plan to trap you in your response. I'm a clever guy, but not that clever - nor that mean-spirited.

Kato
2011-06-03, 11:32 AM
EDIT: I apologize if I offended you in some way, but I don't see how I've said anything remotely offensive. I don't have a diabolical plan to trap you in your response. I'm a clever guy, but not that clever - nor that mean-spirited.

Pfff, don't listen to him. He's evil incarnate. Just look at his avatar! He's clearly up to something!
(No, really, I'm on your side, Phantasm. Can't see you doing anything wrong)

I guess I can see why CaptainIreland started his threat to gather some not compromised opinions and this would be harer in such a long running threat but... well, it's nobody's fault (maybe except for the moderator but there's no way I'll argue with him).


Just for the record... I was convinced V was female for a LONG time. Mostly due to the party male/female ratio, and Haley's interaction with hir. Now... dunno. I'd still say female was the originally intended gender but I won't argue over it for a million bucks.

ThePhantasm
2011-06-03, 11:43 AM
Pfff, don't listen to him. He's evil incarnate. Just look at his avatar! He's clearly up to something!
(No, really, I'm on your side, Phantasm. Can't see you doing anything wrong)


Lol, I actually do wonder sometimes if my avatar intimidates people . . . The whole shaking-the-fist thing might make my posts seem angrier than they are! It is pretty awesome, Bradakhan did a great job making it. :smallcool:


Just for the record... I was convinced V was female for a LONG time. Mostly due to the party male/female ratio, and Haley's interaction with hir. Now... dunno. I'd still say female was the originally intended gender but I won't argue over it for a million bucks.

I can definitely see both sides. The V-is-male crowd as some pretty persuasive arguments, but it just seems right to me for V to be a her rather than a him, mostly for the party ratio stuff, the stuff I raised earlier in the thread, and maybe also because I knew a girl once who was a lot like V in personality. I'm not applying the bad aspects of V's personality to girls, I'm just thinking that for some reason a lot of the things she does seem more girl-like to me... but I'm a guy and I might be totally wrong.

MoonCat
2011-06-03, 11:45 AM
Lol, I actually do wonder sometimes if my avatar intimidates people . . . The whole shaking-the-fist thing might make my posts seem angrier than they are! It is pretty awesome, Bradakhan did a great job making it. :smallcool:

Oh hey, he is shaking his fist! I thought that was part of his staff sticking out from under his cloak thing.

Kish
2011-06-03, 12:19 PM
Pretty sure the character depicted in ThePhantasm's avatar is a she, actually.

Appropriate enough for this thread.

ThePhantasm
2011-06-03, 12:25 PM
Pretty sure the character depicted in ThePhantasm's avatar is a she, actually.

Appropriate enough for this thread.

That's true!

I bet if we had Batman here he could figure out V's gender with his crazy detective skills.

Flame of Anor
2011-06-03, 02:03 PM
We have same depictions of non-robed V:

http://www.giantitp.com/Images/tshirtbanner.gif

and strip #186 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html).

Those show that V has a fairly male-ish body type, but, since a physically not very feminine woman looks much more like a skinny man than a physically not very masculine man looks like a woman, it really doesn't tell us anything.


Oh hey, he is shaking his fist! I thought that was part of his staff sticking out from under his cloak thing.

Wow, I did too!

ThePhantasm
2011-06-03, 02:09 PM
Those show that V has a fairly male-ish body type, but, since a physically not very feminine woman looks much more like a skinny man than a physically not very masculine man looks like a woman, it really doesn't tell us anything.

She's certainly not as endowed as Haley... :smalleek: :smallwink:


Wow, I did too!

Huh, that's interesting... I'm pretty sure that is how OOTS characters make a fist though. But I can see how it might look like a staff top, I guess. Of course, this character never uses a staff.

Flame of Anor
2011-06-03, 02:13 PM
Huh, that's interesting... I'm pretty sure that is how OOTS characters make a fist though. But I can see how it might look like a staff top, I guess. Of course, this character never uses a staff.

It's because your avatar is so dark no one can see anything but the silhouette without squinting. And the fists in the comic don't usually have large gauntlets behind them, and usually occur when someone is in an "action punching" pose, so the silhouette doesn't say "fist".

ThePhantasm
2011-06-03, 02:16 PM
It's because your avatar is so dark no one can see anything but the silhouette without squinting. And the fists in the comic don't usually have large gauntlets behind them, and usually occur when someone is in an "action punching" pose, so the silhouette doesn't say "fist".

Ah well, what the hey. Its a dark colored character, doesn't bother me that the fist is perceived as a staff, at least, not at the moment. I just had no idea so many people were seeing it that way... found it amusing.

MoonCat
2011-06-03, 04:31 PM
She's certainly not as endowed as Haley... :smalleek: :smallwink:

What a revelation! I never noticed!

Peanut Gallery
2011-06-03, 11:02 PM
Names ending in -ius are traditionally male.

I also find it straining incredibility that someone intending to draw a female character would fail to give her breasts.

Heck, even the female chimera has breasts, and that makes no sense anatomically.

Hardly matters in any case. Him being male or female wouldn't change his character at all, and I like that. I dare say Elan comes off as fairly gender-neutral as well. Give him an ambiguous hair cut, and he could fill the role of ditzy blonde party girl. Which would frankly make the Elan/Haley romance way more interesting (atleast to me). :smallwink:

weeping eagle
2011-06-03, 11:28 PM
V's genitalia exist in both male and female state until directly observed.

Kish
2011-06-04, 07:17 AM
Heck, even the female chimera has breasts, and that makes no sense anatomically.
You mean "even the silly human bard's concept of a female chimera has breasts"? Since we haven't seen an actual female chimera.

...and again, names ending in -ius are traditionally male in Latin, a language which Vaarsuvius can't be in.

As for the lack of obvious breasts, you realize that was used as an argument for why "the blue boy" was obviously male when someone (might have been me, actually) pointed out we didn't know "his" sex?

("The blue boy" turned out to be named Miko.)

Themrys
2011-06-04, 08:13 AM
What a revelation! I never noticed!

Well, she did say that she had her own pair, but not as big ones as Haley has...:smallbiggrin:

However, is it not commonly assumed that men have crystal balls, too?


V's body form (as observed after s/he was turned back from the lizard form) suggests s/he is male.
However, it could be that female elves look rather male. Remember: Anorectic women lose the female body form. And elves are quite thin in many fantasy worlds...

ThePhantasm
2011-06-04, 08:23 AM
However, it could be that female elves look rather male. Remember: Anorectic women lose the female body form. And elves are quite thin in many fantasy worlds...

Lirian was quite clearly female...

Kish
2011-06-04, 08:40 AM
It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that Lirian is really fat by elven standards.

--I mean, I think this is silly. But I also think "look, no obvious breasts, so Vaarsuvius must have been male to begin with!" is silly.

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-04, 09:25 AM
Vaarsuvius is a High Elf. Lirian could be a Wood Elf. Wood Elves could have greater sexual dimorphism than High Elves.

FujinAkari
2011-06-04, 09:54 AM
It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that Lirian is really fat by elven standards.

--I mean, I think this is silly. But I also think "look, no obvious breasts, so Vaarsuvius must have been male to begin with!" is silly.

We did see a few other elves in SoD that looked female, although now that I'm thinking about it I don't think we've -ever- seen any outside of Lirian's immediate company, so the wood elf explaination could actually be plausible.

Though, personally, I'm of the belief that "Vaarsuvius is wearing robes" :P

CaptainIreland
2011-06-04, 12:05 PM
V's name ends in -ius, and that is a masculine ending, so he's most likely male.

Peanut Gallery
2011-06-04, 12:38 PM
As for the lack of obvious breasts, you realize that was used as an argument for why "the blue boy" was obviously male when someone (might have been me, actually) pointed out we didn't know "his" sex?

("The blue boy" turned out to be named Miko.)

Nope didn't realize that. That would have been a silly argument to use on Miko though. She has a huge billowy cloak that obscures her entire body except a hip from time to time. From what we saw of the baleful polymorph incident that robe, baring underclothes, is the only layer he's wearing. Actually that raises a question. Do elves traditionally go commando? He's obviously not wearing a bra, and mention of underwear is either overlooked or off camera.

137beth
2011-06-04, 02:26 PM
Nope didn't realize that. That would have been a silly argument to use on Miko though. She has a huge billowy cloak that obscures her entire body except a hip from time to time. From what we saw of the baleful polymorph incident that robe, baring underclothes, is the only layer he's wearing. Actually that raises a question. Do elves traditionally go commando? He's obviously not wearing a bra, and mention of underwear is either overlooked or off camera.

V's mate doesn't have obvious sexual-specific organs showing either.

Themrys
2011-06-04, 05:57 PM
From what we saw of the baleful polymorph incident that robe, baring underclothes, is the only layer he's wearing. Actually that raises a question. Do elves traditionally go commando? He's obviously not wearing a bra, and mention of underwear is either overlooked or off camera.

That s/he doesn't wear a bra doesn't mean anything - a woman with flat breasts obviously doesn't need a bra and wouldn't wear one. If V is female, I doubt s/he'd wear a bra to feel more feminine.

And I guess underwear is just kept off camera. V has to wear underpants, otherwise, Belkar would have found out hir sex pretty quickly. :smallwink:

Doorhandle
2011-06-04, 06:27 PM
I calls shenanigans on Themrys' statment. Unless the underwear was really modest, you would probably still be able to tell the gender of the wearer.

As for my belief on weather or not V is a girl, i like to think so but I have no real evidence ether way.

Uiriamu
2011-06-04, 06:39 PM
Varsuvius is..........a FEMALE

CaptainIreland
2011-06-05, 03:34 AM
V is male. Nothing else makes sense.

Lord.Sorasen
2011-06-05, 04:12 AM
I always fealt female. if only because the Charlie's Angels parody they did for a bit featured her, and she roomed with Haley and had her own "pair". I always figured V wore robes and if she's thin behind said robes there'd be no real notable anything.

I am reading that Roy would be party wizard or what have you, but then a male/female ratio of 4/1 seems a lot better than 5/1. I forget who, but someone in a bar asked her why men were terrible, and it seemed to imply she was being asked as a female rather than as male. You know what? It was the succubus, who's name escapes me... I feel like she would, being a creature of sex, know better than anyone the anatomical differences of things.

But that's not much really. Argument seemed stronger in my head.

Roupe
2011-06-05, 04:35 AM
Fairly common in RPG with men having female avatars/characters. V could be one of those females.

ThePhantasm
2011-06-05, 08:07 AM
Fairly common in RPG with men having female avatars/characters. V could be one of those females.

That actually would be one way to explain the ambiguity - a male playing a female character, so that both genders cancel each other out somehow. Of course, as we know, there are no player characters in OOTS.

sims796
2011-06-05, 10:11 AM
Fairly common in RPG with men having female avatars/characters. V could be one of those females.

Like that plant-guy thing from Breath of Fire 2?

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-05, 10:15 AM
V's name ends in -ius, and that is a masculine ending, so he's most likely male.

...In Latin.

Vaarsuvius' name is in Elven, which has different grammatical rules.

See also: Miko Miyazaki, whose name sounds Japanese but comes in the wrong order. Who comes from the same society as O-Chul, which... doesn't sound Japanese at all.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-05, 11:19 AM
V doesn't have visible breasts or curves, even when naked. V is male.

Lira
2011-06-05, 12:04 PM
V doesn't have visible breasts or curves, even when naked. V is male.
According to Origins, Vaarsuvius weighs 39kg/85.9lbs and is 151cm/4"11 tall. That's underweight by human standards. Since breasts are made of fat and V doesn't have much fat, it seems logical that if Vaarsuvius is a female, she would be flat-chested.
So I don't think that a lack of curves is in any way useful to determine what sex Vaarsuvius is.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-05, 12:13 PM
V shows more masculine traits in his actions than feminine ones, proving that V is male.

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-05, 12:19 PM
V shows more masculine traits in his actions than feminine ones, proving that V is male.

Fantasy elves have to subscribe to modern human gender stereotypes?

This is pretty sexist, FYI.

Lira
2011-06-05, 12:19 PM
No, V is clearly female because [insert sexist stereotype here]!

Honestly, when someone says V is male because he acts this way/V is female because of this, it always boils down to stereotypes. I'm so sick of all this "men act this way and females only do this" that I've seen in these threads. Stereotypes are not facts, people break them all the time.

Edit: Ninja'd somewhat.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-05, 12:25 PM
Haley is the group's token female, so V is logically male.

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-05, 12:26 PM
Groups can have more than one female, even if they're dominantly male.

(This one is also sexist, FYI. It presents being male as the default and being female as an aberration.)

Kish
2011-06-05, 12:32 PM
For reasons best known to himself, CaptainIreland is posting every common argument for Vaarsuvius being male in a one-liner, and not attempting to defend any of them.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-05, 12:34 PM
Female adventurers are more about subtlety (Haley, Sabine). V is originally about blasting things with raw power (similar to Belkar, in a way), which is what the male characters do. It would seem V is male.

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-05, 12:34 PM
For reasons best known to himself, CaptainIreland is posting every common argument for Vaarsuvius being male in a one-liner, and not attempting to defend any of them.

Don't care.


Female adventurers are more about subtlety (Haley, Sabine). V is originally about blasting things with raw power (similar to Belkar, in a way), which is what the male characters do. It would seem V is male.

Samantha. Adventurer class. Specialises in evocations.

Miko Miyazaki. Adventurer. Incredibly unsubtle and deals with problems by cutting them into pieces.

Lien. Adventurer. Fights with a spear and has a shark as her special mount.

MoonCat
2011-06-05, 03:40 PM
Nope didn't realize that. That would have been a silly argument to use on Miko though. She has a huge billowy cloak that obscures her entire body except a hip from time to time. From what we saw of the baleful polymorph incident that robe, baring underclothes, is the only layer he's wearing. Actually that raises a question. Do elves traditionally go commando? He's obviously not wearing a bra, and mention of underwear is either overlooked or off camera.

V was wearing underwear I thought, but the tail hid it so we couldn't see whether V had a female or male body.


[repeated sexist short one liner posts with misuse of the word 'proves' and 'logically']

Themrys
2011-06-05, 03:54 PM
V doesn't have visible breasts or curves, even when naked. V is male.

Elves have been shown to have ambigious body forms...but I have to admit, I do like the idea of V and Inky being a gay couple. :smallamused:

@Mooncat: I think V had (visibly) an edgy body, not a round one, in that scene which would point to hir being male. But doesn't prove anything. Elves could be different.
I agree on the assumption that there probably was underwear but we couldn't see ít. V is not the kind of person who would run around with no underwear.

MoonCat
2011-06-05, 03:59 PM
V is not the kind of person who would run around with no underwear.

This made me laugh so hard.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-05, 04:02 PM
...would point to him being male...

Fixed that for you. Hir is not a word.

Lira
2011-06-05, 04:18 PM
Fixed that for you. Hir is not a word.

... Now you're just trying to be offensive. :smallsigh:

FujinAkari
2011-06-05, 04:19 PM
Fixed that for you. Hir is not a word.

You are incorrect. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun)

CaptainIreland
2011-06-05, 04:19 PM
... Now you're just trying to be offensive. :smallsigh:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hir

It is a word, but not in the context that poster was using it (and it is clearly marked as obsolete, in any case).

MoonCat
2011-06-05, 04:31 PM
Fixed that for you. Hir is not a word.

But it is ambiguous, and while you are convicted V is male, we aren't.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-05, 04:32 PM
But it is ambiguous, and while you are convicted V is male, we aren't.

Forget the debate for a second.

It's not a word.

Pick his, hers, him, her, they, or ANY real word. The character in the comic do not rely on these nonsense words.

FujinAkari
2011-06-05, 04:41 PM
Forget the debate for a second.

It's not a word.

Pick his, hers, him, her, they, or ANY real word. The character in the comic do not rely on these nonsense words.

You keep saying this, and while it does not appear in a dictionary, Hir is a valid word (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A770960) and has been in use for 30 years now.

MoonCat
2011-06-05, 04:44 PM
Forget the debate for a second.

It's not a word.

Pick his, hers, him, her, they, or ANY real word. The character in the comic do not rely on these nonsense words.

I never said it was a word, I'm just saying we use it when we're debating because it is annoying to have them be used as evidence of our opinions. The characters in OoTS all have opinions, thus they will use the words meant for them.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-05, 04:46 PM
I never said it was a word, I'm just saying we use it when we're debating because it is annoying to have them be used as evidence of our opinions.

Want to know a secret?

It's equally annoying to read made up words.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-05, 04:48 PM
You keep saying this, and while it does not appear in a dictionary, Hir is a valid word (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A770960) and has been in use for 30 years now.

Not in the dictionary. Used by...certain people for...certain reasons.

I won't get further into it to avoid real world issues that could possibly invoke mods.

It is not a word.

MoonCat
2011-06-05, 04:56 PM
Want to know a secret?

It's equally annoying to read made up words.

Then pretend you don't! But FTFYing everything you dislike with, and imposing your opinions on someone else's post (she merely said pointed to, she SAID it didn't prove anything) is just pure obnoxious.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-05, 05:00 PM
Then pretend you don't!

Right back at you. If you don't like having your words used as evidence, pretend their not.

Really, I don't think it's too hard.


...imposing your opinions on someone else's post (she merely said pointed to, she SAID it didn't prove anything)...

I'm not. The word was incorrect. I'll be happy to change it if the poster would prefer "she" or "they," instead.

MoonCat
2011-06-05, 05:07 PM
Right back at you. If you don't like having your words used as evidence, pretend their not.

Really, I don't think it's too hard.

...You clearly didn't even think about what I just said before equating it with what you said.


I'm not. The word was incorrect. I'll be happy to change it if the poster would prefer "she" or "they," instead.

But you didn't. If you really felt that you HAD to tell everyone that the word isn't real in your opinion, you could have just said so. You 'fixed' someone else's post instead.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-05, 05:08 PM
...You clearly didn't even think about what I just said before equating it with what you said.

Right back at you.


But you didn't. If you really felt that you HAD to tell everyone that the word isn't real in your opinion, you could have just said so. You 'fixed' someone else's post instead.

Welcome to the internet. :smallbiggrin:

ThePhantasm
2011-06-05, 05:11 PM
Welcome to the internet. :smallbiggrin:

Someone makes up a word (happens a lot in languages).

Hilarity Ensues.

MoonCat
2011-06-05, 05:23 PM
Right back at you.

That isn't...you...what...<passes out>

Congratulations, you've just managed to prove what I just said. :smallsigh:

CaptainIreland
2011-06-05, 05:25 PM
That isn't...you...what...<passes out>

Congratulations, you've just managed to prove what I just said. :smallsigh:

Right back...ah, never mind. Too easy.

FujinAkari
2011-06-05, 05:35 PM
Not in the dictionary. Used by...certain people for...certain reasons.

It is not a word.

Its usage for the past 30 years indicates otherwise. If you don't want to accept that sometimes words are added to a language, go speak Latin.

ThePhantasm
2011-06-05, 05:35 PM
Right back...ah, never mind. Too easy.

Except in this case "too easy" doesn't imply that MoonCat left herself open to a joke. Because there is no joke here. You are just repeating the same annoying sentence over and over. Too easy indeed - so easy a toddler can do it.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-05, 05:37 PM
Except in this case "too easy" doesn't imply that MoonCat left herself open to a joke. Because there is no joke here. You are just repeating the same annoying sentence over and over. Too easy indeed - so easy a toddler can do it.

Please don't be insulting. It will get reported.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-05, 05:38 PM
Its usage for the past 30 years indicates otherwise.

The fact that...certain people have been desperately trying for 30 years to get it to be used and yet, it isn't (like what's that made up language, esperanto?), speak volumes to how legitimate a word it is.*

*not at all legitimate

ThePhantasm
2011-06-05, 05:40 PM
Please don't be insulting. It will get reported.

Do you always assume that when someone challenges what you say they are insulting you? Because I don't think I've ever ever thrown an insult at you once.

MoonCat
2011-06-05, 05:43 PM
Please don't be insulting. It will get reported.

He's not being insulting. He's just disagreeing with you and comparing something you're doing to how hard it is.

FujinAkari
2011-06-05, 05:44 PM
The fact that...certain people have been desperately trying for 30 years to get it to be used and yet, it isn't

I use it. Themrys uses it. Mooncat uses it.

The only one objecting to its use is you :P

CaptainIreland
2011-06-05, 05:52 PM
I use it. Themrys uses it. Mooncat uses it.

The only one objecting to its use is you :P

Again, I won't get into the debate because it involves real world issues, and I don't plan on getting mods involved.

And yes, I object to it's use, as does the general public. Otherwise, a gender neutral pronoun would have stuck after 150 years of looking for one.

Oh wait, it did. "They."

FujinAkari
2011-06-05, 05:54 PM
Oh wait, it did. "They."

Usage of 'they' would be grammatically incorrect (violating Subject-verb agreement). Advocating, no, REQUIRING people to violate grammatical guidelines due to your personal sensibilities is improper, unprofessional, and will be met with exactly the response you find in this thread - incredulity.

Hir is the proper term.

I am also offended by your assumption that you are more qualified to speak on behalf of the general public than anyone else.

ThePhantasm
2011-06-05, 05:56 PM
Again, I won't get into the debate because it involves real world issues, and I don't plan on getting mods involved.

Does a discussion of language development involve politics, religion, violence, drugs, sex, and/or criminal activity? Really?


And yes, I object to it's use, as does the general public. Otherwise, a gender neutral pronoun would have stuck after 150 years of looking for one.

I'm pretty sure the general public just doesn't care. I don't see mass protests or TV interviews "objecting."

Kato
2011-06-05, 05:59 PM
Oh my goodness... you know, I won't argue who started it but why is the thread derailing into proper grammar now? Hir has been used on the forum for as long as I've been around when it came to V and probably years before that... if someone has a problem with it... well, ignore it. s/he knows what it means and s/he can just use whatever him/her/hir pleases. No need to go on about it and get people angry again... (maybe it's just me but it feels like there's quite some bad vibes around here lately)

CaptainIreland
2011-06-05, 06:00 PM
Usage of 'they' would be grammatically incorrect (violating Subject-verb agreement). Advocating, no, REQUIRING people to violate grammatical guidelines due to your personal sensibilities is improper, unprofessional, and will be met with exactly the response you find in this thread - incredulity.

Hir is the proper term.

I am also offended by your assumption that you are more qualified to speak on behalf of the general public than anyone else.

Really? It works fine for "you." (Can be singular and plural)

Hir is not the proper term. Talk to me when it's in a legitimate dictionary.

And yes, I guarantee I am more qualified to speak on this subject than any one else so far.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-05, 06:01 PM
Does a discussion of language development involve politics, religion, violence, drugs, sex, and/or criminal activity? Really?

Yes. It would become political very quickly.

ThePhantasm
2011-06-05, 06:08 PM
No need to go on about it and get people angry again...

Why would anyone get angry over a silly topic like this? I mean seriously, if somebody gets angry about this, they'll get angry about anything.



And yes, I guarantee I am more qualified to speak on this subject than any one else so far.

Well, excuuuuuuse me! :smalltongue:


Yes. It would become political very quickly.

I'm trying to imagine how. But I won't ask you to explain.

Also, don't take this the wrong way, but do you mind using the edit button? If you are bothered enough by the use of "hir" that you can request folks not to say it, I think I can make this simple request. Please. It makes responding to you a heck of a lot easier, and makes the thread easier to read.

Holy_Knight
2011-06-05, 08:44 PM
It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that Lirian is really fat by elven standards.

--I mean, I think this is silly. But I also think "look, no obvious breasts, so Vaarsuvius must have been male to begin with!" is silly.
Well... in a lot of cases I would agree with you, but in this particular case, it's probably not really that silly. Rich has commented before about the limitations of working in a stick figure medium, in that there's only so many ways to differentiate one character's appearance from another. Given that fact, it's more probable than not that he would avail himself of all the resources that were available to him in depicting his characters, especially in the main cast. (If we look at strip #1, we see 6 main characters, all of whom have a different hair color, hair style, and primary color scheme from each other.) With this in mind, if Rich had originally intended Vaarsuvius to be female, it's actually quite unlikely that he wouldn't have drawn a more obviously female body-type, because that would have been the most easy and natural way to further differentiate V from most of the other party members, as well as easily illustrate the sex that he (by hypothesis) had in mind. The fact that he didn't makes it rather more probable that V's body shape isn't supposed to be very different from the other males, because he was originally meant to be male too.


For reasons best known to himself, CaptainIreland is posting every common argument for Vaarsuvius being male in a one-liner, and not attempting to defend any of them.
I think it may be part of derailing "your" thread.



@Mooncat: I think V had (visibly) an edgy body, not a round one, in that scene which would point to hir being male. But doesn't prove anything. Elves could be different.
This is pretty unlikely as a general feature though, since we've seen other female elves who do exhibit a traditional female body shape.


This made me laugh so hard.
Me too--that was really funny for some reason. :)


Usage of 'they' would be grammatically incorrect (violating Subject-verb agreement). Advocating, no, REQUIRING people to violate grammatical guidelines due to your personal sensibilities is improper, unprofessional, and will be met with exactly the response you find in this thread - incredulity.

Hir is the proper term.
Actually, at this point I think we have to admit that "they" has at least as much claim to being a legitimate third-person singular pronoun as "hir" does, and probably more. It's already entered common usage, everyone knows what you mean (or, "what one means", if you like) when you use it, and it has a parallel construction to the singular and plural uses of "you".

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-05, 08:53 PM
"They" probably has more right to being considered the "default" gender-neutral third-person pronoun, due to wider use.

However, there is no such thing as "not a word". That's absurdly ridiculous. All a word needs is a definition and it's a word - and 'hir' has a perfectly fine definition.

People make up new words all the time. If you hate evolving languages so much... why are you speaking English? Speak Latin. Or Old English.

weeping eagle
2011-06-05, 11:05 PM
It's not a word.I take a more pragmatic approach: rather than debate the "worditude" of gender-neutral pronouns, I simply dismiss the person who is using them as probably being overly nitpicky and/or no fun, and move on.

Life is short.

Hironomus
2011-06-05, 11:36 PM
Elves have been shown to have ambigious body forms...but I have to admit, I do like the idea of V and Inky being a gay couple. :smallamused:


BY THE GODS

How is this the first time I have ever seen that suggested?
That would be soooo epic.
It's also totally possible and as a joke it would fit in with the whole ambiguous gender gag I think.

Hironomus
2011-06-05, 11:39 PM
:smallconfused:Did I un-derail the thread yet? :smallsmile:

CaptainIreland
2011-06-06, 01:01 AM
Also, don't take this the wrong way, but do you mind using the edit button? If you are bothered enough by the use of "hir" that you can request folks not to say it, I think I can make this simple request. Please. It makes responding to you a heck of a lot easier, and makes the thread easier to read.

I strongly disagree with this, but I'll try and see how it goes.


Well... in a lot of cases I would agree with you, but in this particular case, it's probably not really that silly. Rich has commented before about the limitations of working in a stick figure medium, in that there's only so many ways to differentiate one character's appearance from another. Given that fact, it's more probable than not that he would avail himself of all the resources that were available to him in depicting his characters, especially in the main cast. (If we look at strip #1, we see 6 main characters, all of whom have a different hair color, hair style, and primary color scheme from each other.) With this in mind, if Rich had originally intended Vaarsuvius to be female, it's actually quite unlikely that he wouldn't have drawn a more obviously female body-type, because that would have been the most easy and natural way to further differentiate V from most of the other party members, as well as easily illustrate the sex that he (by hypothesis) had in mind. The fact that he didn't makes it rather more probable that V's body shape isn't supposed to be very different from the other males, because he was originally meant to be male too.


Thank you. I like this.


"They" probably has more right to being considered the "default" gender-neutral third-person pronoun, due to wider use.

However, there is no such thing as "not a word". That's absurdly ridiculous. All a word needs is a definition and it's a word - and 'hir' has a perfectly fine definition.

People make up new words all the time. If you hate evolving languages so much... why are you speaking English? Speak Latin. Or Old English.

Yes, there absolutely is such a thing as "not a word," you vondruke. (See what I did there?)

Hir is not a recognized word. People have tried to artificially make it a word, and those efforts have failed.

And again, for reasons I won't discuss on this forum due to them being possibly mod-worthy, the word is fairly offensive in it's existence.

The word is irrelevant. "It" is perfectly acceptable: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_(pronoun)

They, while not precisely correct, is widely used that way and will likely continue to be used that way for some time.

To deliberately make up a word...nonsense.


I take a more pragmatic approach: rather than debate the "worditude" of gender-neutral pronouns, I simply dismiss the person who is using them as probably being overly nitpicky and/or no fun, and move on.


I respect that approach.

FujinAkari
2011-06-06, 02:02 AM
Actually, at this point I think we have to admit that "they" has at least as much claim to being a legitimate third-person singular pronoun as "hir" does, and probably more. It's already entered common usage, everyone knows what you mean (or, "what one means", if you like) when you use it, and it has a parallel construction to the singular and plural uses of "you".

No, 'they' has no claim to being legitimate. 'They' is defined as incorrect according to the rules of grammar. That the general public misuses it is no justification for accepting it.

The -reason- the general public misuses it is that there is no word which represents an ambiguous gender. 'its' represents not having a gender, which isn't the same thing.

But enough of this, I am also ready to anti-derail the thread. Vaarsuvius' gender is an ongoing joke which Rich is playing on us. I do hope he clears up the ambiguity of hir gender before the strip is complete :)

CaptainIreland
2011-06-06, 02:08 AM
The -reason- the general public misuses it is that there is no word which represents an ambiguous gender. 'its' represents not having a gender, which isn't the same thing.

Sigh. If the general public is misusing a word to expand it's meaning, doesn't that make more sense than creating a word? Especially one as poorly designed as "hir," or "ze," or any other nonsense?

There's no need to answer. The question is rhetorical.


I do hope he clears up the ambiguity of their gender before the strip is complete

Fixed that for you.

Nightmarenny
2011-06-06, 03:58 AM
I wonder if hir gender might irrelevant to hir character. I mean all these guesses seem to be based on hir acting in a way that is stereotypical to hir gender but schle could be very atypical to hir gender.

Killer Angel
2011-06-06, 04:21 AM
Not in the dictionary. Used by...certain people for...certain reasons.

I won't get further into it to avoid real world issues that could possibly invoke mods.

It is not a word.

"hir" is around since 1930, and even if it's not in the dictionary, you cannot negate its existence.
That said, words are constantly added (http://oxforddictionaries.com/page/newwords_may2011_us) to the dictionary. It's a way to zhoosh up the language. :smalltongue:

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-06, 05:45 AM
No, 'they' has no claim to being legitimate. 'They' is defined as incorrect according to the rules of grammar. That the general public misuses it is no justification for accepting it.

Nope, sorry, that's not how it works. Unless you want to say that 'you' has no legitimate claim to being a singular second-person pronoun either (protip: originally, it was only for plurals. The singular was 'thee' or 'thou', depending on familiarity.)

FujinAkari
2011-06-06, 06:13 AM
Nope, sorry, that's not how it works. Unless you want to say that 'you' has no legitimate claim to being a singular second-person pronoun either (protip: originally, it was only for plurals. The singular was 'thee' or 'thou', depending on familiarity.)

...

You is official second person singular and plural. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_person)

We don't operate under what the rule was several hundred years go... seriously, this is one of the most ridiculous counterarguments I've ever seen.

You is correct because the rules of grammar explicitly define it as the second person plural form. They is incorrect because the rules of grammar explicitly exclude it from being an acceptable third person singular form. Hir is acceptable because the rules of grammar say absolutely nothing about a third person ambiguous form

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-06, 06:17 AM
...

You is official second person singular and plural. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_person)

We don't operate under what the rule was several hundred years go... seriously, this is one of the most ridiculous counterarguments I've ever seen.

We are not French. There is no 'official' body governing what is and is not English.

"They" is accepted as a good comrpomise. And has been found in sources dating back to the 1300s.

The switch to using "you" as both singular and plural is far more recent.

So basically, what I'm advocating is this: use whatever form you like. Language is not about sticking to rigidly defined rules. Language is about communicating meaning - and both "they" and "hir" communicate meaning just fine - "they" is more widespread, but even someone who's never come across it before will realise what "hir" means just from context.

Language is constantly changing and mutating. Dictionaries are not the final arbitor of what is and is not part of a language. Slang is part of a language, and very rarely finds its way into a dictionary. A lot of "net speak" is language, but you won't find it in a dictionary.

A good linguist really shouldn't care if you use words you just made up on the spot, as long as he can understand what you mean. Rigid linguists who decry any use that wasn't common when they were a child are the problem, not the people using novel forms of communication.

ThePhantasm
2011-06-06, 06:38 AM
So basically, what I'm advocating is this: use whatever form you like.

Yes, yes, yes, and again yes.

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-06, 06:40 AM
Now, capital letters? You'd damn well better put them on the beginning on proper nouns! [/injoke]

CaptainIreland
2011-06-06, 11:38 AM
{Scrubbed}

MoonCat
2011-06-06, 11:46 AM
{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Except that there is a reason for it to exist, and just because one person dislikes it means that the entire forum should stop using something useful when you haven't even given a solid reason it shouldn't be used. Ninja'd isn't a word either.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-06, 11:52 AM
{Scrubbed}

ThePhantasm
2011-06-06, 11:59 AM
{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Just in case you forgot, I'll helpfully point out it is also the forum rules.


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Huh. Somehow I am able to easily quote more than one person / post in my posts. In this one I quote several of your posts. I think it is a combination of opening a new window / tab and using copy and paste. I don't really think my request is all that unreasonable after all.


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Let's not all agree that. Because there is no reason for us to.


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Instead of you heavy handedly implying that we are all stupid idiots, how about we just laugh about the triviality of this discussion and move on with our lives?

MoonCat
2011-06-06, 12:10 PM
{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Yes there is. We need words to talk about V that are ambiguous.


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

And which one of these words works for him/her?


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

On a single occasion. 'It' is rather distant to be used on a regular basis, and will lead to confusion with all the other 'its' we use in out posts. And even if we did use 'It', that doesn't give us a replacement for hir, does it?


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

That is because ninja'd in real life doesn't make as much sense, because we don't post IRL. In the same way hir wouldn't work IRL. But this isn't real life. In the forum it does work.


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

No you're not. For one, it doesn't raise intelligence whatsoever to use your word choice, it is no better than ours. Second, why should we be grateful about you FTFYing our posts, being snobbish about our word choice, implying we're not as smart as you, and whining at us for doing something that doesn't bug anyone except you?

And the double post thing is an actual rule, not some whim of Phantasm's, unlike your grammar whim about hir.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-06, 12:15 PM
{Scrubbed}

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-06, 12:15 PM
Huh. Somehow I am able to easily quote more than one person / post in my posts. In this one I quote several of your posts. I think it is a combination of opening a new window / tab and using copy and paste. I don't really think my request is all that unreasonable after all.

(There's actually a button for that. See the "+ button next to the quote button? I didn't know what it was for until last week either.)

Also, FYI: word choice has little to do with intelligence. It depends on what you've learned and how open-minded you are about making stuff up or embracing new ideas.

Sure, an unintelligent person may have a limited vocabulary, but so might someone who grew up in a tiny village where they considering 1800s English modern. (Not that the 1800s English vocabulary was much smaller, and it contained several words we don't use anymore. Just work with me here.)

So, basically: No, CaptainIreland, you do not have any authority whatsoever to dictate what is and is not proper English. English belongs to its speakers, and they're entitled - nay, obligated - to do whatever the hell they want with it.

How else do you think the language you're attempting to speak evolved? Do you think it just appeared, fully formed?


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Oh, by the way, this? Yeah, this isn't how languages work. At all.

ThePhantasm
2011-06-06, 12:29 PM
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Well, as Yuki Akuma nicely pointed out, there's an app button for that. :smalltongue:


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Um, but... you just... did... :smalltongue:


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That's your opinion about things, but I doubt you are going to get people to change their opinions on this. They can use what they want to use, so long as they are typing coherent sentences and their messages are understandable, I don't see the problem with it. I don't see how you can prove that it is incorrect or not useful. At best you can prove "hey, there was already another way to say this - by saying 'they' or 'it.'" But that doesn't change much... there has always been several ways to say something in the English language. Synonyms, and all that. :smallwink:


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I've gotten quite a kick out of this one. Earlier I posted "Hilarity ensues." Boy did it! :smallbiggrin:


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All this is true. So? :smallconfused:


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Its fun to speculate. If it bothers you so much, you don't have to participate. I view it like debating whether or not the balrog had wings, or debating a variety of other ambiguous things in literature. Sometimes everything is not clear cut. But so long as we have a good-natured, friendly discussion about it, it can be a lot of fun. :smallsmile:


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I'm not sure that he really cares either way if we discuss this or not. Rich has bigger things on his mind than manipulating forumgoers for a long time. :smallwink:


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Like it or not, it is what this thread is about. I suggested we move on because it seems like everyone keeps getting worked out about this for some odd reason.


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Pot, meet kettle.


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Nope, just having fun, that's all.

MoonCat
2011-06-06, 12:32 PM
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That is probably a good thing, because you just keep arguing the same points even though we have good arguments against them.


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We're not using it to sound clever, we're using it to get a point across (that we're not certain either way). and you can't judge whether it is useful to us or not, just how useful it is to yourself. We know you don't, but you have no idea whether it is useful to us. So please don't tell us how we feel about words. You can't get into our heads, so there's no nned to pretend that you do.


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You were spewing one liners of why it was so obvious V was male two pages ago, why are you talking about not discussing it when you were yourself? Although I admit that just posting cheap arguments for V's masculinity without bothering to defend them doesn't really qualify as discussing, but that is a whole different matter.


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Oh dear gods, did you even read the forum's policy on threads? Threads get closed on page 50, or as close to 50 as possible for space related issues. It doesn't mean the conversation is over.

For a joke that isn't funny.

And yet, unless banned, or bored, no one ever stops talking about it.



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Hark, you've spent most of today complaining about word choice that you can just as easily ignore, and you're talking about moving on?We have an actual point to out discussion, because it's interesting to know what phrases seem male or female in different eyes. But if you see no point in it, why are you even reading it, just so you can be bugged by the typing? Because if you're reading a thread you aren't interested in and you feel you need to complain about the wording, because you can't stand to look at the page with us using hir, WHY ARE YOU READING THIS THREAD AT ALL?

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-06, 12:33 PM
Hey, funny thing: threads always get closed and restarted when they hit 50 pages. It's part of the forum rules. Just like "no double posting".

So, getting back on track: Vaarsuvius is female because she has purple hair.

Yep. That's it.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-06, 12:38 PM
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Yuki Akuma
2011-06-06, 12:39 PM
Does it help if I agree that hir is kinda silly and hard to pronounce, but people should feel free to use it anyway because that's what English is all about?

(Seriously, how do you pronounce it? "Hear"? "Hair"?)

MoonCat
2011-06-06, 12:46 PM
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I'm sorry, your inability to comprehend how much we care about what you think about our 'typos' is not a consideration.


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Only to you, and your judgment has steadily gone down in my eyes ever since you kept up this topic.


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I don't know. This is the one we settled on. By now it's a habit. If you can come up with one we all like enough to change to, then sure, I'm sure we would. But for now, when we're used to this one, which works for us, why change?


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Well, when it get's rejected by the majority of the forum, we might change. But it isn't. It's being rejected by one person. You.


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Being open minded to all options isn't a bad thing, CaptainIreland. And we do use V. I personally use it extremely often when referring to V. But we also use hir. Some of us use hir more often than V. Why does it matter?


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I am not insinuating, I'm outright saying that your complaints about something so easy to ignore is whining. Especially when you say you have no reason to read the thread, so it shouldn't actually be affecting you. At all.


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Don't call me kitten.


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It has become obvious that almost everyone here doesn't want this help, so why don't you just acceot that you tried your best to help us redeem ourselves, and be along your way? If you're doing it to help us, then accept we've looked at your arguments and agree to disagree?


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So a single post saying "I think V is a guy." wasn't good enough? It would have solved you a lot of pains.


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And what is your problem with this?


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We don't seem to need your help, though, do we?

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-06, 12:49 PM
...I'm curious. If 'hir' is not a word, what is it?

CaptainIreland
2011-06-06, 12:49 PM
{{scrubbed}}

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-06, 12:56 PM
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Sorry, you failed to prove your point, because you got across your meaning perfectly. You succeeded at language! Well done!


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:smallconfused: Twenty-three.

I have it listed in my profile.

Edit: Prove only has one 'o', stupid Yuki.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-06, 01:02 PM
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MoonCat
2011-06-06, 01:03 PM
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We don't particularly want your help though, why should you care if we have some bad habits?


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Um, no. You aren't a majority. You couldn't get everyone who uses 'hir' to stop just for no good reason without supernatural abilities.


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I am not a doll, and I wont be chased off of a forum because you don't want to be sad.

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-06, 01:06 PM
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I took my A2 English course about five years ago thanks.

Are you claiming that university level English suddenly goes back to "nope, sorry, English is immutable and ever-static"? Because I haven't applied for university yet due to Life Related Stuff.

FujinAkari
2011-06-06, 01:41 PM
Wow... I just read a whole page where nothing was discussed.

CaptainIreland: it is very simple. Hir functions to communicate that the object of the pronoun has a gender which is unclear. This is a function which neither 'it' or 'they' perform.

It convays that the object has -no- gender, They convays that the object is plural. If YOU want to use 'it' and 'they' then go ahead, you'll notice I haven't been rudely trying to tell you how to post.

By the same token, I will use 'hir' because it is the best word choice for the post I am trying to make. Hir is a word, and when I use it everyone know precisely what I am trying to communicate.

One of the first decisions in any piece of writing is to determine your audience, because your audience will then determine your diction. You are correct that I would never, never use hir in an academic paper. However, these forums are NOT an academic paper and the use of hir is commonly accepted, as can be readily seen by the fact that exactly one person has an objection to it.

As Mooncat said, the fact you have no arguments to back up your objection, other than to just yell 'its wrong!' and state your opinion as though it were fact means that I (and she, apparently) do not consider your objection to have any real merit, and am thus discounting it.

And thats it, I'm likely not going to be debating this any more, but I may go ahead and respond if you can come up with an actual, rational, argument. Thus far all I've got is "Well I [err, the whole world] don't like it!"

ThePhantasm
2011-06-06, 02:24 PM
Hey, funny thing: threads always get closed and restarted when they hit 50 pages. It's part of the forum rules. Just like "no double posting".

So, getting back on track: Vaarsuvius is female because she has purple hair.

Yep. That's it.

It actually would be interesting if elven genders are distinguished by hair color. after all, V's mate and "Polonius" both had green hair, and seem to be male. Lirian had blonde but was a wood elf... I dunno. Not enough info to say really, but an interesting thought.

MoonCat
2011-06-06, 02:26 PM
The other wood elves in SoD, were they ambiguous?

Gift Jeraff
2011-06-06, 02:39 PM
Them being wood elves is purely speculation. As far as we know, all we've seen are high elves and drow. Although I do agree with the theory, and I think the Team Peregrine Commander is a wood elf and clearly a male.

But there were other elves under Lirian's employ with obvious breasts.

MoonCat
2011-06-06, 02:42 PM
Them being wood elves is purely speculation. As far as we know, all we've seen are high elves and drow. Although I do agree with the theory, and I think the Team Peregrine Commander is a wood elf and clearly a male.

But there were other elves under Lirian's employ with obvious breasts.

Because one theory is that either High Elves are more ambiguous than usual, or Wood Elves (which is what Lirian is, I think) are more feminine than most elves.

ThePhantasm
2011-06-06, 02:47 PM
Them being wood elves is purely speculation. As far as we know, all we've seen are high elves and drow. Although I do agree with the theory, and I think the Team Peregrine Commander is a wood elf and clearly a male.

But there were other elves under Lirian's employ with obvious breasts.

I had forgotten about Team Peregrine. Hmm.

Counterspell elf here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0706.html) seems gender ambiguous and even features pink magic.

The lieutenant here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html) has female curvy hips.

I wonder if Counterspell Elf is a wood elf? Or maybe only high elves are gender ambiguous?

Gift Jeraff
2011-06-06, 02:49 PM
Because one theory is that either High Elves are more ambiguous than usual, or Wood Elves (which is what Lirian is, I think) are more feminine than most elves.I know, but your phrasing seemed to imply that the SoD elves are definitely wood elves.

MoonCat
2011-06-06, 02:55 PM
I had forgotten about Team Peregrine. Hmm.

Counterspell elf here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0706.html) seems gender ambiguous and even features pink magic.

The lieutenant here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html) has female curvy hips.

I wonder if Counterspell Elf is a wood elf? Or maybe only high elves are gender ambiguous?

Indeed. Maybe it's something about High Elves, but they're all pretty ambiguous, if the curvy hipped one was in a robe she'd seem pretty male. New theory, all High Elves are ambiguous, and the only way to tell is their hips, which are often hidden. And Inkyruis isn't a High Elf.


I know, but your phrasing seemed to imply that the SoD elves are definitely wood elves.
Oh sorry about that.

Hironomus
2011-06-06, 09:31 PM
So how do you pronounce 'hir' anyway?
I missed the answer to that.

ORione
2011-06-06, 10:13 PM
So how do you pronounce 'hir' anyway?
I missed the answer to that.

I don't think it'll come up. When people are speaking, they usually use "they". Written communication tends to be less formal.


Personally, I used to be against words like hir, but CaptainIreland has convinced me otherwise. Arrogance just turns me off in arguments.

veti
2011-06-06, 10:43 PM
"They" implies indeterminate (although not necessarily plural (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they)), generally because you don't have any specific person in mind. That doesn't apply in V's case.

"It" is clearly disrespectful, on a par with Miko's calling her "Elf!"

So I go with "she". If she takes offence, I'll apologise and correct my mistake, but until then it'll do.


Personally, I used to be against words like hir, but CaptainIreland has convinced me otherwise. Arrogance just turns me off in arguments.

Since they've been scrubbed, I don't even know what those arguments were...

But I don't like 'hir' for two reasons. One, I don't know how to pronounce it, and believe it or not, that seriously impairs my reading ability. And two, there's no consensus on how to conjugate it, which means one word is trying to do the work of three (he/him/his) - and that makes for circumlocutions that are every bit as ugly as "he or she".

Having said that, if other people want to use it - because V's gender matters more to them than it evidently does to V - that's up to them.

ORione
2011-06-06, 10:57 PM
"They" implies indeterminate (although not necessarily plural (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they)), generally because you don't have any specific person in mind. That doesn't apply in V's case.

"It" is clearly disrespectful, on a par with Miko's calling her "Elf!"

So I go with "she". If she takes offence, I'll apologise and correct my mistake, but until then it'll do.



Since they've been scrubbed, I don't even know what those arguments were...

But I don't like 'hir' for two reasons. One, I don't know how to pronounce it, and believe it or not, that seriously impairs my reading ability. And two, there's no consensus on how to conjugate it, which means one word is trying to do the work of three (he/him/his) - and that makes for circumlocutions that are every bit as ugly as "he or she".

Having said that, if other people want to use it - because V's gender matters more to them than it evidently does to V - that's up to them.

I agree with everything you said, especially the last sentence.

MoonCat
2011-06-06, 11:06 PM
So how do you pronounce 'hir' anyway?
I missed the answer to that.

I pronounce it like 'her', which is why I don't use it in the real world, to answer ORione.


I don't think it'll come up. When people are speaking, they usually use "they". Written communication tends to be less formal.


Personally, I used to be against words like hir, but CaptainIreland has convinced me otherwise. Arrogance just turns me off in arguments.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-06, 11:59 PM
I'm back, baby.


Since they've been scrubbed, I don't even know what those arguments were...

I'll reiterate them briefly for you.


"They" implies indeterminate (although not necessarily plural (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they)), generally because you don't have any specific person in mind. That doesn't apply in V's case.

Yes, V's case is pretty specific, since sex is rarely ambiguous in the real world. However, consider what someone would say if they heard a friend of theirs (who dates boys and girls) would say when they found out their friend was seeing someone.

"Oh, what are they?"

A specific person is being referenced, but the sex is unknown.


"It" is clearly disrespectful, on a par with Miko's calling her "Elf!"

Again, not necessarily. Consider you heard your friend had a baby. What's one of the first questions someone asks in that situation?

"What is it?" when wondering if they had a son or a daughter.

Not at all disrespectful. Though I think saying "it" when V was around would probably tick him off.


So I go with "she". If she takes offence, I'll apologise and correct my mistake, but until then it'll do.

Exactly. Might as well use the pronoun that fits which sex YOU think V is, just like the characters in the comic do. If you think V is no sex or a special elf sex, that's a separate discussion.



But I don't like 'hir' for two reasons. One, I don't know how to pronounce it, and believe it or not, that seriously impairs my reading ability. And two, there's no consensus on how to conjugate it, which means one word is trying to do the work of three (he/him/his) - and that makes for circumlocutions that are every bit as ugly as "he or she".

Agreed very strongly. And as I said earlier, there's dozens of made up placeholders that could be used instead of that poorly designed one.


Having said that, if other people want to use it - because V's gender matters more to them than it evidently does to V - that's up to them.

And this is the only place we'll disagree.


ORIONNE -

"Personally, I used to be against words like hir, but CaptainIreland has convinced me otherwise. Arrogance just turns me off in arguments."

Sorry to hear that, especially since as far as I remember, you weren't even involved in the original discussion.

In any case, it isn't wise to go contrary to your own opinions just because you don't like someone else who has the same one.

In any case, I hope to be your friend in the future.

Holy_Knight
2011-06-07, 01:51 AM
No, 'they' has no claim to being legitimate. 'They' is defined as incorrect according to the rules of grammar. That the general public misuses it is no justification for accepting it.

The -reason- the general public misuses it is that there is no word which represents an ambiguous gender. 'its' represents not having a gender, which isn't the same thing.
Your argument here is fallacious, Fujin. You're trying to claim both that language is fluid and malleable, insofar as new words can be made up and added, and that grammar and/or word meanings are somehow sacrosanct, rigid, and eternal. That's simply inconsistent, and wrong. The fact is, a word being used to denote a slightly altered meaning (in this case, "they" coming to refer sometimes to a singular rather than plural third person) has at least as much legitimacy, if not more, than does the invention of a putative word like "hir" and attempting to add it to the lexicon.

Back on (the original) topic, I've yet to see any replies to my response to Kish above, which I think is fairly persuasive. Any takers?

FujinAkari
2011-06-07, 02:38 AM
Your argument here is fallacious, Fujin. You're trying to claim both that language is fluid and malleable, insofar as new words can be made up and added, and that grammar and/or word meanings are somehow sacrosanct, rigid, and eternal.

I am doing no such thing.

I -am- however saying that, when presented with two valid options, one of which violates grammatical rules and one which doesn't, I choose the one which does not violate them.

I also think its interesting how you're claiming I'm trying to 'add something to the lexicon' which has been established for at least thirty years :P

CaptainIreland
2011-06-07, 02:56 AM
I also think its interesting how you're claiming I'm trying to 'add something to the lexicon' which has been established for at least thirty years :P

No, it's not. That's why it isn't in the dictionary. It failed to actually be a word.

From the American Heritage Book of English Usage:

Like most efforts at language reform, these well-intended suggestions have been largely ignored by the general English-speaking public, and the project to supplement the English pronoun system has proved to be an ongoing exercise in futility. Pronouns are one of the most basic components of a language, and most speakers appear to have little interest in adopting invented ones. This may be because in most situations people can get by using the plural pronoun they or using other constructions that combine existing pronouns, such as he/she or 'he or she'.

As for gender neutral pronouns, some have been around for far longer than 30 years (although never actually widely used). Why not use those instead?

I am curious as to what your personal stake is in this, since I liked you a lot, then you seemed to get pretty fired up here. I assume it's more than the language issue. Let me know.

Peanut Gallery
2011-06-07, 04:20 AM
V's mate doesn't have obvious sexual-specific organs showing either.

That s/he doesn't. Based on visual cues, square body/low ponytail, Inkyrius appears male, but based on gender role sterotypes Inkyrius could also be female. I prefer to think of them as a gay male couple though, but only because leaving the wife, a cook and homemaker, behind to take care of the kids while her spouse goes out in search of arcane power is a boring cliche.
It also potentially explains the adopted kids, but there's so many other possibilities ranging from sterility to a pregnancy-phobia its hardly conclusive.

FujinAkari
2011-06-07, 04:23 AM
As for gender neutral pronouns, some have been around for far longer than 30 years (although never actually widely used). Why not use those instead?

Because I am not looking for a gender-neutral pronoun. V does not have a neutral gender, (s)he has an ambiguous one. Using 'it' is disrespectful and dehumanizing.


I am curious as to what your personal stake is in this, since I liked you a lot, then you seemed to get pretty fired up here. I assume it's more than the language issue. Let me know.

I have no -personal- stake. I don't like the rules of grammar being ignored because it makes it significantly harder for non-native speakers (like me) to figure out posts. I also feel the purpose of language is to communicate, and see communication being achieved via the use of 'hir,' so don't understand why anyone objects to it.

I think, generally speaking, I would agree with you if there was a clearly defined correct way to approach this situation... but there isn't. English does not have a word to be used for situations of ambiguous gender, and so I don't have an issue with people solving it themselves.

OoTLink
2011-06-07, 04:46 AM
I wonder what vaarsuvius would respond to a question like this with. But if V was of the curvaceous gender I suppose Belkar would hit on V as he hit on female Roy.

In such a scenario I think Inkyrius would be what is normally known as a tomboy.

Perhaps a simple analysis of Vaarsuvius
Red cape: Red is not particularly favored by either gender

Purple hair: Not unlike the mentor whatever their name is, and also not a color favored by either gender currently

Use of a hair tie around the top of the head: unusual in real life for males although I have contemplated trying that since pony tail ties give me headaches, but not unusual for elves in fantasy.

Of what importance is it anyway? Red robes and purple hair are awesome. I think I would rather have a green robe and purple hair. or a blue robe. STILL!

Killer Angel
2011-06-07, 07:18 AM
I wonder what vaarsuvius would respond to a question like this with.

I don't know, but certainly it would be a verbose answer. :smallwink:

ThePhantasm
2011-06-07, 08:02 AM
What is supposedly the way to tell between wood elves and high elves, aside from the theory that wood elves have more pronounced sexual features? A lot of people seem to be able to state "Oh, that's a wood elf" about a certain elf but how are they to be certain?

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-07, 08:03 AM
With Lirian and co., it's just a guess because she's a Druid.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-07, 10:16 AM
Because I am not looking for a gender-neutral pronoun. V does not have a neutral gender, (s)he has an ambiguous one. Using 'it' is disrespectful and dehumanizing.

...what?

Hir is a gender neutral pronoun...

...I mean...what? I have no idea what you are talking about anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun

teratorn
2011-06-07, 11:15 AM
I have no -personal- stake. I don't like the rules of grammar being ignored because it makes it significantly harder for non-native speakers (like me) to figure out posts.

I find this somewhat fascinating, in my native language something as simple a «thank you» could reveal the gender you consider yourself to be. Circumventing it needs a terribly far-fetched and cumbersome speech. In English it's so much easier.

I hate hir, first time I found it here, and looked for it in the internet I got furry softporn. I'm a fast reader, processing paragraphs at a time, and unfortunately when my brain understood the info that had entered it was already too late, no way to unread it without removing a sizable portion of my cortex. By the way, instead of he/she the furry community uses shi.

I hate you guys, the thing just surfaced again, I'll have to soak my brain in alcohol to make it go away.

Kato
2011-06-07, 12:42 PM
I hate hir, first time I found it here, and looked for it in the internet I got furry softporn. I'm a fast reader, processing paragraphs at a time, and unfortunately when my brain understood the info that had entered it was already too late, no way to unread it without removing a sizable portion of my cortex. By the way, instead of he/she the furry community uses shi.

I hate you guys, the thing just surfaced again, I'll have to soak my brain in alcohol to make it go away.

I'm sorry for the partial loss of your innocence but maybe you should pick your links more carefully. Wiktionary might mention it as a term from the furry fandom but it also mentions (before that) it's use as a pronoun for undefined sexes. No offense meant, of course, stumbling unto things you'd rather unsee on the internet is never a nice experience.

While talking about 'hir', I pronounce it closely as I'd say it in German which is... well, close enough to 'here' to say alike to it.

(And still I am impressed how much data can be wasted on discussing things people should just be allowed to decide for themselves and I'm not talking about V's gender... :smallamused:)


On the actual topic of the thread once more, if we accept V and Inkyrius to be a same sex couple (and their kids to be adopted because elves in the OotS-verse are apparently very open-minded would this mean the elven society including the language is especially oriented to include same-sex couples and gender ambiguity? (Or is that just the Giant making things convenient to keep us in the dark)

Holy_Knight
2011-06-07, 01:22 PM
I am doing no such thing.

I -am- however saying that, when presented with two valid options, one of which violates grammatical rules and one which doesn't, I choose the one which does not violate them.

I also think its interesting how you're claiming I'm trying to 'add something to the lexicon' which has been established for at least thirty years :P
Actually, you are doing that.

1. Languages naturally evolve over time, and this is not limited to only one aspect. You're trying to claim that it is legitimate for a language to change by words being added (like "hir"), but not legitimate for a language to change in terms of how words are used (like "they"). That is indeed an inconsistency in your argument, and it's not how language works.

2. Words change in meaning over time based on usage. In this case, "they" is starting to be used to refer to a third person singular in some cases, not just third person plural. There is no reason why we must think of that as a grammatical change rather than a change in meaning.

3. Aside from that, rules of grammar do and have evolved over time just as all parts of language do. For example, it used to be common pratice in English to capitalize nouns, but now that is no longer considered correct. Thus simply stating that something violates the rules of grammar would not be sufficient to establish your conclusion, even if it weren't refuted by the other points above.

4. I think it's interesting that you keep ignoring Yuki Akuma's point that the singular "they" has been around for hundreds of years.

MoonCat
2011-06-07, 01:27 PM
Like most efforts at language reform, these well-intended suggestions have been largely ignored by the general English-speaking public, and the project to supplement the English pronoun system has proved to be an ongoing exercise in futility. Pronouns are one of the most basic components of a language, and most speakers appear to have little interest in adopting invented ones. This may be because in most situations people can get by using the plural pronoun they or using other constructions that combine existing pronouns, such as he/she or 'he or she'.

Except we're not trying to get it into the general English language, we're just using it here, where it actually has been pretty much accepted. It's a word on the forum. Which is where we are. We wouldn't use it in real life. It isn't a word in real life. We aren't in real life. We're on the forum. I'm on a horse.



On the actual topic of the thread once more, if we accept V and Inkyrius to be a same sex couple (and their kids to be adopted because elves in the OotS-verse are apparently very open-minded would this mean the elven society including the language is especially oriented to include same-sex couples and gender ambiguity? (Or is that just the Giant making things convenient to keep us in the dark)

I always took it as a lost in translation thing. Or Rich just wanting to keep us in the dark without having to avoid scenes with V's children for all eternity.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-07, 01:36 PM
We aren't in real life. We're on the forum.

I'm sorry, I assumed you were a real person with real feelings, and I had hoped people thought the same about me as well.

But you're...not a real person? That's interesting.

MoonCat
2011-06-07, 01:44 PM
I'm sorry, I assumed you were a real person with real feelings, and I had hoped people thought the same about me as well.

But you're...not a real person? That's interesting.

No, that's not what I mean, and I know you understand what I mean.



What type of elves are the ones with the super elongated bodies? Not High Elvesm certainly.

teratorn
2011-06-07, 01:58 PM
To stay on topic, is there any consensus that Zz'dtri is male? Nale calls him 'he' in #44 when Z is first introduced, Sabine again in #49.


Wiktionary might mention it as a term from the furry fandom but it also mentions (before that) it's use as a pronoun for undefined sexes.

It was a couple of years ago, before I learned better and started using wiktionary/wikipedia for these things. I tend to associate hir with it, which is probably unfortunate. Giantitp is a reasonably open forum with a LGTB community and a LGTBitp thread, I wouldn't be surprised if transgender forumites routinely use one of the terms people object so passionately here. I'll drop this discussion completely.

FujinAkari
2011-06-07, 05:30 PM
Actually, you are doing that.

No, no I'm still not.

If I -were- I would be telling other people that they cannot use they. Instead, I have specifically said


If YOU want to use 'it' and 'they' then go ahead, you'll notice I haven't been rudely trying to tell you how to post.


4. I think it's interesting that you keep ignoring Yuki Akuma's point that the singular "they" has been around for hundreds of years.

I am most certainly NOT ignoring it, I just wasn't taught that way, so I am not using it. Why are you so adamently insisting that I cannot use hir, and that I must use they, since this is the third time you've posted arguing with me about a personal choice I'm making?

OoTLink
2011-06-07, 06:47 PM
You could also consider the linear order mage, who has much shorter hair than any other elven mages I have seen thus far in the strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html

Their cape hangs differently and their cape has an open v-neck, not to mention their magic is green. Obviously their hair is also shorter.

Counterspell elf uses pink magic and dresses exactly as Vaarsuvius and Aarindarius do, but that might have something to do with alignment or type of magic.

I still find it interesting that the linear order mage has short hair and a different robe/cape.

Hrmmm. Maybe it's just a hierarchy thing.

Then again, hair length is a lousy indicator of gender, mine is very long. That, and I've never had a negative comment about it so it'll probably stay that way.

Does anyone else think it's funny that V's kids are in their 20s?

Holy_Knight
2011-06-07, 09:19 PM
No, no I'm still not.

If I -were- I would be telling other people that they cannot use they. Instead, I have specifically said





I am most certainly NOT ignoring it, I just wasn't taught that way, so I am not using it. Why are you so adamently insisting that I cannot use hir, and that I must use they, since this is the third time you've posted arguing with me about a personal choice I'm making?
Huh? Where did you get that idea? Perhaps we've had a miscommunication here, because I never said anything about your personal choice, nor insisted that you must use "they" instead of "hir".

What I did say was that in terms of legitimate usage, singular third-person "they" is at least as legitimate as "hir", if not more so. You claimed that "hir" was legitimate but "they" was not, but the argument you were making for that claim was inconsistent.

To be clear, though, I have made no claim about your own usage of "hir". I actually haven't made any claims about "hir" in general, except in terms of its legitimacy relative to the legitimacy of "they".

Gift Jeraff
2011-06-07, 09:38 PM
So, I wanted to see what people's views on the following elves were and what pronouns they (heh) use for V. I'm wondering if there's any kind of correlation. (I don't expect one to answer all of them.)


Vaarsuvius:
Zz'dtri:
"Polozius":
Team (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) Peregrine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0706.html) Commander (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html):
Team Peregrine Archer:
Team Peregrine Wizard:
Team Peregrine Cleric:
Team Harrier Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0705.html):
Inkyrius:
Aarindarius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html):
Blue-Haired Elf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0238.html):
Iron Mage Enchantment (Origin, page 47):
Dark-Skinned Elven Diviner (SoD, page 54):
Light-Skinned Elven Diviner (SoD, page 54):
Elf Chopped by Right-Eye (SoD, page 55):
Elf Who Regrets Having 9 HP (SoD, page 55):
Pronouns Used for V:


Anywho, I'll start it off:

Vaarsuvius: Male (female after the splice ended and before s/he got a ponytail)
Zz'dtri: Male
"Polozius": Male
Team Peregrine Commander: Male
Team Peregrine Archer: Female
Team Peregrine Wizard: Completely on the fence
Team Peregrine Cleric: Female
Team Harrier Ranger: Male?
Inkyrius: Leaning slightly towards male
Aarindarius: Male
Blue-Haired Elf: Female
Iron Mage Enchantment: Male
Dark-Skinned Elven Diviner: Female
Light-Skinned Elven Diviner: Male
Elf Chopped by Right-Eye: Male
Elf Who Regrets Having 9 HP: Male
Pronouns Used for V: Switch between s/he (or him/her), forms of "they", and V

OoTLink
2011-06-07, 10:22 PM
It may be fathomable that Inky is a male, there are other females in the comic that have square bottoms, as you might say.

Also the green elf mage and vaarsuvius look almost exactly the same!

ORione
2011-06-07, 10:35 PM
It may be fathomable that Inky is a male, there are other females in the comic that have square bottoms, as you might say.

Also the green elf mage and vaarsuvius look almost exactly the same!

His name's Zz'dtri.

OoTLink
2011-06-07, 10:43 PM
Ok, but I was referring to the one from the other group that goes to Azure city, sorry I suck at remembering names!


ZZ looks considerably more male in the latest happenings than in the earlier happenings though XD

Now I'm confusing the hell out of myself.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-08, 12:39 AM
I am most certainly NOT ignoring it, I just wasn't taught that way, so I am not using it. Why are you so adamently insisting that I cannot use hir, and that I must use they, since this is the third time you've posted arguing with me about a personal choice I'm making?

Who taught you about "hir?"

KoboldRevenge
2011-06-08, 01:21 AM
What about Schle or Schler?

Pronounced SH-k-lee and Sh-k-ler

Any one who might get that is very good a descyphering my unclear refrences! :smallredface:

CaptainIreland
2011-06-08, 01:30 AM
What about Schle or Schler?

Pronounced SH-k-lee and Sh-k-ler

Any one who might get that is very good a descyphering my unclear refrences! :smallredface:

Futurama did a good job of mocking the whole "hir" trend.

FujinAkari
2011-06-08, 02:49 AM
What I did say was that in terms of legitimate usage, singular third-person "they" is at least as legitimate as "hir", if not more so. You claimed that "hir" was legitimate but "they" was not, but the argument you were making for that claim was inconsistent.

I am fairly certain I have never claimed that. What I claimed was that "they" had no claim to legitimacy since it was defined as illegitimate by the rules of grammar, you will notice I have abandoned that claim for at least two pages, ever since the 'singular they' link was provided.

That still flies against my understanding of the language, but I'm no longer certain it is improper, thus why I shifted to 'if you want to use it, go ahead. I still won't.'


Who taught you about "hir?"

I encountered 'hir' in this very thread about 4 years ago.

Holy_Knight
2011-06-08, 03:34 AM
I am fairly certain I have never claimed that. What I claimed was that "they" had no claim to legitimacy since it was defined as illegitimate by the rules of grammar
Right, and coupled with your insistence that "hir" is proper to use, that looks pretty much like exactly what I said you were claiming. I'm not really sure what the difference is supposed to be between what you're saying here and what I took you to be saying, but if that wasn't what you meant, then never mind.



, you will notice I have abandoned that claim for at least two pages, ever since the 'singular they' link was provided.

That still flies against my understanding of the language, but I'm no longer certain it is improper, thus why I shifted to 'if you want to use it, go ahead. I still won't.'
To be fair, saying "go ahead and use it if you want" isn't really the same thing as retracting the claim that it's illegitimate, but if that's what you intended to convey, then that's fine.

I think we may have been just misunderstanding each other for a bunch of this, so sorry for any confusion. :smallsmile:

FujinAkari
2011-06-08, 05:02 AM
Right, and coupled with your insistence that "hir" is proper to use,

Which claim would that be now? To my recollection what I've said is:


You is correct because the rules of grammar explicitly define it as the second person plural form. They is incorrect because the rules of grammar explicitly exclude it from being an acceptable third person singular form. Hir is acceptable because the rules of grammar say absolutely nothing about a third person ambiguous form

Notice how I don't claim hir is -correct,- merely acceptable. English does not HAVE a word which functions the way Hir does, and Hir is still in the process of coming into being. Thus, until there is an official option, 'hir' is what we're left with :P

You likely got confused due to some of the hyperbole I had with Captain...

Kato
2011-06-08, 05:05 AM
:smallannoyed: I'd love there to be a button that sorts the actually relevant posts from the irrelevant ones in a given thread...


Since it was discussed lately, in the few posts not concerning grammar, I don't thik Zz'dtri's sex is a valid proof, though might be considered a hint. I guess Zz is rather clearly male, at least it was never questioned but Durkon's first counterpart was female so I don't think Nale cared about sexes at this point (or Rich, for that matter except to set up the romance) And body types... as mentioned often, on the one hand a given body shape, especially if hidden by a coak is not good argument for anything, since though elves tend to be more slender V might just as well be a 'big' girl.

ThePhantasm
2011-06-08, 05:36 AM
Since it was discussed lately, in the few posts not concerning grammar, I don't thik Zz'dtri's sex is a valid proof, though might be considered a hint. I guess Zz is rather clearly male, at least it was never questioned but Durkon's first counterpart was female so I don't think Nale cared about sexes at this point (or Rich, for that matter except to set up the romance) And body types... as mentioned often, on the one hand a given body shape, especially if hidden by a coak is not good argument for anything, since though elves tend to be more slender V might just as well be a 'big' girl.

Zz having a "clearly established gender identity" can in itself be an opposite to V, who is ambiguous. That was Nale's reasoning when picking Pompey. Thus (while I do think V is female) the fact that Zz is apparently male doesn't prove anything about V.

Holy_Knight
2011-06-08, 12:36 PM
Which claim would that be now? To my recollection what I've said is:



Notice how I don't claim hir is -correct,- merely acceptable. English does not HAVE a word which functions the way Hir does, and Hir is still in the process of coming into being. Thus, until there is an official option, 'hir' is what we're left with :P
Okay, you said "acceptable" insted of "proper" or "correct", but that's rather splitting hairs. Saying "'Hir' is acceptable, 'they' has no claim to legitimacy" isn't really any different than saying "'Hir' is legitimate, but 'they' is not", which is what I said you were saying. If you want to say that you meant it to be different, then fine I guess.



You likely got confused due to some of the hyperbole I had with Captain...
Ha! And here I was thinking you confused my posts with his, since you inexplicably thought I was attacking you... :smalltongue:

Drynwyn
2011-06-20, 05:03 PM
The answer to V's gender is simply Androgynous. V's gender cannot be determined, since OOTS, as a work of fiction, exists only around the storyline and in the mind of the author. Since Rich has stated that he will never reveal V's gender, this means xe has no gender. It's sort of like shcrodinger's cat: Since V's gender cannot be determined, xe is simultaneously male and female. Taking a gender average, this then tells us that V's gender is, as mentioned above, androgynous.
Schrodinger's elf. Heh.

deathsli'helper
2011-06-20, 06:03 PM
V is a she-elf, End of debate:smallannoyed:

MoonCat
2011-06-20, 09:08 PM
V is a she-elf, End of debate:smallannoyed:

Umm... Do you have any proof? Or are you just stating it without any explanation and then frowning at us? because the point about a debate thread is, well, you debate.

Zigg'rrauglurr
2011-06-20, 09:56 PM
V is a she-elf, End of debate:smallannoyed:

I believe he is making a pun of "she-male"...

CaptainIreland
2011-06-21, 08:41 AM
The answer to V's gender is simply Androgynous. V's gender cannot be determined, since OOTS, as a work of fiction, exists only around the storyline and in the mind of the author. Since Rich has stated that he will never reveal V's gender, this means V has no gender. It's sort of like shcrodinger's cat: Since V's gender cannot be determined, he is simultaneously male and female. Taking a gender average, this then tells us that V's gender is, as mentioned above, androgynous.
Schrodinger's elf. Heh.

Fixed that for you.

NYCharlie212
2011-06-21, 09:02 AM
Zz having a "clearly established gender identity" can in itself be an opposite to V, who is ambiguous. That was Nale's reasoning when picking Pompey. Thus (while I do think V is female) the fact that Zz is apparently male doesn't prove anything about V.

Zz's also androgynous http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0715.html

MoonCat
2011-06-21, 12:25 PM
Fixed that for you.

This again? Why do you do it?

Kato
2011-06-21, 12:32 PM
This again? Why do you do it?

Take a wild guess.... :smallannoyed:

Typewriter
2011-06-21, 03:08 PM
One thing that I find absolutely insane is that I always considered V to be a female. It never even occured to me that hir could be anything else. Every now and then throughout the comic there would be a reference to the joke, and I didn't really get it.

Then I discovered the forums and not only do I find out about the whole confusion over hir's gender, I also seem to have noticed that what I thought of as obvious actually seems to be the less popular choice. Most people seem to think that V is a 'he', at least from what I've seen.

I think it's the puprle hair that does it for me, and of course, after reading about hir for this long with the pre-conceived notion that I'd developed I'd probably never be able to imagine V as anything but a woman. Oh well...

CaptainIreland
2011-06-21, 03:17 PM
One thing that I find absolutely insane is that I always considered V to be a female. It never even occured to me that she could be anything else. Every now and then throughout the comic there would be a reference to the joke, and I didn't really get it.

Then I discovered the forums and not only do I find out about the whole confusion over her gender, I also seem to have noticed that what I thought of as obvious actually seems to be the less popular choice. Most people seem to think that V is a 'he', at least from what I've seen.

I think it's the puprle hair that does it for me, and of course, after reading about her for this long with the pre-conceived notion that I'd developed I'd probably never be able to imagine V as anything but a woman. Oh well...

Fixed that for you.

EDIT TO CLARIFY: Since I think you may have misread my intent, I'm not trying to make you look stupid. You're pretty cool, and as a poster, I like you a lot. Just letting you know about the errors.

Typewriter
2011-06-21, 03:21 PM
Fixed that for you.

Please don't alter my posts to try and make me look stupid. I'll use hir if I like, and I request that you not alter it.

Nightmarenny
2011-06-21, 03:23 PM
Take a wild guess.... :smallannoyed:

Eh just let him do it. It keeps him busy.:smallwink:

Your not the one that looks stupid Typewriter.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-21, 03:24 PM
Please don't alter my posts to try and make me look stupid. I'll use hir if I like, and I request that you not alter it.

And I'll request you use real words.

So...there we are.

Typewriter
2011-06-21, 03:26 PM
And I'll request you use real words.

So...there we are.

I have no interest in your opinions about 'real words', I'm simply telling you that I don't appreciate you editing my posts to try and make me look stupid.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-21, 03:29 PM
I have no interest in your opinions about 'real words', I'm simply telling you that I don't appreciate you editing my posts to try and make me look stupid.

This is pretty off-topic and probably getting to a point when you should just send me a PM, buddy.

Typewriter
2011-06-21, 03:31 PM
This is pretty off-topic and probably getting to a point when you should just send me a PM, buddy.

Done, I would appreciate it if you kept any and all remarks about what you consider to be the quality of my posts to PM.

MoonCat
2011-06-21, 03:32 PM
And I'll request you use real words.

So...there we are.

Your request is invalid, it is a real word, if not in real life then it is in the forums.


This is pretty off-topic and probably getting to a point when you should just send me a PM, buddy.

You were the one who restarted it by correcting another post. Why didn't you just PM him?

CaptainIreland
2011-06-21, 03:34 PM
Why didn't you just PM him?

I did. The public acknowledgement was so that other third parties might not get involved by thinking it was unresolved. Typewriter and I are communicating by PM.

MoonCat
2011-06-21, 03:35 PM
I did. The public acknowledgement was so that other third parties might not get involved by thinking it was unresolved. Typewriter and I are communicating by PM.

But why did you post in the thread at all then? Why not just use only PM?

CaptainIreland
2011-06-21, 03:38 PM
But why did you post in the thread at all then? Why not just use only PM?

I feel this is getting off-topic and I would prefer it be taken to PM. :smallwink:

ImperatorK
2011-06-21, 09:12 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/oots0128.gif
Belkar to Elan and V: "Sniff! I love you guys!"
That may be a hint. On the other hand it would be hilarious if V would ba a she.

FujinAkari
2011-06-21, 09:19 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/oots0128.gif
Belkar to Elan and V: "Sniff! I love you guys!"
That may be a hint. On the other hand it would be hilarious if V would ba a she.

... innumberable people have referred to V as genders throughout the comic. It just means that's what they consider hir to be at that precise second, it isn't a hint.

Rich says as much in the F.A.Q.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-21, 10:20 PM
... innumberable people have referred to V as genders throughout the comic. It just means that's what they consider her to be at that precise second, it isn't a hint.

I think you made a typo?

FujinAkari
2011-06-21, 10:34 PM
I think you made a typo?

I think I already told you that further attempts to edit my posts would be interpreted as harassment. If you have nothing to bring to the discussion, then it might be best not to post at all.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-21, 11:02 PM
I think I already told you that further attempts to edit my posts would be interpreted as harassment. If you have nothing to bring to the discussion, then it might be best not to post at all.

I can't control how you interpret my posts. In a very kind, sincere, thoughtful, friendly way: I think you made a typo.

MoonCat
2011-06-21, 11:04 PM
I can't control how you interpret my posts. In a very kind, sincere, thoughtful, friendly way: I think you made a typo.

If you really are being "kind, sincere, thoughtful, friendly" then you would recognize that we have made note of your belief that we are making a typo, and stopped harassing the other posters after that.

Nightmarenny
2011-06-21, 11:49 PM
... innumberable people have referred to V as genders throughout the comic. It just means that's what they consider hir to be at that precise second, it isn't a hint.

Rich says as much in the F.A.Q.

Also this might be strictly an american thing but "guys" is pretty much gender neutral nowadays. Its not even proof of what belkar thinks hir gender is.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-22, 12:23 AM
Its not even proof of what belkar thinks V's gender is.

Is this what you were trying to say? The way it was worded the pronoun could have referred to Belkar.

Nightmarenny
2011-06-22, 01:36 AM
Is this what you were trying to say? The way it was worded the pronoun could have referred to Belkar.
It was worded exactly as I wished it to be. You did not change it because it was unclear. It was not. In context the meaning is clear. You changed it to further your silly little vendetta.

Lidya
2011-06-22, 02:20 AM
Can't we just slip on the belt of Gender-Changing while Vaarsuvius isn't looking and see if there's any difference? If not, there's a whole different tier of complexity we would have to delve in to.

Kato
2011-06-22, 08:18 AM
You know, not sure if it was discussed earlier but is there a general opinion whether Blackwing is aware of V's gender? Him being hir (no typo) familiar he is probably the only one to make any reliable judgment so only anything one can deduce from his words is if at all reliable to make any guess. (Of course, excluding anything V ever did which might have given away hir (no typo) gender.


Also, wanted to say it earlier but forgot: I felt a lot like Typewriter, though I can't really recall whether it was me visiting the forums or some joke in the comic that made me question hir (no typo) gender. I always thought of V as a female up to a certain point rather far into the story and wondered about thing like Belkar staring at lizard!V's... whateveryoucallit.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-22, 10:43 AM
You know, not sure if it was discussed earlier but is there a general opinion whether Blackwing is aware of V's gender? Him being hir (no typo) familiar...

{{scrubbed}}

Typewriter
2011-06-22, 11:01 AM
No typo? Then you're just using an incorrect word, how wonderfully counter-culture of you, sweetheart. Also, your second sentence is unclear who you are referring to with the pronouns. Imagine this paragraph:

Is there a general opinion of whether David is aware of Jack's intentions? Him being his dentist, he should be.

Who is the dentist? David or Jack? Be careful with pronouns! They are tricky business! (Nightmare, you should probably consider that too, since your post was similarly unclear.)

Don't you think that discussion is off topic and should be moved to PM?

CaptainIreland
2011-06-22, 11:08 AM
Don't you think that discussion is off topic and should be moved to PM?

I'd be happy to PM with you any time, my friend.

Kato
2011-06-22, 11:11 AM
No typo? Then you're just using an incorrect word, how wonderfully counter-culture of you, sweetheart. Also, your second sentence is unclear who you are referring to with the pronouns. Imagine this paragraph:

Is there a general opinion of whether David is aware of Jack's intentions? Him being his dentist, he should be.

Who is the dentist? David or Jack? Be careful with pronouns! They are tricky business! (Nightmare, you should probably consider that too, since your post was similarly unclear.)
First of, I'd like you not to call me sweetheart, thank you. If someone is to call me that, it's my mate.

I'm sorry, if anyone here is unaware whether Blackwing is V's familiar or the other way round I think s/he is on the wrong forum here. And I wasn't aware there was any questioning Blackwing's gender or is there?


Don't you think that discussion is off topic and should be moved to PM?
I'd say something about that but I don't think the mods would like it...

CaptainIreland
2011-06-22, 11:15 AM
{{scrubbed}}

CaptainIreland
2011-06-22, 11:51 AM
Never mind, seems goodyarn knew enough to delete his post.

MoonCat
2011-06-22, 11:52 AM
Can't we just slip on the belt of Gender-Changing while Vaarsuvius isn't looking and see if there's any difference? If not, there's a whole different tier of complexity we would have to delve in to.

It's generally assumed that if we do that V will either stay exactly the same or the universe will explode. :smallwink::smallwink::smallbiggrin:


First of, I'd like you not to call me sweetheart, thank you. If someone is to call me that, it's my mate.

Yeah, he did that to me too. Just ignore it.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-22, 11:53 AM
...or the universe will explode.

...why would the universe explode, love?

MoonCat
2011-06-22, 11:56 AM
...why would the universe explode, love?

For entirely unrelated reasons that just happened at the same time. OR it was a joke. And don't call me love.

CaptainIreland
2011-06-22, 11:58 AM
For entirely unrelated reasons that just happened at the same time. OR it was a joke.

OH! I see.


And don't call me love.

Why? It's a nice term of endearment, used in England and Ireland quite a bit. Love is great...like the Rolling Stones said, "All you need is love."

Kato
2011-06-22, 12:27 PM
Just to remind you, I was wondering whether Blackwing is aware of V's gender or not *cough*

CaptainIreland
2011-06-22, 12:34 PM
Just to remind you, I was wondering whether Blackwing is aware of V's gender or not *cough*

Already discussed. Most people argue that no, Blackwing is not aware, or that we cannot say for certain whether Blackwing's pronoun use is the same as everyone else in the comic, which is to say, using he or she depending on "their own point of view" (also making it easier for the writer).

Most people will not accept anything Blackwing says as proof.

veti
2011-06-22, 05:46 PM
And I wasn't aware there was any questioning Blackwing's gender or is there?

Everyone refers to Blackwing as "he", but they're taking their cue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0154.html) from V. We know V doesn't care about pronouns (and didn't care about the raven, until fairly recently, and didn't even bother to name him until Haley prompted her to do so). So there's probably room to doubt Blackwing's gender too, if anyone thinks it would add to the excitement...

Blackwing is supposedly a raven, and there's no easily-observable difference between sexes for ravens. (Although his yellow bill and feet don't look like any species of raven from our world, so it's also possible that he's some homebrewed variant of raven, where for all we know the females may be bright green.)

I do think it's interesting that V's gender is the subject of endless debate and speculation, but with Blackwing we're happy to accept an assumption without so much as a nod.

EarFall
2011-06-22, 06:15 PM
I can't control how you interpret my posts. In a very kind, sincere, thoughtful, friendly way: I think you made a typo.

So, just as a random observer, are you paid to irritate everyone? If so, they need to give you a raise.

If not, I fail to see why you'd enjoy making what is a forum of comic a place that NO ONE ENJOYS because of what you post. This thread has been derailed into insanity, and every time you suggest to stop, of course it's always with you magically having the last word.

I'm not saying others haven't played along, they have, and I suppose so am I for posting this. The difference is I'm posting this one time, because I honestly don't know: do you realize how much less fun you're making this? If you do, then you're just purposely annoying people. If you don't, then I'm making a polite, sincere observation.

Surtur
2011-06-22, 09:03 PM
Going back to the v-man. Has anyone considered that a v is simply half a w? And what about the hyphen? If you were to turn an "o" on it's side, it would be a flat line. Just like "-". So as we can see, the term "v-man" was simply another hidden message by the illuminati. Vaarsuvius is actually Jesus' sister who was painted into the Last Supper by the founding fathers and then hidden in the national archives. It wasn't until Bones was able to link the DNA evidence of V's bones with one of the victims of the Zodic killer during Officer Harry Callahan's investigation. Later, former detective Monk learned of the familiar of V's while tracking D.B Cooper, identified in a tip as Doobie Keebler by Mathew Brock, radio reporter of WNYX, which led him to the fabled Lost Dialogue of Plato. Bret Farve and Lebron joined Scooby and the gang to uncover that the Harlem Globe Trotters were impersonating old man Jenkins which made this discovery possible.

Also, hello!

MoonCat
2011-06-22, 09:04 PM
Going back to the v-man. Has anyone considered that a v is simply half a w? And what about the hyphen? If you were to turn an "o" on it's side, it would be a flat line. Just like "-". So as we can see, the term "v-man" was simply another hidden message by the illuminati. Vaarsuvius is actually Jesus' sister who was painted into the Last Supper by the founding fathers and then hidden in the national archives. It wasn't until Bones was able to link the DNA evidence of V's bones with one of the victims of the Zodic killer during Officer Harry Callahan's investigation. Later, former detective Monk learned of the familiar of V's while tracking D.B Cooper, identified in a tip as Doobie Keebler by Mathew Brock, radio reporter of WNYX, which led him to the fabled Lost Dialogue of Plato. Bret Farve and Lebron joined Scooby and the gang to uncover that the Harlem Globe Trotters were impersonating old man Jenkins which made this discovery possible.

Also, hello!

Ssh! Many of the people here might take that seriously!

Hello!

Nimrod's Son
2011-06-22, 09:38 PM
like the Rolling Stones said, "All you need is love."
I can't tell if you've done that deliberately or not, but it's left me twitching all the same.

Veya
2011-06-23, 01:04 AM
Meh, I think V don't really have a gender, I once read somewere that the gender-changing belt got a small chance of removing the wearer's gender completelly upon being removed, V is an elf, means alot longer life and alot more time to such a thing heapen, no gender would explain V's... problems with discussing genders...


Hahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahah ahahahahahahahah!

I... I don't really know how to answer that, so I will just smile and hope you go away... (:smallbiggrin:)

Surtur
2011-06-23, 01:29 AM
Hahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahah ahahahahahahahah!

I know, I am an endless font of wit aren't I?

McDouggal
2011-06-26, 09:36 PM
I believe Vaarsuvius is female, since she only rooms with Haley. Also, it would make comic #123 much more funny. I'd find the exact page... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0225.html here you go. Second row. I doubt that Haley would do this if she didn't have convincing evidence that V was female. Also, it's a LATENT bisexual side. Just covering the bases.

Welknair
2011-06-26, 11:04 PM
I believe Vaarsuvius is female, since she only rooms with Haley. Also, it would make comic #123 much more funny. I'd find the exact page... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0225.html here you go. Second row. I doubt that Haley would do this if she didn't have convincing evidence that V was female. Also, it's a LATENT bisexual side. Just covering the bases.

Or she could have known that s/he was married...

MoonCat
2011-06-26, 11:14 PM
I believe Vaarsuvius is female, since she only rooms with Haley. Also, it would make comic #123 much more funny. I'd find the exact page... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0225.html here you go. Second row. I doubt that Haley would do this if she didn't have convincing evidence that V was female. Also, it's a LATENT bisexual side. Just covering the bases.

About the bisexuality, that doesn't mean Haley knows V is lesbian.

FujinAkari
2011-06-26, 11:28 PM
I believe Vaarsuvius is female, since she only rooms with Haley. Also, it would make comic #123 much more funny. I'd find the exact page... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0225.html here you go. Second row. I doubt that Haley would do this if she didn't have convincing evidence that V was female. Also, it's a LATENT bisexual side. Just covering the bases.

What exactly is Haley doing here? All she does in the second row is say "You want to pull the strings, you have to pay the piper." Which seems to have nothing to do with V's gender.

Origin's Spoilers
V's preference for rooming with Haley is due to them knowing eachother much, much longer than anyone else in the order has known anyone else. The reason V adventures is because Haley convinced hir to, Haley is pretty much the only person in the world which V will accept advise from.

Holy_Knight
2011-06-27, 01:14 AM
Origin's Spoilers
V's preference for rooming with Haley is due to them knowing eachother much, much longer than anyone else in the order has known anyone else. The reason V adventures is because Haley convinced hir to, Haley is pretty much the only person in the world which V will accept advise from.

Yeah, that's one part of the backstory that I'd really like to know more about! It seems like it would be an interesting tale.

Qwertystop
2011-06-27, 11:52 AM
Yeah, that's one part of the backstory that I'd really like to know more about! It seems like it would be an interesting tale.

The contents of your quoted spoiler are pretty much all of it.
V meets Haley in a bar, complains about the slow XP, and Haley tells V about the much faster XP gain from adventuring. They (Haley and V) then sign up for Roy's team.

FujinAkari
2011-06-27, 11:59 AM
V meets Haley in a bar, complains about the slow XP, and Haley tells V about the much faster XP gain from adventuring. They (Haley and V) then sign up for Roy's team.

Thus why he said he'd like to know more about it... he wasn't saying he wanted to know what Origins said, he'd like more of their history to be revealed.

McDouggal
2011-06-27, 03:06 PM
What exactly is Haley doing here? All she does in the second row is say "You want to pull the strings, you have to pay the piper." Which seems to have nothing to do with V's gender.

V says "I only room with miss Starshine."

FujinAkari
2011-06-27, 04:11 PM
V says "I only room with miss Starshine."

I'm just not seeing how this supports the idea that V is female in any way, shape, or form. Are you saying Haley is a prude and would never ever room with a boy? :smallconfused:

Cizak
2011-06-27, 04:47 PM
The contents of your quoted spoiler are pretty much all of it.
V meets Haley in a bar, complains about the slow XP, and Haley tells V about the much faster XP gain from adventuring. They (Haley and V) then sign up for Roy's team.

I don't think that's when they met. Their dialouge sounds like they already knew each other at that point.