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View Full Version : Blindsight vs. Actual Sight



Callos_DeTerran
2011-06-02, 08:35 PM
This is a rather simple question, but how good is blindsight? I know it ignores certain powerful spells and makes sneaking an impossibility within it's range. So it seems pretty awesome.

My question is, would it be worth giving up your normal sight? I found a PrC from Dragon Magazine, and I'm working on a PrC of my own, that gives Blindsight 30 ft. and eventually 60 ft. The cost is that you lose your normal sight and, if you recover it you lose the blindsight. Is it worth it? It's worth noting that there's no restriction on using something like Prying Eyes or Arcane Eyes and see through them (which is difficult because they have a set duration) so I guess that's one way to get around being able to see 60 ft, but my question remains. Is blindsight 60 ft. worth giving up normal sight?

dsmiles
2011-06-02, 08:37 PM
This is a rather simple question, but how good is blindsight? I know it ignores certain powerful spells and makes sneaking an impossibility within it's range. So it seems pretty awesome.

My question is, would it be worth giving up your normal sight? I found a PrC from Dragon Magazine, and I'm working on a PrC of my own, that gives Blindsight 30 ft. and eventually 60 ft. The cost is that you lose your normal sight and, if you recover it you lose the blindsight. Is it worth it? It's worth noting that there's no restriction on using something like Prying Eyes or Arcane Eyes and see through them (which is difficult because they have a set duration) so I guess that's one way to get around being able to see 60 ft, but my question remains. Is blindsight 60 ft. worth giving up normal sight?
Do I think Blindsight is awesome?
Yes.

Would I give up normal sight to get Blindsight 60'?
Nope.

Biggest drawback would be the fact that you can only see 60'. Ever.

NNescio
2011-06-02, 08:43 PM
This is a rather simple question, but how good is blindsight? I know it ignores certain powerful spells and makes sneaking an impossibility within it's range. So it seems pretty awesome.

My question is, would it be worth giving up your normal sight? I found a PrC from Dragon Magazine, and I'm working on a PrC of my own, that gives Blindsight 30 ft. and eventually 60 ft. The cost is that you lose your normal sight and, if you recover it you lose the blindsight. Is it worth it? It's worth noting that there's no restriction on using something like Prying Eyes or Arcane Eyes and see through them (which is difficult because they have a set duration) so I guess that's one way to get around being able to see 60 ft, but my question remains. Is blindsight 60 ft. worth giving up normal sight?

It's worth 9000 GP. (http://www.google.com/search?sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=uxe&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&source=hp&q=blindfold+of+true+darkness&btnG=Search)

Zaydos
2011-06-02, 09:41 PM
It's worth 9000 GP. (http://www.google.com/search?sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=uxe&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&source=hp&q=blindfold+of+true+darkness&btnG=Search)

But you can easily regain sight by taking off the blindfold.

Archwizard
2011-06-02, 09:55 PM
Do I think Blindsight is awesome?
Yes.

Would I give up normal sight to get Blindsight 60'?
Nope.

Biggest drawback would be the fact that you can only see 60'. Ever.

This.

Though I know someone that might help you lose those eyes if you want... :belkar:

NNescio
2011-06-02, 11:20 PM
But you can easily regain sight by taking off the blindfold.

Okay, worse than 9000 GP, which makes the class feature undoubtedly awful.

Seharvepernfan
2011-06-03, 07:37 AM
No, it is not worth it.

At lower levels, possibly, but not permanently and not at higher levels and not outside, ever.

Scouts get it as a class feature while retaining all of their other abilities.

As has been pointed out, you can get it with an item fairly easily.

What you might want to do instead is allow the class the ability to have blindsight and enhanced abilities while using it (by closing their eyes or wearing a blindfold), but they can still open their eyes if they need or want to and see normally. Perhaps make the blindsight something that they have to get acclimated to again whenever they use normal vision, such as by wearing the blindfold, or staying in a dark room or cave, or otherwise not using their eyes (and not having blindsight for the duration of the acclimation period). I would even give such a class a few spell like abilities that mimic arcane/prying eyes, or even clairvoyance or scrying, usable for limited periods of time.

The more I talk, the more ideas I get. If you were to make it a blindsight only ability, consider giving the class a feature that lowers the distance penalty on listen checks. That way they can still perceive what is going on beyond their 30/60 foot radius. Also, it makes sense if their hearing increases in power. Consider the feat "hear the unseen".

Yora
2011-06-03, 08:09 AM
Another drawback of blindsight is the inability to see color. Which makes reading or using maps impossible. You also can't see faces. You don't bump into anything and know where everything is, but there's a lot more interesting things that you need actual sight for.

Callos_DeTerran
2011-06-03, 08:43 AM
At lower levels, possibly, but not permanently and not at higher levels and not outside, ever.

Scouts get it as a class feature while retaining all of their other abilities.

As has been pointed out, you can get it with an item fairly easily.

At lower levels, the things blindsight negates can't even be used. And I admit it's a liability outside, but the PrC (in both cases) is developed and created by a subterranean species. Where tunnels and such often don't extend beyond 60 ft. of open space without turning or some such.

Scouts get it at as 20th level ability and only to 30 ft. Just pointing that out is all. :smallwink:

I don't like the idea of having it as an item actually, not when such an ability is meant to be a feature of the character. Items can be dispelled, destroyed, removed, stolen, etc. An ability can't.


I would even give such a class a few spell like abilities that mimic arcane/prying eyes, or even clairvoyance or scrying, usable for limited periods of time.

The more I talk, the more ideas I get. If you were to make it a blindsight only ability, consider giving the class a feature that lowers the distance penalty on listen checks. That way they can still perceive what is going on beyond their 30/60 foot radius. Also, it makes sense if their hearing increases in power. Consider the feat "hear the unseen".

See, these ideas I like!


Another drawback of blindsight is the inability to see color. Which makes reading or using maps impossible. You also can't see faces. You don't bump into anything and know where everything is, but there's a lot more interesting things that you need actual sight for.

Actually, this is something I'll be addressing in the class, but...


Some creatures have blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of such senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such sense may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This ability makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can’t see ethereal creatures and must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description.

The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature’s description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn.

Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight.

Where's it say you can't make out the details of someone's face?

graeylin
2011-06-04, 07:54 PM
you can probably make out the contours of their face; nose, lips, even eyebrows and hair.

You can't see eye color.
You can't read a scroll, map, book, or paper/vellum writing.
You can't see shadows (the normal, mundane kind cast by people or objects).
You can't tell uniforms apart, can't tell gold from silver, can't know if that was a $5 gold bill or $100 gold bill you just got handed. You won't know if your change is correct.
You won't know who's banner is flying at the head of that knight's lance.
You also won't know what limning is on his shield.
And you won't know if that's a white flag of surrender, or just a scrap of red cloth.
You can't tell if your partner is dying of carbon monoxide poisoning, or if he is turning blue from asphyxia.
You won't know your cloak has a smudge of dirt on it.
You can't read that symbol on the wand or staff.

Solaris
2011-06-04, 08:15 PM
But on the upside, you'd be Daredevil.

Honestly? To be worth the tradeoff, losing regular vision and whatnot, you'd need greater distance. Perhaps blindsense at twice the distance, and the base is 60 ft/90 ft (so blindsense 120/180 ft).