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BRC
2011-06-02, 10:05 PM
So, I was reading through the SCS campaign archives the other day, and something struck me, how the DM would have these big, largely empty buildings that they would use to help establish the mood.

And that's something that I can't do.
When I make adventures, I find myself thinking in terms of encounters, whether it's combat, a trap, or a conversation, I find myself building adventures as lists of challenges. I lose alot of storytelling possibilities here. If there isn't anything for the PC's to find in a room, I find myself rushing them along until they get to a room where I have something for them to do. If there are important features, I draw attention to them rather than smoothly working them into the narrative, I find myself saying things like "You are in another crumbling room, you notice statues of dragons".

I would like to change this. I would like to be able to run "Empty" scenes, I would like to be able to have the PC's exploring ancient ruins and have more to say about each room than "You are in another room, there are three doors". I want the players to remember scenes without monsters/traps/other challenges as more than the place where they said "We continue onwards".
So, any advice for how to make my worlds seem like more than a series of challenges. I'm good at making characters, I'm bad at giving locations character.

Steward
2011-06-02, 10:50 PM
Maybe if you make up the history (even if you don't share it with the players), it might help you add texture. It's hard to think of memorable stuff about Generic Room #4, but what if it was the mystical laboratory of Princess Neph-Ter-Et, and she kept her books on a shelf on the far wall and over here is a scorch mark from a magic missile mishap, and beneath it are drag marks from an old cauldron installation, and over there you can see the smudged remains of a summoning circle. You can scatter little tidbits like that throughout the scene description (adding more details if the players seem to be interested or if it is really important to the adventure) and hopefully that will stick in their minds.

Xyk
2011-06-02, 11:02 PM
Steward has it. I'll elaborate. Say you have a dungeon. Who built the dungeon? Why? What purpose did each room originally serve? Is the original owner still living there or using it for it's original purpose? Are there new residents? How do they use the dungeon? What are the results of all the uses of the rooms?

Like Steward said, a laboratory might have scorch-marks and books, while a torture chamber is gonna have blood everywhere, a mess hall is gonna have stains and heavily used furniture.

Archwizard
2011-06-02, 11:03 PM
So, I was reading through the SCS campaign archives the other day, and something struck me, how the DM would have these big, largely empty buildings that they would use to help establish the mood.

And that's something that I can't do.
When I make adventures, I find myself thinking in terms of encounters, whether it's combat, a trap, or a conversation, I find myself building adventures as lists of challenges. I lose alot of storytelling possibilities here. If there isn't anything for the PC's to find in a room, I find myself rushing them along until they get to a room where I have something for them to do. If there are important features, I draw attention to them rather than smoothly working them into the narrative, I find myself saying things like "You are in another crumbling room, you notice statues of dragons".

I would like to change this. I would like to be able to run "Empty" scenes, I would like to be able to have the PC's exploring ancient ruins and have more to say about each room than "You are in another room, there are three doors". I want the players to remember scenes without monsters/traps/other challenges as more than the place where they said "We continue onwards".
So, any advice for how to make my worlds seem like more than a series of challenges. I'm good at making characters, I'm bad at giving locations character.

When I wrote my most recent 3.5 campaign that I ran, the players had to invade a 5-story tower where a powerful necromancer lived who was experimenting on people and trying to build the ultimate undead.

I decided that the tower was an old tower owned by a long-forgotten noble and taken over by the necromancer. So the first thing I did was built the tower as the lord would have had it, thinking about the purpose of each room (e.g. sitting room, receiving room, display room, kitchen, pantry, foyer, etc). After the tower was built, I then went through and decided which rooms had been re-purposed by the necromancer to suit his current needs. Then I decided which of the remaining rooms he had previously used (for whatever). Finally, I decided which rooms simply were falling into disrepair.

This gave the players a realm to explore with a clear history and purpose, and quite a few of the rooms were empty and served no real purpose in terms of the goals. But because I had taken the time to design the tower, I could describe how there were rotting chairs in the corner of the ladies' sitting room, and the dust in the adjoining bedroom was so thick that the PCs' footsteps were clearly visible. In the library the PCs found journals written by the necromancer describing some of his past research, things that had been written decades ago. The journals were clearly filed away as the necromancer moved on to other lines on inquiry.

Did any of those things actually help the PCs achieve their goal? Not at all, but it gave them a sense of history and purpose to the whole place, and helped the immersiveness of the campaign. It also meant that I had something to talk about in every room and wasn't giving anything away when I suddenly described something.

So my point here is this: Build your world first. Then add the encounters. If you build the world and really take some time with it, it'll increase your ownership of it and make it feel more coherent. Both will increase your ability to RP it.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-06-02, 11:19 PM
Write box text. Just like you see in modules.

When the Players are going to enter a space where you'd like to set the mood, take out the box text (roughly a paragraph) that you wrote and read it to them. Dramatically, if you can.

And then silently count to 30 before doing anything aside from answering their questions.

Unless you've trained your PCs too much by this point, they should start asking random questions about the area and explore it. If you focus on answering their questions (even if it is just by improv) you'll find that they will treat the spaces are real places.

Yes, it takes a lot of time but it's the only way to retrain yourself. Heck, I need to get into the habit myself!

BRC
2011-06-02, 11:33 PM
Alright, lots of good advice here. I now know some steps to take the next time I'm planning my game. Keep it up though, this is a good discussions.

Of course, the problem is going to be running the game. I tend to get excited about the various challenges I have prepared. I will need to either become invested enough in these "Empty" rooms to savor them, rather than rushing things along until the PC's find the next challenge, or I will simply need to train myself to let the game run at the player's pace. I have a feeling I'll be skimming over the box text, just reading off lists of features rather than actual descriptions of each room, trying to hurry things along. I'm my own worst enemy in this particular situation.

Archwizard
2011-06-02, 11:36 PM
Alright, lots of good advice here. I now know some steps to take the next time I'm planning my game. Keep it up though, this is a good discussions.

Of course, the problem is going to be running the game. I tend to get excited about the various challenges I have prepared. I will need to either become invested enough in these "Empty" rooms to savor them, rather than rushing things along until the PC's find the next challenge, or I will simply need to train myself to let the game run at the player's pace. I have a feeling I'll be skimming over the box text, just reading off lists of features rather than actual descriptions of each room, trying to hurry things along. I'm my own worst enemy in this particular situation.

Get excited about showing off the cool environment you've built.

Get excited by the idea that 3 rooms of exploration yielding nothing means that room 4 where exploration pays off is that much more fulfilling to the players.

And yes, slow yourself down.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-06-02, 11:39 PM
I have a feeling I'll be skimming over the box text, just reading off lists of features rather than actual descriptions of each room, trying to hurry things along. I'm my own worst enemy in this particular situation.
Which is why you need to write out the text, and read it. If you worry about reading it quickly, then enunciate each word - like you were delivering a speech.

Also, save the "list of features" until the very end.

Example:

The courtyard of the castle is abandoned and shows wear and tear from years of neglect. The training fields are overgrown and mouldering piles of now-unidentifiable equipment and scattered throughout. About a hundred yards away lies the heart of the castle, its stonework crumbling from the elements but still sound. There is an eerie silence about the place, with the normal sounds of night creatures absent for some reason.
If you write your box text like this, there's not much to "skip to" and if you concentrate on speaking evenly, you'll keep yourself from rushing.

mathemagician
2011-06-03, 06:02 AM
Just remember that empty rooms a lot of the times can cause players to pay attention to the most random, insane details. "He said the buttons were blue! That one cleric wore blue! I bet we can push his buttons!" "No, it fill the room with water!" Waaaagh let's panic over decisions for an hour. Then, when they finally get over this, they miss the "obvious" details too.

Instead, ask yourself all these cool story building questions, and then incorporate them into the set pieces you already have.

Do the characters recognize the armor of the skeletal guard? Are the gold coins minted from a time long ago, when djinn had a city here? Fill the rooms you know they're going to spend time in, and it will help make those encounters memorable.

"Remember when those skeletons that necromancer summoned were all wearing ancient armor, and fought in the style of the royal guard from the Era of Kings?"

Or a favorite of my players: they looted a wedding ring off a ghoul that was trying to kill them. They keyed in on that, and I used it as an excuse to fill the rest of the rooms with heirlooms from that long forgotten marriage.

dsmiles
2011-06-03, 08:24 AM
Here's a bit of advice:

Put something in the room to describe. If you can swing yourself a copy of the 1e DMG (good luck!) there's a table of random Dungeon Dressing in the back. It's an excellent starting point. (There's a whole bunch of other awesome stuff back there too!)

Jarawara
2011-06-03, 11:06 AM
I agree with all the comments about thinking up the history of the room, what it was designed for, what it was used for, what occured within it. Very good advice, it will add detail to your inner-eye vision of the room, which you can then draw upon when describing it to your players.

But in addition to thinking about the room's history... think about it's future. What do you intend to use the room for, after the party has passed through it?

Obviously, for most rooms, that answer is probably nothing. But sometimes, these rooms might form the setting for a future encounter or roleplaying scene.

*~*

Sometimes that is a short-term future. Bad guys want to ambush the party, they choose a place, but they let the party pass and enter the depths of the dungeon... and hopefully get beat up a bit before returning this way. Describe the room in great depth, because later this room will be the location of the ambush -- and maybe the party can find clues to that ambush if they search for it now. Or maybe they can find advantages within the room, if they study the layout and remember it when the ambush occurs.

Example: Great Hall with a series of archways. Archers could hide behind the columns supporting the archways, and soldiers could hide in the alcoves to each side of the room. One of the archways is crumbling, and the bad guys plan to break the archway and bring it toppling down upon the players when they return this way. Describe the crumbling archway to the players, describe the hidden alcoves and the width of each pillar. They will see how an ambush *could* be executed, but fortunately for them, no enemy seems to be here...

As the party returns, and the ambush begins, the players have a chance to remember what they saw before, and avoid having an archway crash down upon them. They might also have considered countermeasures for the hidden archers, and will know that soldiers will be emerging from the alcoves.

Or not. In which case, at least you had the fun of describing the room in the first place, and now your level of detail pays off as you mangle the party something fierce. :smallbiggrin:

(And yes, sometimes the party will recognize that this would make a good ambush room -- and will prompty set up an ambush for any possible enemy which pursues them! Trust me... it will make for great fun to watch the *players* bring the archway down on the bad guys!!!)

*~*

Sometimes, that future planning is for more intermediate periods. Say... the players are exploring the dungeon, you describe the great hall, blah, blah, blah. Nothing happens in the room, nothing happens when you leave the room. Just a room with description, that's all it is.

Six months later, BBEG enters hallway, claims it as his own, sets up operations and forms his shadow goverment over the many countries he has overthrown.

Sometime after that, the party finally tracks down the BBEG's lair, only to find out it's located in the old dungeon they had cleared out long ago. Party reenters the Great Hall of the Old Kings, to find the BBEG's throne set right in the middle of it. Big fight ensues, with the players enjoying the feel of history coming full circle.

And if they players bring the archway down on the BBEG's head... all the better!

*~*

And sometimes... your plans for the future are a lot longer than that!

Party enters dungeon. You describe great hall, blah, blah, weakened archways, blah, blah, blah. No ambush, archways don't come tumbling down, BBEG doesn't set up shop, nothing. Campaign ends in an entirely different location, having never set foot in the Great Hall of the Old Kings ever again. (Or maybe all of the above happens. Maybe you wanted to reuse this room as many times as possible. Either way, the campaign ends with the hallway in whatever shape the party left it in.)

A thousand years pass...

A new evil has arisen to threaten the land. And with it, a new set of heroes, who coincidentally, are played by the same players, assuming they haven't all gone off to college or something. A new plot, a new story, heck, maybe even a new game system. Advanced technology. In a thousand years, they've all gone from swords and sorcery to laser cannons and lightsabers. I don't know how it happened, but it gives you a good excuse to play the Star Wars RPG for a change of pace...

And then, the party finds itself following clues to the whereabouts of the Sith Lord in an ancient ruins of some long-forgotten empire of old. A Great Hall, with towering stone archways, and hidden alcoves...

Kudos to the players who recognize their old stomping grounds. Kudos to the DM who actually puts clues in from the old campaign, relevant to the new campaign. Maybe things the players did a thousand years ago become important in this new era. And maybe renovations and modifications have occured. Those hidden alcoves now expand out into entire new areas. Those archways support the shipyards above you. The hallway is just large enough to fly a Tie-Fighter down the middle... you *did* plan for that when you designed this great hallway for current D&D campaign, didn't you?

And of course, that old unexplained air shute at the end of the hallway, the one the players puzzled over for hours the first time they went through? Well that's the exhaust port they can fire a torpedo down, to destroy the entire base. After all, every invincible base must have a weak point that can blow it all to pieces in one easy shot. :smalltongue:

Word of Warning to the players, though: When you laser-blast those stone archways to cause them to collapse upon the BBEG, just remember they WILL use their Sith powers of the Force to grab those archways and toss them back at you.

I learned that one the hard way.... :smallfrown:

Warlawk
2011-06-03, 12:16 PM
I agree with all the comments about thinking up the history of the room, what it was designed for, what it was used for, what occured within it. Very good advice, it will add detail to your inner-eye vision of the room, which you can then draw upon when describing it to your players.

I just wanted to expand on this point. The OP seems to really like challenging his players. You think of each encounter as a challenge and want to move on to the next challenge. You just need to change your way of thinking. Each room *is* a challenge. In most places the room is not labelled, there is no plaque next to the door that says [Mess Hall]. The challenge is to get the players to figure out what the room was/is simply by description alone.

Expanding further on that point. Every 'dungeon' served a purpose. That building was something, something that had a specific purpose and use. It may have been a temple, a church, a cult headquarters or a border keep. The point was it served a purpose and it needs to show that. It is a pet peeve of mine to see something like a Nobles Mansion that has a deadly trap every 30 feet. This guy had servants, he had family, he had friends. You don't design a living space filled with deadly traps or it isn't a living space for very long. The point is, think about the purpose of the building and the rooms within it. Create a real place instead of a cheesy caricature and it should be a lot easier to give engaging descriptions.

Anxe
2011-06-03, 12:35 PM
This is one of the reasons we have the DMG! Check out pages 57-77.