Natural Weapons in Grapple

[Mystify]

I am trying to figure out precisely how natural weapons function while grappling.

Normally, you only get 1 attack with a natural weapon, regardless of BaB.

In the grapple section, it states "If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses."

one of those actions is "Attack Your Opponent

You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons."

Does this mean you get to make multiple attacks with a natural weapon? The "can't attack with 2 weapons" bit implies that you can't use multiple natural weapons. What if you want to do "natural weapon/dagger/dagger" as your attack progression? What about with the damage your opponent clause:
"Damage Your Opponent

While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check."

Can you mix a natural weapon strike with generic grapple attempts? It seems like you could mix grapple checks with normal weapon attacks.

Anybody know how this is supposed to work?

[No brains]

That's a GOOD one.

If high BAB offers multiple natural attacks this would mean that monsters with Improved Grab, Constrict, and BAB +6 can damage their target four times. Don't even think about rakes and rends!

This would make That Damned Crab positively INFERNAL. Good thing its BAB is only +5. Sighs of relief anyone?

[Greenish]

This would make That Damned Crab positively INFERNAL. Good thing its BAB is only +5. Sighs of relief anyone?Sighs of relief? What, you want to be heard by those advanced monstrous grabs?

Not to mention fleshrakers with their Leaping Pounce. Or the advanced fleshraker with 12 HD.

[holywhippet]

You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons."

Does this mean you get to make multiple attacks with a natural weapon? The "can't attack with 2 weapons" bit implies that you can't use multiple natural weapons. What if you want to do "natural weapon/dagger/dagger" as your attack progression? What about with the damage your opponent clause:
"Damage Your Opponent


This is just to stop someone from dual wielding and attacking with both weapons. Logically you can't attack with both as you need one hand to hold on to your opponent.

Honestly I think the penalty shouldn't apply to anyone with unarmed attack feats since laying in the knee at close range is part of martial arts.

[Urpriest]

If high BAB offers multiple natural attacks this would mean that monsters with Improved Grab, Constrict, and BAB +6 can damage their target four times. Don't even think about rakes and rends!


Nope, just twice. You're forgetting that grapple checks take up attacks. So with +6 BAB you get two checks, which can either be grapple checks (Improved Grab and Constrict both deal damage here), or natural attacks. So while they can damage their target four times, that's only if none of their attacks (barring rakes) are natural attacks.

[Mystify]

Constrict multiple times looks RAW, regardless of how you interpret the natural weapons. Constrict occurs when you make a successful grapple check, and it is very clear you can use multiple grapple checks in a round to deal damage.

[Greenish]

Constrict multiple times looks RAW, regardless of how you interpret the natural weapons. Constrict occurs when you make a successful grapple check, and it is very clear you can use multiple grapple checks in a round to deal damage.Yeah, that works. Getting constrict on a grapple-focused PC is pretty fun.

[Mystify]

The reason I am asking is I was making a grappler build, and I have a gore attack that deals 1 1/2 str damage if you don't use any other attack. So the real question is whether I can iterate this for awesome grapple damage, or if I should stick to doing grapple checks with beast strike to dig in with my claws instead.

Though if the "can't attack with 2 weapons" bit doesn't apply to natural weapons, how does a monster with multiple natural attacks work in grapple? I have a gore attack, 2 claws, and (eventually) 4 tentacles to work with.

On a similar note, what happens if you are grappling a hydra?

[Urpriest]

The reason I am asking is I was making a grappler build, and I have a gore attack that deals 1 1/2 str damage if you don't use any other attack. So the real question is whether I can iterate this for awesome grapple damage, or if I should stick to doing grapple checks with beast strike to dig in with my claws instead.

Though if the "can't attack with 2 weapons" bit doesn't apply to natural weapons, how does a monster with multiple natural attacks work in grapple? I have a gore attack, 2 claws, and (eventually) 4 tentacles to work with.

On a similar note, what happens if you are grappling a hydra?

AFAICT:

Monsters with multiple natural attacks gain no benefit from them in a grapple except for rake, as otherwise they just get to use one, but get iteratives with it.

If you want to double-dip that gore, may I suggest Improved Grab (from, for example, Spirit Bear Totem Barbarian), which lets you deal damage with the grabbing weapon whenever you succeed at a grapple check, and Constrict (from, for example, Crushing Weight of the Mountain stance) which deals damage whenever you succeed on a grapple check. If you want to get zanier, Black Blood Cultist it up.

[Greenish]

If you want to double-dip that gore, may I suggest Improved Grab (from, for example, Spirit Bear Totem Barbarian), which lets you deal damage with the grabbing weapon whenever you succeed at a grapple check, and Constrict (from, for example, Crushing Weight of the Mountain stance) which deals damage whenever you succeed on a grapple check. If you want to get zanier, Black Blood Cultist it up.Or Thayan Gladiator. Free enhancements on your natural weapon, and an extra attack with it (which stacks with the Haste you can slap on it). Full BAB and d12 HD don't hurt, either.

[Mystify]

If you want to double-dip that gore, may I suggest Improved Grab (from, for example, Spirit Bear Totem Barbarian), which lets you deal damage with the grabbing weapon whenever you succeed at a grapple check, and Constrict (from, for example, Crushing Weight of the Mountain stance) which deals damage whenever you succeed on a grapple check. If you want to get zanier, Black Blood Cultist it up.

I already have improved grab and crushing weight of the mountain worked in. blood blood cultist is mostly redundant, though the lv 8 ability to deal damage with everything is impressive, I can't afford that many levels. Actually, I probably could, if I really wanted to, but I am more focused on a really high grapple check. I am still nailing down the details, but I do know that at level 6 I am at least par with a baleen whale for grapple checks.

[Keld Denar]

The no two weapon clause pretty much means no TWF.

If your BAB is high, you get multiple grapple actions. If you attack with a natural weapon, that counts as one of them. You still can't violate the "one attack per natural weapon" clause, though. So if you have 2 claws and a bite, but you only have a +6 BAB, you can make any 2 of the 3. If you have a BAB of +16, you can make all 3 and one other grapple action.

[Mystify]

The no two weapon clause pretty much means no TWF.

If your BAB is high, you get multiple grapple actions. If you attack with a natural weapon, that counts as one of them. You still can't violate the "one attack per natural weapon" clause, though. So if you have 2 claws and a bite, but you only have a +6 BAB, you can make any 2 of the 3. If you have a BAB of +16, you can make all 3 and one other grapple action.
I see. Do you still take the penalty for iterative attacks, or do you use secondary natural weapon rules instead?

[Big Fau]

Yeah, that works. Getting constrict on a grapple-focused PC is pretty fun.

Stone Dragon offers it as a stance, and Totemists get it with a Chakra Bind.

[Mystify]

On furhter review, getting constrict and using that is a lot better than trying to gore multiple times. I am looking at over 120 damage... per grapple check. Thats not even counting every strength buff I'll be manifesting.

[Greenish]

Stone Dragon offers it as a stance, and Totemists get it with a Chakra Bind.And nature's warrior gets it as a one-level dip (that progresses wildshaping). Not a great PrC, but Wildshape Ranger pretty much automatically qualifies.

[No brains]

Nope, just twice. You're forgetting that grapple checks take up attacks. So with +6 BAB you get two checks, which can either be grapple checks (Improved Grab and Constrict both deal damage here), or natural attacks. So while they can damage their target four times, that's only if none of their attacks (barring rakes) are natural attacks.

This little bit of text from Improved Grab confused me:

"A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text)."

Source: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_improvedgrab&alpha=

I'm not sure I'm interpreting the grammar right (the 'as well' part seems odd), but it seems Constrict damage is ADDED to the damage of the Grabbing weapon. Also, ANY grapple check will deal both weapon and Constrict damage.

So on Improved Grabber's turn, Full Attack to damage enemy for UAS+Improved Grab weapon+Constrict and again for the same formula.

I'm a little scared of grabbers now.:smalleek: Somebody please tell me I'm screwing this up so Chokers don't kill before initiative.

[Greenish]

I'm not sure I'm interpreting the grammar right (the 'as well' part seems odd), but it seems Constrict damage is ADDED to the damage of the Grabbing weapon.Yeah, Constrict triggers every time you win a grapple check (say, when your enemy is trying to escape the grapple). :smallamused:

[ericgrau]

^ No you have that in reverse. You declare a constrict and then use one of your attacks to make a grapple check. If you succeed you deal constrict damage. It's not on every random check. If you have improved grab you also get constrict damage upon establishing the initial hold in addition to the weapon damage that triggered the grab, that one time. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#constrict

You get 1 attack per attack granted by BAB regardless of the number of natural attacks you have. All attacks are at a -4 to hit. Other special grappling attacks like constrict or rake may apply, often using grapple checks rather than penalized attack rolls.

[Urpriest]

This little bit of text from Improved Grab confused me:

"A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text)."

Source: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_improvedgrab&alpha=

I'm not sure I'm interpreting the grammar right (the 'as well' part seems odd), but it seems Constrict damage is ADDED to the damage of the Grabbing weapon. Also, ANY grapple check will deal both weapon and Constrict damage.

So on Improved Grabber's turn, Full Attack to damage enemy for UAS+Improved Grab weapon+Constrict and again for the same formula.

I'm a little scared of grabbers now.:smalleek: Somebody please tell me I'm screwing this up so Chokers don't kill before initiative.

You don't do UAS+Improved Grab. The Improved Grab damage replaces the UAS damage, since either is just the weapon you used to grab.


^ No you have that in reverse. You declare a constrict and then use one of your attacks to make a grapple check. If you succeed you deal constrict damage. It's not on every random check. If you have improved grab you also get constrict damage upon establishing the initial hold in addition to the weapon damage that triggered the grab, that one time. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#constrict


Care to back that up? The entry you quoted is ambiguous, while the one for Improved Grab is quite explicit.

[ericgrau]

A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

Seems the same to me. What's the confusion?

It's also covered more specifically in the grapple rules, where one of your options is to make a grapple check to deal grapple damage. If you're talking about damage then that would be the more specific source to go to, whereas improved grab is merely summarizing it in more general terms.

[Mystify]

Here's how I'm reading it:
Assuming you have both improved grab and constrict,

You make an attack as normal. This deals damage, and you get a free grapple check.
If you suceed on this check, you get to deal your constrict damage, and you are now grappling.

On subsequent rounds:

You use the combat option to deal damage with a grapple check. If you succeed, you deal damage equal to the improved grab attack, plus constrict damage on top of that. You may iterate this attack at increasingly larger penalties to the grapple check, depending on BaB.

[ericgrau]

Constrict (Ex)
On a successful grapple check, a constrictor snake deals 1d3+4 points of damage.

A constrictor snake has a 1d3+4 bite and constrict 1d3+4. Note that the above text does not say 2d3+8.

I think the rule means to say when the snake first bites it gets both bite and constrict damage due to the improved grab ability triggering a grapple upon a bite. After that it only gets constrict damage. i.e., it is explaining how to handle the fact that you just hit something with a weapon to initiate the grapple, thanks to improved grab. After that improved grab no longer plays a role b/c the improved grabbing is over and done with.

[Mystify]

A constrictor snake has a 1d3+4 bite and constrict 1d3+4. Note that the above text does not say 2d3+8.

I think the rule means to say when the snake first bites it gets both bite and constrict damage due to the improved grab ability triggering a grapple upon a bite. After that it only gets constrict damage. i.e., it is explaining how to handle the fact that you just hit something with a weapon to initiate the grapple, thanks to improved grab. After that improved grab no longer plays a role b/c the improved grabbing is over and done with.

But that is listing hte constrict damage explicitely. The entry in improved grab says it will do that. If that is really the case, then what benefit is it getting from constrict? The improved grab would let it do 1d3+4 on a successful grapple check without the constrict.

Note the "If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well "

This is quite clear, you get both.