What would it take to boost Warlock/warmage to tier 3?

[Kylarra]

So I had the fun idea after seeing someone suggest gestalting Dragon Shaman//DFA in order to make as stronger T3 DFA of trying to gestalt something with either of these two in order to push them over the hoop to T3.

If not gestalt, what other things would people suggest giving to push them up?

[Eldariel]

So I had the fun idea after seeing someone suggest gestalting Dragon Shaman//DFA in order to make as stronger T3 DFA of trying to gestalt something with either of these two in order to push them over the hoop to T3.

If not gestalt, what other things would people suggest giving to push them up?

Gestalting them does precious little since they do practically the same thing. Warlock just needs more Invocations known, perhaps in a bit faster schedule. More Imbue Item-type abilities and/or earlier could also help (perhaps built-in Metamagic Spell Trigger with a clause to allow them to use their Metamagic Spell-Likes with the Spell Trigger item like you normally use the standard Metamagic feats with the Spell Trigger). Double the number of Invocations though, and it's probably already tier 3. Warmage just needs a wider spell list with things that are actually useful in war, not just booms (seriously, whoever wrote the Warmage probably missed the fact that more important than the fight in the frontier are the supply lines, the intelligence, the grand scale strategic maneuvers and the long range weapons available at each side). Right now, Warmage's spell list amounts to "do Leveld6 to one or more targets with various elements". Give it some useful spells like Teleports and Walls/Barriers and boom, instant Tier 3.

[charcoalninja]

being good aligned and taking Rainbow Servant instantly tier 1s warmage nicely as they have access to everything on the clerics list spontaneously.

[Kylarra]

Gestalting them does precious little since they do practically the same thing. You misunderstand me. I'm not suggesting Warlock//Warmage. I'm asking what to gestalt with Warlock, as well as what to gestalt with warmage separately.

Warlock//Something && Warmage//Something [else?].

[Tvtyrant]

Warlock//Shadowcaster gets you the ability to nova and the ability to cast rays all day long.

Warmage//Duskblade makes you a Gish+Blaster that can wear armor for both.

[charcoalninja]

I would gestalt warlock / hexblade + blackguard myself and have a warlock 95% immune to anything requiring a save which IMO boosts them up a tier. Any other shortfalls can be made up for by taking the scribe scroll feat and just crafting any spell you want to w/ imbue + decieve items from warlock.

(especially potent if you're evil and using the sacrifice rules from BoVD)

[Cog]

being good aligned and taking Rainbow Servant instantly tier 1s warmage nicely as they have access to everything on the clerics list spontaneously.
Being awesome in the higher levels only doesn't qualify for Tier 1 status. See: Healer.

I think an interesting patch for Warlocks would be to keep their knowns but let them "prepare"/reselect them each day. You'd then want to keep track of how many they got at each invocation level... or not, if you want even more of a boost.

[Halae]

The big thing with Gestalt is that you want to choose one side that isn't overlapping with the other side. for example - I once played an Azurin Incarnate//Warblade. Because most of the incarnate abilities were chosen at the beginning of the day and continued to buff me throughout the day, I could focus on the Warblade stuff, which made it an effective combo.

What you need here is a class that works well in synergy with Warlock. Depending on the build, a full BAB class on the other side could be absolutely devastating when using a Glaivelock, but the issue is that the Warlock on its own is completely, befuddlingly lacking in versatility, just because they don't gain as many options as other classes.

Admittedly, A warlock can be versatile and contribute quite well to a party, but it'll never be on the level of even a sorcerer. I honestly think that warlock should be tier 3, but honestly speaking it just can't do as much as it should

[JaronK]

Warlock//Binder would do the trick, and it really works thematically quite well too. That would obviously be T3 (since Binder already is). Note that there's one possible break point... a Binder binding that one vestige that grants item creation feats combined with the Warlock ability to provide spells for item creation would let you make almost any magic item. So when you hit that level, if you have time to craft you could really start to turn into an Artificer. Be aware of that.

As for Warmage, I'd gestalt it with Warblade, and possibly make it entirely Int based casting while I was at it. That would make a fun concept. Without fixing the casting you'd have harsh MAD to deal with though.

JaronK

[charcoalninja]

Being awesome in the higher levels only doesn't qualify for Tier 1 status. See: Healer.

I think an interesting patch for Warlocks would be to keep their knowns but let them "prepare"/reselect them each day. You'd then want to keep track of how many they got at each invocation level... or not, if you want even more of a boost.

You can qualify for Rainbow servant w/ warmage by like lvl 3 with some good feat selections so you're casting spontaneously as a cleric by lvl 13, which isn't that late in the game IMO.

Anyway, if what you say is true, it certainly gives it the bump to tier 3 that the thread initially requested.

[gbprime]

Bumping them to T3 would require giving them more options.

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Warmage to Rainbow Servant as suggested turns the Warmage into a T1 caster at level 15 or so.

Warmage to Dracolexi or Wild Soul adds spells and abilities and would qualify for T3 in my opinion.

Warmage to War Mage (DL:AoM) turns Warmage into a vastly more powerful cannon... T3 be damned. :smallamused:

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Warlock combined with an early entry divine or arcane class and then moving into Eldritch Theurge or Eldritch Disciple does the trick. But then they're only T3 by virtue of the fact that they're doubling as another class altogether.

I've also seen Warlock with a homebrewed power to activate charged devices without actually using a charge. This, however, turned out to be badly broken after the PC in question got Imbue Item and Craft Staff...

[FMArthur]

Give Warmage access to all Sorc/Wiz Evocation.
Give Warlock swappable daily invocations and add all Ranger spells to the list of invocations, barring healing and SNA.

Now both are far, far more versatile and are capable of adding a wide variety of utility to the party. They are easy to optimize for blastiness already.

[Deathslayer7]

Give Warmage access to all Sorc/Wiz Evocation.
Give Warlock swappable daily invocations and add all Ranger spells to the list of invocations, barring healing and SNA.

Now both are far, far more versatile and are capable of adding a wide variety of utility to the party. They are easy to optimize for blastiness already.

That actually sounds like a good idea.

[charcoalninja]

Give Warmage access to all Sorc/Wiz Evocation.
Give Warlock swappable daily invocations and add all Ranger spells to the list of invocations, barring healing and SNA.

Now both are far, far more versatile and are capable of adding a wide variety of utility to the party. They are easy to optimize for blastiness already.

Out of curiousity why Ranger spells?

[Aricandor]

For the fey warlock flavour, I imagine.

[FMArthur]

That, and because just giving them more damage is demonstrably not part of the gap between T4 and T3. They need versatility, and the Ranger list is basically all utility - as well as just not strong enough to be unbalanced with infinite use.

[Cespenar]

Out of curiosity, what Tier would a Warlock be, if she had access to ALL the invocations on the list?

[Greenish]

Out of curiosity, what Tier would a Warlock be, if she had access to ALL the invocations on the list?3. There's nothing on the list to leap the gap between tier 3 and tier 2 (at least, that I can think of).

[Eldariel]

3. There's nothing on the list to leap the gap between tier 3 and tier 2 (at least, that I can think of).

I concur. I mentally went through all the Invocations and came to the conclusion that none really give the class truly omnipotent campaign-wrecking ability to do anything. This kind of makes sense too, since the class would most likely be ranked Tier 2, not Tier 4 if such Invocations did exist (on levels where it matters; Darks hardly do) since it would be assumed you simply pick them if you wish to be efficient.

[Darth Stabber]

Out of curiosity, what Tier would a Warlock be, if she had access to ALL the invocations on the list?
Probably 3, they pick up more utility, but the list has very little.

[Fuhrmaaj]

Being awesome in the higher levels only doesn't qualify for Tier 1 status. See: Healer.

I think an interesting patch for Warlocks would be to keep their knowns but let them "prepare"/reselect them each day. You'd then want to keep track of how many they got at each invocation level... or not, if you want even more of a boost.

I would like to counter that the a Warmage/Rainbow Servant is potentially awesome at all levels. Let's not forget GenCon Delve where a low level party of Warmages cleaned up in about 13 minutes. My understanding is that Warmages became very popular for this exercise after that.

Warmages are pretty decent at low levels because they do damage just like everyone else, but they make ranged touch attacks and typically do higher amounts of damage. You can qualify for Rainbow Servant after 6th level (which I would say is perhaps a little late), but you don't get Cleric spell access until 16th level. So the key is using careful optimization to pick up more useful spells otherwise you're Tier 4 most of your career.

Smart optimization would raise the Tier of the Warmage, but only because it's not being played like the Warmage that Complete Arcane expects you to. I would suggest that in order to become Tier 3, the Warmage need only pick up a small selection of spells to increase his versatility. I don't know if I will believe the argument that the Warmage is Tier 1 because the Cleric spell access comes too late to matter to most players.

[charcoalninja]

most people never reach lvl 16?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Warlock//Binder would do the trick, and it really works thematically quite well too. That would obviously be T3 (since Binder already is). Note that there's one possible break point... a Binder binding that one vestige that grants item creation feats combined with the Warlock ability to provide spells for item creation would let you make almost any magic item. So when you hit that level, if you have time to craft you could really start to turn into an Artificer. Be aware of that.

As for Warmage, I'd gestalt it with Warblade, and possibly make it entirely Int based casting while I was at it. That would make a fun concept. Without fixing the casting you'd have harsh MAD to deal with though.

JaronK
Warlock with a two-level dip in Chameleon can already craft nearly any item in the game.

Honestly, Warlocks come fairly close to T3 anyways, so it wouldn't take much.

I like the idea of pairing it with Shadowcaster, and the flavor even sort of fits. Plus, something with nova ability paired with something that has staying power seems like a good idea to me.

The other thing I would do for Warlocks would be to give them better means of augmenting their Invocations, and giving them a broader selection for their invocations.

The other option would be to give them some party synergy options. Right now, pretty much all they do is blast, with a bit of battlefield control, although most of their battlefield control doesn't come online until Greater invocations at level 11. I'd give them some options for party support and utility. Maybe combo it with Inspire Courage, or give them some party buffing invocations. Give them a reason for a party to want to include them, other than raw damage output.

[MeeposFire]

A warlock/dragon fire adept gestalt would be tier 3.

[Hida Reju]

For Warmage it all comes down to spells known. The other class abilities are ok (Except that Warmage edge needs to be CHA) but could use a few more uses per day on the sudden metamagics or replace them with uses of normal metamagics known without increasing casting time. IE every time they get a new tier then they can use a new lvl of metamagic without increasing casting time.

Warlock could get by with D8 Hit die and the ability to use Eldritch blast in a full attack like normal. A faster progression on the number of invocations could help too.

[IthroZada]

Speaking along the same line as all this, what would a healer have synergy with?

I've seen paladin//knight and paladin//Marshall suggested as good fixes for themselves, but seeing Marshall made me think of Healer, which I never see anyone talk about playing.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Speaking along the same line as all this, what would a healer have synergy with?

I've seen paladin//knight and paladin//Marshall suggested as good fixes for themselves, but seeing Marshall made me think of Healer, which I never see anyone talk about playing.

Healer is kind of like the misfit kid with an uncanny resemblance to the mailman. People mostly don't want to talk about his origins, and would just as soon pretend he doesn't exist.

[Tvtyrant]

Healer//Dragon Shaman. Its the ultimate passive class!

[Geigan]

Give Warmage access to all Sorc/Wiz Evocation.
Give Warlock swappable daily invocations and add all Ranger spells to the list of invocations, barring healing and SNA.

Now both are far, far more versatile and are capable of adding a wide variety of utility to the party. They are easy to optimize for blastiness already.

+1 especially the warmage list expansion. Evocation actually has plenty to work with, the warmage just gets to see so little of that list.