Possible Gate Fix

[Mr. Zolrane]

So, while I've never personally experienced it, I've heard a lot of people complaining about how broken the Gate spell is, and I may have come up with a fix. The spell is basically the same in Pathfinder as it is in 3.5 (unless I missed something, please correct me if so) so any info on this thread can be applied to either. Note that this only applies to the "Calling" variant of the spell. The other, plane-shifty function works as normal.

Basically, the fix is three-fold: limit Gate's use, remove its usefulness as a mid-battle tactic and make players think before using it.

Limit Gate's Use:

Under my fix, a character may only use once per week (may change to per day, based on people's input).

Remove Its Usefulness as a Mid-battle Tactic:

Additionally, Gate requires twelve rounds and four people to cast (may change based on input). Only the initiator of the spell must know Gate, but all participants must have at least 1 rank in Spellcraft. Participants, starting with the initiator, must stand in a circle, and in clockwise order pass a Spellcraft check (DC to be determined based on HD and other factors if the DM wishes) once per round of the spell (12 in total)

Make Players Think Before Using It:

The casting fails if 3 out of 12 Spellcraft checks are failed, or 2 are failed consecutively. In the event of a failed casting, an outsider of an alignment opposed to that of the one the caster was trying to call and of comparable HD, will emerge from the Gate and relentlessly try to kill the caster until the outsider is killed or forced back to their own plane. If and when the caster is killed, the outsider instantly returns to their own plane.

What do you guys think? Too much? Not enough?

[Zale]

A group of Clerics attempts to summon a Solar in order to save a small town from an impending attack by a demonic army.


They fail, and summon a Balor. By the time the army gets there, all that's left is ash and dead bodies.


----

All in all, I would agree that it should take longer than a standard action.

[OracleofWuffing]

What do you guys think? Too much? Not enough?
Can I say, "both?"

The first thing I thought of was that you're basically rolling the caveats of Wish into Gate, and basically telling your players, "You can cast this spell, but it can backfire on you, and if it does backfire on you, you die." That might be fun in the Tomb of Horrors, but may not be a good representation of what many other players find fun.

The second thing is the Spellcraft check. Effectively, this makes it so a group that's only Wizards and Skillmonkeys has no worries about casting this spell, whereas a group with two classes that aren't Spellcraft-inclined just can't have this spell- that is, my spell's efficiency relies on the ability of the Fighter's 2+int. So, yeah, playing a melee class further drags down the party.

The result is, say, a party of a Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, and Ranger basically wants to avoid casting this spell at all costs for any reason- even perfectly "legit" ones. Meanwhile, Wizard, Wizard, Druid, Cleric are going to cast it every week (twice every week, depending on if two different Wizards get different "counters" on the 1/week limit) so they have someone to open up their canned beef.

The bottom line here, at least in my opinion, is that the "DEATH TO ALL FAILURES" clause is nerfing what I believe to be the intention of the spell, which is to call for some help when you know you're in over your head. (Granted, death isn't a big deal in a party that can already cast Gate, but it sounds like you want it to be.) Also, 1/week is a really shoddy limit: barring shenanigans where you adventure for one day and rest for six, there's the matter of items that would cast Gate for you... I presume this would be on the item's counter, and not yours. (As if it was your counter, this means an item that could cast gate multiple times just needs to be passed around the group for multiple casts in the same day.)

Really, just saying that creatures Gated in can't cast Gate or create items that cast Gate is typically good enough.

[AmberVael]

Hm, well, you could possibly make some disincentive for using Gate for summoning creatures... I dunno, like some hefty cost. Gold tends to be expendable though, so maybe not that. How about XP? Yeah, using Gate to call creatures could cost a large amount of xp, that would dissuade its use pretty well.

Oh wait, it already has that. :smalltongue:

[Zale]

What if they had to pay any exp costs that the called creature would expend for spells?

[Amnestic]

On the Make Players Think Before Using It section, I'd have a middleground between "works" and "summons opposing force". Increase the number of failed checks to summon the opposite to, say, 6 and have 3 failed checks to simply fizzle the spell. It still counts as being cast, but nothing happens.

[Mr. Zolrane]

A group of Clerics attempts to summon a Solar in order to save a small town from an impending attack by a demonic army.


They fail, and summon a Balor. By the time the army gets there, all that's left is ash and dead bodies.


----

All in all, I would agree that it should take longer than a standard action.

Note that the Balor would relentlessly attack the caster, and instantly planeshift back to the Abyss when the caster is killed. Worst case scenario the caster ends up dead. If the wording was unclear I apologize.

And frankly, there are a lot of spells that should take longer than a standard action. I personally believe, for example that most of the bread and butter blasting spells should be a full-round action.


Can I say, "both?"

The first thing I thought of was that you're basically rolling the caveats of Wish into Gate, and basically telling your players, "You can cast this spell, but it can backfire on you, and if it does backfire on you, you die." That might be fun in the Tomb of Horrors, but may not be a good representation of what many other players find fun.

Very true, but what I'm going for with this fix is to make Gate a last-ditch desperation move that you only do when you're cornered. As in, the kind of situation where you're surely going to die within the next couple of minutes if you don't do something drastic. In that situation, a chance of death is better than mostly-guaranteed death the would result from not casting it.




The second thing is the Spellcraft check. Effectively, this makes it so a group that's only Wizards and Skillmonkeys has no worries about casting this spell, whereas a group with two classes that aren't Spellcraft-inclined just can't have this spell- that is, my spell's efficiency relies on the ability of the Fighter's 2+int. So, yeah, playing a melee class further drags down the party.

That is a valid point. What alternative would you propose? I would prefer one that keeps the basic four-person casting, but makes it reasonably likely for participants other than the caster to pass the check.



The result is, say, a party of a Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, and Ranger basically wants to avoid casting this spell at all costs for any reason- even perfectly "legit" ones. Meanwhile, Wizard, Wizard, Druid, Cleric are going to cast it every week (twice every week, depending on if two different Wizards get different "counters" on the 1/week limit) so they have someone to open up their canned beef.

The bottom line here, at least in my opinion, is that the "DEATH TO ALL FAILURES" clause is nerfing what I believe to be the intention of the spell, which is to call for some help when you know you're in over your head. (Granted, death isn't a big deal in a party that can already cast Gate, but it sounds like you want it to be.) Also, 1/week is a really shoddy limit: barring shenanigans where you adventure for one day and rest for six, there's the matter of items that would cast Gate for you... I presume this would be on the item's counter, and not yours. (As if it was your counter, this means an item that could cast gate multiple times just needs to be passed around the group for multiple casts in the same day.)

I hadn't taken items into account. Maybe add the caveat that one person can only initiate one Gate spell per week, period.


Really, just saying that creatures Gated in can't cast Gate or create items that cast Gate is typically good enough.

Also a good idea.


Hm, well, you could possibly make some disincentive for using Gate for summong creatures... I dunno, like some hefty cost. Gold tends to be expendable though, so maybe not that. How about XP? Yeah, using Gate to call creatures could cost a large amount of xp, that would dissuade its use pretty well.

Oh wait, it already has that. :smalltongue:

Two things: One, the XP cost is nonexistent in Pathfinder and Two: 1000 XP for the 3.5 version isn't a huge deal at the level you'd be Gating in Solars. Sure it's something but not nearly enough.



On the Make Players Think Before Using It section, I'd have a middleground between "works" and "summons opposing force". Increase the number of failed checks to summon the opposite to, say, 6 and have 3 failed checks to simply fizzle the spell. It still counts as being cast, but nothing happens.

That's a good idea. I think I'll go with that.

[Aspenor]

Adding the clause in the summoning subschool to Gate that makes all creatures called by it refuse to cast spells or use SLA's that do or would cost XP if cast as spells should be plenty. This way you can still use it to call help, travel, or use it as a "no save you just die" effect.

[OracleofWuffing]

Requiring the four-person casting while also considering it an "I'm going to die anyways" action is counterproductive. At the level where Gate becomes possible, you're likely to see individual PCs drop faster than entire PC groups, so when you have the BBEG breathing down your neck, you likely already have a man down, rendering it impossible to cast.

There's also the matter of Leadership breaking the four-person casting, making it trivial to have enough people with the Spellcraft to help, but then again, the sky is blue, dinosaurs are extinct, and water makes things wet.

I'm not very fond of the multiple-people casting in and of itself for Gate... I mean, I know alignment's like armpits, but you're creating a situation where a LG Wizard can gate in a LG Solar with the assistance of three CEs. If I absolutely had to keep that aspect around, what I might consider would be to have the Spellcraft DC to be very, very high, and then for each additional person helping, the DC is mitigated to a limit... Furthermore, the additional people helping don't need to make a skill check, because, seriously, Skills are already spread too thin. In other words, if you have another person helping you, the DC is reduced by 20. 2-4 people, 35. 5 or more, 50. So, it would still possible for a Wizard who's optimized to hit it alone, but it's also easier for an unoptimized party to cast it (Only those aren't actual numbers because I really, really suck at Math and would get the actual numbers all wrong), and the army of Clerics versus demonic army is likely to succeed on casting it.

Still, though, there would be friction with a 1/week limit, because if I use my Gate on Sunday in a real, actual, emergency, it means I don't have it for Saturday when I have another real, actual, emergency unless I cheesed my rests. It can't really be an emergency button if it has a cooldown. :smallfrown:

[bloodtide]

You know an easy fix is to use the 2E version of Gate:

Second, the utterance of the spell attracts the attention of the sought-after dweller on the other plane. When casting the spell, the wizard must name the entity he desires to use the gate and come to the wizard's aid. There is a 100% certainty that something steps through the gate. Unless the DM has some facts prepared regarding the minions serving the being called forth by the gate spell, the being itself comes.
If the matter is trifling, the being might leave, inflict an appropriate penalty on the wizard, or attack the wizard. If the matter is of middling importance, the being can take some positive action to set matters right, then demand appropriate repayment. If the matter is urgent, the being can act accordingly and ask whatever is its wont thereafter, if appropriate. The actions of the being that comes through depend on many factors, including the alignments of the wizard and the being, the nature of his companions, and who or what opposes or threatens the wizard. Such beings generally avoid direct conflict with their equals or betters. The being gated in will either return immediately (very unlikely) or remain to take action. Casting this spell ages the wizard five years.

[Tvtyrant]

Just make it kill the caster instantly. You can summon a helper to bail out the party at any time; but at the price that you will have to be rezzed.

[Fuhrmaaj]

I think a fairly decent "patch" would be to have the wizard bribe the outsider as part of the casting with a gp-equivalent material (be creative). The cost of the bribe is related to the type of creature you summon, using this table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/treasure.htm#tableTreasureValuesperEncounter).

For the bribe, set the CR of the creature you plan to summon equal to the EL and the bribe is to the right of it. This bribe must be paid even if you cast gate with an item (candle of invocation, etc.). This means that if you plan to call a creature with Gate that you would have to account for the summon in your equipment. DMs are encouraged to return this wealth slowly as if casting Gate were a consumable, and are also encouraged to have different creatures require different bribes so that the character must plan in advance what they want to summon.

Also require that the caster can speak the native language of the creature he wishes to call (ie. not common). Casting tongues prior to casting Gate is acceptable (or having a permanent Tongues effect). Merely speaking a language the creature understand is not sufficient for this requirement.

Using the example of the Clerics summoning a Solar to save a small town from an impending army. The clerics plan to summon a Planetar, which is a good-aligned outsider so the native tongue is Celestial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/speakLanguage.htm). One of the Clerics learned Celestial at chargen because Celestial is a bonus language for Clerics, so he decides to take point on this spellcasting (ie. he spends the 1,000 XP).

In preparation for this planned casting, the Clerics were able to procure a +3 greatsword (which the Planetar uses for the battle, and keeps after the battle), a +3 heavy shield (symbolic of the defense task) and a helm made of gold which was made of almost 1,000gp melted down. The total cost is 28,000gp as per the chart.

I intentionally didn't use the Solar because it's CR 23 and I'm not sure how wealth works at epic levels. It's up to the DM how he plans to adjudicate the summoning of such powerful monsters (if he allows it).

Let me know what you think.

[Glimbur]

Just make it kill the caster instantly. You can summon a helper to bail out the party at any time; but at the price that you will have to be rezzed.

Anyone who can cast Gate should be about as useful as whatever you are Gating in, making this into a spell which would never be cast. In which case, it's easier just to ban the spell.

[Cruiser1]

Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) is balanced as is. The DM just needs to implement it and subsequent consequences correctly. :smallbiggrin:

Player: I Gate in a Solar.
DM: Okay...
Player: I command the Solar to cast Wish for me.
DM: Rolls d%
Solar: "Sorry mortal, I've already cast that today."
Player: I comm-
DM: Suddenly, *you* are Gated into what looks like a celestial courtroom. In the stands you see what looks like the Solar's five well-armed twin brothers all looking at you reproachfully. Off to the side you can see a Wizard in glowing white robes holding scrolls of Foresight and Time Stop, gazing in a scrying mirror at the location you just were. Before you is a 50 foot tall four winged Archon wearing a holy symbol of St. Cuthbert, who intones, "attempting to manipulate the upper planes for selfish gain is a most serious crime..."

Any creature with an ability as powerful as 1/day Wish will certainly cast it each day. On average you can say any random Solar has a 50% chance of having used its Wish already. And no, you can't choose to "Gate a Solar that hasn't cast Wish yet today", any more than you can choose to "Gate a weak willed Solar carrying a million gp that wants to give it all to me".

And with 3/day wish, every efretti is monitored by several powerful fellow LE entities. A PC who attempts to Gate, planar bind, or otherwise abuse an efretti will quickly attract the attention of powerful devils, who will be far less merciful than the Archons above. :smallamused:

[Glimbur]

Then it's a trap. Easier and kinder just to ban the calling aspect of the spell.

[jmelesky]

3.x had the XP cost for the spell. PF got rid of that, but you might consider granting negative levels as a side-effect of casting. Negative levels aren't a huge problem: they likely go away eventually, and can go away immediately with a restoration spell, but they're tangible, and a pain.

Alternately, temporary stat damage can have a similar effect (with the added danger of losing memorized spell slots).

[CTrees]

Then it's a trap. Easier and kinder just to ban the calling aspect of the spell.

That was a little bit of an extreme example, but I agree with the basic premise-Gate is balanced as written, but it requires the DM adjudication. The wizard summons a Solar, says 'I command you to cast Wish for me!' 'You dare command ME, mortal?! And for selfish, personal gain! How dare you!' Followed by a Gate out of there. Make the players actually negotiate/bribe appropriately, and it's balanced. All the shenanigans come from people just assuming whatever you call is your complete slave (or stacking Cha de/buffs to a ridiculous extent, which... that's a different problem).

[NichG]

I think a reasonable fix is the following:

- Remove the XP component to use Gate for calling
- Remove the 'called creature must follow caster's orders etc etc' clause
- Remove the 'called creature must come through' clause and replace with something that lets the creature know the conditions on the other side of the gate before agreeing. The gate doesn't actually manifest until they are willing to go through, preventing this from being used as an offensive 'bothering' tactic.
- Remove the 'no unique named entities' clause, replace with 'called creatures must be explicitly named, but an appropriate name can be determined with a Knowledge(Planes) check'.
- Add a 'negotiations mediated by Gate are magically binding' clause, or at least some sort of standard spell combo that would make that possible.

Now, the way Gate is used is one of two ways as follows:

Method 1:

- Caster uses Gate during downtime, negotiates with a particular powerful being for future services. The payment can be XP (the original XP component...) or some other resource or service. If this goes through, the creature is bound by the terms of the deal.
- Caster then uses Gate in the thick of battle. It's a standard action, per normal. He calls the creature he had previously made a deal with, which performs the agreed-upon service.

Method 2:

- Caster is in over his head, and so Gates in a creature he thinks would have a stake in the current situation.
- The creature comes through or doesn't at its own whim.
- If the creature helps, it demands appropriate payment after the fact (non-binding, but possibly demanded by threat or by guilt or whatever, depending on the creature).

Generally speaking, entities will not provide services that are worth more than they are paid. So if you want an Efreet to cast a Wish, you have to give him something he can't get with a Wish that is of comparable value (and if you say 'I'll help him use his other Wish', they have slaves for that, so no deal).

[tyckspoon]

That was a little bit of an extreme example, but I agree with the basic premise-Gate is balanced as written, but it requires the DM adjudication. The wizard summons a Solar, says 'I command you to cast Wish for me!' 'You dare command ME, mortal?! And for selfish, personal gain! How dare you!' Followed by a Gate out of there. Make the players actually negotiate/bribe appropriately, and it's balanced. All the shenanigans come from people just assuming whatever you call is your complete slave (or stacking Cha de/buffs to a ridiculous extent, which... that's a different problem).

Frankly.. Wish is not the problem. If you wanted Wishes, you got them somewhere between four to ten levels before you could cast Gate- the things are seriously all over the place. Gate's problems are primarily:
A: You can summon Epic creatures with it, thanks to the 2 HD/cl limit.
B: Creature you summon is immediately and incontrovertibly under your control.

Change those two- make it 1 HD/CL and make it so the creature you summon both knows roughly what you want it to do (eg, 'help us slay this demon' versus 'I don't feel like paying the XP for my own Wish) and can choose how to react to that request when it gets compelled through the Gate. There ya go. Functional Gate, as much as Calling spells can be.

[CTrees]

Huh... should've re-read before posting. Apparently it's been awhile since I've looked at gate (usually play at lower levels). I forgot about the immediate v. longer term service part. So, ignore my previous comment.

Strikes me, though, that with negotiation/appropriate payment/the ability to refuse requests the creature would normally refuse, it would be balanced. Summon a Solar to kill the lich, fine, no problem, the Solar should see that as advancing its interests as well. Try to chain-gate solars, and you're going to have a darn tough time of it, negotiating/bribing each in line.

[OracleofWuffing]

Before you is a 50 foot tall four winged Archon wearing a holy symbol of St. Cuthbert, who intones, "attempting to manipulate the upper planes for selfish gain is a most serious crime..."
Hey Steve! How's the kids? Nice to see you're still doing your usual job as always! Is Bob from accounting still the office party jester, or has he straightened up yet? Oh man, remember that Christmas party we had, you were SOOOO WASTED and- Oh, right, down to business. Good old business as usual, good old reliable Steve, always on the job. Anyway, yeah, it's not my fault that saving the world just so happens to benefit myself. You'll note this has been upheld in the previous Upper Planes Supreme Court Cases Oracle of Wuffing v Pelor, Oracle of Wuffing v Mechanus, Heironeous v Oracle of Wuffing, Oracle of Wuffing v Bahamut, Oracle of Wuffing v St. Cuthbert 1771, and Oracle of Wuffing v St. Cuthbert 1922. Any further discussion on this matter will require the Upper Planes to supply for my own defense, and as this is the Upper Planes, said attorney will need to be relied upon to provide castings of Gate for my defense lest we turn this into another mistrial. :smallbiggrin:


And no, you can't choose to "Gate a Solar that hasn't cast Wish yet today", any more than you can choose to "Gate a weak willed Solar carrying a million gp that wants to give it all to me".
You can, however, Gate a Solar upon the start of the day, when virtually all Solars would have yet to have a chance to expend their Wish SLA.

[Quietus]

My fairly easy solution would be : Include the no summoning/exp use clause from [summoned] monsters in [called] ones. Yeah, you can get a solar. Yeah, that's pretty hardcore. Abuse it and you'll wish you hadn't. And no, it can't cast wish or summon another solar for you.

[The Glyphstone]

I've always felt that the best Gate fix was to strip away the Immediate Actions clause completely, then rip out the Charisma check from the entire Planar Binding line. You either bargain with them for what they want or send them home, no trapping and debuffing them until you auto-win coercing them into servitude.

[Godskook]

And frankly, there are a lot of spells that should take longer than a standard action. I personally believe, for example that most of the bread and butter blasting spells should be a full-round action.

Sir, you are *NOT* The guy to be fixing the gate spell. Very few, if any, blast spells need even the smallest downgrade, especially the single-threat ones like Fireball. Spending a full-round action doing less damage than the party melee is a sucky way to spend your time. At least at a standard action, you can do things like maneuver or stand up. I mean hell, Warmage is a full tier lower than his compatriots(And the one of only two full-casters to fall below tier 3), Beguiler and Dread Necromancer, and the difference? He's got the blasting spells and they got good spells.

Yes, I was exaggerating in the last sentence, please don't make a post about that, cause I *do* understand that Warmage gets some decent spells, but decent in a tier 4 kind of way.

[stainboy]

I've always felt that the best Gate fix was to strip away the Immediate Actions clause completely, then rip out the Charisma check from the entire Planar Binding line. You either bargain with them for what they want or send them home, no trapping and debuffing them until you auto-win coercing them into servitude.


Yeah, that. That's also the 2e fix bloodtide proposed: the creature shows up, but it's not mechanically required to work for you.

If you gate in a solar to fight a pit fiend, the solar will probably help you. (And then possibly use its Wish SLA to give you a profound life-changing religious experience that may or may not be more inconvenient than fighting a pit fiend by yourself.) If you gate in a solar to fight a mithril golem that was guarding loot you wanted, the solar skips straight to the profound religious experience and then reprimands you for wasting its time.


Additional fix: Consider only allowing Gate to creatures that are extraplanar relative to the Material Plane. That should put another dent in the Free Vacation cheese.

[Gamer Girl]

I've always used the 2E version of Gate, that is whatever you summon is not controlled by you. You still have to bargain for it's help. I often do this as mostly pure role-playing. You, obviously have to summon something close to your alignment. If you ask for something reasonable, the summoned creature might just do it, depending on what the creature is and all. For example, most celestial will destroy undead if given the chance.

I also allow for the Truename variant, where they can call a specific creature if they know it's name.

[Mr. Zolrane]

Thanks, guys, this thread has given me some good ideas. I'm considering the 2e fix right now.

[NecroRick]

if players are casting spells that cost xp to instantly solve the adventure, simply dont grant them experience for that encounter (why should they get xp, the solar did all the work, give it the xp)

if they persist, dont grant them xp for that session.

for repeated offenders, dont grant xp for the module/story arc.

for determined recidivists, dont give other members in the party xp for the encounter.

for the irredeemable, dont grant any member of the party xp for the module.

Players loves them some rewards... to make the cost of the spell a real cost you cant just turn around at the end of the session and give them it all back on a big sulver platter.... you might as well give them all a big sloppy kiss as well, and a $50 gift voucher to thank them for the privilege of allowing you to be the DM

[The Glyphstone]

if players are casting spells that cost xp to instantly solve the adventure, simply dont grant them experience for that encounter (why should they get xp, the solar did all the work, give it the xp)

if they persist, dont grant them xp for that session.

for repeated offenders, dont grant xp for the module/story arc.

for determined recidivists, dont give other members in the party xp for the encounter.

for the irredeemable, dont grant any member of the party xp for the module.

Players loves them some rewards... to make the cost of the spell a real cost you cant just turn around at the end of the session and give them it all back on a big sulver platter.... you might as well give them all a big sloppy kiss as well, and a $50 gift voucher to thank them for the privilege of allowing you to be the DM

The problem is that becomes inconsistent. What if they beat the encounter using normal summoned monsters? Should the summons get their XP instead? Why would casting Wish to mimic Polar Ray (stupid, but they might do it) to kill a boss cost them their XP for the fight, while casting Polar Ray straight-out wouldn't?

[Mr. Zolrane]

if players are casting spells that cost xp to instantly solve the adventure, simply dont grant them experience for that encounter (why should they get xp, the solar did all the work, give it the xp)

if they persist, dont grant them xp for that session.

for repeated offenders, dont grant xp for the module/story arc.

for determined recidivists, dont give other members in the party xp for the encounter.

for the irredeemable, dont grant any member of the party xp for the module.

Players loves them some rewards... to make the cost of the spell a real cost you cant just turn around at the end of the session and give them it all back on a big sulver platter.... you might as well give them all a big sloppy kiss as well, and a $50 gift voucher to thank them for the privilege of allowing you to be the DM


The problem is that becomes inconsistent. What if they beat the encounter using normal summoned monsters? Should the summons get their XP instead? Why would casting Wish to mimic Polar Ray (stupid, but they might do it) to kill a boss cost them their XP for the fight, while casting Polar Ray straight-out wouldn't?

I think the best way to implement NecroRick's idea, should you find yourself inclined to do so is to just do a reality check: if it becomes obvious that they're just spamming Gate to B.S. their way through an encounter, rather than using it when appropriate, then the XP penalties come into play.

[Gamer Girl]

I think the best way to implement NecroRick's idea, should you find yourself inclined to do so is to just do a reality check: if it becomes obvious that they're just spamming Gate to B.S. their way through an encounter, rather than using it when appropriate, then the XP penalties come into play.

Be careful here. Nitpicking a players use of a spell or ability almost never turns out good. And the Dm and player will never agree on what is right and wrong.

The player will think that as they have the Gate spell, that they should be allowed to use it for whatever they want.

An easy example is the PC gates in a solar to take out some guards so the characters will be fresh for the big bad encounter inside. To a player, this is a good idea and good strategy, but many a DM would cry fowl and take away XP.

Or they gate in a monster as a distraction and then attack from behind. The Dm would then take away XP as the gate distraction was not fair?

It can become quickly that the player will feel that if they use gate it will always be wrong, as the DM rules most uses of it inappropriate.

[Mr. Zolrane]

Be careful here. Nitpicking a players use of a spell or ability almost never turns out good. And the Dm and player will never agree on what is right and wrong.

The player will think that as they have the Gate spell, that they should be allowed to use it for whatever they want.

An easy example is the PC gates in a solar to take out some guards so the characters will be fresh for the big bad encounter inside. To a player, this is a good idea and good strategy, but many a DM would cry fowl and take away XP.

Or they gate in a monster as a distraction and then attack from behind. The Dm would then take away XP as the gate distraction was not fair?

It can become quickly that the player will feel that if they use gate it will always be wrong, as the DM rules most uses of it inappropriate.

This is a valid point, and certainly, such problems could arise. I think you misunderstood my point somewhat, however. What I'm talking about is the constant and habitual abuse of Gate as a means of avoiding any and danger. Tough to quantify, but I think most DMs, if they look at it with an objective eye, should be able to identify such a pattern.

[CTrees]

An easy example is the PC gates in a solar to take out some guards so the characters will be fresh for the big bad encounter inside. To a player, this is a good idea and good strategy, but many a DM would cry fowl and take away XP.


I'm pretty sure the average DM would only cry fowl if the player gated in a celestial roc or something.

[Mr. Zolrane]

I'm pretty sure the average DM would only cry fowl if the player gated in a celestial roc or something.

Wow, I missed that. Well played, sir. 3 Internetz for you.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm pretty sure the average DM would only cry fowl if the player gated in a celestial roc or something.

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[Doug Lampert]

Hm, well, you could possibly make some disincentive for using Gate for summoning creatures... I dunno, like some hefty cost. Gold tends to be expendable though, so maybe not that. How about XP? Yeah, using Gate to call creatures could cost a large amount of xp, that would dissuade its use pretty well.

Oh wait, it already has that. :smalltongue:

No it doesn't. There is no hefty cost because at level 17 1,000 XP is NOT a hefty cost.

It's a trivial cost dwarfed by the XP EVERY memeber of the party gets for winning a SINGLE patrol encounter that's supposed to be fairly trivial in the first place.

Then consider that you're using it on boss encounters, not routine patrol. (Or if you are using it on routine patrol encounters you can solo them and skip the rest of the party and gain XP even faster). And if you do drag the rest along then XP is a river, if you fall behind it comes even faster.

Increased XP penalties for "inappropriate" use have already been hit by others, and as they've pointed out the solution is simple and straightforward. KILL any spell-granted ability to compell a called creature.

DougL