Haley's Afterlife

[Cisturn]

I'm not sure is this was brought up before, I checked the archives but didn't find anything.

Now I know that it was solely meant as a cover up, but Haley did technically convert to the Religion of Thor. If she were to die, do you think she would end up in Valhalla or wherever Thor's followers go to rest? Or would she end up in some other afterlife?

[ORione]

Isn't Vallhalla Chaotic Good? If so, it seems reasonably likely.

Although I'm hoping Oots won't cover Haley's afterlife, since she'd have to be dead.

[zimmerwald1915]

From Roy's interview with the Deva we know that afterlife is not determined by piety, but by alignment (the afterlife for goblinoids and dwarves seems to work a little differently, though, if Jirix and Durkon are to be believed). Haley, if she is to be believed about her alignment, is either Chaotic Good or Chaotic Neutral. Depending on the evaluation of whoever processes her soul, she could go to an afterlife corresponding to one of those two alignments.

[Dr.Epic]

Isn't Vallhalla Chaotic Good? If so, it seems reasonably likely.

She'd have to die in battle or else she goes to Hel.

[Cisturn]

Isn't Vallhalla Chaotic Good? If so, it seems reasonably likely.

Although I'm hoping Oots won't cover Haley's afterlife, since she'd have to be dead.

I think Rich said that Thor was the Neutral Good god, that may affect where Valhalla is in the OotS cosmology. But I agree, I'm hoping not to see her die either.

[veti]

I don't believe we can answer this question, without making a whole lot of assumptions.

Among the things you'd have to guess at:

what afterlives are available? Everyone thinks they know the answer to this, but it's not a rules question, it's a campaign setting question.
who makes the decisions? If every outer plane has some sort of entrance exam, what happens if you fail them all?
is there any connection between religion and afterlife? Does Haley worship any god at all? What happens to people who don't?
whoever it is that makes the decision - what weight would they attach to Haley's "conversion"?

We can guess about all these things, but we should at least be aware - that's a lot of assumptions.

[Flame of Anor]

Remember that the worshippers of the Southern gods were on a different side of the Lawful Good mountain. So perhaps there's a Chaotic Good area (for clarity, we're assuming Thor is CG) and Thor has one part of it...

[NerfTW]

I was under the impression the "going to hell unless you die in battle" only affected Dwarves. The rationale for this being that Roy is a follower of the Northern gods (including Thor) as well, and we see his mother and father in the Lawful Good afterlife, even though they died of old age.

(Those who are confused, remember there are only three pantheons, the North, the South, and the West, plus the Elves. Roy lives in the North.)

(And the Dark One)

Haley didn't really convert, she just started acting like Durkon was her mentor. She's always been a follower of Thor as part of the overall pantheon. (Well, unless Greysky is a city in the Southern lands, in which case, I'm completely wrong.)

[Flame of Anor]

I was under the impression the "going to hell unless you die in battle" only affected Dwarves. The rationale for this being that Roy is a follower of the Northern gods (including Thor) as well, and we see his mother and father in the Lawful Good afterlife, even though they died of old age.

(Those who are confused, remember there are only three pantheons, the North, the South, and the West, plus the Elves. Roy lives in the North.)

(And the Dark One)

Haley didn't really convert, she just started acting like Durkon was her mentor. She's always been a follower of Thor as part of the overall pantheon. (Well, unless Greysky is a city in the Southern lands, in which case, I'm completely wrong.)

Well, it's my impression she was non-religious until her conversion. Also, I think that her being a worshiper of Thor is going to Chekhov up somewhere when we least expect it.

[Gift Jeraff]

Also, I think that her being a worshiper of Thor is going to Chekhov up somewhere when we least expect it.I just had this idea as well. Durkon might not be alive when the OOTS visits Dwarven Lands, and if the dwarves in this universe are xenophobic, I imagine her status within the Church o' Thor will help out.

[Zevox]

I'm not sure is this was brought up before, I checked the archives but didn't find anything.

Now I know that it was solely meant as a cover up, but Haley did technically convert to the Religion of Thor. If she were to die, do you think she would end up in Valhalla or wherever Thor's followers go to rest? Or would she end up in some other afterlife?
Considering her conversion was definitely not genuine, I doubt it would affect her one way or the other. She won't be actively worshiping Thor throughout the rest of her life, so why would he take her?

Haley's most likely afterlife destination based on alignment at this point would probably be Ysgard, the chaotic and mildly good plane in between the purely chaotic good and chaotic neutral planes. Alternatively, the chaotic good plane Arborea or chaotic neutral plane Limbo.


what afterlives are available? Everyone thinks they know the answer to this, but it's not a rules question, it's a campaign setting question.
Given what we've seen of this (Roy's stint in the afterlife, Jirix's explanation of his brief time there, and Durkon's discussion of the Dwarven afterlife*) it seems to fit the default D&D model. The Planescape planes, each based on the alignments, are the default afterlife destinations, while religious characters go to the domain of the gods they worshiped.

*Also, while not directly revealing much about the afterlife, there's also the IFCC, which tells us that the Blood War exists in this setting and there are fiends representing all three different evil alignments that have some control over dead evil souls (see: the soul splice), again strongly indicating the presence of the default D&D/Planescape planes.


who makes the decisions? If every outer plane has some sort of entrance exam, what happens if you fail them all?
Er, that's impossible. We saw with Roy that the "entrance exam" exists solely to determine your alignment. Given every D&D character has to fall into one of the game's alignments and there is a plane for every alignment (and a plane for everyone bordering between two alignments for that matter), failing every plane's entrance exam would be an impossibility.


is there any connection between religion and afterlife?
Given Jirix's experience and Durkon's description of the Dwarven afterlife, plainly so, as mentioned before.


Does Haley worship any god at all?
Not that we've seen, and she was extremely casual about the whole fake conversion, so odds are good the answer is "no."


What happens to people who don't?
We saw that with Roy. They go to the plane fitting their alignment.

Zevox

[Flame of Anor]

Considering her conversion was definitely not genuine,

Not based on genuine religious contemplation, but who's to say she won't come to find it fulfilling?

[Souhiro]

I think that afterlife by alignment if for atheists, and they had to keep faithful to their Lwaful, Good, Chaotic or Evil tenets to avoid being casted in the True Neutral afterlife. Praying to a god can have hium (or her) placing you in his/her afterlife: I.E. a Lawful Good follower of Cayden Cailean could assure himself an afterlife of adventures, freedom, wine and women (altough he could distaste the "Wine" part) while the Pure Lawful Good afterlife can be more a "Wear a white roba, and hop from cloud to cloud an play a golden harp" afterlife


For the Haley Part, well, she could have converted... or she could just have bluffed. In any way, I think that Durkon (And Thor) can be very, VERY pissed.

I think Haley is Neutral or Chaotic Good. She has put her very life in the stake many times for her friends, helped and rallied the Lvl-1 guards of Azure City, fought for the resistance... so the Good Part is mostly assured, but she stole a lot of times (and from the order, no less!) and... GASP! she has an affair with a BARD! they aren't married yet!
To the nine pits of hell!
TO THE TEN ARMPITS OF HELL!

(Yeah, the last paragraphs are just kidding)


I think that unless she does something to gain more Durkon's and Thor's sympathy, she could have a little problem when she dies!

[Flame of Anor]

For the Haley Part, well, she could have converted... or she could just have bluffed. In any way, I think that Durkon (And Thor) can be very, VERY pissed.

I think Haley is Neutral or Chaotic Good. She has put her very life in the stake many times for her friends, helped and rallied the Lvl-1 guards of Azure City, fought for the resistance... so the Good Part is mostly assured, but she stole a lot of times (and from the order, no less!) and... GASP! she has an affair with a BARD! they aren't married yet!
To the nine pits of hell!
TO THE TEN ARMPITS OF HELL!

(Yeah, the last paragraphs are just kidding)


I think that unless she does something to gain more Durkon's and Thor's sympathy, she could have a little problem when she dies!

She specifically said she was "Chaotic Good-ish"

[Tass]

I was under the impression the "going to hell unless you die in battle" only affected Dwarves.

Not going to hell, going to Hel. There's a difference. (Mainly in temperature)


I think that afterlife by alignment if for atheists

I don't think there are many atheists in D&D or OotS, given that the existence of the gods is pretty much a fact. However there are non-pious people like, Roy.

[faustin]

But what about Haley´s black mark in her record, aka Crystal? A narrow-minded deva may send her to the True Neutral afterline only for that.

[Souhiro]

I don't think there are many atheists in D&D or OotS, given that the existence of the gods is pretty much a fact. However there are non-pious people like, Roy.

IRRC, Roy described the gods as "Just over-powerful outsiders". But yeah... the Non-Pious, or even agnostic, describes him best.

About Haley, she WILL have a lot of troubles! the is an apostate from Thor... and from BANJO! she will be condemned to wear lime green boots for all eternity.

[Tass]

IRRC, Roy described the gods as "Just over-powerful outsiders". But yeah... the Non-Pious, or even agnostic, describes him best.

I don't see how agnostic describes him at all.

[Kareasint]

But what about Haley´s black mark in her record, aka Crystal? A narrow-minded deva may send her to the True Neutral afterline only for that.

Given that Haley would be destined for a Chaotic realm of some sort in the afterlife, I would see the act of killing Crystal as Chaotic to begin with. Haley would also have a pretty strong argument for self-defense since Crystal tried to kill her on a number of occasions and was threatening to continue to do so.

Ruling as the Deva, I would place her in a Chaotic Good afterlife realm. Her piety is not really a question since she tends to help a lot of people. The thievery part from the rest of the OOTS was tied to a desire to acquire money to free her father. Keep in mind that there has been a number of thieves that could be considered in a good alignment. As for the Chaotic part, she does tend to do a lot of things on a whim (like faking a conversion to worship of Thor).

[martianmister]

Given what we've seen of this (Roy's stint in the afterlife, Jirix's explanation of his brief time there, and Durkon's discussion of the Dwarven afterlife*) it seems to fit the default D&D model. The Planescape planes, each based on the alignments, are the default afterlife destinations, while religious characters go to the domain of the gods they worshiped.

But according to Malack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) (and Durkon's agreement) religious or not all humans and lizardfolk going to the outer plane that matches their alignment.

[MoonCat]

Hey, since Julia is True Neutral, does that mean she wont be able to see her family once she dies?

[JSSheridan]

Hey, since Julia is True Neutral, does that mean she wont be able to see her family once she dies?

She's a wizard, she could always Plane Shift.

[KillianHawkeye]

I don't see how agnostic describes him at all.

I think it's time we all just admit that we don't have a succint word in real life that means "someone who knows the gods are real but doesn't believe they are truly divine/omnipotent/whatever."

Let's all stop trying to apply real terms where they don't belong!

[Burner28]

Hey, since Julia is True Neutral, does that mean she wont be able to see her family once she dies?

Well probably not.

[MoonCat]

Well probably not.

Well that sucks. :smallfrown::smalleek::smallfrown:

[Kish]

I think Rich said that Thor was the Neutral Good god,
No, that's Telephone Game.

[ORione]

Remember that the worshippers of the Southern gods were on a different side of the Lawful Good mountain. So perhaps there's a Chaotic Good area (for clarity, we're assuming Thor is CG) and Thor has one part of it...

I don't think Thor is Chaotic in Oots, because Durkon is his cleric, and Durkon is as Lawful as you can get without being Lawful Stupid.


I think it's time we all just admit that we don't have a succint word in real life that means "someone who knows the gods are real but doesn't believe they are truly divine/omnipotent/whatever."

Let's all stop trying to apply real terms where they don't belong!

I have a term for that, but...

TV Tropes link coming up. Don't like, don't read.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NayTheist

[Querzis]

Well mind you, it might work differently in the OOTS world but in real D&D, the answer is no. While all the gods have personal afterlives which are differents from the regular lawful good or chaotic evil afterlives, simply being the follower of a god doesnt mean you end up there. You have to be a priest or a cleric of a god to end up in their afterlife. Haley should just end up in the chaotic good afterlife.


I don't think Thor is Chaotic in Oots, because Durkon is his cleric, and Durkon is as Lawful as you can get without being Lawful Stupid.

So that just means Rich got rid of that stupid «you must be one step close to your god alignement to worship him» thing cause Thor is about as chaotic as you can possibly get everytime he appear in the strip (do you really see getting drunk and throwing lightning randomly as anything else then chaotic?) Mind you, I perfectly understand why a good cleric coudnt worship an evil god or why an evil cleric cant worship a good god. But Chaos and Order really shoudnt matter.

[Zevox]

Not based on genuine religious contemplation, but who's to say she won't come to find it fulfilling?
That would require her to actually act upon it as if she were a genuine convert. Don't know about you, but I don't see that happening.


But what about Haley´s black mark in her record, aka Crystal? A narrow-minded deva may send her to the True Neutral afterline only for that.
Chaotic Neutral, not True Neutral. Unlike Roy abandoning Elan, Haley killing Crystal isn't a violation of her alignment on the law-chaos scale, so it wouldn't move her on that scale.


But according to Malack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) (and Durkon's agreement) religious or not all humans and lizardfolk going to the outer plane that matches their alignment.
I hadn't recalled that note. Strange, as it doesn't match up with Jirix going directly to the Dark One's domain, if even faithful worshipers still get sent to an afterlife based on alignment.


Hey, since Julia is True Neutral, does that mean she wont be able to see her family once she dies?
Likely, unless the previous poster's guess that she could plane shift as she wishes is accurate*. That's an unfortunate side-effect of alignment-based afterlife sorting sometimes.

*I'm not sure how that works with dead souls - I think (but don't know for sure) in default D&D they lose their class levels and abilities, but that's obviously not the case here, but then again given that change there may be rules to prevent spellcaster souls from hopping off to whatever afterlife they please rather than the one they get.


I think it's time we all just admit that we don't have a succint word in real life that means "someone who knows the gods are real but doesn't believe they are truly divine/omnipotent/whatever."
Correction: not someone who doesn't believe they're divine/omnipotent/etc (them being divine would be part of that "knowing they're real" thing for most, and they aren't omnipotent and no one believes that since this is a polytheistic world), but someone who knows they're real but doesn't really care/doesn't bother worshiping them or following any of their teachings.

Zevox

[ORione]

I hadn't recalled that note. Strange, as it doesn't match up with Jirix going directly to the Dark One's domain, if even faithful worshipers still get sent to an afterlife based on alignment.

Maybe it's because he's a cleric.



Likely, unless the previous poster's guess that she could plane shift as she wishes is accurate*. That's an unfortunate side-effect of alignment-based afterlife sorting sometimes.

*I'm not sure how that works with dead souls - I think (but don't know for sure) in default D&D they lose their class levels and abilities, but that's obviously not the case here, but then again given that change there may be rules to prevent spellcaster souls from hopping off to whatever afterlife they please rather than the one they get.


Eugene could scry.

[Zevox]

Eugene could scry.
Yes, part of why I said it's obvious that dead souls don't lose their class levels here. Still doesn't tell us whether there's something preventing them from plane-hopping at will if they have access to that spell though.

Zevox

[Flame of Anor]

But what about Haley´s black mark in her record, aka Crystal? A narrow-minded deva may send her to the True Neutral afterline only for that.

I don't think so. It wasn't a particularly noble act to assassinate Crystal, but Crystal was a very evil person. Not everyone has to be a paladin.


IRRC, Roy described the gods as "Just over-powerful outsiders". But yeah... the Non-Pious, or even agnostic, describes him best.

Agnostic, from the Greek a + gnosis, means "not knowing". Roy clearly knows the gods exist, so he is not agnostic.


I think it's time we all just admit that we don't have a succint word in real life that means "someone who knows the gods are real but doesn't believe they are truly divine/omnipotent/whatever."

No one said Roy doesn't believe the gods are truly divine, he just doesn't really care about them.

[BlackestOfMages]

well, as stated, we have an afterlife for everyone, with some specific exceptions. so she'd likely end up in the human chaotic x afterlife - as it looked more like Durkon was describing the dwarf afterlife (mostly the beer reference, and the aforementioned part about Roy's family*)

*When you have geometrically devided religions, it's more of a takes responsability clause than a 'you need to worship X to enter', or else there'd be some rather screwed people there.


Er, that's impossible. We saw with Roy that the "entrance exam" exists solely to determine your alignment. Given every D&D character has to fall into one of the game's alignments and there is a plane for every alignment (and a plane for everyone bordering between two alignments for that matter), failing every plane's entrance exam would be an impossibility.

Challenge accepted.

[Herald Alberich]

I was under the impression the "going to hell unless you die in battle" only affected Dwarves. The rationale for this being that Roy is a follower of the Northern gods (including Thor) as well, and we see his mother and father in the Lawful Good afterlife, even though they died of old age.

That, and Durkon explicitly says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) those rules only apply to dwarves.


Haley didn't really convert, she just started acting like Durkon was her mentor. She's always been a follower of Thor as part of the overall pantheon. (Well, unless Greysky is a city in the Southern lands, in which case, I'm completely wrong.)

It's Northern, based on the presence of an influential and corrupt Church of Loki.


I have a term for that, but...

TV Tropes link coming up. Don't like, don't read.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NayTheist

I was surprised to see Roy not listed there. He is now.

[137beth]

IIRC in Norse mythology Valhalla seemed more like Lawful Good. But that is not a clear indication of what it would be in OOTS.

Haley will go to whatever afterlife awaits chaotic good...

[martianmister]

I hadn't recalled that note. Strange, as it doesn't match up with Jirix going directly to the Dark One's domain, if even faithful worshipers still get sent to an afterlife based on alignment.

Maybe his alignment is matches with the Dark One's. Or Goblins had different rules, like Dwarves.

[Gift Jeraff]

So that just means Rich got rid of that stupid «you must be one step close to your god alignement to worship him» thing cause Thor is about as chaotic as you can possibly get everytime he appear in the strip (do you really see getting drunk and throwing lightning randomly as anything else then chaotic?) Mind you, I perfectly understand why a good cleric coudnt worship an evil god or why an evil cleric cant worship a good god. But Chaos and Order really shoudnt matter.I always figured the Giant didn't abolish the one-step rule, just that certain gods don't require it for certain races (at least in regards to the Law-Chaos axis). i.e. Thor and dwarves, the Dark One and goblinoids, Tiamat and draconic races (Heck, aren't most chromatic dragons Chaotic?) Lolth and drow (if she exists in the OOTSiverse), etc.

[Kish]

(Heck, aren't most chromatic dragons Chaotic?)
Red, black, and white dragons are Chaotic Evil by racial alignment tendency.

Blue and green dragons are Lawful Evil, by racial alignment tendency.

[veti]

We saw with Roy that the "entrance exam" exists solely to determine your alignment. Given every D&D character has to fall into one of the game's alignments and there is a plane for every alignment (and a plane for everyone bordering between two alignments for that matter), failing every plane's entrance exam would be an impossibility.

With respect...

First, it's not just about testing alignment. If it were, then the deva could have done it with a couple of spells - no need for a whole drawn-out interview process. I would guess that the alignment determines which afterlife you get directed to first - so that's why Roy turned up there rather than, say, Limbo - but that plane still reserves the right not to let you in.

Secondly, Roy's exam was administered by the authorities controlling entrance to the LG afterlife. The deva threatens to boot him to "true neutral", but presumably TN has its own entrance authorities. What right does the deva have to dictate to them who they must let in?

(It's like immigration, yeah? The Australian immigration authorities can stop you from entering Australia, but they can't just arbitrarily grant you entrance to, say, Canada instead. You have to apply separately for that.)

And thirdly: if everyone falls into precisely one of the nine alignments, and that alone determines their afterlife... then how could there be "extra" planes for "borderline" cases? If all LG characters go to Celestia - then how does anyone end up in Arcadia?



is there any connection between religion and afterlife?Given Jirix's experience and Durkon's description of the Dwarven afterlife, plainly so, as mentioned before.

How is this compatible with the idea that afterlife is determined solely by alignment?

Jirix and Durkon are both clerics. The rules may be different for them.

[Zevox]

With respect...

First, it's not just about testing alignment.
Yes, it is. The Deva told us that herself.

Comic 490 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html), panel 9:
Deva: "There are two different sets of criteria I need to consider before assigning you an afterlife. Are you Good, and are you Lawful? Luckily for you, your lack of piety isn't an issue: only your alignment is brought into question."


Secondly, Roy's exam was administered by the authorities controlling entrance to the LG afterlife. The deva threatens to boot him to "true neutral", but presumably TN has its own entrance authorities. What right does the deva have to dictate to them who they must let in?
If the Deva does her job properly and correctly determines the person's alignment, then the authorities on the plane she sends them to (if it isn't her own) will easily also determine that person to be of that alignment and thus admit them.


And thirdly: if everyone falls into precisely one of the nine alignments, and that alone determines their afterlife... then how could there be "extra" planes for "borderline" cases? If all LG characters go to Celestia - then how does anyone end up in Arcadia?
Because the alignments are broad categories, not highly specific ones. A character that is lawful good but only mildly good would end up in Arcadia. This doesn't mean he isn't lawful good, just that he wasn't "good" enough to enter Celestia.

Zevox