Pathfinder - Sorceror

[Man With Dog]

So the game i was making a rogue in has changed minds again and i look like i am going arcane - i asked about Wizards and got a couple of people offering advice and then came forwar the Sorceror.

I would be the only arcane in this group - i currently made myself Elven (i may be able to change this) but i was hoping if i show stats i have i may be able to get some help creating him?
Group consists of: Monk - Barbarian/Fighter - Cleric - Bard - Unknown (likely fighter) and Arcane and we are all level 1 currently.
My stats (not adjusted for race) are 16 - 16 - 14 - 13 - 11 - 11.

Any idea's on making a sorceror you'd like to offer? Best bloodlines, feats etc. Even race would be ok - i am guessing Human for a feat but i already played a scene as an elf... might be tricky to get the DM allowing such a change but we can see.

Any idea's? Anyone? :smallsmile:

[Lonely Tylenol]

If you're playing Pathfinder Sorcerer, I'd really recommend playing a Gnome; the +2 CHA and +2 CON are critically important, as they're your two most desirable stats, and the -2 STR doesn't matter because it's your dump stat (and also because your STR is high enough to not have to worry about ability damage rendering you useless, even with the -2). The Small bonus to AC helps (if you select DEX as one of your 16 stats and CON instead as your 14, you get 14 AC off the bat, which is downright pleasant with Mage Armor at level 1). Bonus points if you were planning on going Illusionist.

Human is a strong second - not only can you simply choose to take the +2 CHA without incurring any penalties to another ability score, but you can also choose extra spells as your favored class bonus, which is a huge boon.

As for bloodlines, the Djinni bloodline gives you a powerful spell list, a decent 1st-level bloodline power (it doesn't scale well, but it does extend your spells known fairly well), and a cool capstone. I like the Shadow bloodline just for giving you access to the Shadow Evocation/Conjuration spells for free, which gives you much greater mileage on your spells known (essentially giving you nearly two whole schools for two spells), and has good synergies with Gnomes, but the abilities are mediocre, and it's not like you can't just learn those spells if you want them. Celestial has a decent spell list and some great abilities, and Undead is a personal favorite of mine. I must admit I'm not an expert on bloodlines, though.

I would invest the stats as follows (assume Gnome):

STR - 11 (9)
DEX - 16
CON - 14 (16)
INT - 13
WIS - 11
CHA - 16 (18)

Depends on whether you'd rather have more skills/day or a higher Will save, though.

[Corlindale]

Human is probably the best racial choice, simply because of the awesome favored class bonus you can get. The free feat and the option of +2 to Charisma are also nice, and the skill point is a decent boon too, as you won't have too many otherwise.

Gnome is nice too, for the reasons Tylenol covered. Elf is not too optimal, though their Spell Penetration bonus is nice. But it's not like it's unviable, if you'd really like to be an Elf.

As for Bloodlines, that really depends on what kind of caster you want to be. Arcane is certainly a solid choice for any sorceror - it gives you a little bit of everything and has a very nice spell list. Fey is fantastic for Enchantment-focused characters. Elemental or Draconic can be useful for blaster-types. But I suggest deciding on a theme for your sorceror before picking a bloodline.
Also consider that the Eldritch Heritage line of feats can potentially give you access to bloodline powers (but not Arcana) from a second bloodline, if you happen to fall in love with yet another set of powers.

As for feats it once again depends on what you want to do with him. Eventually you'll probably want Quicken Spell, but it'll be a while before you can use it. Persistent Spell is another great metamagic feat, especially if you're going to use a lot of Save or Lose spells. Spell Focus (+Greater) if you want to focus your sorceror further in a particular direction (like a Fey enchanter, for instance).

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Human is probably the best racial choice, simply because of the awesome favored class bonus you can get. The free feat and the option of +2 to Charisma are also nice, and the skill point is a decent boon too, as you won't have too many otherwise.

This, so much so. An extra spell known per level (albeit of one level less than your highest) is a huge boon. Similarly, I tend to go with Arcane for my bloodline, for the bonus spells and ability to use metamagic (at least, better than other sorcerers).

[Man With Dog]

The other option i have - of course is the Wizard.

I like the idea of the Batman Wizard (or at least the idea behind it) but i have very limited Arcance experience in 3.5 and 0 experience in Pathfinder which is where we are now.

Are Sorcerors on par with Wizards now a days (am pretty sure they wont be)
but any advice you can give (like above) - sorcerors, wizards, batman wizards, even Summoners if theyre worth it.


All eagerly read and greatly received.

[mootoall]

I'm personally a fan of the Protean and ... oh, one of the genie-like ones ... the one that gets you an acid energy attack as your first bloodline power. Protean I use because its first two spells are useful for gishy builds, which I love, and all of the genie ones because of the free Wish you don't have to spend your spells known on. There's also one of the that lets you use Lesser Wish as an SLA as a power ...

[ThunderCat]

In the hands of an experienced player, the wizard is still potentially more powerful and useful, especially if you have a reliable way of figuring out what the party will be up against each day. But the sorcerer is more than powerful enough, quite fun to play, and harder to screw up (as long as you choose a good set of spells known).

Race: Because the casting stat is so important, I generally wouldn't play a sorcerer as an elf, especially not without an 18 in my primary ability score. There is one exception, and that's a wildblooded sorcerer with the arcane bloodline (sage, which can be found in the sorcerer entry of the SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer)) which lets you use your intelligence instead of charisma for spells and other class features.

My favourite race for sorcerers is human, the extra spells known are just that good and the feat can be unbelievably handy. As others have mentioned, gnome is a solid choice too, as is the ifrit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monsters-as-pcs#TOC-Ifrit) if monstrous races are allowed. Elf is OK if you plan to use intelligence as your casting stat.

Bloodline: The bloodline depends on what you want with your character. For an elf, the sage variant of the arcane bloodline is the most optimal by far, and even if you plan to be cha based, the normal arcane bloodline is solid. Fey have some nice bonuses too, especially if you plan to use a lot of compulsion, and the aberrant is ideal if you want to focus on melee touch attacks. Other bloodlines make you better at blasting, give you defensive bonuses, and improve your physical prowess, but they almost all depend on which focus you choose for your character.

Feats: There are several options here. You might want to take a look at Noble Scion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/noble-scion), especially the Scion of War aspect. If you're int-based, Scion of Lore might be preferable, but in that case, Breadth of Experience (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/breadth-of-experience) is better. Metamagic feats can give you some much-needed versatility, and Improved Familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/improved-familiar---final-1) is almost a must if you have arcane bond as as a class feature. Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/collaborators/work-area/paizo-products/pathfinder-rpg-line/ultimate-magic/chapter-3-feats/eldritch-heritage) (and the greater and improved version) is ideal for grabbing whatever power most appeals to you, without being saddled with the whole bloodline, and Expanded Arcana (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-arcana) is always a solid choice.

Spells: Your choice of spells is the most important decision you'll make. Luckily, there are plenty of lists of the most useful spells in various guides and handbooks, so it should be easy enough to avoid gimping yourself completely. If you want to be most useful, resist the urge to specialise – that's for wizards who aren't harmed much by choosing 4-5 spells that are essentially variations of each other. Instead, grab the best and most generally useful spells on each level (if you play human, there should be spells enough to spare to choose a couple of them for flavour only), and make sure to have as many bases covered as possible.

For the early levels, I recommend sleep (switch at level 4) and grease as your 1st level spells known, and detect magic and light/dancing lights (I prefer the latter) among your cantrips known. Ghost sound, mage hand, and prestidigitation can be extremely useful if you're creative and/or your DM is into roleplaying. If your bloodline doesn't give you any alternative means of attack, choose acid splash to at least have something to fall back on when out of spells.

[McSmack]

I think the sorcerer is a really nice class, with bloodlines offering lots of options.

Depending on what you want there's lot of options. If you want a more wizardly character I'd recommend going human with the Arcane bloodline. Uber spells known and metamagic buffs.

The gnome pyromaniac alternate racial package is pretty nice. +1 CL on all fire spells. Combine that with draconic (red) bloodline and you can put out some nice blaster damage.

Ultimate magic has new bloodlines and the crossblooded(?) ACF lets you get more than one bloodline, albeit at a hefty cost.

It all really depends on what role you're looking to play.

[Gnaeus]

Ultimate magic has new bloodlines and the crossblooded(?) ACF lets you get more than one bloodline, albeit at a hefty cost.

I am really enjoying the Verdant bloodline for low level play. I will readily admit that it is weaker at high levels than some of the other options mentioned, but at high levels, you are a tier 2 full caster, so you should be rocking anyway. At low levels, on the other hand, being able to steal/disarm/trip 7-8 times per day with a +4-6 CMB at 15 foot range is pretty wonderful for foes with high saves. I completely shut down a druid 3 levels above me last weekend just by stealing his divine focus from across the room.

Crossblooded seems to be WAY too expensive for what it does. There MIGHT be a corner case in which being able to cherry pick from 2 bloodlines power sets is really critical to a particular build, but in almost all cases I think having a spell of your choice from each spell level is going to be stronger.

[CTrees]

The gnome pyromaniac alternate racial package is pretty nice. +1 CL on all fire spells. Combine that with draconic (red) bloodline and you can put out some nice blaster damage.


That's actually pretty nice at low levels, if you're wanting to go blasty. Level one Pyromaniac gnome (red) Draconic Sorceror casting Burning Hands deals 2d4+2 damage in an area. That fries goblins quite satisfactorily.

[Man With Dog]

This is all awesome help so all i can say is thankyou all very much.

Now i have a headache to work out what race to choose, choice of bloodlines and of cuorse, feats, spells and allocation of stats.
I can go human and get an 18 on my Charisma as i have 2x16's to play with.

I guess Sorceror will want to make Charisma primary (obv) then maybe Con for life? or Wis for important skill rolls? dex for ac?
I've always been a sucker for high dex but am open to changing my preference for a godo reason... like living.

[ThunderCat]

The two stats most people dump are wisdom and strength. Con is the default choice for second priority (after cha, of course), but casters focussing on rays, or who wish to have high AC and initiative, might go for dex instead. I personally prefer a higher int for extra skill points, but it's all a matter of taste.

[Curious]

If you really want a blaster build, an interesting choice is to use the cross-blooded bloodline (which givers you the bloodline arcana of both bloodlines) for Orc and Dragon. This gives you +2 to damage for each damage dice you have in a spell, but you'd better be human so you can make up for the spells lost by being cross-blooded.

[Ason]

This is all awesome help so all i can say is thankyou all very much.

Now i have a headache to work out what race to choose, choice of bloodlines and of cuorse, feats, spells and allocation of stats.
I can go human and get an 18 on my Charisma as i have 2x16's to play with.

I guess Sorceror will want to make Charisma primary (obv) then maybe Con for life? or Wis for important skill rolls? dex for ac?
I've always been a sucker for high dex but am open to changing my preference for a godo reason... like living.

As these folks have been saying, don't stress so much over the race, bloodline, etc. until you know what you want this character to do. If you want a touch-attack caster, that will lead to very different conclusions than if you go for an enchanter, summoner or other such thing. My advice is to start off by looking at the bloodlines, find one that interests you, figure out why it interests you and go from there- the other stuff will flow from that. For instance, if I know that I want my sorcerer to be decent at disguising himself while still being a potent, versatile caster, I might choose Rakshasa as my bloodline (disguise bonuses) and human as my race (extra spells for versatility). All of the bloodlines have their own flavor and special toys- what inspires you?

[Infernalbargain]

I thought crossblooded wasn't too bad until I realized that it delays you get another level on casting spells. Sure you get the slots, but they'll have to be filled with metamagic'd stuff.

I have to agree with others here, I'd almost write down your ideal spell list, then pick bloodline etc. and then edit things accordingly.

[Man With Dog]

Good News!!

I can change my race and just be introduced as a new character.

So overall... is Human the recommended race?
I am guessing the loss of any kind of low light etc shouldnt be too big a loss?

Or is gnome the go to race?
I realise the movement speed would be a little.. restrictive...

And in regards to what kind of character would i be?
I wouldnt mind being blasty blasty (however non optimal i realise that used to make and assume it still does)
However, i also wouldnt mind being Crowd Control-esque.

Blasty blasty is probably easier to play due to my low experience though?

[Leon]

I wouldnt mind being blasty blasty (however non optimal i realise that used to make and assume it still does)

It is not a matter of it being "optimal" to what others think, its a perfectly valid style of play and if its what you think you would enjoy then let no one stop you.

But its best to remember to keep a small selection of spells for utility in situations where needed and to not focus to heavily on one element type (our "fire" mage learned this the hard way with the Red Dragon story arc)


Human is good for the Stat boost where you want it and its other bonuses - plus its heck of a lot better then being a gnome.
But don't just get caught up choosing a race of its particular bonuses, if you like Dwarves or Elves play one if that's what you like and you'll play a better character than changing to a race that you don't like as much to just get a mechanical bonus.