Time stop subtleties?

[pegase]

Animated items in time stop? They're technically not creatures, and according to time stop we can affect anything that isn't or doesn't belong to anyone. The animate seed under d20srd.org states that it doesn't provide actual life to the item; so therefore it follows that I can screw around with that animated suit of armor as much as I want to under time stop?

Also, can you cast spells under timestop, such as delayed fireball?

[Divide by Zero]

Also, can you cast spells under timestop, such as delayed fireball?

Yes.

Not sure on the first part, and I don't have time to look through the rules on it right now.

[ericgrau]

Technically animated objects are creatures, constructs to be precise, like golems. If you mean moving objects around rather than creating actual animated objects, I dunno. That could be considered indirectly dealing damage.

Delayed blast fireballs in a timestop are popular.

[Yuki Akuma]

A "creature" is anything with both Wisdom and Charisma scores. Animated objects have both.

And yes, you can cast spells in time stop. The most common use is to get several rounds of buffing time.

[pegase]

Can I control weather under time stop? Could I possibly duplicate time stop as an epic spell and make it permanent?

Also, I can prevent time stoppers from using doors by animating the exits, huh? That's amusing.

[Tvtyrant]

Can I control weather under time stop? Could I possibly duplicate time stop as an epic spell and make it permanent?

Also, I can prevent time stoppers from using doors by animating the exits, huh? That's amusing.

One of the threads proved you cannot disintegrate trees earlier; D&D rules are kinda borked.

[pegase]

Wait a second. If I afflicted a creature so it has 0 int, wis, and cha under time stop, it is therefore not a creature so I can affect it?

[pegase]

One of the threads proved you cannot disintegrate trees earlier

Lolwaitwhat. Can I see that thread?

Apologies for double posting.

[Herabec]

Having an int/wis/cha score of 0 is different from not having a score, and therefor, something that has a score drained to zero is still a creature.

[Tvtyrant]

Lolwaitwhat. Can I see that thread?

Apologies for double posting.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201116&highlight=tree+disintegrate&page=2 has the posts about it starting in the middle of the page.

[pegase]

Having an int/wis/cha score of 0 is different from not having a score, and therefor, something that has a score drained to zero is still a creature.

Fair enough. But is there a way to take away someone's int/wis/cha scores?

[Herabec]

...Not that I know of, short of killing them. I'm fairly sure that takes away their scores.

Unless they're animated. :smalleek:

Of course, that can be changed by researching a spell specifically designed to remove a sentient creature's score(s), though I imagine such a spell would be epic.

[pegase]

Transport seed to move soul from person into a gem?

[Herabec]

Would work, depending on the GM. Though, that does essentially kill the body anyway (After all, death is simply described as the soul leaving the body in the PHB)

[Yuki Akuma]

Fair enough. But is there a way to take away someone's int/wis/cha scores?

Short of epic magic, and even then, no, not at all.

Not having a score is different from having a score of 0. A creature with no Constitution is not alive, but it's still a creature. A living creature reduced to 0 Constitution dies, and becomes an object.

A creature with no Intelligence has no mind or mental reasoning ability. A creature brought to 0 Intelligence falls into a coma.

[ericgrau]

Fair enough. But is there a way to take away someone's int/wis/cha scores?

It would have to have no awareness of its environment at all; and therefore not really a construct. A machine without any sensors or other free moving object.

[AslanCross]

One of the threads proved you cannot disintegrate trees earlier; D&D rules are kinda borked.

Really? While it is an object, it is living matter, so indeed, the "disintegrate 10 feet of nonliving matter" clause doesn't apply to it. However, it still takes damage from the beam and can even make a Fort save for half.

[Tvtyrant]

Really? While it is an object, it is living matter, so indeed, the "disintegrate 10 feet of nonliving matter" clause doesn't apply to it. However, it still takes damage from the beam and can even make a Fort save for half.

Not my posts or arguments, I just pointed out the thread (which I skimmed). I see your argument and agree.

[NNescio]

Really? While it is an object, it is living matter, so indeed, the "disintegrate 10 feet of nonliving matter" clause doesn't apply to it. However, it still takes damage from the beam and can even make a Fort save for half.

"When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter."

[Tvtyrant]

"When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter."

Edit: Second Emphasis Mine. The tree is alive; therefore it does not disintegrate the 10 ft. cube.

[peacenlove]

Short of epic magic, and even then, no, not at all.

Not having a score is different from having a score of 0. A creature with no Constitution is not alive, but it's still a creature. A living creature reduced to 0 Constitution dies, and becomes an object.

A creature with no Intelligence has no mind or mental reasoning ability. A creature brought to 0 Intelligence falls into a coma.

Petrification does wonders to make your wisdom and charisma a non-ability :smallamused:

[NNescio]

Edit: Second Emphasis Mine. The tree is alive; therefore it does not disintegrate the 10 ft. cube.

And hence it has no effect and doesn't take damage from the beam, since the damage clause only applies to creatures. I am well aware of the part you emphasized, since I took part in the discussion on the other thread.

Taken in whole:

Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6).

If it's a creature, it takes 2d6 damage/CL.


When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter.

If it's an object, one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter is disintegrated. Living matter is, by RAW, unaffected.

Note that there is no "Fort save for half." If it's a creature, it takes damage. If it's an object, nonliving matter is disintegrated. Living matter is, by implication, unaffected. There is, however, a "fortitude save for partial" 'though, and here's where it gets wonkier:


A creature or object that makes a successful Fortitude save is partially affected, taking only 5d6 points of damage. If this damage reduces the creature or object to 0 or fewer hit points, it is entirely disintegrated.

Unless I'm reading it wrong, the tree is entitled to a fortitude save. If it makes the save, it takes 5d6 damage. If it fails the save, it is unaffected.

[pegase]

I guess the tree doesn't fall under the category of "creature"? Can someone confirm this outside of the dictionary definition, that D&D rules specifically place plants in another category than "creature"?

[NNescio]

I guess the tree doesn't fall under the category of "creature"? Can someone confirm this outside of the dictionary definition, that D&D rules specifically place plants in another category than "creature"?

See this post. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11096931&postcount=53) Also this one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11096934&postcount=54)

[pegase]

Huh, and I guess the tree can willingly fail the save so it isn't damaged. But is it smart enough to do that? Aha! Is the caster allowed to lower his/her spell's DC willingly?

[Hirax]

Back to OP, if you want even more buffing time, cast time stop, plane shift to a plane you've created via genesis where time flows much more quickly so that 1 day is = to 1 round. Put on a bunch of 24 hour buffs, rest for 8 hours, re prepare your spells, buff anything with less than a 24 hour duration, then plane shift back to the fight so that only a couple rounds of your time stop have gone by.

[Yuki Akuma]

Huh, and I guess the tree can willingly fail the save so it isn't damaged. But is it smart enough to do that? Aha! Is the caster allowed to lower his/her spell's DC willingly?

Trees are objects, not creatures.

One assumes they have Constitution scores, but without Wisdom or Charisma, they're objects. :smalltongue:

[pegase]

They're still objects composed of living matter, and therefore won't be damaged by the failed-save aspect of disintegrate, which only damages non-living matter technically. All regardless of whether or not the tree is a creature or an object.

TROLOLOLOLOLOL

[Fuhrmaaj]

Can anyone show me where in the D&D rules it says that a tree is living matter? I know that it is but if we're going by a strict RAW reading of the spell, I don't think there's anything that says that trees are living. We understand that trees are objects because their Wis and Cha scores are (presumably) zero.

Just a page reference or link is fine.

[Hirax]

Can anyone show me where in the D&D rules it says that a tree is living matter? I know that it is but if we're going by a strict RAW reading of the spell, I don't think there's anything that says that trees are living. We understand that trees are objects because their Wis and Cha scores are (presumably) zero.

Just a page reference or link is fine.

Plant Type

This type comprises vegetable creatures. Note that regular plants, such as one finds growing in gardens and fields, lack Wisdom and Charisma scores (see Nonabilities) and are not creatures, but objects, even though they are alive. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#plantType)

edit: of course, one could simply cast blight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blight.htm) and then disintegrate the withered remains if desired. Note that any non-creature plant doesn't get a save and dies automatically, it's only creature plants that are subject to HP damage from it.

[Luckmann]

Oh god. When the question was posed, I thought Fuhrmaaj was just being obtuse, trying to argue that trees aren't living organisms.

And then it turns out to actually be in the rules. :smalleek:

[Jack_Simth]

Animated items in time stop? They're technically not creatures, and according to time stop we can affect anything that isn't or doesn't belong to anyone.
As stated by several people already, an already-animated object is a creature. However, you can cast Animate Objects on nearby unattended stuff.

First thing to do is go to the actual text of the spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm):

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.

You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.
What does this mean?

You can cast anything you want during a Time Stop. However, you can't affect any creatures, nor can you affect any attended objects. So if you use a regular Fireball on someone, there's no effect on them directly (although if they're standing on an ice bridge, you may very well destroy the icy ground underneath their feet, potentially causing them to fall, as the ground is not usually considered attended).

Durations of any spells you cast still tick; anything that's not targeted and has a duration functions normally after the Time Stop ends - so if you use a Delayed Blast Fireball on the guy standing on the ice bridge, and set the timer on the Delayed Blast Fireball so it takes effect after your Time Stop ends, then he takes full damage. If you cast Acid Fog over an area someone occupies during a Time Stop, the guy stuck in the fog takes damage once the Time Stop is over. And so on.

A curious quirk: Gate and Summon Monster spells don't work, even though the Time Stop lists "summoning allies" as a common use. Seriously - both Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning) and Calling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#calling) Spells (when they produce a creature) specify that they're pulling a real creature from somewhere - so those spells are unusable, as they're directly affecting the Summoned / Called creature (most DM's don't look into it that deeply, though, and ignore that aspect). Conjouration(Creation) spells still work just fine, as do Transmutation and Necromancy spells that affect objects - so Unseen Servant, Mage's Faithful Hound, Animate Objects, Animate Plants, potentially Animate Dead, Animate Rope, Mage's Sword, the Hand line of spells, and quite a few others can be used to get you temporary allies.


Oh god. When the question was posed, I thought Fuhrmaaj was just being obtuse, trying to argue that trees aren't living organisms.

And then it turns out to actually be in the rules. :smalleek:
D&D is quirky like that.

[Munchkin-Masher]

A "creature" is anything with both Wisdom and Charisma scores. Animated objects have both.

Wait, so are intelligent magic items creatures?

They have both Wisdom and Charisma, but they aren't necessarily animated.

[jpreem]

Well if a tree is not a creature (by having required non-abilities) then disintegrate should act something like that. Tree is made up of living and non living components. The nonliving components ( most of the wood part of plant -which is composed of walls of dead cells) is destroyed, leaving something gooey? A puddle.

(edit: added -by having required non-abilities)

[Drglenn]

Well if a tree is not a creature (by having required non-abilities) then disintegrate should act something like that. Tree is made up of living and non living components. The nonliving components ( most of the wood part of plant -which is composed of walls of dead cells) is destroyed, leaving something gooey? A puddle.

(edit: added -by having required non-abilities)

The trouble with that is most of the dead parts of the tree are on the inside, you'd have to get through the living parts first. The bark is more there to protect the vital xylem and phloem just underneath it (which is why you can kill a tree by cutting a continuous circle around it, known as 'ringing' it, though this takes days/weeks/months to actually kill it and even if you miss a small bit it can regrow) than it is to hold the tree up.

So a disintigrate would de-bark the tree and expose the vital vessels. If you really want to goo-ify a tree (what have you got against trees anyway?): cut a hole in it to get to the insides then disintigrate that.

That being said though, most other plants don't work like trees, all of the plant is living

[Yuki Akuma]

Yes, intelligent magic items are creatures. You can cast spells that only affect creatures on them.

But they also count as objects for effects that only work on objects.

Maybe only the intelligence is a creature and the 'body' is an object. Who knows.

A creature doesn't need to have Strength, Dexterity, Constitution or Intelligence to be a creature. A nonliving creature that cannot move (like an intelligent magic item) has no Strength, Dexterity or Constitution, but as it has Wisdom and Charisma it's still a creature (and in this case it also has Intelligence, so it's not immune to mind-affecting spells by virtue of having a mind to affect).

[Ruinix]

Well if a tree is not a creature (by having required non-abilities) then disintegrate should act something like that. Tree is made up of living and non living components. The nonliving components ( most of the wood part of plant -which is composed of walls of dead cells) is destroyed, leaving something gooey? A puddle.

(edit: added -by having required non-abilities)

and with that we have a bunch of catgirls dead :smallyuk:

[Yuki Akuma]

and with that we have a bunch of catgirls dead :smallyuk:

No, that's just when you invoke physics. He's invoking biology.

[Tvtyrant]

No, that's just when you invoke physics. He's invoking biology.

Yes, but (http://xkcd.com/435/)....