How to improve a players roleplay

[Zeikstraal]

I have a player in my group who doesnt roleplay. He plays D&D for 1.5 years now.
I started DMing again and tomorrow will be the 2nd session. He plays a Dwarven fighter who Dual wields 2 Dwarven Waraxes. His previous character was exactly the same. Except for his name then.
And that is his character concept.

If someone asks him something he only responds with; Yes, No, Maybe or I dont know.
I have tried to get him to roleplay by giving him a bad dream( realy, realy awful) with torturing and let him kill his beloved ones. He just responds with: hmmm my rest wasnt that good, but Im oke.

The Villain had a weapon to who called for that player. I told him about a weapon that was crafted by his great great overgrandpa or something. And that the weapon has being missed for a couple of decades. He said: Hey thats my weapon. The villain said it wasnt, cus he had killed the wielder 60 years ago. The player responded with the same sentance over and over again.

As a player I tried to get him to roleplay numerous times. But faillure.

His characters never have an opinion about anything. Every character he played has the same personality, or they all dont have, depands an how your looking at it.
When I ask for a Player background he told me to read 3 books where his character is based upon.

Does the Playground have any suggestions? Or is this a hopeless case?

[Merk]

It sounds like he might just not be interested in that aspect of the game. I think trying to "improve" his roleplay doesn't sound like it would improve his enjoyment of the game. My advice would be to roleplay the NPC's as best as you can and interact well with the PCs, and then if he warms up to the idea then he'll learn from example.

[Mr. Zolrane]

My DM had an interesting trick for fixing this problem: something called "DM Points." DM Points could be redeemed for feats, ability points, or anything we could think of that the DM approved (and he preferred it to be something outside the box, and as such, such things were generally cheaper). One of the weekly "DM Awards" (winning the Awards gets you Points) was "Best RP." One of the reasons he did this was to get the sorcerer player who wasn't much into RP to participate in that aspect of the game. It worked for the most part. He still wasn't the most dramatic roleplayer in the world, be he got into it and it enriched the game for everybody.

[kamikasei]

Is the player unhappy? Is he making other players unhappy?

Have you asked him why he plays the way he does?

[Amnestic]

Roleplaying EXP tends to do the trick I've found.

[Mr. Zolrane]

Roleplaying EXP tends to do the trick I've found.

This. Frankly I think this should be standard in any game.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Roleplaying EXP tends to do the trick I've found.

Agreed. Though the DM Point system is kind of nifty idea. I've never herd of it before. Every once in a while a little bonus EXP or Gold for good roleplaying is a solid idea. If you're targeting one player in particular who doesn't much go for the RP idea, then remember to start with your standards lower for them and build up.
If they don't like RP at all then perhaps switching groups would be better for them. I had the opposite problem in several groups that just liked to kill things when I played for the RP. Groups and individual players won't always see eye to eye.

[Zeikstraal]

Yep since my game we are doing Roleplay Xp.
I also introduced 'Combat Roleplay' instead of declaring an attack, and he was pretty fond of it.
So Im asking myself why in combat and not outside?

[Darth Stabber]

I would use action points if you are playing outside of eberron (or even if you are in eberron, though in that setting you already have action points so the impact would be reduced). They are a nice bonus when you need it, but don't have the risk that a lasting gain like a feat would be (I would never need to dip fighter again). Giving these on the spot, and giving rp exp at the end of sessions could really encourage RP.

[Mr. Zolrane]

I also introduced 'Combat Roleplay' instead of declaring an attack, and he was pretty fond of it.

Care to expand on that a bit?




So Im asking myself why in combat and not outside?

This dude just seems to be a more mechanics oriented character at best, and at worst someone who has, if only subconsciously, bought into the Stormwind Fallacy and thinks RP will make him suck in fights somehow.

[kamikasei]

So Im asking myself why in combat and not outside?
It might be useful to ask him that.

[Zeikstraal]

Sure. Instead of declaring an attack and roll the dice. You will tell what you will do. How you attack, where you hit the monster. Or how the monster block or dodges your attack, well I will say that.
And if you wanna do fancy moves like jumping from a 30ft rock and attack the monster. I will give you bonuses if you are creative, with enviroment, etc.

[Darth Stabber]

It might be useful to ask him that.

99% of the time that is the best course of action (any you usually know before hand if it's not, and you really don't want to hang out with those people in the first place).

[jmelesky]

Roleplaying EXP tends to do the trick I've found.

I must say, i've sworn off individual XP. It's too much bookkeeping, and too easy to get hurt feelings.

One XP total for the whole party. If someone new comes along, they start behind and get double XP till they catch up. Then back to a single total. Makes my life so much easier.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Sadly most of my experience ends up coming from roleplaying, as I'm generally the support type character among the Optimizers. It's hard to take part in the battle when the thing is already riddled with dagger holes that are frozen, burnt or any combination of the two. Sometimes my character pokes the corpse with a stick, just to say he took part.

[Mr. Zolrane]

I must say, i've sworn off individual XP. It's too much bookkeeping, and too easy to get hurt feelings.

Honestly, anyone who's upset that they got less RP XP than another player ought to, unless there is a serious and obvious oversight on the DM's part be enough of an adult to recognize that someone did better than them that session.

[jmelesky]

It's not about single-sessions, it's about suddenly noticing, ten sessions later, that you're a level behind everyone else. I've yet to meet anyone who responds to that revelation entirely rationally.

[Whammydill]

"The floggings will continue until role-playing improves!"

[Seerow]

It's not about single-sessions, it's about suddenly noticing, ten sessions later, that you're a level behind everyone else. I've yet to meet anyone who responds to that revelation entirely rationally.

But when you're behind in level, you gain extra xp from encounters, so it balances out in the end. You'll almost never fall more than 1 level behind.

[FMArthur]

One thing to deal with when doing RP XP is the ambiguity of the whole thing. Should the Rogue get more XP than everyone else because he has the skillset to do things that the others consider to be just part of his job as a party member? Should only "successful" roleplaying be rewarded? How is success determined? Does the loud and boistrous Barbarian who roleplays constantly and entertainingly never get anything because it doesn't improve social relations? What about the Ninja with no social skills who guards the whole transaction from the shadows? What does he get?

All roleplaying XP does is reward certain styles of roleplay more than others. I'd rather that at least the roleplaying aspect of character building not be something to be 'gamed'. It's already heartbreaking to see that CN characters with no attachments are considered optimal by players. There shouldn't be an optimal personality.

[Deathslayer7]

Rather than give out "XP" do a rewards system. For any cool/awesome RP/interaction or unique solution to a problem, give them a point. They can then use this point for rewards as stated previously.

I find that just giving out EXP doesn't work because not everyone can make it to the session on time, and there's usually one person missing from a session at least. So it is easier jut to do a plot type of thing level up than doing individual exp for 8 different players.

A rewards system for 8 different players is a lot easier to keep track of though and gives incentive. Offer say 5 points to trade in for a feat or 1 point for 1,000 gp or something along those lines.

[Sillycomic]

bought into the Stormwind Fallacy and thinks RP will make him suck in fights somehow.

He's playing a dual wielding fighter; he doesn't need the stormwind fallacy to suck at fighting.

Maybe he just doesn't have that much experience with role playing. You say he's been playing for 1.5 years, but has he played with different groups, different systems?

Nothing changes your perspective on how to role play quite like switching the game. Try playing Cuthulhu or Paranoia for a few sessions, that should change his opinion on "role playing" versus "hitting stuff with my axe."

How does everyone else in the group fit into this whole role playing aspect? How do you run your game, is it hack'n'slash or political mystery plot? Half and half?

[jmelesky]

But when you're behind in level, you gain extra xp from encounters, so it balances out in the end. You'll almost never fall more than 1 level behind.

Perhaps it's worked out for you. Perhaps i'm just bad at giving individual XP. Either way, my experiences with individual XP have always been bad (dating back to the AD&D, where it was assumed). On the flip side, i haven't seen any problems with group XP so far.

It's one fewer potential incentives, but there are plenty more, so it works out.

[Zeikstraal]

He's playing a dual wielding fighter; he doesn't need the stormwind fallacy to suck at fighting.

Maybe he just doesn't have that much experience with role playing. You say he's been playing for 1.5 years, but has he played with different groups, different systems?

Nothing changes your perspective on how to role play quite like switching the game. Try playing Cuthulhu or Paranoia for a few sessions, that should change his opinion on "role playing" versus "hitting stuff with my axe."

How does everyone else in the group fit into this whole role playing aspect? How do you run your game, is it hack'n'slash or political mystery plot? Half and half?

Yep he sucks badly, he hits at +2/+2. But if he hits, and rolls good with his dice, he does the most damage of the party. Paladin hits on +8 with power attack and only does 2 damage less.
He actualy complained about other characters in previous games. That my fighter never got hit by an attack. And that my other fighter did more damage than his barbarian. Maybe he shouldnt put those 6 points on his charisma so his intimidate wouldnt suck. But thats an other story.

He plays the 1.5 years with our group, hes a friend of us fore some years now. The other players just roleplay, could be better, but at least they do it.
I am trying to work towards the political aspect. First session was a lot of combay, but that was mostly to let their characters shine.
Im trying to give every player a "personal quest" before the real work begins. Im planning to let the party go to an abandoned dwarven stronghold, and let the player discover that the stronghold was the place of his ancestors.

[Mr. Zolrane]

It's not about single-sessions, it's about suddenly noticing, ten sessions later, that you're a level behind everyone else. I've yet to meet anyone who responds to that revelation entirely rationally.

But when you're behind in level, you gain extra xp from encounters, so it balances out in the end. You'll almost never fall more than 1 level behind.

I was going to say it, but Seerow beat me to it. Well played sir.


"The floggings will continue until they stop being amusing. Which is never."

Fixed that for ya :smalltongue:


One thing to deal with when doing RP XP is the ambiguity of the whole thing. Should the Rogue get more XP than everyone else because he has the skillset to do things that the others consider to be just part of his job as a party member? Should only "successful" roleplaying be rewarded? How is success determined? Does the loud and boistrous Barbarian who roleplays constantly and entertainingly never get anything because it doesn't improve social relations? What about the Ninja with no social skills who guards the whole transaction from the shadows? What does he get?

All roleplaying XP does is reward certain styles of roleplay more than others. I'd rather that at least the roleplaying aspect of character building not be something to be 'gamed'. It's already heartbreaking to see that CN characters with no attachments are considered optimal by players. There shouldn't be an optimal personality.

No, no, no, I don't know what experiences you've had with RP XP, but a good DM gives out RP XP for RP that is true to the character (within certain bounds of course "I'm just playing my character is often tool numero uno for the dickwad party member killer.") Sure, the rogue gets RP XP if they attempt to be a rogue-- hunt for traps, take care of the shady, sketchy end of things and bluff their way out of fights they can't win. Indeed, the boisterous barbarian should be rewarded for being boisterous and barbaric (if indeed that is his character, this is not universal; I recently played a naive and well-mannered barbarian and he was great fun, but I digress). And yes, the stoic ninja who guards dutifully from the shadows should be rewarded for that too. All these things merit RP XP if they are done in a consistent and compelling way. That's a hard thing to quantify, so it drives the number crunchers crazy, but when you're at the table, experiencing good RP, you know. And a good DM should recognize it when he or she sees it, and reward the player accordingly.

*rant*

[Greenish]

Yep he sucks badlyPoint him to Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (CAdv) and Exotic Weapon Master (CW). Also to this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358), since he'll be wanting something from it.

[Zeikstraal]

Point him to Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (CAdv) and Exotic Weapon Master (CW). Also to this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358), since he'll be wanting something from it.

we are playing Pathfinder, but I will check them and maybe allow them.
The party cant rely on just one Paladin, who needs to Tank, Heal and do damage.
The party further excists of a Halfling Bard, he made his character that crappy that the only thing he can do properly is Inspire Courage. We have an Halfling Rogue, who put her lowest score an Intelligence and who trade Trapfinding for a lame sleight of hand abbility. We have another Dwarf, this one is a Ranger who refuses to take Precise Shot.

I have to give credit too our 2 Weapon Fighting friend, that he is the only one, besides the Pally, who tries to be affective.

[FMArthur]

It will be hard for him, make no mistake. Oversized TWF is more just for making a particular style work at all and is otherwise considered to be incredibly subpar. Consider the gain he would be paying a whole feat for: in normal TWF, he can wield one one-handed weapon (d8 at best, +strength) and one light weapon (d6 at best, +0.5 strength). Taking a feat to bump that one off-hand attack from a d6 to a d8 is a barely noticable improvement.

It beats the alternative of him taking -4/-4 for doing it without the feat, but that's only because doing what he's apparently been doing all along is incredibly inefficient. Having a Bard around has probably helped to bring this in line with the regular -2/-2 for TWF, but that's the Bard being great and should not be a consideration for how good this one character is. And just for the luxury of making his chosen fighting style keep up with a normal Barbarian with a two-hander and no feats, he has to keep hemorrhaging feats in order to get more attacks for a high BAB.

[Greenish]

It will be hard for him, make no mistake. Oversized TWF is more just for making a particular style work at all and is otherwise considered to be incredibly subpar. Consider the gain he would be paying a whole feat for: in normal TWF, he can wield one one-handed weapon (d8 at best, +strength) and one light weapon (d6 at best, +0.5 strength). Taking a feat to bump that one off-hand attack from a d6 to a d8 is a barely noticable improvement.Hence one combines it with EWM's Uncanny Blow for better PA returns (though you'd have to convert it to PF's Power Attack).

Though since in PF you can't adjust PA, the TWF penalty hurts more.

[Edit]: Though given the rest of the party, he shouldn't have huge problems keeping up. :smallamused:

[FMArthur]

Hence one combines it with EWM's Uncanny Blow for better PA returns (though you'd have to convert it to PF's Power Attack).

Though since in PF you can't adjust PA, the TWF penalty hurts more.

[Edit]: Though given the rest of the party, he shouldn't have huge problems keeping up. :smallamused:

I prefer just to play with Diopsids, which don't need extraneous feats to start up an already feat starved concept. Plus, Large weaponry means greatsword-equivalent stats on your two longswords. :smallbiggrin:

[Greenish]

I prefer just to play with Diopsids, which don't need extraneous feats to start up an already feat starved concept. Plus, Large weaponry means greatsword-equivalent stats on your two longswords. :smallbiggrin:Don't diopsids still need OTWF to reduce the penalties?

Anyhow, Valenar elves are my go-to guys for TWF, since no bug is going to be as cool.

[FMArthur]

Don't diopsids still need OTWF to reduce the penalties?

Anyhow, Valenar elves are my go-to guys for TWF, since no bug is going to be as cool.

OTWF is a core part of the "feat-starved concept" of the THF + TWF combination, and not extraneous like Weapon Focus and Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

[Greenish]

OTWF is a core part of the "feat-starved concept" of the THF + TWF combination, and not extraneous like Weapon Focus and Exotic Weapon Proficiency.Well, dwarves don't need EWP, and WF is prerequisite for many things.

Of course, you could pick up EWP and WF as the same feat, if you were so inclined.

[FMArthur]

So what? All I was saying is that Diopsids do the same thing and need a little less investment. Are you contesting that? :smallconfused:

[Luckmann]

[...]

When I ask for a Player background he told me to read 3 books where his character is based upon.

[...]What books? What character?

[kamikasei]

I'm not sure it's a good idea to try to come up with new ways to motivate this guy via RP XP rewards and the like before talking to him and finding out what his motivation is at the moment. Maybe he's perfectly happy playing his way and trying to manipulate him in to playing in a way more to your liking will just annoy him.

[AlexTheGreat]

Just point him towards an cRPG.

[Zeikstraal]

What books? What character?

I mean when I ask for the Characters Background, the Player says that I nead to read 3 books who inspired the dual wielding Dwarf. His character is based upon the Main character of the 3 books.

The book is called "De Dwergen", well thats what he said. The title is Dutch, in English the book is called "the Dwarves".

[Luckmann]

I mean when I ask for the Characters Background, the Player says that I nead to read 3 books who inspired the dual wielding Dwarf. His character is based upon the Main character of the 3 books.

The book is called "De Dwergen", well thats what he said. The title is Dutch, in English the book is called "the Dwarves".

Neat.

moar words

[Boci]

I mean when I ask for the Characters Background, the Player says that I nead to read 3 books who inspired the dual wielding Dwarf. His character is based upon the Main character of the 3 books.

The book is called "De Dwergen", well thats what he said. The title is Dutch, in English the book is called "the Dwarves".

Tell him that unless he gives you an actual background story, you will assume that his character is suffering from amnesia and is delusional and you will instead make up his background stroy.

[NNescio]

I mean when I ask for the Characters Background, the Player says that I nead to read 3 books who inspired the dual wielding Dwarf. His character is based upon the Main character of the 3 books.

The book is called "De Dwergen", well thats what he said. The title is Dutch, in English the book is called "the Dwarves".

Quick summary: Dwarf orphan. Lives in a human magocracy. His adopted father is a human archmage. Works as a blacksmith. Has a very scholarly disposition, due to said father. Doesn't sound like your player's character at all.

He also forged his own epic weapon. Really doesn't sound like your player at all.

[Greenish]

So what? All I was saying is that Diopsids do the same thing and need a little less investment. Are you contesting that? :smallconfused:Nope, I'm just pointing out that the difference in the level of investment isn't necessarily so great.

[Luckmann]

Have him do a Ten-Minute Background (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19713850/The_Ten-Minute_Background--Post_your_characters!).

Shouldn't take him more than 30 minutes. :smallbiggrin:

[Zeikstraal]

Thanks for the summary. That doesnt sound like the player in any way. Shall ask him about it hehe.

I already showed him the 10 minute background. But he couldnt think of an idea for the first question.

As far as I know of his background, he is a son of a general of an army. And he is sent to adventure to gain experience.
He doesnt even have a last name.

[faus7rav3n]

Great set of books... Sounds as if he's trying to channel the Berserker style character Boindal...and not very well at that. Boindal had some issues and was very closed off emotionally, EXCEPT when it came to his brother and dwarven party members. He did however get excited over combat, especially killing Orcs, oh and drinking.

The player could do a better job of channeling it. Maybe the other characters should ask him about his life if they even care, or the GM should sit down and really pry it out of him person to person, possibly doing a game that reveals some of his past to the others.

[Zeikstraal]

The characters name is Biondil. In the previous game his character was called Biondil Dubbelkling.
He is probably trying to be Boindal.

Hmm if it are good books maybe I shall give them a read.

[faus7rav3n]

Maybe, HE needs to reread them again. Character concept is great. Deeply flawed berserker, trying to make up for a mistake he made years ago and seeking to immerse himself in combat to find his penance in the form of death that just refuses to come to him. Good luck! I don't want to ruin too much of the story for ya if you are going to read them.

[Hazzardevil]

Sometimes my character pokes the corpse with a stick, just to say he took part.

Can I sig that?


Quick summary: Dwarf orphan. Lives in a human magocracy. His adopted father is a human archmage. Works as a blacksmith. Has a very scholarly disposition, due to said father. Doesn't sound like your player's character at all.

He also forged his own epic weapon. Really doesn't sound like your player at all.

I swear you stole that from Rune Soldier only changed to fit Dwarves.