How would you escape this?

[Talakeal]

The other day I was discussing balancing magic versus melee and was presented with a challenge.

A martial character is attacking a mage in an enclosed room, likely within a stone castle or dungeon. The mage casts the following spells:

1: Wall of stone to seal of the exist to the room
2: Mage creates wall of fire in said room.
3: Mage exits room with dimension door or other teleport effect.

Then the mage waits for the wall of fire to consume all the oxygen in the room or simply burn the martial character alive.

What can the martial character do to escape this trap?

By Martial character I mean one who doesn't have supernatural abilities or spellcastings.

Obviously if he has magic items which teleport, grant etherealness, or can disintegrate large amounts of rock he is fine, but those aren't common place. For the purposes of this discussion magic items are limited to those that most such characters always have on them.

[Katana_Geldar]

I'd kill the DM, unless he wants me to pass out.

[Seerow]

Define martial character? A large number of them will simply teleport out by virtue of partial casting or class features.

Assuming you mean like a fighter or barbarian.... he should still be able to chip his way through the wall pretty easily. 15hp per inch of thickness (so 75 at CL20) and 8 hardness isn't that hard to overcome. Especially with a adamantine weapon. Just cleave your way through it and open the door.

[Talakeal]

Wow, I never noticed how easy it is to destroy a D&D wall of stone before... that kind of renders this question moot, I always assumed they were a full 5' square thick.

[Urpriest]

Point out that Wall of Fire doesn't consume oxygen and stone isn't airtight?

[druid91]

Stabinate your way through the wall in a flurry of awesomeness.

[Volos]

Well since I was attacking the mage when he went to cast three (maybe two) turns worth of spells, I would have the proper feats to keep mages from casting while I threatened them and just kill the mage before any of this happened. No need to escape when he's dead and I'm not sealed in a room that is supposely running out of oxygen. I'd probably have a reach weapon and back the mage into a corner as part of my combat strategy, so there wouldn't be anywhere for him to go. So... why was this a challenge? :smallconfused:

[Morghen]

For the purposes of this discussion magic items are limited to those that most such characters always have on them.For me, this is the critical thing. If I'm looking for loots for my character, I'm taking things that are utilitarian, not a +40 Axe of Rote or Armor of Samol'-Samol'.

I was in a tournament with some people I'd just met and we were getting our heads kicked in. TWO people in this group had a Rod of Lordly Might. When I grabbed one and used the telescoping function to wedge a door shut they all looked at me like I'd grown a 2nd head.

[Nachtritter]

Stab The Fire.

Stab It Until It Dies.

[arguskos]

Pulverize the wall of stone with my sheer manliness, then use the stone dust to smother the fire. Alternately, employ my abilities as a famous fire-eater to eat the fire and call it a day.:smallcool:

But seriously, just hack the wall down.

[Vknight]

Stab the wall down with a dagger.
Why?
Because you can:smallcool:

[jseah]

While I understand that this is obviously 3E, I'm about to present a similar problem for systems in general.

A mage locks a fighter into a room and presents a slow but sure deathtrap then egresses via supernatural means.
The fighter cannot exit the room without supernatural means and using force against the known exits is either futile (run out of air first) or deadly (you don't know which door leads to certain doom)

Of course, as presented, the situation is mostly going to result in the non-magic using character dying.
This is implied to be unacceptable, but simply preventing the mage from doing this via "no wall of stone/fire/teleport" is also undesirable (if each step is to be possible, the whole should be as well)

Hence, the solution is to obviously make it hard enough for the mage to set up the inescapable trap that the fighter could potentially stop it and have the battle take place over whether the trap is sprung.

That is of course if you DON'T simply give everyone magic. If anyone can "egress via supernatural means" then such a problem never arises.

[Popertop]

hack at the wall with Power Attack

after playing a Monk I figured out how fragile walls really are

[Hiro Protagonest]

Magical fire doesn't consume oxygen. :smallmad:

[El Dorado]

Full attack the mage after he casts the wall of stone. He may decide to skip the wall of fire if he takes enough damage.

[Talakeal]

While I understand that this is obviously 3E, I'm about to present a similar problem for systems in general.


Well, the question came up while discussing balance in the homebrew system I was writing, but (I thought) it was close enough enough to the 3E the people on this board where familiar with for the question to still apply if phrased in 3E terms.

Is it actually a 3E rule that magical fire doesn't consume oxygen or generate smoke, or is this just a "it doesnt say it does" RAW argument. I could have sworn that magical fire didn't work under water.

But yes, the point was with three simple spells a mage could trap a fighter, create some slow source of inescapable death, then leave, while a fighter is unlikely to be able to lock down a mage in 3 turns (or less if he has quicken, swift, contingency, 3.0 haste, etc).

[bloodtide]

But yes, the point was with three simple spells a mage could trap a fighter, create some slow source of inescapable death, then leave, while a fighter is unlikely to be able to lock down a mage in 3 turns (or less if he has quicken, swift, contingency, 3.0 haste, etc).

I guess you could say that a mage with three 'simple' (4th level + spells) could easily kill a fighter.

And lets see, how easily can a fighter kill a mage? Well, they don't have to do much more then hit the mage 2 or 3 times with a weapon. Period.

[Ashram]

Magical fire doesn't consume oxygen. :smallmad:

This. The fire is being sustained by magic; otherwise it wouldn't go out when the spell's duration was up.

[Tengu_temp]

But yes, the point was with three simple spells a mage could trap a fighter, create some slow source of inescapable death, then leave, while a fighter is unlikely to be able to lock down a mage in 3 turns (or less if he has quicken, swift, contingency, 3.0 haste, etc).

If mages are capable of doing something like that in your game, then a warrior of a similar level should be able to break out of the trap, for example by forcing his way through the stone wall. Otherwise we're entering the age-old "magic-users can do whatever they want but everyone else is restricted by RL physics" balance problem.

[AmberVael]

Magical fire doesn't consume oxygen. :smallmad:

Even if it did, assuming this is D&D... the most that wall of fire is going to be running is 2 minutes at level 20, barring some kind of Extend effect. And the bigger you make the wall of fire? The bigger the enclosure that said wall of fire is in, and thus the more oxygen it needs to consume. I can't say for sure since I don't really know the numbers, but I'm kind of doubting that you'll run out of oxygen very quickly. Hell, 2 minutes? With the kind of constitution most decent martial characters have, you could hold your breath that long. And two minutes is a long time in terms of D&D combat, certainly long enough to accomplish something.

Essentially, the wizard in this situation just handed the fighter 20 rounds to do whatever the hell he wants. That's a pretty dumb move.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If mages are capable of doing something like that in your game, then a warrior of a similar level should be able to break out of the trap, for example by forcing his way through the stone wall. Otherwise we're entering the age-old "magic-users can do whatever they want but everyone else is restricted by RL physics" balance problem.

Yep. Apparently, the wall of fire consumes oxygen, and apparently, the wall of fire doesn't need to be on something flammable.

[Urpriest]

Well, the question came up while discussing balance in the homebrew system I was writing, but (I thought) it was close enough enough to the 3E the people on this board where familiar with for the question to still apply if phrased in 3E terms.

Is it actually a 3E rule that magical fire doesn't consume oxygen or generate smoke, or is this just a "it doesnt say it does" RAW argument. I could have sworn that magical fire didn't work under water.

But yes, the point was with three simple spells a mage could trap a fighter, create some slow source of inescapable death, then leave, while a fighter is unlikely to be able to lock down a mage in 3 turns (or less if he has quicken, swift, contingency, 3.0 haste, etc).

Having looked it up, magical fire would indeed consume oxygen just like normal fire. However, the size of the wall of fire is irrelevant, as any significant fire source counts as a Medium creature no matter its size. So if the place is actually sealed (the Wall of Stone spell is ambiguous about whether or not this is possible) then the fighter will run out of air in the amount of time it takes two fighters in a room with no wall of fire to run out of air. Which is still at minimum hours.

[ericgrau]

Most martial characters can break a wall of stone in a round or two, and many fights are already over within the 3 rounds it takes to cast all those spells.

On the matter of catgirls, heat/light/fire does not consume oxygen. You need a fuel as well if for no other reason than to react with the oxygen. Even though it isn't necessary to sustain the fire itself.

[Cerlis]

well the way i thought of it was i checked if Wall of Fire was evocation or conjuration


Evocation is usually susceptible to Spell resistance. Why? because its made of magic. Its essentially magic energy shaped and acting like fire. but it is not fire.

Conjuration is not susceptible to spell resistance in most cases because the only magic is in the conjuring and perhaps any binding in place to control the conjured item. You are summoning REAL fire from the elemental plane of fire thus it acts like real fire.

Wall of fire is Evocation. Ergo it does not act like normal fire other than it being hot (and thus able to ignite some things) and its energy stabability is based off being hot, thus being able to be quenched.

[randomhero00]

Well depending on level/strength you don't need to be magical to knock down walls or doors. Also, I'd say castles/whatever most likely wouldn't be air tight, therefor it wouldn't consume all oxygen.

[ryu]

Also why is the mage not dropping the wall of stone on the martial character? I learned that at level three in a high op game when it was recommended that I buy a ring of stonewall... I'm just saying that if we want a broken spell trap just do that. Maybe stone shape to fuse said wall to the floor too.

[Urpriest]

Also why is the mage not dropping the wall of stone on the martial character? I learned that at level three in a high op game when it was recommended that I buy a ring of stonewall... I'm just saying that if we want a broken spell trap just do that. Maybe stone shape to fuse said wall to the floor too.

Wall of Stone can't fall over. That's Wall of Iron.

[Mastikator]

He can use his magical +1 Adamantine Maul of Improved Breaking Stuff to break down the wall and ignore the hardness.

Or, if he's an ogre paladin he can summon his size appropriate mount, a celestial elephant, which is so heavy that it'll break the floor.

Also, it depends entirely on the "melee"'s level and equipment, and on the system in question.
And the quality of the castle, the duration of the Wall of Fire, the effects of the Wall of Fire.

[Cerlis]

Also why is the mage not dropping the wall of stone on the martial character? I learned that at level three in a high op game when it was recommended that I buy a ring of stonewall... I'm just saying that if we want a broken spell trap just do that. Maybe stone shape to fuse said wall to the floor too.

I think you cant summon things unless its on something that can support them. Thus you cant summon it in the air or on something that it would make collapse.

[jseah]

Otherwise we're entering the age-old "magic-users can do whatever they want but everyone else is restricted by RL physics" balance problem.
Not necessarily.

I am currently writing a magic system which has lethality turned up quite alot. At present, it is all too easy to simply chuck an arrow at a mage and he will just die.

In fact, after I have created my stat system, I will need to go through and balance the whole thing and I will find that I have made magic way too weak.

Despite restricting everyone to RL physics without magic, if you make learning to cast magic missile as difficult to learn as high school physics and fireball somewhere around a doctorate in magical physics, and every single spell of similar calibers have to be learnt like that, then magic is very very underpowered indeed.

I learnt to shoot reasonably accurately with a bow in a matter of a few weeks and I can probably hit a man-sized target pretty far away. And I'm still a newbie who can't draw and aim very quickly.
If I had a bow and nocked arrow, I could probably kill one of the mages in my system before he cast a single spell (casting times are measured in seconds, with the simplest attack spell at least 3)
And the simplest attack spell at low power is about as powerful as good punch, certain to put me down for good, but kill me? Probably not. Of course, if he's powerful and high level, he could kill any number of modern police but it will take fantastically high power and good preparation.

It's like the difference between the early gun and the bow. The bow is more accurate and faster, but it is also very hard to use properly. The gun is less accurate and generally a pretty crap weapon, but you can give it to a peasant recruit and have him use it sufficiently well in a month.
And if the gun or bow hits you, you're still dead. Don't get much deader than that.


And think about it. Exactly how much stuff do you want magic to make at any one time? Let's say, creating 200ml of water is about the same as magic missile. A simple spell. Now think about the wall of stone, half a meter thick, 3 meters tall and 10 meters across. Note how much more that is? Even if spell levels were quadratic in power progression, level 1 = cup of water or small pebble means the above wall of stone is level 273.8.

If you enforce RL physics for everyone, at least have the decency to enforce scaling laws for magic and magic becomes sane once again all the while violating RL physics.

[Tengu_temp]

If you enforce RL physics for everyone, at least have the decency to enforce scaling laws for magic and magic becomes sane once again all the while violating RL physics.

I agree, but when you do something like that then magic-users can't do whatever they want anymore, can they? Their limitations put them on comparable power level to others.

[Jay R]

All other things being equal, if the mage gets two or three actions before the fighter gets any, the mage should win. This is the scenario being presented.

But also, if the fighter gets two or three actions before the mage gets any, the fighter should win.

[TopherKersting]

I don't know the 3E rules for spell disruption, so I don't know if the mage can cast while the fighter is beating him to a pulp.

Topher

[Lysander]

How could Wall of Fire consume oxygen? Fire only consumes oxygen because it uses it to oxidize the fuel its burning. If there's no fuel source where does the oxygen go?

But as for the general question (whether it's a wall of stone or some other trap) here's how I would escape. I'd bang on the wall, so my mage friend on the other side knows to teleport in and get me out. What, you didn't think I was going to go on a mission without caster support?

[Talakeal]

How could Wall of Fire consume oxygen? Fire only consumes oxygen because it uses it to oxidize the fuel its burning. If there's no fuel source where does the oxygen go?

But as for the general question (whether it's a wall of stone or some other trap) here's how I would escape. I'd bang on the wall, so my mage friend on the other side knows to teleport in and get me out. What, you didn't think I was going to go on a mission without caster support?

That was actually the point of the discussion, that no matter how well I balance a mage mechanically a fighter is still at there mercy without a mage of their own.

[Morghen]

So many of these Fighter vs. Mage questions are being asked from a "Fighters must have an intelligence lower than 6" standpoint.

Why doesn't the fighter use one of his items to get out?
Or use one of his items to not be in the situation in the first place?

I barely know 3e (but as I understand it, it IS still a D&D product) and I know nothing of 4e, so maybe the items that fighters are allowed to use are all bunk, but when I see fighters being discussed I see the people playing them loading up SOLELY on items that make them charge harder and give them a better AC and give them a better chance to hit and make them do more damage and increase their saves and... pretty much just increase their killing ability.

For the purposes of this discussion magic items are limited to those that most such characters always have on them.I quoted this the first time I replied, and it's worth quoting again. That quote right there is EXACTLY THE PROBLEM.


-I don't (usually) see things that boost your mobility. And I don't mean speed. I mean things like flying, or blinking, or turning into a mist, or climbing like a spider, or passing through walls.
-I don't see things that let them scout an enemy from a distance. Stuff like Clairvoyance, Clairaudience, ESP, gear to detect living things, gear to detect treasure.


This is a legit question and if you (Talakeal) ignore everything else I've said here, answering this will help us better answer your question:
Why is the fighter in that room in the first place?

[Talakeal]

I don't know for sure, the question was posed to me and I couldn't think of an answer. I believe he was a proffesional with hunter employed by a church that believes all mages are evil and should be destroyed and so he is ambushing the wizard in his study.

Items that grant effects like that are usually very specialized and expensive and most characters, especially in a lower magic setting, won't have an excess of them, and scrolls / wands require you either be a caster or have the use magic device skill to activate, out of the martial characters I believe only rogues have UMD.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Items that grant effects like that are usually very specialized and expensive and most characters, especially in a lower magic setting, won't have an excess of them, and scrolls / wands require you either be a caster or have the use magic device skill to activate, out of the martial characters I believe only rogues have UMD.

For some bizarre reason, a lot of people think "low magic" means "sure Dave, you can play a wizard, you're the exception, not the rule. But Fred, this is a low magic setting, you can't get that +3 sword at 10th level". You wouldn't happen to be one of these people, would you?

[Morghen]

I believe he was a proffesional with hunter employed by a church that believes all mages are evil and should be destroyedHis whole JOB is specifically killing mages? Then he's either going after too big a fish or he's going to have appropriate resources.

and so he is ambushing the wizard in his study.WHAT. THE. ****.

Why on earth is he ambushing the mage on the mage's home turf? That's insanity... and that's exactly the problem. During these Fighter vs. Mage discussions people are talking like it's Wolverine vs. Magneto. Wolverine is going to lose EVERY SINGLE TIME and so will the Fighter if the Fighter heads on over to the mage's home and tries to walk up and murder him in the face. Instead of Wolverine vs. Magneto, it should be Batman vs. Anybody But Superman (yes, I know Batman beat him that one time, but things had to go really right).

"Oh, I'm facing another beater? OK, I've got my [item], [item], and [item]."
"Oh, I'm facing a Rogue? OK, I've got my [item], [item], and [item]."
"Oh, I'm facing a Mage? OK, I've got my [item], [item], and [item]."

If you are correctly playing a character whose sole reason for membership in a party is that you're the guy who kills people face to face, then you should be able to do your job in all kinds of conditions, facing all manner of foes.


Items that grant effects like that are usually very specialized and expensive and most characters, especially in a lower magic setting, If it's a low-magic setting where The People Fear Magic, then the Fighter is going to have a mob. Or he's going to kill the Mage when the Mage is using the public toilet on Market Day and all the people will cheer him. Walking up to the Mage's house and typing [USE SWORD] is a great way to need a fresh character sheet.


won't have an excess of them, and scrolls / wands require you either be a caster or have the use magic device skill to activate, out of the martial characters I believe only rogues have UMD.Rings? Potions? Weird weapons? Weird shields?

[Urpriest]

To answer your question, Morghen, most intelligently played fighter-types will indeed invest in mobility-enhancing magic items. One that gave a long-distance teleport would be expensive, but, for example, I've seen martial characters with armor of etherealness. So yeah, that sort of thing would work.

[Morghen]

On reflection, my last post could come across as grumpy at Talakeal. That's not what I intended.

I think the situation Talakeal was presented in the original post was a set-up. Intentional or not, that's a terrible situation to put a fighter in. On the other end of the spectrum, and very much related:

"You're a 10th-level mage. Memorize spells for an underwater encounter against creatures very susceptible to illusions. Ready?"

"You will now be teleported into a room containing 10 mummies. The room is warded against further teleportation, and the only door is blocked by an Earth Elemental. See ya!"

If you're set up to fail, you're probably going to fail.

[Talakeal]

While I do agree it is not the optimal setting to fight a mage I don't think its neccesarily a set up. The only premise is "medium sized room with only one exit" and make a non magic character prepared for a generic enemy spellcaster rather than the specific opponent.

[Morghen]

While I do agree it is not the optimal setting to fight a mage I don't think its neccesarily a set up. The only premise is "medium sized room with only one exit" and make a non magic character prepared for a generic enemy spellcaster rather than the specific opponent.Yes. In a theoretical space, like Morpheus vs. Neo, and you limit the items he's carrying to "Dumb Fighter" items, then yes, the Fighter is borked.

If I'm a witch-hunter and I know where the wizard's house is, I WILL NEVER, EVER, EVER ATTACK HIM THERE. That's the one spot he knows he can throw wards around like crazy and he keeps all his extra stuff there.

Instead:
I camp out nearby (forest? alley?) and watch his movements for a week or so. When he goes to town (or if he lives in town: when he goes to the store), I light his house on fire. Also, I pay a team of kids to cut his purse-strings right as two kids run up and toss handfuls of coins at him. Then I have a couple of people shoot him with poisoned arrows that are also Arrows +1. Then I laugh while he looks for his components to recast Stoneskin and then I shoot him with an Arrow of Slay Living.

[Morghen]

Longer version:

I befriend him. Then kill him while he's on the toilet.

[Eric Tolle]

I hire a bard to convince the wizard to go on a quest for the Ultimate McGuffin of Ultimate Ultimateness, and then while he's gone, set his tower on fire. Even if the walls are stone, the roof and interior likely aren't.

[Moose Man]

Fight fire with fire. If that doesn't work, you aren't using enough fire.

[Urpriest]

Longer version:

I befriend him. Then kill him while he's on the toilet.

One of this forum's more notorious optimizers once commented that the only person who can kill an optimized high level wizard is said wizard's girlfriend, because that's the only person who can have a plausible excuse for keeping the wizard from getting enough sleep to prepare defensive spells.

[Honest Tiefling]

Clone girlfriend. Make it look like the mage did it. No sleep for you! Bonus points if you dye the clone's hair a different color or put her into more stylish clothing.

[jmelesky]

One of this forum's more notorious optimizers once commented that the only person who can kill an optimized high level wizard is said wizard's girlfriend, because that's the only person who can have a plausible excuse for keeping the wizard from getting enough sleep to prepare defensive spells.

I'm pretty sure a marching band practicing next door would do it, too.

[Moose Man]

Silence takes care of that, and with uncanny forethought shenanigans, they would most likely have it.