"I'll let you in on a little secret: I'm not a Paladin!"

[Randel]

Considering the fun that was had with the thread about a barbarian wizard posted here before (a barbarian who pretends to be a wizard) I'm curious about ideas on how to play someone pretending to be a paladin.

The key points would be:

1). Not having any alignment restrictions or at least very few. This character should ideally look and act like the model paladin of justice until the situation requires him to brutally decapitate anyone he doesn't like or help anybody he likes. At no point should any of his abilitys be subject to debates on D&D morality.

2). To be able to pass himself off as a paladin to most people, knight in shining armor, horse, magical healing and stuff like that. He can totally buy a horse and call it his mount if he wants, though I'm curious about how he can get magical healing without going through some kind of divine class (which would risk him being subject to morality debates).

3). While keeping as much combat ability as possible, have enough ranks in Bluff and Sense Motive to mess with everyone elses heads in a smart way.

4). If he can fool actual paladins then all the better (get some way to fake Detect Evil or Detect Choatic spells). Hopefully do so enough that he can work alongside them and help them deal with problems that they can't handle themselves.

And of course, feel free to list all the different stupid ways a paladin can fall so this character can revel in his immunity to those restrictions! Or how he can genuinly go out of his way to help people in ways that normal paladins either can't or how adventurers rarely seem to do (he can cultivate a reputation for being honest, generous, and lawful so that his various underhanded actions can be better hidden from sight).

My first idea was just having a fighter with some healing belts, a horse (or access to the Mount spell), some shiny armor, and a whole lot of guile... but I'm sure there are plenty of other classes and tricks out there.

[Greenish]

Crusader/Ur-Priest/RKV?

Alternatively, factotum with martial dip, and/or Chameleon.

[Cog]

Binder can get some of the Paladin's tricks, including the mount.

[Diarmuid]

With the surplus of ACF's in the game now, being able to explain away not being able to do something should be pretty easy.

Wear big armor, have a big sword, maybe ride a big horse, act high and mighty.

Sounds like a fighter with some ranks in Bluff.

As you said, if you need to heal, get a belt.

[Taelas]

True Neutral cleric without a deity can pull it off, especially with a Domain giving Bluff as a class skill (I'm sure there is one, though no idea which).

[charcoalninja]

Bard with the still spell feat using perform Oratory and making certain to take celestial as a language. You inspire courage through invoking a holy hym, can cast cure spells, wear some armour, have skill points to spare and are decent in a fight.

You can limit your use of your bardic song, or use bluff to make it seem like your bard song is emulating some divine spell like Bless or somesuch. As a bard you even have the in character motivation of wanting to be the epitome of the gallant hero!

As an added bonus I'm pretty sure there's an alignment hiding spell on the bard list. Misdirection or something? Would allow you to actually Ding as LG to the relevant spells.

Take leadership at 6th and get a "monsterous Cohort" and make that your warhourse/dire lion whathaveyou

[Zale]

YOU'RE NOT A PALADIN!!??! http://superpower-list-forum.2863604.n2.nabble.com/images/smiley/smiley_scared.gif

[Salbazier]

Where's this barbarian wizard thread?

[Keld Denar]

especially with a Domain giving Bluff as a class skill (I'm sure there is one, though no idea which).

Trickery does. Its also one of the best domains in the game for spell access.

[The-Mage-King]

Crusader/Ur-Priest/RKV?

Alternatively, factotum with martial dip, and/or Chameleon.

That seems about right.


Where's this barbarian wizard thread?

Here be it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10771866)

[Amnestic]

Where's this barbarian wizard thread?

I believe this is the one being referred to. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10772085)

Edit: Swordsage'd to the extreme :(

[Zale]

Magic Circle Against Evil: Draws circle in ground, punches everything evil that crosses it.


:annoyed::mad::furious::belkar:

[Fable Wright]

Though kinda weak, Dragon Shaman might be the way to go, if you negotiate with the DM to waive the alignment stuff that should be purely optional. Aura of Awesomeness? Check. You can also trade one of them out for a least DFA invocation, which can lead more paladin-ness. Also handles healing for the most part. Just say that you used Lesser Vigor on everyone with your paladin spells. At fourth level? Paladin-immunities! Nothing can prevent you from doing your vigil! Not sleep, paralysis, and not even an attacking dragon can cause you to feel fear! At 6th level, you gain Lay on Hands-lite that you can use to heal the party with paladin-ness! What do you lose for this? 2 points of BAB from a full BAB class and your reflex save! Make sure to pick a different class up first, though, as you will otherwise suck for the first few levels. But melee+your self buffs (and invocations) can lead to epic.

[Zejety]

Magic Circle Against Evil: Draws circle in ground, punches everything evil that crosses it.


:annoyed::mad::furious::belkar:

You, sir, just made my day.

I'm looking forward to the development of this thread. :smallsmile:

[The Dark Fiddler]

Where's this barbarian wizard thread?

Help Me Be Annoying with a Barbarian Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195049)

Edit: Wow, this is what happens when I try to do my trig homework before posting the link. Mine has the benefit of not leading directly to a specific post, at least.

But yeah, Bard sounds like it'd be spot on, though it doesn't give you the mount by itself. Wild cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) could help with that.

[Darth Stabber]

Bard, factotum, binder, and Rogue/fighter with carefully disguised wand use.

Factotum gets you healing and you can use some of the spells for alignment hiding stuff.
Bard has already been covered, as has binderm

Rogue (with atleast one lvl of fighter or something similar) is also good if you can pull the slight of hand checks to hide the wands you are using, and when you go to "smite" someone, do it from flanking.

[AmberVael]

Psionics would not only be a potent option, but a great deal of a paladin's capabilities could be reproduced by it. Lay on Hands? Touch of Health (from Complete Psionic). Detect Evil? Aura Sight. Fighting ability? Go Psychic Warrior- heck, they're better than your regular Paladin at fighting. Want a smite-like ability? Psionic Weapon.

You could also use a plain psion (which might cut down on your melee ability, but would give you better access to powers and skills you might need). Possibly splash in Incarnum to boost your attack output and for various shiny knight flavor.

[Lapak]

1). Not having any alignment restrictions or at least very few. This character should ideally look and act like the model paladin of justice until the situation requires him to brutally decapitate anyone he doesn't like or help anybody he likes. At no point should any of his abilitys be subject to debates on D&D morality.I don't have any specific mechanical suggestions, but in terms of behavior / play style, I am irresistibly reminded of Sir Bevier at the gates of the Basilica in The Sapphire Rose.

[Tvtyrant]

I suggest a Gnome/Halfling Ranger/Chameleon. Then use your Animal Companion as a mount, the Divine Casting from Chameleon and the Smite option. Now you look like a Paladin, but you don't have any alignment restrictions and are actually stronger.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Magic Circle Against Evil: Draws circle in ground, punches everything evil that crosses it.


:annoyed::mad::furious::belkar:

Detect evil: ask guy if he's evil.
"That guy just killed a child, he's evil!"
"But he didn't show up as evil when I used detect evil."

[Salbazier]

Thanks for the link :smallbiggrin:

[Amphetryon]

A Wilder with the Share Pain combo up and running should be able to pull this off. It's a CHA-driven class that's adequate to good in melee, doesn't suffer spell failure for traipsing around in heavy armor, and just enough Skill points to keep Bluff and Sense Motive high while investing in Ride/Handle Animal and - if desired - the Mounted Combat line. Nab Psionic Fist and yell "I SMITE THEE!" or whatever works at your table when you use it, and you'll appear to a casual observer to Smite Evil.

[The Dark Fiddler]

...and when you go to "smite" someone, do it from flanking.

Or take some levels in invisible blade (Complete Warrior) to feint as a... free action, if I remember correctly, so you can do it on-command. Though you'll have to use a smaller weapon, which doesn't very much fit with the paladin archetype.

[Zale]

I don't have any specific mechanical suggestions, but in terms of behavior / play style, I am irresistibly reminded of Sir Bevier at the gates of the Basilica in The Sapphire Rose.

I seem to recall him removing someone's head, then praying for them. :smallconfused:


Also, Aphrael.. The single most dangerous whimsical little divinity ever.. :smalleek:

[Lapak]

I seem to recall him removing someone's head, then praying for them. :smallconfused:Your recollection is correct. It's the presentation, though, that rings the bell for me; he outright murders someone in his way, but still manages to make everyone around him buy into his own Knightly Virtue (or cows them into pretending they believe it via not-very-veiled threats, anyway.) Scene follows, spoilered mostly for length:

"Though our relations have never been cordial, Captain," he said, "I beseech you not to risk your soul by defying our Holy Mother, the Church. With this in mind, will you not freely stand aside as the Church has commanded you to do?"

"I will not, Sir Knight."

Bevier sighed regretfully. Then, with an almost negligent swing of his dreadful ax, he sent the captain's head flying. Bevier, Sparhawk had noted, did that on occasion. Just as soon as he was certain he was on firm theological ground, the young Arcian habitually took sometimes shockingly direct action. Even now, his face was serene and untroubled as he watched the captain's headless body standing stock still for several seconds, and then he sighed as the body collapsed.

The church soldiers gasped and cried in horror and alarm as they recoiled and reached for their weapons.

"That tears it," Tynian said. "Here we go." He reached for his sword.

"Dear friends," Bevier addressed the soldiers in a gentle but commanding voice, "you have just witnessed a truly regrettable incident. A soldier of the Church has wilfully defied our Mother's lawful command. Let us join together now to offer up a fervent prayer that All-Merciful God shall see fit to forgive his dreadful sin. Kneel, dear friends, and pray." Bevier shook the blood off his ax, spattering a number of soldiers in the process.

First a few, and then more, and finally all of the soldiers sank to their knees.

"Oh, God!" Bevier led them in prayer. "we beseech thee to receive the soul of our dear brother, but recently departed, and grant him absolution for his grevious sin." He looked around. "Continue to pray, dear friends," he instructed the kneeling soldiers. "Pray not only for your former captain, but for yourselves as well, lest sin, ever devious and cunning, creep into your hearts even as it crept into his. Defend your purity and humility with vigor, dear friends, lest you share your captain's fate." Then the Cyrinic Knight, all in burnished steel and pristine white surcoat and cape, moved his horse forward at a walk, threading his way through the ranks of the kneeling soldiers, bestowing blessings with one hand and holding his lochaber ax with the other.

[Pika...]

2). To be able to pass himself off as a paladin to most people, knight in shining armor, horse, magical healing and stuff like that. He can totally buy a horse and call it his mount if he wants, though I'm curious about how he can get magical healing without going through some kind of divine class (which would risk him being subject to morality debates).


Wand chamber in his sword with a cure wand. :smallbiggrin:

[Draz74]

A Wilder with the Share Pain combo up and running should be able to pull this off. It's a CHA-driven class that's adequate to good in melee, doesn't suffer spell failure for traipsing around in heavy armor, and just enough Skill points to keep Bluff and Sense Motive high while investing in Ride/Handle Animal and - if desired - the Mounted Combat line. Nab Psionic Fist and yell "I SMITE THEE!" or whatever works at your table when you use it, and you'll appear to a casual observer to Smite Evil.

I like this idea, but I must point out, it does suffer an Attack Roll penalty for wearing heavy armor nonproficiently.

[Darth Stabber]

I like this idea, but I must point out, it does suffer an Attack Roll penalty for wearing heavy armor nonproficiently.
Solution:

Step 1: Dip Fighter
Step 2: done

[ericgrau]

2) You only need to dip 1 level in a divine class to use cure wands of any spell of any level on that class list. It's a good option even for real paladins. You could even dip ranger for the cures.
3) Again you only need a 1 level dip to max these out, it simply costs more skill points if it's not a class skill for every class in your build.
4) You could ask the DM for a custom item of at-will detect evil for 2,000 gp. If you go cleric you can take a level of hierophant to get it as a spell like ability (which has no visible manifestation just like a supernatural ability). I mean you might only cast it a couple times per day anyway. Or silent still spell to cast it and make it look like a supernatural ability. Regardless of the method leave 1 or 2 uses leftover at all times in case your party asks for one and you're not saying, "Uh.... I ran out."

Ya true there are a million martial ways to do this. I'd almost make your build first and figure out how to tack on paladinness afterwards.

[Draz74]

Solution:

Step 1: Dip Fighter
Step 2: done

Obvious option, yes. However, it does tend to be painful to take a Wilder's already-gimped progression and slow it down any more.

[Darth Stabber]

Obvious option, yes. However, it does tend to be painful to take a Wilder's already-gimped progression and slow it down any more.

Step 1:practiced manifester
Step 2:enjoy a refreshing glass of still 2000% more powerful than a paladin on the same lvl.

I still say rogue, you can umd various wands to cover any magical paladin abilities, you juat need to find a good way to gain immunity to fear. Less powerful certainly, but it is something a rogue would do. Ditto factotum (though less wands are needed). The only thing you need to be sure of is you are not followed shopping, otherwise people will wonder why you need so many wands.

[Darth Stabber]

This reminds me of the time I played a DN. I pretended to be a cleric of weejas for several sessions (only the gm knew), they thought I was a jerk for only healing myself (druid did most of the healing, I had tomb tainted soul). A lucky spellcraft check on a negative energy burst revealed me though.

[Rei_Jin]

Hexblade/Bard/Druid/Monk going into Fochlucan Lyrist

Hexblade gives you charisma to saves Vs spells, druid gives you a mount, and bard gives you healing, spells to hide alignment, etc. Fochlucan Lyrist just makes it all shiny.

[Darth Stabber]

Hexblade/Bard/Druid/Monk going into Fochlucan Lyrist

Hexblade gives you charisma to saves Vs spells, druid gives you a mount, and bard gives you healing, spells to hide alignment, etc. Fochlucan Lyrist just makes it all shiny.

And as soon as the shiny paladin armor is donned, all the druid spells go away, and the casters fight ASF.

[Sinfonian]

And as soon as the shiny paladin armor is donned, all the druid spells go away, and the casters fight ASF.
I think Dragonhide armor is suitably paladiny to not raise questions (say you slayed the foul beast yourself) and not cause trouble with spellcasting.

[holywhippet]

My first idea was just having a fighter with some healing belts, a horse (or access to the Mount spell), some shiny armor, and a whole lot of guile... but I'm sure there are plenty of other classes and tricks out there.

The problem with healing belts is that they do a random amount of healing. A paladin can be very specific with their healing powers - like expending exactly 2 points worth of healing out of their daily total. As soon as you start reaching for your dice to roll the healing value the other players will know something is up.

[Darth Stabber]

The other problem is spellcraft checks. If any one has spellcraft, they will smell something fishy instantly. I don't know if this is a house rule or not, but I have always played under dc10 to determine if arcane or divine (or psionics if using full transparancy), and 15 to identify school (or discipline). Even if not, you would have to be very careful not to give off any telling information (like if you use a cleric made wand of lesser restoration, they might question why it reads as a third level spell and not first)

[Lord.Sorasen]

Cleric should be able to do it ok. There's a variant in the srd that gives smite and an aura of courage, which could also help.

[Rei_Jin]

Ever heard of glamered armor? You can make it look like anything you like, including fullplate

No need to wear fullplate, just look like you are.

[charcoalninja]

The other problem is spellcraft checks. If any one has spellcraft, they will smell something fishy instantly. I don't know if this is a house rule or not, but I have always played under dc10 to determine if arcane or divine (or psionics if using full transparancy), and 15 to identify school (or discipline). Even if not, you would have to be very careful not to give off any telling information (like if you use a cleric made wand of lesser restoration, they might question why it reads as a third level spell and not first)

Well... bards DO have access to Glibness :P

[Fuhrmaaj]

The problem with healing belts is that they do a random amount of healing. A paladin can be very specific with their healing powers - like expending exactly 2 points worth of healing out of their daily total. As soon as you start reaching for your dice to roll the healing value the other players will know something is up.

Got rid of Lay on Hands with an ACF, obviously :P

Also, I second the Glamered comment. I did that when I played a Chameleon and it was awesome.

[Callista]

What would your character's motivation for presenting himself as a paladin be?

'cause that really does make a difference.

Is he really dedicated to a deity, but can't get into the paladin order?
Is he trying to trick people into thinking he's legit?
Does he use it as a cover for less honorable activities?
Does he just really admire paladins, and want to copy their style?
Is he maybe foolish or stupid, and believes he is one when he isn't?
Is he trying to infiltrate a paladin order?

All of that is really going to change things; some classes scream "infiltrator" but would look obviously odd on a paladin fanboy or naive Don Quixote. And vice versa.

Get yourself a backstory before you figure this stuff out. I'm pretty sure it can be done, but how you do it really depends on who your character is going to be, and why he's going to be pretending to be a paladin.

[The-Mage-King]

Also, if your doing this the "Evil infiltrator" route, grab some Planar Motes from Complete Scoundrel. Specifically, from a LG plane.

You detect as LG while they're on your person. Nifty trick.

[deuxhero]

The core Blackguard PRC is an option, but is either the exact opposite of the thematics you wanted, or exactly on it. It gets healing spells and has magic mount (though the demon part may give it away).

[Feytalist]

The other question is of course if you want to be able to fool your own companions or just the random NPC's. The latter is relatively easy with liberal use of Bluff and some magic items via UMD. Bard, rogue or an equivalent class seems good enough, with the added benefit that bard can actually cast some of the necessary spells, as well as undetectable alignment, which might be useful in such a case. A bard can also hide his use of bardic music with bluff and a certain feat, which name has escaped me for the moment. Also, regarding the shining plate, as another poster has stated, the glamour enhancement should do the trick, until it comes to AMF and dispel magic. In which case, you're screwed either way. Also, combine Armoured Caster with mithril full plate (medium armour), and you're set anyway.

As to fooling your companions, that might be a bit more difficult. More rollplaying involved, at any rate. The Chameleon is of course a valid option, just always stay in "paladin" mode. The Dragon Shaman has been mentioned, and has some of the required abilities (touch of vitality, some nice auras) but is of course slightly weaker. Otherwise, again liberal use of bluff and UMD, and some custom magic items (perhaps a figurine of wondrous power for the mount, and some wands with wand holders for the laying on hands/healing/fear removal?), and you should be set. Oh and don't forget the religious battlecries, heh.

[Arbitrarious]

I love the paladin archetype and hate the paladin class. I've found ardent to be a great substitute. Different abilities, but you can flavor them correctly and the feel is there. Mantle picks are easy with some room variation. Guardian, Justice, Good, Physical Power. There is a lot of love to be had. "I serve good and justice, I shall smite you!" then use your dark crystal weapon with the psionic weapon feat to add 6d6 damage to an attack. You can splash a little martial adept in if you like since ardent is pretty forgiving. 10 adept/10 ardent with practiced manifester is just good. It's a little light on PP but infinitely more flexible then an actual pally.

[Psyren]

I like this idea, but I must point out, it does suffer an Attack Roll penalty for wearing heavy armor nonproficiently.

There are plenty of materials out there that mitigate ACP. It's an expensive option, but it's an option.


Step 1:practiced manifester

That won't do a thing for your power progression. You're right about being stronger than a paladin though.

[Vulaas]

I like the idea of a Duskblade masquerading as a paladin. Pretend it's a charging smite one, and use your arcane channeling to do the whole 'call down the wrath of Heironious or your divine being of choice' thing.

[Darth Stabber]

You may want a quickened prestidigitation handy, incase you want to pretend to fall. Wear armor with a color associated with your deity, when you stab a puppy, change the color to just drab plain metal.

[BlackestOfMages]

You may want a quickened prestidigitation handy, incase you want to pretend to fall. Wear armor with a color associated with your deity, when you stab a puppy, change the color to just drab plain metal.

you also need a quickened colour spray, for the pyrotechnics:smallbiggrin:

also:

*'Paladin' comes back into camp, with his colors in tact

Korg - Hello, palladin-man, Korg welcome Palladin-man back to Korg tent. Korg need help with healing Korg's boo-boo. Korg repay Paladin-man with Korg's mighty magic

'Paladin' - is caught of guard, and not wanting to risk Korg's mighty interlect and spell-prowess Sorry, I stepped on your cat a second ago *casts quickened spells* sorry, fallen, can't help.

*Competant partymeber returns - pixie s3 fighter cal fluffles*

Fluffles: Good news, fellow highly-powerful heroes with nothing to hide! I have news for our next quest! we are to raid the lair of the evil dragon, fred the evil! A dragon so evil he eats good aligned heroes as a free action, but gives evil aligned heroes free loot and stuff.

'Palladin' How fortuitous I have fallen

Fluffles: oh indeed, though he'll still eat you for history.

*The next day, the partys supply of boot polish is gone*

Palladin: So, I'm tottaly a blackguard now

[cfalcon]

Detect Evil: Squint at someone. Exclaim, He's Evil!!

Smite Evil: Full attack someone you have declared as evil. Alternatively, yell out I DO SMITE THEE FIEND while full attacking.



This won't get as good as the barbarian wizard thread, which is probably in the top two hundred threads on the internet anywhere. But, we can try.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Detect Evil: Squint at someone. Exclaim, He's Evil!!

Smite Evil: Full attack someone you have declared as evil. Alternatively, yell out I DO SMITE THEE FIEND while full attacking.



This won't get as good as the barbarian wizard thread, which is probably in the top two hundred threads on the internet anywhere. But, we can try.

That's not the detect evil, I already covered that, but I'll repost it here.

Detect evil: ask guy if he's evil.
"That man just killed a child, he's evil!"
"No he's not, he showed up as nonevil when I used detect evil."

[erikun]

Aristocrat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/aristocrat.htm), preferably with one level of Human Paragon to gain Use Magic Device as a class skill. Lay on Hands? His wand of cure light woulds. Paladin mount? Only the finest he can purchase in the land. You might want to try to get Slight of Hand in there as well, unless the character just doesn't care and assumes this is what all paladins do.

[Xanmyral]

Darn, now I want to see this party made. A barbarian that thinks he's a wizard, a [blank] who thinks he's a paladin, and an actually competent party member. If we keep up with the swapping though, maybe someone who wants to be a rogue? Might be too easy for that though...

Korg, the barbarian who thinks he's a wizard! Fear his mighty magics as he shows you the true meaning of arcane prowess with his mighty staff!
"Korg cast spells good, better then other small bearded wizards!"

Max/[Insert Name Here], the sorcerer/[insert class here] who tries to be a paladin. He'll smite you into the next century, with his razor sharp wit and eyes he can scour any evil by inquisitive.
"Don't worry poor damsel, I shall cast lay on hands!"

Navi/[Insert name here], the rogue. Nimble of hand, sharp of blade, she rarely misses her mark. Rather chatty too...
"Hey, listen we can tackle anything with Korg's magic and Max's/[Insert name here]'s piousness!"

Now to actually contribute to the thread. :smalltongue:
Sorcerer with a good few points sunk into use magic device to use wands, true strike plus a damage enhancing spell for smite, and an illusion for armor. Summon a mount, as I'm sure there is a spell in there somewhere for that. I would only suggest staying in this class until you get the spells you need, then move over to a more martial class like Duskblade, Warmage, or maybe a cursader, or fighter.

[kestrel404]

Ardent 3/Warblade 2/Iron Mind 10/Ardent +5

Mantles: Good, Guardian, Creation, Conflict

[TechnOkami]

Amusing fluff idea: I wanted to make a demon paladin who remained CE, with the fluff that he kills his own kind and evil things in general because he's sadistic and gets pleasure from killing evil things. Therefore, he became a paladin because they tend to be most effective against evil things. Most people in his slaying of evil things would regard him highly because he does so, but at the same time he really doesn't care and only wishes to fulfill his twisted desire.

In all honesty, this cannot work according to the rules (except maybe with that weird evil aligned paladin thing, but it doesn't hold the same value to me), so to at least remain in contact with good people without necessarily butchering them to death, he works for this one goddess in Deities and Demigods who can take people of any alignment, and then rolling a Cleric Crusader Ruby Knight Vindicator.

My two cents as thus.

[Randel]

Well, the motive I can think of would be that he wants to be a paladin (or at least a knight in shining armor and champion of justice) but doesn't like the restrictions placed on him to get into the class or to maintain his powers while actually getting stuff done. He's heard all sorts of horror stories about paladins who killed villains or did "the right thing the wrong way" and fell because their deity punished them for one deed that seemed like an honest mistake.

Plus, there are all sorts of bad guys who know the paladin code and try to exploit it (think superheroes and supervillains, and all the arguments about how heroes can't kill and villains keep escaping because of that).

So, he wants to become a paladin to be good and just while still having leeway to do what has to be done. He also wants to have people look up to him as a paragon of goodness one moment while at another moment he can see some bad guy pull of some big scheme in an attempt to get him to fall, only for the non-paladin to get throught the trap, smile, and say "I'll let you in on a little secret: I'm not a paladin!" then Mr. NonPaladin can gut the bad guy like a fish or do whatever he wants and get away without a scratch.


But yeah, the idea of playing on a team full of fakers sounds hilarious. I'm thinking of the Paladin guy being melee centric (could be a rogue or assasin with his sneak attacks being his 'smite evil') but most likely something with a full BAB so he can get up close and personal with the bad guys when needed, though staying back and using ranged attacks could be fun as well.

Heck if I'm going to be using glamoured armor, I could probably buy a Had of Disguise and just make myself look like a paladin.

Or I could play as a wizard or sorcerer who has Craft Construct and greats some kind of giant killer robot and magics the thing into looking like a paladin.

VolderSquire: Hello Kord, I am the lowly squire Voldermort, coming here on behalf of my lord Paladin ShadeSteel. We would like to help you in your quest to fight all the evil wizards running amuk out here.

Paladin ShadeSteel: Lifeform detected, scanning for Evil (eyes light up and scan Kord with bluish light beams) No evil detected. This unit will not smite. Hello, this unit requires your assistance in locating Evil meatbags to smite <recorded message in Voldermorts voice> for the good of the kingdom and all the children and puppies and stuff in it</recorded message>.


Hmm, there's also the alternative necromancer class feature that replaces the familiar with a skeletal minion. Not sure how easy it would be to disguise a skeleton as a paladin, or a wizard to look like a squire.

[...Eh?]

Just have him become a Grey Guard, from Complete Scoundrel. It's a PrC aimed at paladins which essentially removes all of their code of honor. Just make have him not mentioned that he's an exception to the rules until he has to kill someone. The boards raised a big stink over morality when the class first got published, I'm sort of surprised that no one's mentioned it yet.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Just have him become a Grey Guard, from Complete Scoundrel. It's a PrC aimed at paladins which essentially removes all of their code of honor. Just make have him not mentioned that he's an exception to the rules until he has to kill someone. The boards raised a big stink over morality when the class first got published, I'm sort of surprised that no one's mentioned it yet.

I thought Gray Guard was in Complete Adventurer.

[...Eh?]

I thought Gray Guard was in Complete Adventurer.

No, I double checked, it's C.Scoundrel. I remember because it came out around the same time that I joined the forums and the five or so newest threads would be regarding the morality of Gray Guards.

[Grim Reader]

I realize this dips into houserules, but I've long refluffed the Favored Soul to be someone with a drop of the blood of divinities in him, whose power is innate.

And to keep it to official stuff. Both Blackguard and Ur-priest have alignment restrictions. How about the Divine Bard? Or Bard/Sublime Chord/Eldrich Knight to keep it simple?

[Darth Stabber]

Step 1: Tibbit Psion with UMD
Step 2: Find a slightly mentally ill homeless man
Step 3: permanency a telepathic bond with the homeless man.
Step 4: tell the homeless man that you are the voice of heironious or some other deity, and that you have selected him to be a paladin in his name, but to truely prove yourself worthy you must keep this cat with you and safe.
Step 5: use your powers to replicate all of the paladin features, and to keep this hobo alive.
Step 6: profit!!!

[Cog]

I realize this dips into houserules, but I've long refluffed the Favored Soul to be someone with a drop of the blood of divinities in him, whose power is innate.
If you look at the PHB 2, even the writers consider the classes to be metagame constructs, so that's hardly a houserule at all.

[Feytalist]

Well, the motive I can think of would be that he wants to be a paladin (or at least a knight in shining armor and champion of justice) but doesn't like the restrictions placed on him to get into the class or to maintain his powers while actually getting stuff done.

It's a nice idea. After all, it has frequently been said on the forums that not only Paladins have to be "paladins" in the traditional sense. Any moral knight in shining armour could potentially fit.

Another option is of course the Crusader/Bardsader. With Devoted Mind/White Raven, he could emulate many of the required traits, even some basic healing.

[Prime32]

What would your character's motivation for presenting himself as a paladin be?

'cause that really does make a difference.

Is he really dedicated to a deity, but can't get into the paladin order?
Is he trying to trick people into thinking he's legit?
Does he use it as a cover for less honorable activities?
Does he just really admire paladins, and want to copy their style?
Is he maybe foolish or stupid, and believes he is one when he isn't?
Is he trying to infiltrate a paladin order?

All of that is really going to change things; some classes scream "infiltrator" but would look obviously odd on a paladin fanboy or naive Don Quixote. And vice versa.

Get yourself a backstory before you figure this stuff out. I'm pretty sure it can be done, but how you do it really depends on who your character is going to be, and why he's going to be pretending to be a paladin.When he calls himself a paladin, why does it need to be a lie? Can't anyone who fights for good be called a paladin?

[Psyren]

I realize this dips into houserules, but I've long refluffed the Favored Soul to be someone with a drop of the blood of divinities in him, whose power is innate.

IMO this is the most sensible way to fluff them. Like a divine counterpart to the sorcerer. And I was always a big fan of the Greeks and their very... "active" pantheon, if you catch my drift :smallbiggrin:

[Darth Stabber]

I realize this dips into houserules, but I've long refluffed the Favored Soul to be someone with a drop of the blood of divinities in him, whose power is innate.

I do that and drop the wis dependency, still not as good as clerics.

[Feytalist]

When he calls himself a paladin, why does it need to be a lie? Can't anyone who fights for good be called a paladin?

Mostly because all the "real" paladins out there would take some offense to that notion.

And that's okay in a world with no actual paladins, but most built D&D worlds have "Paladin" as an actual job description.

[Heatwizard]

It seems like part of the point of building a fake paladin is that it's not actually divine-powered, like the "wizard" barbarian. I mean, I guess Crusaders and Clerics aren't Paladins, but they're pretty close.

[Feytalist]

Divine-powered should be okay. The main reason is the falling mechanic. You can still be a follower of Lawful Good deity X, just have that extra bit of leeway to do what you think is right without losing all your class levels due to a one-time slip-up.

[Yora]

Just be a Cleric. Everything a paladin can, he can do better. Fear immunity is the only thing that is difficult at low levels.

[Heatwizard]

Divine-powered should be okay. The main reason is the falling mechanic.

Yeah, but where's the challenge in that?

What I've got is Ranger 2/Marshal 1/Ranger 2/X;

Ranger 1: Nemesis(BoED), Favored Enemy: Human

Ranger 2: Combat Style: Strong-Arm(it's in a Dragon Magazine)

Marshal 1: Aura: Force of Will, feat is Avenging Strike(ToB, you can add Cha to attack and damage against evil outsiders, (cha) per day; it'll look pretty funny if you can't smite a demon)

Ranger 3: Paladins get Turn Undead this level; find an item, I guess. You're already going to be leaning on secret wands and discreet magic items a bit.

Ranger 4: Animal Companion: Horse

At which point, with a couple concealed wands, you have the Total Paladin Experience, and you can just go on to take whatever. There's a lack of Use Magic Device here, and you might draw funny looks when you can't smite anything that isn't on your Favored Enemies list or an outsider, though.
Outcast Champion 2(Races of Destiny) gives you a smite-like you can use against anything that's dealt damage to an ally within the last hour, and it comes with an aura that boosts will saves, which a ranger could use. Nasty racial prereqs, though.

Edit: Wait, tell them you're an Avenging Paladin. Trades Lay on Hands, Remove Disease, and Turn Undead for Favored Enemy as a Ranger. Then all you have to do is wand chamber some paladin spells and make sure you don't get sick.

[HalfDragonCube]

Yeah, but where's the challenge in that?

What I've got is Ranger 2/Marshal 1/Ranger 2/X;

Ranger 1: Nemesis(BoED), Favored Enemy: Human

Ranger 2: Combat Style: Strong-Arm(it's in a Dragon Magazine)

Marshal 1: Aura: Force of Will, feat is Avenging Strike(ToB, you can add Cha to attack and damage against evil outsiders, (cha) per day; it'll look pretty funny if you can't smite a demon)

Ranger 3: Paladins get Turn Undead this level; find an item, I guess. You're already going to be leaning on secret wands and discreet magic items a bit.

Ranger 4: Animal Companion: Horse

At which point, with a couple concealed wands, you have the Total Paladin Experience, and you can just go on to take whatever. There's a lack of Use Magic Device here, and you might draw funny looks when you can't smite anything that isn't on your Favored Enemies list or an outsider, though.
Outcast Champion 2(Races of Destiny) gives you a smite-like you can use against anything that's dealt damage to an ally within the last hour, and it comes with an aura that boosts will saves, which a ranger could use. Nasty racial prereqs, though.

Edit: Wait, tell them you're an Avenging Paladin. Trades Lay on Hands, Remove Disease, and Turn Undead for Favored Enemy as a Ranger. Then all you have to do is wand chamber some paladin spells and make sure you don't get sick.

IHS for the last part.

[Heatwizard]

IHS for the last part.

Why, that's even useful all the time. You'd have to wait until sixth and take Martial Study, but until then a wand/scroll would suffice.

[Veyr]

Also, in terms of Favored Enemy versus Smite, some PrCs give Favored Enemy (Evil), which should go a long way towards helping you.

Too bad Favored Enemy itself is so pathetically bad...

[Heatwizard]

Also, in terms of Favored Enemy versus Smite, some PrCs give Favored Enemy (Evil), which should go a long way towards helping you.

Too bad Favored Enemy itself is so pathetically bad...

Well, we're trying to simulate a paladin here. It's hardly tier 1.

[Darth Stabber]

Why, that's even useful all the time. You'd have to wait until sixth and take Martial Study, but until then a wand/scroll would suffice.

Actually you would have to wait until 10th, you need an IL of 5, and non-ToB have IL=1/2 HD. And you would need atleast 1 other IH maneuver. Still really good, and a martial script of it is one of the most undervalued items ever.

[Heatwizard]

Actually you would have to wait until 10th, you need an IL of 5, and non-ToB have IL=1/2 HD. And you would need atleast 1 other IH maneuver. Still really good, and a martial script of it is one of the most undervalued items ever.

Surge is a third level maneuver, though?

[Seerow]

Also, in terms of Favored Enemy versus Smite, some PrCs give Favored Enemy (Evil), which should go a long way towards helping you.

Too bad Favored Enemy itself is so pathetically bad...

Eh a full favored enemy progression with a favored enemy (evil) would actually be close to smite in effectiveness, but always on. I'd call that a decent trade off.

[HalfDragonCube]

Actually you would have to wait until 10th, you need an IL of 5, and non-ToB have IL=1/2 HD. And you would need atleast 1 other IH maneuver. Still really good, and a martial script of it is one of the most undervalued items ever.

Also 'The fact that the creature I want isn't beside me obeying me right now' removes the need for candles of invocation.

[InaVegt]

Surge is a third level maneuver, though?

Hence why you need an initiating level of 5 and a character level of 10 or higher. (unless you take an initiating class.)

[Heatwizard]

Hence why you need an initiating level of 5 and a character level of 10 or higher. (unless you take an initiating class.)

Wha-oh. Right, yeah, caster level nonsense. In my posts, I am the fool. It's me.

[Feytalist]

Hmm, I like the martial dip. As ranger you could always take racial enemy: evil outsiders, and for the rest carry around a holy sword. Heh.

The problem of course comes with the (expected) heavy armour. But then again glamour fixes that.

[Heatwizard]

Hmm, I like the martial dip. As ranger you could always take racial enemy: evil outsiders, and for the rest carry around a holy sword. Heh.

The problem of course comes with the (expected) heavy armour. But then again glamour fixes that.

Avenging Strike lets you 'smite' evil outsiders, so I picked Human at first level because that's probably the bulk of level 1-3 smiteable targets; NPCs who plan to backstab you, or brigands, or something. I don't have much experience with anti-alignment attacks, so I'm not exactly an authority or anything.

I'm also trying to build in such a way that you could play from first level and fool your party, and holy swords don't grow on trees. Glamored armor works once you can afford it; I guess just lie about what you're doing with your money until then. You've got FE Human, you get a bonus to bluff. "I'm, uh, donating my share. To the orphans. So I can't afford big armor. Maybe in a few levels."

[Feytalist]

Avenging Strike lets you 'smite' evil outsiders, so I picked Human at first level because that's probably the bulk of level 1-3 smiteable targets; NPCs who plan to backstab you, or brigands, or something. I don't have much experience with anti-alignment attacks, so I'm not exactly an authority or anything.

I'm also trying to build in such a way that you could play from first level and fool your party, and holy swords don't grow on trees. Glamored armor works once you can afford it; I guess just lie about what you're doing with your money until then. You've got FE Human, you get a bonus to bluff. "I'm, uh, donating my share. To the orphans. So I can't afford big armor. Maybe in a few levels."

Fair enough. Once you can get it though, that holy sword becomes mighty nice to have.

I'm not actually all that well read-up on Avenging Strike. Seems workable.

[Aran Thule]

Mostly because all the "real" paladins out there would take some offense to that notion.

And that's okay in a world with no actual paladins, but most built D&D worlds have "Paladin" as an actual job description.

This was my issue, my character (real Paladin) joined a 'good' party which already had a paladin but he had some very strange habits.
Namely beer and wenches as well as alternating which god he said he followed.
It took a fair bit of observation (about 3 or 4 levels) before we worked out the truth, that he was infact a bard of olidamara.
Even now that we are around 14th level he is still claiming to be a paladin, and tbh he probably does resemble what a paladin of olidamara would be like if they existed.

[Feytalist]

This was my issue, my character (real Paladin) joined a 'good' party which already had a paladin but he had some very strange habits.
Namely beer and wenches as well as alternating which god he said he followed.
It took a fair bit of observation (about 3 or 4 levels) before we worked out the truth, that he was infact a bard of olidamara.
Even now that we are around 14th level he is still claiming to be a paladin, and tbh he probably does resemble what a paladin of olidamara would be like if they existed.

Hah, so it was based on an actual game experience? That is so awesome.

[137beth]

A Ranger with UMD and a wand with healing could do it. Mounted combat feats, and use an animal companion as a mount. Take TWF (yea, it's horrible, but it can pull of the bluff), and you'll resemble a Paladin.

[Tyndmyr]

I played a wizard. I got umd via human paragon and relied on luminous armor, mount. To emulate paladin traits. I took fightery feats and was an aoo monster. Holy symbol was there for fluff. My spell slots were almost entirely used for buffs. Familiar was swapped for another fighter feat(militia), allowing me to carry a wild variety of weapons.

They started getting suspicious because I was a really, really effective paladin, and then they found out I was casting arcane. We later picked up a real paladin I denounced as a powerless fraud. Much fun.

[Albonor]

I skimmed through the thread, and did not see a reference the ONE prestige class that's build around have a fake identity?

Spymaster. Immune to alignment detection. You want to smite? How long before they realise that you only do that went you have a flanker? A one level dip in Fighter gets you the look and weapons and you have plenty of UMD to go around for scrolls and wands. If asked, you say that you feel ashamed of a past action and even if your God(dess) di grant you forgiveness, you didn't and hence refuse to call upon the divine power other than in dire situations (smite).

Rogue1/Fighter1/Rogue3/Spymaster7/Anything8 (barb/fighter, another martial PrC that "looks" noble. Barb helps you get angry at the "infidels" you are "smiting").

[Amphetryon]

I skimmed through the thread, and did not see a reference the ONE prestige class that's build around have a fake identity?

Spymaster. Immune to alignment detection. You want to smite? How long before they realise that you only do that went you have a flanker? A one level dip in Fighter gets you the look and weapons and you have plenty of UMD to go around for scrolls and wands. If asked, you say that you feel ashamed of a past action and even if your God(dess) di grant you forgiveness, you didn't and hence refuse to call upon the divine power other than in dire situations (smite).

Rogue1/Fighter1/Rogue3/Spymaster7/Anything8 (barb/fighter, another martial PrC that "looks" noble. Barb helps you get angry at the "infidels" you are "smiting").
Duskblade 8 might fit this reasonably. Arcane Strike can be a faux smite.

[Yorae]

I seem to recall someone playing a warlock impersonating a paladin once... they would "smite evil" with Hideous Blow.