Foreshadowing

[hoff]

I opened this thread so people can post and comment about all foreshadowing that has not yet come to pass.
One very interesting that I found was in these two comics:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html

Xykon asked Tsukiko to study a ritual, but Tsukiko couldn't figure it out because half the ritual is missing. On the second strip she finds out that the ritual is half-arcane and half-divine, with the half-divine missing.
Which spell we know that is both half-divine and half-arcane? The one that controls the gates that is, this probably means that Xykon plans to replace Redcloak soonish. Considering that Tsukiko seems to be 100% loyal to Xykon this is a very smart move. This also makes me think that Xykon relation to Tsukiko is going to develop into something similar to Harley Quinn and the Joker from Batman. The Joker only uses and manipulates Harley because of her unconditional love for him.

Another one is this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html), Tarquin mentions in obvious foreshadowing that the fate of the Empire will be in Elan's hand. We don't know why yet or if he was just joking for dramatic tension.

Also the oracle is out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) which makes me believe that he will be vital to the history again sometime in the future.

[Thanatosia]

The oracle was out just to avoid Xykon IMO.

[hoff]

Dunno, he could just be raised again (unless xykon soulbind his soul). I still think that the oracle is in the western continent somewhere.

[ORione]

I think you should put the part about Xykon and Tsukiko in spoilers, for people who haven't read Start of Darkness.

Tsukiko said that the missing half was divine, which means the part Xykon was having her study was arcane. So, Xykon's trying to replace... himself?

Seems more likely to me that Xykon just wants to know exactly what he's getting himself into.

Although replacing Redcloak with Tsukiko wouldn't be a bad move on his part.

[silversaraph]

I just noticed A very special diet. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html) I can imagine Durkon stumbling on on him eating dwarves or babies or something.

[Snails]

I just noticed A very special diet. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html) I can imagine Durkon stumbling on on him eating dwarves or babies or something.


(1) Weird eyes.
(2) Priest of Death
(3) Unusual diet
(4) Considering having another "offspring" with a "special bond"
(5) Belkar will very soon breathes his last.

All fit together.

He is a vampire.

His apparent albino appearance masks that he has glowing undead eyes (and why he might have delicate skin that avoids sunlight as well). As a priest of his particular god of Death, it makes perfect sense for him to be undead.

The strange allusions to his diet and having a "special bond" with his offspring seal the deal. As written they both are ambiguous conversations, but a very careful kind of ambiguous that promises a reveal while being a perfect fit for vampiricy.

And he will surely convert Belkar in undead, thereby assuring that the prophecy about breathing his last is accurate.

100% certain.

[MoonCat]

(1) Weird eyes.
(2) Priest of Death
(3) Unusual diet
(4) Considering having another "offspring" with a "special bond"
(5) Belkar will very soon breathes his last.

All fit together.

He is a vampire.

His albino appearance masks that he has weird undead eyes. As a priest of his particular god of Death, it makes perfect sense for him to be undead.

The strange allusions to his diet and having a "special bond" with his "children" seal the deal. As written they both are ambiguous conversations, but a very careful kind of ambiguous that absolutely fits vampiricy. Perfectly.

And he will surely convert Belkar in undead, thereby assuring that the prophecy about breathing his last is accurate.

100% certain.


How are his eye undead eyes? They're pink, like an albino's. Also, it was generally thought that he wouldn't resurrect people (even his children) because of his respect for death. Being undead wouldn't really work with that, would it? Even if he is a vampire, that in no way fits in with the prophecy, the one that says "Belkar is not long for this world"

[Snails]

How are his eye undead eyes? They're pink, like an albino's. Also, it was generally thought that he wouldn't resurrect people (even his children) because of his respect for death. Being undead wouldn't really work with that, would it? Even if he is a vampire, that in no way fits in with the prophecy, the one that says "Belkar is not long for this world"

We agree that in a presumably poorly lit dungeon many/most undead will be depicted with glowing eyes. But in a well lit palace? Hard to say.

Furthermore, vampires as a species are expected to be able to blend in, such that the PCs and the audience are not immediately tipped off. The glowing eyes is something a vamp might only turn on, when choosing to intimidate or Charm.

My recollection is that Belkar "will breathe his last" ever. Literally. Undeath would accomplish that precisely.

As for it seeming disrespectful of Death to be undead, I personally agree with you. But the various writers of D&D material (sourcebooks, novels, adventure modules, etc.) as a group disagree with the two of us in spades. We are the minority opinion on this one.

[MoonCat]

We agree that in a presumably poorly lit dungeon many/most undead will be drawn with glowing eyes. But in a well lit palace? Hard to say.

My recollection is that Belkar "will breathe his last" ever. Literally. Undeath would accomplish that precisely.

As for it seeming disrespectful of Death to be undead, I personally agree with you. But the various writers of D&D material (sourcebooks, novels, etc.) as a group disagree with the two of us in spades.

Hmm. Could you give me an example of and undead with glowing eyes? (eyes, not skull lights:smallsmile:) I don't recall any.

And since the Oracle has mentioned Belkar's demise on several occasions, he has had a lot of opportunities to say it in different manners. Once was with breath, once was with cake, and once was the one I mentioned. I personally think the Oracle is going to subvert the expectation that everyone has of him by now, and told the prophecy straight, with everyone expecting it to have been obscured with fancy word play.

And I didn't know that about the DnD writers. Thanks.

Another question is; Does Belkar actually have a good reason to become an undead? That's a pretty important angle if you think about it, especially considering that may put backwards his whole "look reformed" attempt.

[hoff]

I think you should put the part about Xykon and Tsukiko in spoilers, for people who haven't read Start of Darkness.

Tsukiko said that the missing half was divine, which means the part Xykon was having her study was arcane. So, Xykon's trying to replace... himself?

Seems more likely to me that Xykon just wants to know exactly what he's getting himself into.

Although replacing Redcloak with Tsukiko wouldn't be a bad move on his part.

The divine part was missing because Redcloak never gave it to Xykon (which makes sense), he probably just assumed that the ritual was all there in the part he got. It is quite possible that the full ritual can only be unlocked by the redcloak (the item, not the character).

[Roland Itiative]

Tsukiko said that the missing half was divine, which means the part Xykon was having her study was arcane. So, Xykon's trying to replace... himself?

Redcloak probably just gave him the arcane part of the ritual to begin with. What I get from him giving it to Tsukiko is that he wants her to "reverse engineer" the divine part out of it, or something. Then she can replace Redcloak.

[Snails]

I personally think the Oracle is going to subvert the expectation that everyone has of him by now, and told the prophecy straight, with everyone expecting it to have been obscured with fancy word play.

Well, under my explanation the Oracle is being perfectly literal, in a manner that would lead both the PCs and most of the audience in a certain direction that will be only half correct, while creating a host of interesting & unforeseen implications and causing ever greater consternation amongst our heroes.

That fits Rich's style.

And that fits with how the best prophecies are written, really.

As for Belkar's preferences, he may or may not get much choice. We shall see.

[MoonCat]

Well, under my explanation the Oracle is being perfectly literal, in a manner that would lead both the PCs and most of the audience in a certain direction that will be only half correct, while creating a host of interesting & unforeseen implications and causing ever greater consternation amongst our heroes.

That fits Rich's style.

And that fits with how the best prophecies are written, really.

I rather meant that while, after all the times the Oracle's given a prophecy like what you just described, everyone expects there to be a twist (like him being undead), only instead it just happens exactly like the Oracle says, subverting everyone's expectation that it'll work out in some weird way like all the others.

[Leecros]

(1) Weird eyes.
(2) Priest of Death
(3) Unusual diet
(4) Considering having another "offspring" with a "special bond"
(5) Belkar will very soon breathes his last.

All fit together.

He is a vampire.

His apparent albino appearance masks that he has glowing undead eyes (and why he might have delicate skin that avoids sunlight as well). As a priest of his particular god of Death, it makes perfect sense for him to be undead.

The strange allusions to his diet and having a "special bond" with his offspring seal the deal. As written they both are ambiguous conversations, but a very careful kind of ambiguous that promises a reveal while being a perfect fit for vampiricy.

And he will surely convert Belkar in undead, thereby assuring that the prophecy about breathing his last is accurate.

100% certain.


He's a vampire....that's why we see him sitting out on the balcony with Durkon in the daytime without any negative effects in this comic, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html right?

[GSFB]

he's a vampire... who is chummy with a strange lawful good high-level cleric who might be able to turn him and who, despite being high level with many ranks in things like religion, is completely oblivious to his lack of respiration? also, the "special bond" is clearly in relation to birth vs adoption. if was just out to sire a vampire spawn, he could bite any child, adopted or not.

[ArcaneSaint]

He's a vampire....that's why we see him sitting out on the balcony with Durkon in the daytime without any negative effects in this comic, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html right?
Perhaps he applied some sunblock? Don't forget, only a part of his head is sticking out, for all we know the robes that cover the rest of his body are enchanted to protect him against the negative effects of the sun. Like how female armor still manages to protect the whole body, despite, you know, only covering the least possible amount of body. He also hasn't shown up at the Arena, so maybe the protective spell rests on the palace instead (fueled by the blood of the innocent, of course).

Malack as a vampire would actually fit quite well, it would also explain why he couldn't resurrect his children, because doing so would return them back to their normal not-undead self, and if they had been turned to ashes and then dispersed with, say, Gust of wind like V did with that noble, it would be quite hard to find these ashes in the desert. Also note how he doesn't cast a shadow! Which is also a typical vampire trait according to this description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm).

Why is this whole conversation in spoilers anyway?



he's a vampire... who is chummy with a strange lawful good high-level cleric who might be able to turn him and who, despite being high level with many ranks in things like religion, is completely oblivious to his lack of respiration? also, the "special bond" is clearly in relation to birth vs adoption. if was just out to sire a vampire spawn, he could bite any child, adopted or not.
Vampires are supposed to be quite good at deception. And don't remember Tarquin (who appears to be the party leader) is Lawful Evil, and wouldn't abide Malack (or anyone else) turning random children into vampires, as this would weaken the strength of the empire and possibly incite rebellion, or attract vampire hunters.

Also, Durkon doesn't have many ranks in religion (couldn't even tell a worshiper of Loki might be a bad sign), he admitted that himself: see this comic, last panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html)

[JustIgnoreMe]

Also note how he doesn't cast a shadow!
Oh my god, he's right! Proof Malack is a vampire!

... wait a minute... Check this out. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0229.html) Nobody casts a shadow in OotS... which means...

THEY'RE ALL VAMPIRES! THE ENTIRE CAST AND EVERYONE THEY EVER MET! Oh, except for the two guys here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0242.html). But everyone else is totally a vampire. Ignore the whole "walking around in daylight and not drinking blood" thing, vampires are good at deception...

[King of Nowhere]

Perhaps he applied some sunblock? Don't forget, only a part of his head is sticking out, for all we know the robes that cover the rest of his body are enchanted to protect him against the negative effects of the sun. Like how female armor still manages to protect the whole body, despite, you know, only covering the least possible amount of body. He also hasn't shown up at the Arena, so maybe the protective spell rests on the palace instead (fueled by the blood of the innocent, of course).

Malack as a vampire would actually fit quite well, it would also explain why he couldn't resurrect his children, because doing so would return them back to their normal not-undead self, and if they had been turned to ashes and then dispersed with, say, Gust of wind like V did with that noble, it would be quite hard to find these ashes in the desert. Also note how he doesn't cast a shadow! Which is also a typical vampire trait according to this description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm).

Why is this whole conversation in spoilers anyway?



Vampires are supposed to be quite good at deception. And don't remember Tarquin (who appears to be the party leader) is Lawful Evil, and wouldn't abide Malack (or anyone else) turning random children into vampires, as this would weaken the strength of the empire and possibly incite rebellion, or attract vampire hunters.

Also, Durkon doesn't have many ranks in religion (couldn't even tell a worshiper of Loki might be a bad sign), he admitted that himself: see this comic, last panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html)
Well, first, if we assume that he's a vampire with a magical sunblock, then EVERYONE can be a vampire. Nowhere it is stated that vampires must be pale, and depending on the setting they may very well be able to eat normal food, or at least fake it.
But, hey, evenn if vampires HAD to be pale, Roy could just be a vampire with a heavy makeup.
So, by that reasoning, everyone is a vampire.

For thge resurrection part, if the bodies were destroied, malack wouldn't be able to resurrect because he don't have access to true resurrection, and i don't see what that has to do with vampires.

For "Tarquin wouldn't let him turn people", Tarquin is putting random peoiple in the gladiatorial games (and probably in slavery). If you thyink he would have some problems with some of them "disappearing", then I have a bridge to terbithia to sell you.

[ArcaneSaint]

For "Tarquin wouldn't let him turn people", Tarquin is putting random peoiple in the gladiatorial games (and probably in slavery).
Not true, they are all put into the arena/jail/slave pits for breaking the law (no matter how stupid or small the offense might be). You don't have your papers: you go to jail. You pee on the pavement: you go to jail. You obey the oppressive, fascist regime: you can walk the streets as a free, oppressed man*.


For thge resurrection part, if the bodies were destroied, malack wouldn't be able to resurrect because he don't have access to true resurrection, and i don't see what that has to do with vampires.
Don't vampires usually turn to ashes when they die? I might have been mistaken though.
EDIT: Ah yes, I had forgotten about true resurrection. Though this requires the soul to willingly return, and I don't think you'll want to return if you know you'll be turned into a vampire again.


Well, first, if we assume that he's a vampire with a magical sunblock, then EVERYONE can be a vampire. Nowhere it is stated that vampires must be pale, and depending on the setting they may very well be able to eat normal food, or at least fake it.
Malack has already stated that he requires a "special diet", we have already seen the other members of OOTS (and plenty of NPCs) consume normal*** food. He also refused to eat in public because of this special diet which he needed to follow due to his "frail health" (I know stories about vampires who get weaker when they don't drink blood, or who get stronger but more susceptible to sunlight).


If you thyink he would have some problems with some of them "disappearing", then I have a bridge to terbithia to sell you.
Ooh, how exciting, I've never bought a bridge before! Does it say "gullible" on the supports? I hope so, that will fit so nice with my ceiling :smallbiggrin:


*or woman**
**or ambiguous elf
***ok, Belkar's tastes can be described as...disturbing

[G-Man Graves]

(1) Weird eyes.
(2) Priest of Death
(3) Unusual diet
(4) Considering having another "offspring" with a "special bond"
(5) Belkar will very soon breathes his last.

All fit together.

He is a vampire.

His apparent albino appearance masks that he has glowing undead eyes (and why he might have delicate skin that avoids sunlight as well). As a priest of his particular god of Death, it makes perfect sense for him to be undead.

The strange allusions to his diet and having a "special bond" with his offspring seal the deal. As written they both are ambiguous conversations, but a very careful kind of ambiguous that promises a reveal while being a perfect fit for vampiricy.

And he will surely convert Belkar in undead, thereby assuring that the prophecy about breathing his last is accurate.

100% certain.


I... you... He...

No. That's wrong. And you should feel wrong. Because you are wrong. We see him walking around in broad daylight, and to be a vampire would be to disrespect his deity.

[TriForce]

its impossible for malack to be a vampire... i mean sunblock? really? youve watched blade a few too many times i think. sunlight utterly destroys a vampire, sunblock or not, the fact that they are in the middle of the freaking desert wont help him either.

also, vampires are not exeptionally pale, they just look like normal people with somewhat sharper features.

also, in the comic where he talks about his children he specifically mentions getting together with someone to make them, something a vampire doesnt need to do.

his special diet might very well be something related to his type/speces/template whatever, but its not vampire

[hoff]

Jeez, this thread derailed to another malack is undead thread

[Leecros]

(I know stories about vampires who get weaker when they don't drink blood, or who get stronger but more susceptible to sunlight).
I know a story that has Vampires that get all sparkly in the daylight...
yes, i went THERE.

[ArcaneSaint]

its impossible for malack to be a vampire... i mean sunblock? really? youve watched blade a few too many times i think. sunlight utterly destroys a vampire, sunblock or not, the fact that they are in the middle of the freaking desert wont help him either.

also, in the comic where he talks about his children he specifically mentions getting together with someone to make them, something a vampire doesnt need to do.

his special diet might very well be something related to his type/speces/template whatever, but its not vampire
1) I've never, ever, watched Blade. I just reasoned that sunblock or some ancient, evil, dark, powerful magic with a similar effect could protect him. I mean, they have magic treatments that will grow your hair to 20 times it length in a few minutes, why not one that blocks all sunlight 2 millimeter before it reaches your skin? He'd only need to apply it to his face anyway, since the rest of his body is already covered with robes.
2)A vampire must bond with someone to make another vampire, that person is often called "the victim'"
3) True. Although Malack did say that ordinary Lizardfolk food was no good for him.


I know a story that has Vampires that get all sparkly in the daylight...
Sorry, I used the wrong wording, with "stories" I meant myths/legends-kind of stories, you know, the mythological stuff that people sometimes claim has hidden meanings. I remember a few where Vampires required to drink blood or else they got weaker. So that'd explain Malack would need a "special diet"for his "frail health": not drinking blood means he gets weaker.
But yours sounds nice too :smallsmile:


Jeez, this thread derailed to another malack is undead thread
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm89/jdw2150/derail2.jpgoops :smalleek:

[Leecros]

Sorry, I used the wrong wording, with "stories" I meant myths/legends-kind of stories, you know, the mythological stuff that people sometimes claim has hidden meanings. I remember a few where Vampires required to drink blood or else they got weaker. So that'd explain Malack would need a "special diet"for his "frail health": not drinking blood means he gets weaker.
But yours sounds nice too :smallsmile:

In Core D&D Vampires don't actually need blood

In Libris Mortis it seems to be more of a psychological dependency than a physical one. They can't die from it, but they can get....well, quite mad.


1) I've never, ever, watched Blade. I just reasoned that sunblock or some ancient, evil, dark, powerful magic with a similar effect could protect him. I mean, they have magic treatments that will grow your hair to 20 times it length in a few minutes, why not one that blocks all sunlight 2 millimeter before it reaches your skin? He'd only need to apply it to his face anyway, since the rest of his body is already covered with robes.
I could also reason that the only way The Order will defeat Xykon is if a giant meteor from space will crush him and Redcloak. It's an entirely plausible event. And has happened in more than one D&D campaign that I've been in, but it doesn't actually have any real basis outside of me wanting to see a meteor crush Xykon and Redcloak.

[Snails]

Of course, I could be wrong. But the vampire hypothesis has the allure of answering multiple very purposefully and tantalizing vague issues in one fell swoop.

We do not really know that Malack is in direct sunlight on the rooftop. He could be standing in the shadow of Her Royal Largeness for all we know. I point out that such things are rarely absolutes in D&D -- a barrier to a CR 6 NPC is merely an annoyance that requires an expenditure of resources to a CR 12 NPC. Also vampires can briefly walk through direct sunlight in D&D -- it just disorients them and destroys only if prolonged.

Could be a coincidence, but I just noticed that Malack indicates he has very carefully considered the implications of the trim length of his heavy dark cloak, while chatting with Durken and V. A small bit of further circumstantial evidence in my favor.

Clearly, the odd discussion about children fits vampirism perfectly, as well as more mundane routes.

The claim about a special diet and frailty also fits vampirism perfectly, and lacks any other plausible explanation. By implication, he is hiding something from Durkon, who has be completely fooled by Malack's helpful Lawfulness. As he tossed down a Blade Barrier, he is likely a level ~12 Cleric. How low a Con could he plausibly have? Well, exactly ZERO if he is undead.

[Leecros]

Of course, I could be wrong. But the vampire hypothesis has the allure of answering multiple very purposefully and tantalizing vague issues in one fell swoop.
it has the allure of answering questions because it's what you want it to.


We do not really know that Malack is in direct sunlight on the rooftop. He could be standing in the shadow of Her Royal Largeness for all we know. I point out that such things are rarely absolutes in D&D -- a barrier to a CR 6 NPC is merely an annoyance that requires an expenditure of resources to a CR 12 NPC. Also vampires can briefly walk through direct sunlight in D&D -- it just disorients them and destroys only if prolonged.
and you cannot prove that he isn't in direct sunlight. You are just assuming that he could be because it fits your hypothesis. We have zero proof of that.

Vampires can walk through direct sunlight for what? 1 round (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Vampire#Vampire_Weaknesses)? It's destroyed the next round.


The claim about a special diet and frailty also fits vampirism perfectly, and lacks any other plausible explanation.

Have you considered the fact that he has an....i don't know special diet and is frail? Why over-complicate it? That's even much more plausible than jumping to the conclusion that he's a vampire.

[treyh37]

this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0732.html) strip mentions the currently plotline will last 20-30 strips which we are well past, unless your count only the strips durkon has been in which is 13-14 from that strip, and he has been absent in quite a few strips with some excuse given for why hes not there. i assume about half of the remaining strips will be used in his fight against his LG counterpart and the rest wrapping up the plotline

[ArcaneSaint]

I could also reason that the only way The Order will defeat Xykon is if a giant meteor from space will crush him and Redcloak. It's an entirely plausible event. And has happened in more than one D&D campaign that I've been in, but it doesn't actually have any real basis outside of me wanting to see a meteor crush Xykon and Redcloak.
Meteor Swarm:smallconfused:?

About the vampirism, as House would say: it fits the symptoms. Malack as a vampire would answer almost all questions about him: his special diet, his special bond with his children, his frail health, his not-eating-in-public, his appearance, his clothing style, why he couldn't resurrect his children. I'm not saying it's the only one that could possibly fit, but I haven't heard/read any others that fit all symptoms. There are theories that answer some questions, like "A priest of Death doesn't resurrect because his god wouldn't want him to". And a vampire is one of the things we haven't seen yet in OotS, so why not introduce a high-level intelligent non-chaotic undead as (yet another) new "antagonist"? Even if it's only during this story arc.
I say "antagonist" because while Tarquin&co. are Evil, they have no reason to stop the OotS, while the OotS might try to fight them eventually because of the whole "slavery" and maybe the "bloodthirsty undead monstrosity"

[Thanatosia]

About the vampirism, as House would say: it fits the symptoms.
No, it does not, as having tea out in broad daylight with a holy priest is hardly a symptom of vampirism. House would sooner assume it's Lupus.

[TriForce]

1) I've never, ever, watched Blade. I just reasoned that sunblock or some ancient, evil, dark, powerful magic with a similar effect could protect him. I mean, they have magic treatments that will grow your hair to 20 times it length in a few minutes, why not one that blocks all sunlight 2 millimeter before it reaches your skin? He'd only need to apply it to his face anyway, since the rest of his body is already covered with robes.
2)A vampire must bond with someone to make another vampire, that person is often called "the victim'"
3) True. Although Malack did say that ordinary Lizardfolk food was no good for him.


Sorry, I used the wrong wording, with "stories" I meant myths/legends-kind of stories, you know, the mythological stuff that people sometimes claim has hidden meanings. I remember a few where Vampires required to drink blood or else they got weaker. So that'd explain Malack would need a "special diet"for his "frail health": not drinking blood means he gets weaker.
But yours sounds nice too :smallsmile:



1: hes in the middle of a desert, and has been for some time, unless you have a strip in wich it is hinted he has some magical thingy that indeed does that (and to my knowledge it doesnt exist in dnd, anything that actually works like you propose would only result in a malack shaped blot of darkness, and anythng else isnt very likely either) thinking he is a vampire is just wishful thinking, this, if nothing else, is a HUGE piece of evidence he cant be one.
2: the way he talks about making children isnt "i need someone else and then make them my children" its "i need someone else and make children together" again, something a vampire doesnt do
4: vampires dont have "frail health" they are freaking strong, getting a bonus to every one of their stats, and even if they are deprived from blood for 100 years, they will still be as strong. they will be bat**** insane ofc, but still strong.


About the vampirism, as House would say: it fits the symptoms.

house would smack you upside the head with a cane and then fire you, since you are confusing a patient who has the common cold with one who has the plague becouse they both cough every now and then

[Jay R]

this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0732.html) strip mentions the currently plotline will last 20-30 strips which we are well past, unless your count only the strips durkon has been in which is 13-14 from that strip, and he has been absent in quite a few strips with some excuse given for why hes not there. i assume about half of the remaining strips will be used in his fight against his LG counterpart and the rest wrapping up the plotline

It doesn't state that it will run 20-30 strips, merely that Durkon expected it to. This fact might lead to Durkon having legal trouble because his papers are out of date, or it might merely mean that it was a one-time joke.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Another one is this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html), Tarquin mentions in obvious foreshadowing that the fate of the Empire will be in Elan's hand. We don't know why yet or if he was just joking for dramatic tension.

I personally think the quickly developing Elan v. Nale counts. I mean its pretty obvious Nale is trying to take over/destroy the Empire of Blood.

[Ash_Gazn]

The divine part was missing because Redcloak never gave it to Xykon (which makes sense), he probably just assumed that the ritual was all there in the part he got. It is quite possible that the full ritual can only be unlocked by the redcloak (the item, not the character).


If the ritual can only be operated by the person with the Redcloak, then it'd be quite likely that Tsukiko is out of luck, as the Dark One wouldn't allow the cloak to work for her, or she'd take a couple negative levels. Though that's not something Xykon would think of, so it's plausible that he's setting her up to take over for Redcloak (the goblin).

More likely, he's just trying to understand the ritual, because he doesn't trust Redcloak to have told him the whole truth about it.

[Leecros]

About the vampirism, as House would say: it fits the symptoms. Malack as a vampire would answer almost all questions about him: his special diet, his special bond with his children, his frail health, his not-eating-in-public, his appearance, his clothing style, why he couldn't resurrect his children. I'm not saying it's the only one that could possibly fit, but I haven't heard/read any others that fit all symptoms. There are theories that answer some questions, like "A priest of Death doesn't resurrect because his god wouldn't want him to". And a vampire is one of the things we haven't seen yet in OotS, so why not introduce a high-level intelligent non-chaotic undead as (yet another) new "antagonist"? Even if it's only during this story arc.
I say "antagonist" because while Tarquin&co. are Evil, they have no reason to stop the OotS, while the OotS might try to fight them eventually because of the whole "slavery" and maybe the "bloodthirsty undead monstrosity"

I recall an Episode of House there...whichever season he was running a contest for his new team. Where one of the doctors thought the patient had polio. He thought she had polio because that's what he wanted her to have.

I also another episode of House where he treats a doctor who goes to third-world countries to treat Tuberculosis. The doctor gets sick. He assumes and is utterly convinced that his illness is TB because that's the life-threatening illness that he wanted so he could pull a martyr stunt.

Bottom Line: The only reason you see Vampire Malack is because you want him to be a vampire.



as House would say: it fits the symptoms. Malack as a vampire would answer almost all questions about him
Only, that's not what he would say, the fact that it only answers almost all of the question(and it doesn't even do that by the way) and doesn't answer all of the questions means that House would more likely yell at you for the terrible idea and tell you to find something that fit all of the symptoms.



No, it does not, as having tea out in broad daylight with a holy priest is hardly a symptom of vampirism. House would sooner assume it's Lupus.

It's Never Lupus

...except that one time it was
Sorry, couldn't resist

[martianmister]

Empire of Blood is clearly belongs to evil alignment. I can't see why Malack would hide his vampirism in such a place like this.

[ArcaneSaint]

Empire of Blood is clearly belongs to evil alignment. I can't see why Malack would hide his vampirism in such a place like this.
Because the whole "conquer and empire" thing suddenly get a lot harder if people found out their high Priest was a vampire. Remember, Tarquin is all about stability, in a fascist, oppressive kind of way, sure. People would start panicking or worse, openly revolting against their oppressors. It's one thing to be oppressed by some dictator, but it's something entirely different to be oppressed by some blood-drinking, undead, deceiving, immortal monstrosity.

[Snails]

1: hes in the middle of a desert, and has been for some time, ...thinking he is a vampire is just wishful thinking, this, if nothing else, is a HUGE piece of evidence he cant be one.
I admit it would seem very inconvenient to be a vampire in a desert. But it is not a logical impossibility.

And it is not a logical impossibility to be on a rooftop during the daytime, if very careful. The OotSverse does not make the precise lighting conditions apparent to the reader. His albino appearance gives him an excuse to skirt direct sunlight and stay within shadows of structures. He is also allowed to spend a few moments in sunlight without negative consequence, as long as he does not dally for more than a few seconds.



2: the way he talks about making children isnt "i need someone else and then make them my children" its "i need someone else and make children together" again, something a vampire doesnt do
No. Both conventional family methods and vampirism fit those conversations more than adequately. Vampirism actually answers a couple minor points better (e.g. is it your god that holds you back from resurrecting your dead family...or something else?).

You are presuming a level of forthrightness that is simply absurd to expect among Tarquin's close acquaintances.

We already know that Tarquin is Lawful Evil, and prides himself on his ability to persuade while not speaking literal lies while perpetrating outrageous deceptions through omission. Malack shows many, many signs of being cut from the same cloth.

Malack is being "polite". He knows perfectly well that saying out loud he is thinking of giving the gift of undeath might provoke immediate violence from some quarters, like, say, a priest of Thor.

Being honest would be impolitic in other important ways, as well. When the dung hits the fan, as it inevitably will, the plan is to have Her Royal Largeness lose her head. Rumors that there is a vampire on the palace feeding on the populace would create another obvious target for reprisal. His feeding would be so easy to cover up right now because Tarquin creates so many corpses (while successfully casting the blame on the empress).


4: vampires dont have "frail health" they are freaking strong, getting a bonus to every one of their stats, and even if they are deprived from blood for 100 years, they will still be as strong. they will be bat**** insane ofc, but still strong.

Actually, vampires and other undead have a zero Con score. That a vampire only partakes of a "special diet" because of his zero Con score would not be a lie -- it is deception through omission of key explanatory facts.

In fact, this is exactly the kind of deception that we have come to expect from Tarquin. Why exactly do we expect scruples from a long time friend of Tarquin, such as Malack?

[Snails]

Empire of Blood is clearly belongs to evil alignment. I can't see why Malack would hide his vampirism in such a place like this.

The Empress and Tarquin would not mind, no. So in the very short term, it would not matter either way.

The key point of Tarquin's gambit is to set up the monarch(s) as the obvious target when the inevitable revolution comes. Allowing the populace to suspect there is an evil blood-sucking monster in the palace, helping to run the nation, would be a huge negative.

Malack is also being polite to Durkon. A priest of Thor might feel obliged to attack an evil vampire on sight. Malack would prefer to have some pleasant conversation with another spellcaster, rather than need to subdue his guest and put him in shackles.

[KillianHawkeye]

Actually, vampires and other undead have a zero Con score.

Con 0 is not the same as lacking a Con score altogether. If your Con is reduced to 0 you are dead. Undead creatures are not dead.



Also, there is a feat in Libris Mortis that would allow a vampire to pass sunlit areas for a longer time (but still measured in rounds, so not a whole lot more time).

[Leecros]

And it is not a logical impossibility to be on a rooftop during the daytime, if very careful. The OotSverse does not make the precise lighting conditions apparent to the reader. His albino appearance gives him an excuse to skirt direct sunlight and stay within shadows of structures. He is also allowed to spend a few moments in sunlight without negative consequence, as long as he does not dally for more than a few seconds.

Actually i'm fairly certain that if it was an integral part of the character, The Giant would put him in shadows. I find it highly unlikely he'd go "oh hey, remember this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html) and this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0764.html)? Yeah, he was in the shade...yup, you couldn't see it, but it's there."

On top of the fact that the architecture style of EoB isn't exactly shade-oriented...


You are presuming a level of forthrightness that is simply absurd to expect among Tarquin's close acquaintances.

You are presuming that every member of Tarqun's group is basically a carbon copy of Tarquin himself and that has never been true in any organization portrayed thus far in the story. They are their own characters, they're not clones.:smallsigh:

[hoff]

You know, if Malack IS a vampire I can see him transforming Belkar into one (last breath before the end of the year and all that).

[homersolo]

On the topic of foreshadowing, it might have been mentioned before, but the Giant did it in strip 399 wherein V suggests that the Linear Guild be forced to fight in a gladitorial arena. Is it really even possible that the Giant had this much detail planned out nearly 400 strips in advance?

Plus, I love the House references. Lupus: Its what you got when we don't know what you got.

[Timberboar]

No, it does not, as having tea out in broad daylight with a holy priest is hardly a symptom of vampirism. House would sooner assume it's Lupus.

It's NEVER Vampirism.

[Snails]

it has the allure of answering questions because it's what you want it to.

Putting words into my mouth, or presuming to read my mind is not going to help your argument.



and you cannot prove that he isn't in direct sunlight. You are just assuming that he could be because it fits your hypothesis. We have zero proof of that.
I do not have to. I am claiming we are not 100% certain one way or another. You are the one making assumptions here. Logically speaking, that you happen to believe your assumptions are very likely correct does not put any burden of proof on me.

I admit the sunlight issue is a potential problem. Thus, while I respect the opinion of those who find vampirism unlikely, I still respectfully disagree. I do not consider it an insoluble problem. And I would note you are a million miles away from proving it is an insoluble problem.



Have you considered the fact that he has an....i don't know special diet and is frail? Why over-complicate it? That's even much more plausible than jumping to the conclusion that he's a vampire.
Yes, I have.

I can answer the question of how these things are related, within the common D&D rules. Thus my solution is simplifying, by certain objective measures.

Can you answer what "frail" means? Or what exactly the correct diet would be for "frail" person, a diet sufficient strange or inconvenient that normal social dining habits are not practical? You will need to make stuff up. While one of your wild guesses that make stuff up might turn to be correct, any such wild guess will have the obvious downside of being a wild guess based on stuff just made up.

To address the issues on hand, I am making up less stuff than you would have to. At least that is how I see it.

[Snails]

You are presuming that every member of Tarquin's group is basically a carbon copy of Tarquin himself and that has never been true in any organization portrayed thus far in the story. They are their own characters, they're not clones.:smallsigh:

"Carbon copy" and "clone" are your words, not mine. Your arguments rest on making silly presumptions, not mine.

I am merely asserting a similar level of forthrightness among acquaintances is a better guess than the opposite. Would you care to disagree?

(1) Tarquin is Lawful Evil.
(2) Tarquin is excercising a classic style of Lying While Lawful (carefully telling the literal truth, while deceiving through omission)
(3) It would be most logical to guess that Malack is also LE (even it is still conceivable he is some other alignment)
(4) Malack's oblique style of conversation hints that he also applies #2.

What this has to do with being a clone, I have no idea. You can explain that, if it is actually relevant to anything.

[Timberboar]

I am merely asserting a similar level of forthrightness among acquaintances is a better guess than the opposite. Would you care to disagree?

I would disagree on this point.

When's the last time you saw an adventuring group all composed of the same alignment?

[Snails]

I would disagree on this point.

When's the last time you saw an adventuring group all composed of the same alignment?

From a literary point of view, for the protagonists, your point is a good one. Perhaps at the tabletop as well. Under our context, I have doubts it applies to the NPC teams.

The Linear Guild seems to be primarily Chaotic Evils, with perhaps an occasional Chaotic Neutral tagging along.

Tarquin's gambit implies a tolerance for evil, as well as the ability to stay generally coordinated in tactics and goals for long period of time at a distance. Surely they are a mix of LE, NE, LN, and perhaps a N tagging along.

OTOH, Order of the Scribble seems to be a diverse hodgepodge. But that party serves as both a mirror in which to see the OotS in a new light and a warning about what happens when such a hodgepodge fails to hold it together.

[FujinAkari]

The Linear Guild seems to be primarily Chaotic Evils, with perhaps an occasional Chaotic Neutral tagging along.

We know for a fact that Yikyik was Chaotic Good. Hilgya certainly seemed non-evil as well.

[MoonCat]

We know for a fact that Yikyik was Chaotic Good. Hilgya certainly seemed non-evil as well.

Well, she was trying to kill her husband...

And her god is CE

[bertoltus]

Yeah, poisoning your husband is totally something a person of neutral alignment would do.
edit: ninja'd

[Gift Jeraff]

We know for a fact that Yikyik was Chaotic Good. Hilgya certainly seemed non-evil as well.
Er, Yikyik was supposed to be a kobold version of Belkar. Assuming you mean Yokyok, the general assumption seems to be that he was Lawful Good. Which makes sense, seeing as how Roy/Thog, Elan/Nale, and Durkon/Hilgya seem to be on complete opposite corners of the alignment chart. (And it may be the case for Haley/Sabine as well; it's entirely plausible that Sabine is a Lawful demon.)

And the Giant explicitly calls Hilgya evil in War & XPs.

[Whiffet]

The Linear Guild seems to be primarily Chaotic Evils, with perhaps an occasional Chaotic Neutral tagging along.

I thought Nale was explicitly Lawful Evil? Well, I could be remembering wrong, but I guess that doesn't really matter.

I think looking at this strictly through alignments is the wrong way to look at it. I doubt Malack and Tarquin are very alike because OOTS villains working together, even very closely, can be different. Just look at Xykon and Redcloak. We don't really know that much about Tarquin's team, so who knows what Malack and the others are like?

Now back to the original topic... I'm eager to see if the Reptilian ambassador's sensitive information for the Empress will be important.

[Kish]

Nale: Established Lawful Evil.
Yikyik: Established "Belkar in kobold form," which almost certainly means Chaotic Evil, but it's not impossible to debate.
Hilgya: Willing to poison her husband for not objecting to an arranged marriage. Probably Chaotic Evil, just toward the neutral end of evil.
Yokyok: Probably Lawful Good.

[Yendor]

Hilgya poisoning her arranged-marriage husband seems more Chaotic Stupid, but it's still evil. The motivation seems like blind resentment of authority rather than deliberate malice.

[Leecros]

You are the one making assumptions here.
And with that, i think i'm done with this debate.
The entire basis of your arguments is based on assumptions, and I'm the one making the assumptions here?:smallsigh:

It's clear to me that this discussion is simply going to start crumbling and without presentation of new evidence within the comic itself the argument is going to degrade quite quickly. So i'm just going to step out of this and swallow my urge to debate and argue(things that i love to do) and leave the comic to decide. I'm certain that by the end of this arc we will probably know what Malack is.

I will however be very surprised if Malack does turn out to be a vampire and a little bit disappointed, not because I'm wrong, but for reasons i brought up in this thread. those two strips where he's seen outside is a hole in the vampirism background of the character and if he is a vampire from an artistic view i feel it definitely should have been shown that he was quite clearly in the shadows.

[Snails]

I will however be very surprised if Malack does turn out to be a vampire and a little bit disappointed, not because I'm wrong, but for reasons i brought up in this thread. those two strips where he's seen outside is a hole in the vampirism background of the character and if he is a vampire from an artistic view i feel it definitely should have been shown that he was quite clearly in the shadows.

While I disagree with your reasoning in many places, I agree that this point here has merit.

[veti]

To the thread starter, I'd just like to mention that "foreshadowing that has not yet come to pass" is called "guessing". It only becomes "foreshadowing" when the event has come to pass, and the connection becomes clear.

(Usually when we study literature, we look at complete stories. This whole "unfinished story" business is playing havoc with the basic analytical terms and tools.)


I personally think the quickly developing Elan v. Nale counts. I mean its pretty obvious Nale is trying to take over/destroy the Empire of Blood.

Tarquin argued that Elan, his son, was somehow destined to defeat him. But from the dramatic conventions point of view, it makes just as much sense for Nale to be the one who defeats him. Then Tarquin's foresight is satisfied, even though he was wrong.

[The Black Staff]

All of you are wrong! Malack is actually Micheal Jackson!

[Whiffet]

All of you are wrong! Malack is actually Micheal Jackson!

So Roy's comment back at the War Council in Azure City was a legitimate concern? :smallamused:

[Francis Davey]

Also, there is a feat in Libris Mortis that would allow a vampire to pass sunlit areas for a longer time (but still measured in rounds, so not a whole lot more time).

There's a 3.5 WOTC module where the main protagonist is (a) a vampire (b) immune to sunlight and (c) the lawful ruler of the local area. Players seem unsurprised by (b) (it just takes some magic you know) and (c) is entirely plausible. Knowing your ruler is a vampire need not be particularly worrying - sure if they are keenly spreading their kind it might concern you, but if they are reasonably lawful and keep things going, having the odd person killed by them occasionally may not worry most people.

Ditto a high priest.

[Toper]

To the thread starter, I'd just like to mention that "foreshadowing that has not yet come to pass" is called "guessing". It only becomes "foreshadowing" when the event has come to pass, and the connection becomes clear.
I don't think that matches normal usage of the term. For example, Tarquin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html) is happy to talk about foreshadowing things that haven't happened yet.

We can argue about whether any given bit of text is foreshadowing or not, of course, but that's true even of completed stories.

[hoff]

Guessing is more like "I guess that belkar will die soon" without knowing the oracle prophecy. With the prophecy it is foreshadowing.

[Silver Swift]

I don't know if this is exactly foreshadowing, but I'm still waiting for what the archon was supposed to do in 664 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html)

[Thanatosia]

The vulnerability to sunlight is a pretty key feature to vampires. They need weaknesses like that to explain why the world has not already become empire of vampirica. Without things like that to keep them in line, it stretches the plausability of any story where they are still rare creatures that must remain hidden instead of just openly ruling the world. I think any author who includes vampires that keep most of their strengths but allows their weaknesses like the whole sunlight thing to be trivially negated are kind of lazy hacks (unless they are actually writing a world where vampires do rule everything).

[hoff]

I don't know if this is exactly foreshadowing, but I'm still waiting for what the archon was supposed to do in 664 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html)

That is a good one I missed. My guess is that the archon is gathering a angel army to help fight xykon.

[Snails]

The vulnerability to sunlight is a pretty key feature to vampires. They need weaknesses like that to explain why the world has not already become empire of vampirica. Without things like that to keep them in line, it stretches the plausability of any story where they are still rare creatures that must remain hidden instead of just openly ruling the world. I think any author who includes vampires that keep most of their strengths but allows their weaknesses like the whole sunlight thing to be trivially negated are kind of lazy hacks (unless they are actually writing a world where vampires do rule everything).

Yes, this is a known problem, which is usually resolved by some kind of handwaving "the Good clerics get tipped off and keep them in check, usually".

Your reasoning applies not just to vampires, but a host of other kinds of Undead in the D&D bestiary, except some of the alternatives are potentially much more fecund than vampires.

By the book, a single Shadow has a reasonable chance of overwhelming a large city in a single night. It just has to be lucky enough to create a large cascade of Shadow spawning before any powerful cleric gets wind of the problem. When matched up against Commoners, a Shadow could create another Shadow within 1 minute or less. Thus there could be more than 1000 Shadows roaming a dense city in 10 minutes. Even the spell Death Ward is only a temporary haven from such a deluge -- few heroes could survive except by fleeing.

Malack could be some kind of undead other than vampire that merely dislikes sun, rather than direly harmed by direct sunlight. (I think it is more sporting to stick with the vampire hypothesis, rather than use such a vague out.)

[Kish]

There's no real need for handwaving. There are many creatures of comparable or better power than vampires in D&D worlds...starting with "adventurers."

[ThePhantasm]

I have no doubt that the death squad (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0755.html) was foreshadowing, and that they will have some role to play in coming events. Maybe the OOTS will have to combat them when Tarquin turns on them...

[Snails]

I have no doubt that the death squad (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0755.html) was foreshadowing, and that they will have some role to play in coming events. Maybe the OOTS will have to combat them when Tarquin turns on them...

It is the climatic showdown between Banjo, and Hurt & Burnie I am looking forward to.

[Thanatosia]

Maybe the OOTS will have to combat them when Tarquin turns on them...
I *really* hope not. Tarquin has done a great job as establishing himself as something more then just another Villain. The fact that he's perfectly willing to help the order on their way and give them every aid and support, even after Elans confrontation with him, is one of the more interesting aspects of his appearance in the strip IMO. I will be very disapointed if they go the more conventional route of having to 'fight it out' with him, or 'escape from him' or in any other way come into some direct conflict that must be overcome with him..... at least in the here and now.

I hope the order and Tarquin part ways amiably this time. yeah, he's evil and will need to be dealt with in the long term, but not every evil thing in the world needs to be resolved on first contact.