Level Distribution?

[sapmarten]

In the average campaign setting (i.e., Faerun & Eberron), what's the distribution of levels among the populace? What percentile is level one? What percentile is level 20? Level 30?

[Big Fau]

Greyhawk: Generally all over the place. The modules are the best way to get an idea of it.

Eberron: Most NPCs never exceed 4th. It's very rare for them to reach 8th, and even more rare for there to be an Epic-level character (pre-4E, the highest level character in the ECS was a TREE with 20 levels in Druid). The Lord of Blades was 11th IIRC, and Vol is 17th.

Faerun: Everyone and their grandparents are Epic, except for the party.

[ericgrau]

There's something on this in the DMG in the NPC section, check there.

IIRC roughly 80% of the people are commoners, 80% of what's remaining are level 1 in an NPC class or maybe fighter or rogue, 80% of what's left is level 1 in another PC class. Roughly 80% of those are a civilized class in a city (e.g., cleric), or a wilderness class (e.g., druid) in nature. Paladins and monks are more uncommon. Going above level 1 is quite a bit rarer. Most of the rabble is level 1-3. 5 is a captain or elite soldier or other person that excels in his field. There are a lot in a good sized city but it's a countable number. 11+ is legendary and thus very rare, but there will often be stories about these select few.

[Alleran]

In the average campaign setting (i.e., Faerun & Eberron), what's the distribution of levels among the populace? What percentile is level one? What percentile is level 20? Level 30?
Faerun: The distribution is generally the same as base D&D. Epic-level characters aren't supposed to be any more common than any other setting, though they have a tendency to get more books written about them because those sell better (WotC and Elminster, I'm looking at you).

This has the effect of their being foregrounded a lot. Examples being the Seven Sisters (despite the fact that any 20th level PC wizard with a modicum of optimisation would likely kick them into next week in a one-on-one fight) or the aforementioned Elminster. Drizzt, for reference, is a 16th level character (also poorly built). Those are some of the more prominent good NPCs.

On the evil side, some of the more prominent ones are in the Zhentarim (Fzoul and Manshoon, specifically). There's also the dragons, which as with any setting can range over the entire spectrum.

Then there's the City of Shade (the seven Princes are all 20-25, with Telamont himself at 35), but it is supposed to be somewhat divided (i.e. not a monolithic entity) according to Greenwood. The highest level character in Faerun outside of deities is Ioulaum (an undead lich Elder Brain with 60-65 HD, 40-45 of those HD being in spellcasting classes), followed by Larloch (46th level lich).


Eberron: Pretty sure Eberron is supposed to be different from the standard D&D layout. There aren't that many epic-level characters in Khorvaire at all. Vol is a 16th level half-dragon lich, which would bring her up to CR 23, I think. Oalian is a tree and doesn't move around, while Jaela is only 18th level inside Flamekeep (Melysse Miron is a 21st level cleric, but that's only in Flamekeep as well and Melysse herself is currently trapped in Dreadhold). There are some other quite high level characters, but they generally only exist in the background and aren't often mentioned. Once you get to Sarlona and its like, though, then the number of higher-level NPCs starts climbing (Haze-of-Death is CR 26). It probably peaks with Argonnessen, which in addition to being full of dragons of all ages happens to contain the city of Io'lokar.

And Io'lokar is ridiculous. It's only one city, but it outpaces pretty much everything else in the setting (and a lot of things in other settings as well). The average level of the lowest Io'lokar citizen is between 9 and 12. From there it scales up to, as I recall, 13-15, then 16-17, then 18-19, then 20+ (the city is divided into five tiers; the second tier is where the "average professional citizen" sits). The high council of the city includes a 29th level character.

That's ahead of anything besides (some of) the Lords of Dust and Rakshasa Rajahs. The latter of whom are literally godlike, and I can't think of any Greyhawk NPC at all who is near them. Mordenkainen is only 27th level, and Iggwilv is 30th level. Sul Khatesh (the Rajah statted out in Dragon #337) is a Wiz 36 / Acm 4 with the powers and abilities of roughly a DvR 7 lesser deity. All the Rajahs are sealed up behind wards that are exactly as strong as the plot needs them to be to run a campaign.

[Firechanter]

There's something on this in the DMG in the NPC section, check there.

However, these DMG tables are crap and should best be ignored, since they don't blend well with a bunch of other rules. The old bromide is that of a cat or rat being able to kill a level 1 commoner -- so as per these tables, these commoners need to be really careful or they'll die like flies when they piss off a common housecat. Hopping down from a 10ft elevation? Almost certain death.

In my games, a young adult is typically level 3. Then increases levels with age and experience. Most of the adult populace is in the range between 3 and 7 or so. Then the crowd thins, and only few NPCs are levels 11+, but they still can go all the way to 20.

[Yora]

Those tables also end up with Commoners as the highest level NPCs in a settlement, way higher than the wizards and clerics.

[sonofzeal]

However, these DMG tables are crap and should best be ignored, since they don't blend well with a bunch of other rules. The old bromide is that of a cat or rat being able to kill a level 1 commoner -- so as per these tables, these commoners need to be really careful or they'll die like flies when they piss off a common housecat. Hopping down from a 10ft elevation? Almost certain death.
Housecat vs Commoner is roughly 50/50, depending on your starting assumptions, so "die like flies" is inappropriate (but you still wouldn't want to risk it without protective gear).

The first 10' falling is nonlethal, so zero chance of death. The second 10' can only do 1d6 lethal, which has greater than 50% odds to knock you out, but can't possibly kill you. The third 10' could possibly kill you, but you'd have to be extremely unlucky. The fourth 10' still has slightly less than a 50% chance of killing you. The fifth 10' makes it probable though, and the sixth 10' makes it all but certain.

Even a commoner needs to fall 50' before they stand a good chance of instant death.

[Firechanter]

Sure, let's get all hung up on technicalities. So I should have written "11ft", silly me. That's 1d6 damage, enough for a 50% chance to knock a Commoner 1 into the negatives. Once there, he needs medical attention within less than 1 minute (note that I never wrote "instant death", only "almost certain death"). Granted, he has a chance of about 50-60% to stabilize before hitting -10.
Still, that's a total death chance of ~25% for a less than four metre drop. Not "almost certain" in fact, but more than I would be willing to believe.

[sonofzeal]

Sure, let's get all hung up on technicalities. So I should have written "11ft", silly me. That's 1d6 damage, enough for a 50% chance to knock a Commoner 1 into the negatives. Once there, he needs medical attention within less than 1 minute (note that I never wrote "instant death", only "almost certain death"). Granted, he has a chance of about 50-60% to stabilize before hitting -10.
Still, that's a total death chance of ~25% for a less than four metre drop. Not "almost certain" in fact, but more than I would be willing to believe.
No. Just.... no. Not even close. Did you even read my post?

- A commoner has a 25% chance to effectively reduce the fall by 10 feet.
- The first 10 feet are nonlethal anyway
- If the commoner only barely gets knocked into negatives, they're unlikely to die.


TOTAL RESULT
10' drop - 0% fatality rate
20' drop - 17% fatality rate
30' drop - 42% fatality rate
40' drop - 68% fatality rate
50' drop - 85% fatality rate
60' drop - 96% fatality rate
70' drop - 99% fatality rate
80' drop - 99.8% fatality rate

You say "almost certain death" at 11'. I say, from this, that "almost certain death" requires 60' or more. Even at 50', we've still got about one in seven surviving; not worth betting on, but far from certain. The death rate only passes 50% somewhere between 30 and 40 feet. That's about 10 meters, and I'd consider that entirely reasonable.

[Greenish]

Eberron demographics. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a)

[Safety Sword]

No. Just.... no. Not even close. Did you even read my post?

- A commoner has a 25% chance to effectively reduce the fall by 10 feet.
- The first 10 feet are nonlethal anyway
- If the commoner only barely gets knocked into negatives, they're unlikely to die.


TOTAL RESULT
10' drop - 0% fatality rate
20' drop - 17% fatality rate
30' drop - 42% fatality rate
40' drop - 68% fatality rate
50' drop - 85% fatality rate
60' drop - 96% fatality rate
70' drop - 99% fatality rate
80' drop - 99.8% fatality rate

You say "almost certain death" at 11'. I say, from this, that "almost certain death" requires 60' or more. Even at 50', we've still got about one in seven surviving; not worth betting on, but far from certain.

I'd like to point out that at 30' a 42% death rate is still extremely high risk.

I wouldn't like to be the one rolling d100 and trying to get under 42 OR DIE!

[sonofzeal]

I'd like to point out that at 30' a 42% death rate is still extremely high risk.

I wouldn't like to be the one rolling d100 and trying to get under 42 OR DIE!
Agreed. That's still a three story drop though. Unless you're taking falls or very lucky, that's a significant risk of head trauma. Honestly, a 30' fall onto rock in a pre-industrial society is probably going to have more than a 42% death rate, but it might be more a matter of infection and/or internal bleeding.

Still, point is even a 20' drop is fairly safe for a commoner in D&D, and that's as much as we can expect them to ever be facing in the normal course of things. You can definitely die, but most people will recover in a few days and some will be able to walk away from it.

(Not that I expect D&D to be anything resembling a good simulation of actual life, but I think some of the dire pronouncements reflect a lack of understanding of the rules and/or statistics.)

[Safety Sword]

(Not that I expect D&D to be anything resembling a good simulation of actual life...

Isn't that why we play it in the first place? :smallwink:

[KillianHawkeye]

NOTE: The first d6 of falling damage is nonlethal ONLY when you deliberately jump down. Actual accidental falling is lethal from the get go.

EDIT: Or also if you fall onto soft ground or mud, or other yielding surface. Falling into water also has its own special rules.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#falling

[ericgrau]

I don't think the fight of a commoner vs. housecat should be the gold standard for setting your NPC levels, but maybe that's just me.

[Feytalist]

In the average campaign setting (i.e., Faerun & Eberron), what's the distribution of levels among the populace? What percentile is level one? What percentile is level 20? Level 30?

The greater percentage of the setting is going to be along the lines of level 1 commoner/expert/aristocrat. However, the average of "interactive" population, that is, those that the PC's will interact with, will be significantly higher. Sad fact, the common plebeians don't matter much.

Epic level character percentages will be negligible, despite them being the heroes that get written about, as another poster said.

[Firechanter]

No. Just.... no. Not even close. Did you even read my post?

- A commoner has a 25% chance to effectively reduce the fall by 10 feet.

:smallsigh:
Reducing your fall requires a Tumble check, which is a Trained Only skill, so the commoner can't even try unless he for some reason bought Tumble as cross-class (and seriously, that's just not plausible).

I did revoke my "almost certain death" statement already in my previous post. Still, the 25% are correct. Also, what Killian said about jumping vs. falling, so technically he'd risk death at 25% just falling off a chair.

[sonofzeal]

:smallsigh:
Reducing your fall requires a Tumble check, which is a Trained Only skill, so the commoner can't even try unless he for some reason bought Tumble as cross-class (and seriously, that's just not plausible).

I did revoke my "almost certain death" statement already in my previous post. Still, the 25% are correct. Also, what Killian said about jumping vs. falling, so technically he'd risk death at 25% just falling off a chair.

Your original quote that I was refuting, in case you don't remember:

Hopping down from a 10ft elevation? Almost certain death.
Emphasis mine.

Jumping rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm)

Jumping Down
If you intentionally jump from a height, you take less damage than you would if you just fell. The DC to jump down from a height is 15. You do not have to get a running start to jump down, so the DC is not doubled if you do not get a running start.

If you succeed on the check, you take falling damage as if you had dropped 10 fewer feet than you actually did.

Falling rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm)

If a character deliberately jumps instead of merely slipping or falling, the damage is the same but the first 1d6 is nonlethal damage. A DC 15 Jump check or DC 15 Tumble check allows the character to avoid any damage from the first 10 feet fallen and converts any damage from the second 10 feet to nonlethal damage. Thus, a character who slips from a ledge 30 feet up takes 3d6 damage. If the same character deliberately jumped, he takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 2d6 points of lethal damage. And if the character leaps down with a successful Jump or Tumble check, he takes only 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 1d6 points of lethal damage from the plunge.

Finally, if someone falls off a chair, it isn't going to matter unless the chair is enormous. Falls are measured in 10' increments, so a 2' fall is one fifth of an increment.

Basic rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm)

Rounding Fractions
In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger.

Exception: Certain rolls, such as damage and hit points, have a minimum of 1.

So, no damage unless it's a 10' fall, and even then it's merely nonlethal if you're "hopping down". And it doesn't go up again until you reach 20'.

[Firechanter]

Alright, I'm conceding your point there. Looks like I forgot a thing or two in the rules. Credit where credit is due.

That said, Commoner-1s (and by extension, 1st-level anythings) are still silly on so many levels, that I stand by my original advice to ignore the DMG demographics tables. ^^

[sonofzeal]

Alright, I'm conceding your point there. Looks like I forgot a thing or two in the rules. Credit where credit is due.

That said, Commoner-1s (and by extension, 1st-level anythings) are still silly on so many levels, that I stand by my original advice to ignore the DMG demographics tables. ^^
Oh, totally agreed that you get some real silliness. My favorite is Know:nature checks to identify common types of animals, and how difficult that is for commoners - or, indeed, most characters in the game. That's more a flaw of the system than a problem with Commoner-1's, though.

[jvluso]

That said, Commoner-1s (and by extension, 1st-level anythings) are still silly on so many levels, that I stand by my original advice to ignore the DMG demographics tables. ^^

Would you be surprised to know that you are probably 1st level (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html), and also likely to be a commoner?

That article is very good for showing just how powerful different levels are. In short, in our world, most people are 1st level, though second or third is not too uncommon, 4th is rare, and the highest level people to have walked our earth were probably 5th level.

[sapmarten]

Would you be surprised to know that you are probably 1st level (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html), and also likely to be a commoner?

That article is very good for showing just how powerful different levels are. In short, in our world, most people are 1st level, though second or third is not too uncommon, 4th is rare, and the highest level people to have walked our earth were probably 5th level.

Can I be an adept? Please? :smallsigh:

[Bhaakon]

Would you be surprised to know that you are probably 1st level (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html), and also likely to be a commoner?

That article is very good for showing just how powerful different levels are. In short, in our world, most people are 1st level, though second or third is not too uncommon, 4th is rare, and the highest level people to have walked our earth were probably 5th level.

Higher than that. There's at least one man who supposedly soloed an elephant in melee (and without magical items, I assume).

[Firechanter]

Would you be surprised to know that you are probably 1st level (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html), and also likely to be a commoner?

I know that article - it's been around a few years - and I consider it a load of bull. There are a few - really few - good points in there, hidden in a sea of chaff and false conclusions.

The whole article isn't really worth my time, but the very first nit I'll pick is that about carrying capacities; for example when I was in the army, in basic we were required to march 30km in 5 hours (i.e. roughly 4 miles per hour) carrying some 35kg (~75 lbs) of equipment (rucksack, harness, weapon etc.) in combat formation, and not on flat terrain but up and down the hills. We "weren't happy" about it but we still did it. The poor comrades who were drafted in winter had to do the same on snowed-in roads wearing army ski boots. w00t.

Ah well, I could go on, but as I said... not worth getting worked up about.

[Greenish]

Higher than that. There's at least one man who supposedly soloed an elephant in melee (and without magical items, I assume).Lucky rolls. :smalltongue: