[Pathfinder] Dex-based melee tweaks

[acid_ninja]

For those not familiar with the pathfinder SRD, Dervish Dance requires Weapon Finesse, proficiency with a scimitar and two ranks in perform (dance) - which means that fighters could pick it up at level 2 (with a bonus feat) and everyone else has to wait for level 3. It allows you to use your Dex bonus for attack and damage rolls with a scimitar as long as you have nothing in the off-hand.

I don’t really think its too OP since you can’t use it with TWF – the usual fighting style of high dex fighters and rangers - and rogues and bards (the other usual high dex melee guys) will need to somehow get MWP: Scimitar (not too hard to do – heirloom weapon trait, being a half-elf with the ancestral arms racial trait, or spending a feat for a total outlay of three feats).

What I don’t like about it is the flavour reqs. With the release of the magus, I think that every single one of them will now have some sort of Qadiri background so they have a good reason to take this feat, and what about Aldori Duelist fighters? How come they don’t get a way to add dex to damage? The difference between a d6 and a d8 is not that much and the scimitar’s high threat means that it’s actually a much better weapon at high levels. It’s also mechanically identical to a rapier in every meaningful way (okay, it’s a different damage type but that’s a case of different, not better since Dervish Dance allows you to treat a scimitar as a piercing weapon for class features and feats).

I guess my real question is do you think it would be unbalanced to homebrew a feat that allows you to add your Dex to damage with a single finesse weapon? What would be the pre-reqs? Dex 13 and weapon finesse for certain and not being able to take it until level 3 (2 for fighters) so maybe a simple BAB of +2 req?

[Eldariel]

I guess my real question is do you think it would be unbalanced to homebrew a feat that allows you to add your Dex to damage with a single finesse weapon? What would be the pre-reqs? Dex 13 and weapon finesse for certain and not being able to take it until level 3 (2 for fighters) so maybe a simple BAB of +2 req?

I've done it for years. I give everyone Weapon Finesse for free ('cause duh) and Weapon Finesse grants you Dex to damage. It doesn't need prerequisites; the feat tax is a price enough, especially since you pretty much give up offensive combat maneuvers going off Dex (without additional feat anyways).

[acid_ninja]

I've done it for years. I give everyone Weapon Finesse for free ('cause duh) and Weapon Finesse grants you Dex to damage. It doesn't need prerequisites; the feat tax is a price enough, especially since you pretty much give up offensive combat maneuvers going off Dex (without additional feat anyways).


I don't know if I want to houserule it that far. I see the reasons, both balance and flavor, for making STR be the default stat for attack and damage with melee weapons. I guess the feat tax is a pretty good balancing mechanic. Even with uber-high dex, adding it to damage is not too much.

[Curious]

I don't know if I want to houserule it that far. I see the reasons, both balance and flavor, for making STR be the default stat for attack and damage with melee weapons. I guess the feat tax is a pretty good balancing mechanic. Even with uber-high dex, adding it to damage is not too much.

Ban it? Heck, in my games, I get rid of the 'Weapon Finesse' prerequisite to make it a more attractive option. Dex fighter types get little enough love as it is, this is a step in the right direction.

[CTrees]

Dervish Dance+Freehand Fighter+Duelist is kinda neat, with all the synergy. Ban Dervish Dance? Why? Couple pre-reqs for not *that* powerful an effect, but one that helps you make an actual, agile fighter, not really worried about strength.

[acid_ninja]

Ban it? Heck, in my games, I get rid of the 'Weapon Finesse' prerequisite to make it a more attractive option. Dex fighter types get little enough love as it is, this is a step in the right direction.

I'm just trying to avoid the cookie-cutter syndrome of every single bloody dex-based melee character using a scimitar (and thus having to have a Qadiri/Sarenrae element to their backstory). I realize that this is only a concern if you're playing the PF Chronicles setting, but I am.

I'm cool with the feat tax since Dex has so many other uses (reflex saves, intiative, CMD, loads of great skills) compared to Str (carrying capacity, a couple of skills and that's about it other than pre-reqs for feats that suit Str based builds anyway).

[Set]

Open it up and remove the flavor bit, allowing it to function with rapiers (for Taldans) or Aldori swords (for Aldori Swordlords), etc.

You could even make a list of weapons suitable for the feat, based off of race and / or type (Varisians can use it with starknives or bladed scarves, pick one when you take the feat, Taldans with rapiers or falcata, Vudrans with urumi, etc.).

[acid_ninja]

I think I'll just go with a feat like this:

Deft Strike
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Proficiency with Weapon, Dex 13, BAB +2
Choose a weapon with which you are proficient and with which you can use the weapon finesse feat. You may add your Dex bonus instead of your Str bonus to damage rolls with this weapon, provided yo do not have another weapon or a shield in your off-hand.

That way you can still use it with the Elven Curveblade to get the 1:3 power attack bonus and yes, [sigh] the chain of cheese

[Greenish]

I think I'll just go with a feat like this:

Deft Strike
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Proficiency with Weapon, Dex 13, BAB +2
Choose a weapon with which you are proficient and with which you can use the weapon finesse feat. You may add your Dex bonus instead of your Str bonus to damage rolls with this weapon, provided yo do not have another weapon or a shield in your off-hand.

That way you can still use it with the Elven Curveblade to get the 1:3 power attack bonus and yes, [sigh] the chain of cheeseDidn't PF make Spiked Chain pretty much useless?

Anyhow, I don't see any reason to stop TWF from using this.

[acid_ninja]

Didn't PF make Spiked Chain pretty much useless?

TBH, I don't know. I tend to try to pretend it doesn't exist :smallamused:


Anyhow, I don't see any reason to stop TWF from using this.

I tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to houserules but now that I think of it, without oversized TWF and dual-wielding rapier shenannigans, I don't see why not, other than rendering double slice (even more) useless.

[Greenish]

TBH, I don't know. I tend to try to pretend it doesn't exist :smallamused:Checked it, and yeah, they removed the reach. Now it's flat out worse than heavy flail, and only marginally better than flail (average damage 5 instead of 4.5).



I tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to houserules but now that I think of it, without oversized TWF and dual-wielding rapier shenannigans, I don't see why not, other than rendering double slice (even more) useless.What are dual rapier shenanigans?

[acid_ninja]

With oversized two-weapon fighting you can dual wield rapiers. I guess its not much worse than two kukris but two high crit weapons is devastating enough without doubling a gigantic dex bonus to damage all the time as well.

[Greenish]

I guess its not much worse than two kukris but two high crit weapons is devastating enoughOh noes, 2d6 damage! How will anything survive that?! :smalltongue:

Really, I'm not seeing shenanigans, I'm seeing someone burning a large bunch of feats for a style that's average at best. :smallconfused:

[Safety Sword]

Are you guys trying to give melee nice things again? :smalltongue:

TWF Dervish dance sounds like a melee character I might want to actually try one day!

We need top pump melee up, not restrict their fighting style choices.

[Mr. Zolrane]

Dervish Dance+Freehand Fighter+Duelist is kinda neat, with all the synergy. Ban Dervish Dance? Why? Couple pre-reqs for not *that* powerful an effect, but one that helps you make an actual, agile fighter, not really worried about strength.

Love that build. Free-Hand Fighter is neat to begin with, but it's pretty much the ideal thing to prestige into Duelist with.


Are you guys trying to give melee nice things again? :smalltongue:

TWF Dervish dance sounds like a melee character I might want to actually try one day!

We need top pump melee up, not restrict their fighting style choices.

Hear, hear!

[acid_ninja]

I really need to change the title of this thread, but don't know how. As I said in the OP, its not really about banning it but avoiding cookie cutter syndrome.

While we're on the subject, what do you think of the dirty trick manuever. When I first saw it, I loved it. Debuffs for melee characters!

Do you think that tweaking it so it could be used in place of a melee attack like trip or disarm would be a problem?

Also, allowing vital strike to be used with spring attack?

[Mr. Zolrane]

I really need to change the title of this thread, but don't know how. As I said in the OP, its not really about banning it but avoiding cookie cutter syndrome.

Edit the title of the original post.

EDIT: Also, it seems a lot of your problem is setting specific. This is just me talking out of my rear-end here, but I'm a big fan of Pathfinder but I rather dislike Golarion for a number of different reasons (Ogres are inbred hillbilly rapists, DERP), so when I DM I plan on banning any setting-specific stuff that can't be reasonably refluffed to fit my inhouse setting.

[Greenish]

I really need to change the title of this thread, but don't know how. As I said in the OP, its not really about banning it but avoiding cookie cutter syndrome.Then the better solution is likely to be giving more good solutions instead of banning the only good one.


While we're on the subject, what do you think of the dirty trick manuever. When I first saw it, I loved it. Debuffs for melee characters!

Do you think that tweaking it so it could be used in place of a melee attack like trip or disarm would be a problem?Hmm, you could stack debuffs pretty fast, but it has a short duration, requires opposed check, and provokes unless you burn a feat. You could try it out.


Also, allowing vital strike to be used with spring attack?Doesn't seem too bad, you're burning a whole bunch of feats for less damage than a full attack, and any opponent with vital strike (or other standard action nasties, or pounce, or the like) can still reach you unless your speed is much higher.

[Mr. Zolrane]

Then the better solution is likely to be giving more good solutions instead of banning the only good one.

That could be applied to so many, many, things. Greeny, you are a never-ending fountain of wisdom and cream soda. But mostly wisdom.

[acid_ninja]

Hmm, you could stack debuffs pretty fast, but it has a short duration, requires opposed check, and provokes unless you burn a feat. You could try it out.

It can also be removed with a move action (standard with one of the upgrade feats)

I would agree about dervish dance. I think deft strike as a feat is a good solution, removing the TWF exception.

When I first saw vital strike as a feat, my first thought was that it allows you make your attacks as a standard action rather than a full attack (requires a BAB of +6) but balances that by only allowing your str and other bonuses to work once (which at higher levels are most of your damage). I could see it being pretty effective with a scout rogue, but not op since they would only be able to get one sneak attack off. Seems like a good trade-off between offense and defense.

[ffone]

With oversized two-weapon fighting you can dual wield rapiers. I guess its not much worse than two kukris but two high crit weapons is devastating enough without doubling a gigantic dex bonus to damage all the time as well.

Dual rapiers is silly anyway, you're spending a feat (Oversized TWF) for an average of +1 damage over two kukris (1d6 vs 1d4). I don't see a reason to gimp it.

[Greenish]

Dual rapiers is silly anyway, you're spending a feat (Oversized TWF) for an average of +1 damage over two kukris (1d6 vs 1d4). I don't see a reason to gimp it.Well, with PF PA, you'd get better returns with one-handed than light weapons, I seem to recall.

[jmelesky]

Well, with PF PA, you'd get better returns with one-handed than light weapons, I seem to recall.

Not that i'm aware of. The only modifiers are for "a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon", and then "an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon". So primary light weapons should be perfectly PAable, and your off-hand gets half bonus regardless of weapon size.

[Greenish]

Not that i'm aware of. The only modifiers are for "a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon", and then "an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon". So primary light weapons should be perfectly PAable, and your off-hand gets half bonus regardless of weapon size.Ah, right. So yeah, OTWF a pair of rapiers is pretty weak (though cool).

[Mr. Zolrane]

Ah, right. So yeah, OTWF a pair of rapiers is pretty weak (though cool).

This. I honestly might do that for the sake of sheer style. The character concept I'm thinking of is a TWF rogue anyway, so he's not terribly optimized. I acknowledge that, but I don't really care 'cause he's just that darned cool.

[Retech]

What is this chain of cheese with elven curved blade?

[Greenish]

What is this chain of cheese with elven curved blade?He was referring to Spiked Chain as "chain of cheese", since it was one of the few exotic weapons in 3.5 worth spending a feat for. Not so in Pathfinder, where it's pretty much worse than equivalent martial weapons.

He meant that since both the chain and elven curved blade are finessable two-handers, you could use the homebrew feat of the same post with them, in addition to getting 1:3 PA returns as two-handers get in PF.