advancement for minions (namely controlled undead)

[Darth Stabber]

So intelligent controlled undead, we'll use a wight for this example, are capable of advancement, sometimes even through class levels. Does that mean they should gain some portion of xp gains? Just because they are compelled into service doesn't mean they aren't capable of learning and advancement. Even though they are part of the necromancer's class features, should they be counted for encounter xp?

This engenders 2 problems
1)increases a single minion's control pool consumption (ie the wight rogue 1 eats up 4 dice instead of 3)
2)more seriously, the necromancer is reducing everyone's xp, all to power her class features.

I ask this because the party I am currently gming for has a pair of wights that have been traveling with them for the past three levels, and despite the massive increase in party power, they are still dinky little wights, despite being very well performing monsters, almost nothing dies without a negative level on it. They are starting be highly out classed, and the PC necromancer is really attached to them. I am considering giving the party a vote about whether or not controlled intelligent undead should get xp (her owlbear skeleton and white dragon zombie are out, barring an awaken undead spell). Should I do that or just talk to necromancer and level her wights under the table, or should I just leave well enough alone, and make the necromancer find some tougher minions?

[Diarmuid]

You wouldnt penalize a druid's party's XP because of the AC would you?

Similarly, you shouldnt reduce the XP for the necro's party. You also shouldnt arbitrarily increase the minion's power. Finding tougher minions is part of the necessities of playing the class.

[Darth Stabber]

You wouldnt penalize a druid's party's XP because of the AC would you?.
Animal Companions advance as the druid levels and are not particularly intelligent.


Similarly, you shouldnt reduce the XP for the necro's party. You also shouldnt arbitrarily increase the minion's power. Finding tougher minions is part of the necessities of playing the class.
Is there a way for her to train up her undead, because this player will do it, and I would rather she do that, than me have to cycle through 1,000 voices and personallities for a revolving door of walking dead. (I tend to RP intelligent minions pretty hard, with the player getting the control during combat). Plus I am 99% certain the player has become somewhat attached to the comedically psychopathic wights.

[Diarmuid]

Game mechanically, no there is no way for her to advance her minions beyond some way to pull the soul/personality/etc out of the wight and put it into some cooler undead.

[Darth Stabber]

So I need to homebrew some sort of spell or ritual to turn some xp and onyx into hit-dice or class levels.

So how about (current hit-dice^2)*100gp worth of onyx plus half that in xp, and can't raise it above your caster level-3? With a 8hour ritual time, and maybe spend some rebuke attempts and spell slots? Should I give hit-dice or class levels?

[Benly]

One idea that amuses me would be to let her recycle that same intelligent being's soul into whatever kind of undead creature she puts together - she casts Create Undead over the appropriate corpse with the wight standing by, the wight gets sucked in and the corpse wakes up as a mummy with the former wight's blackened soul inside. Or zombie hydra with her wight's soul and voice, or whatever she happens to make.

[Set]

If they're intelligent, have them gain some class levels. Fighter, Monk, possibly Barbarian (if they can use Cha in place of Con, as suggested in some places), are all decent choices to beef them up a tad. Since they are under control, it's not a stretch to order them to train, and various undead with class levels populate all sorts of adventures, so it's not anything that the rules strictly forbid.

In lieu of just having them learn these class levels the old-fashioned way, it's conceivable that they were fighters, etc. in life, and that a custom use of create undead could allow them to 'remember' some of their abilities from the former inhabitants of their skanky undead bodies. The GM could assign a cost to this option, or a special ritual, or an Incantation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm), so that it's not a freebie, but ends up having some sort of cost, or special materials / circumstances assigned to it, to keep it under his control (and to limit the class options available to those he's comfortable with).

[ubergeek63]

If they're intelligent, have them gain some class levels. Fighter, Monk, possibly Barbarian (if they can use Cha in place of Con, as suggested in some places), are all decent choices to beef them up a tad. Since they are under control, it's not a stretch to order them to train, and various undead with class levels populate all sorts of adventures, so it's not anything that the rules strictly forbid.

In lieu of just having them learn these class levels the old-fashioned way, it's conceivable that they were fighters, etc. in life, and that a custom use of create undead could allow them to 'remember' some of their abilities from the former inhabitants of their skanky undead bodies. The GM could assign a cost to this option, or a special ritual, or an Incantation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm), so that it's not a freebie, but ends up having some sort of cost, or special materials / circumstances assigned to it, to keep it under his control (and to limit the class options available to those he's comfortable with).

along those lines two words come to mind: Libris Mortis

[Rei_Jin]

Seeing that the creation of undead normally requires components, just have your necromancer spend the difference in components to make them more powerful.

From memory, it's 50gp per hit die (for create undead) so if you wanted to have her power them up with class levels, maybe pay someone to train them in the relevant class (unless the party already has that class amongst their members) and get the wights to drink powdered onyx of the correct value.

[Feytalist]

You could always let the wights follow the cohort rules for Leadership, without the Necro needing to have the actual feat.

Although, perhaps some effort and/or expense to the Necro is warrented, after all he is getting something for nothing. The ritual, with a bit of XP burn, sounds good.