Epic Con Optimization Help

[Mr. Anon Omys]

First, some background:
Next week, a member of my group has decided that he wants to DM an epic game. As part of the premise of the game, each character will embody a different statistic, partially because the DM also wants the characters to be able to form Voltron. Each character also has a nemesis, and it is for one of these nemesi that I come to you.
We have decided that the nemisis to the wisdom based cleric (a necromancer based on the Abhorsen books, with bells) will be a con based character, to better shrug off the cleric's spells. We then decided that the character would be a tree, to be immune to the cleric's custom items (The aforementioned bells).
In a nutshell, My DM has asked me to come up with a Con based character, not a DFA, who is also an awakened tree. Steadfast determination is a must in the build as well.

All books, and dragon is generally allowed.

[supermonkeyjoe]

the X stst to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) thread would be an appropriate start, also it'd be a crime not to take levels in the Fist of the Forest PrC

[Douglas]

Well, looking through the constitution list in X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732), Fist of the Forest looks like it should be a perfect fit, Kensai plus Steadfast Determination would get all three saves based on constitution, and there might be a few others you could reasonably fit in.

[RaggedAngel]

As for actually boosting your Con there isn't much other than a +5 Manual and a +12 item; however, the epic stat boosting items are disgustingly expensive, so it may not be worth it.

[AmberVael]

As for actually boosting your Con there isn't much other than a +5 Manual and a +12 item; however, the epic stat boosting items are disgustingly expensive, so it may not be worth it.

There's also a Silithar Graft that grants +2 to constitution, which is an untyped bonus for 110,000. Pretty expensive, but if you're investing heavily into constitution at high levels, it is worth it. Much better than an epic magic item.

[tonberrian]

Mineral Warrior barbarian/bear warrior. When someone asks if it's an animal, mineral, or vegetable you can honestly say it's all three!

[Cespenar]

A level of Swordsage might pay off too, if taken near the end. Since you're aiming for an "epic con", your Concentration will benefit from that as well. Insightful Strike, Ruby Nightmare Blade, Action Before Thought and Moment of Perfect Mind would make good use of that.

[faceroll]

Assuming no infinite loops and relatively easy access to a 20th level caster using persistent spell abuse coupled with something like ocular spell, I can get 90 con on a treant:

Untyped sources of con:
Rage +4
Reckless Rage +2
Bear Warrior Rage (+6 for black bear, I think, maybe not, but supercedes rage bonus)
Primeval (turn into an animal, add its con-10 or -11 to your own; a dire lion would give you 6 con) gets, over 9 levels, +7 untyped to con.
The spell Giant Size, CL19, gets you an untyped +12.

Useful templates for gaining more con:
Lolth touched +6, LA+1 (acquired)
half-minotaur +6 (if going from medium to large size), LA+1 (inherited)
Feral +4, LA+1 (inherited)
Arctic +2, LA+0 (inherited)
Mineral Warrior +4, LA+1 (acquired)

The spell Bite of the Werebear gives you a +8 enhancement bonus to con.
Tome for +5.

Arctic Lolth-Touched Mineral Warrior Treant Barbarian1/Primeval9 with a tome of +5 con and Giant Size and Bite of the Werebear on it has:
18(base)+10(race)+12(templates)+2(levels)+5(tome)+ 17(primeval in megaraptor morph)+6(reckless rage)+20(spells) = 90 con. Strength is around 30is, I think. Using Psychofeedback (hard to get; 5th level power), you could take ML to str damage and get that to con.

[tyckspoon]

Awakened trees function as intelligent Animated Objects, which have no Con score. Would it be safe to assume this character will actually be running off the stats for a Treant instead, which benefits from a beefy +10 Con adjustment?

People have already mentioned several ways to get Con to defenses; Fist of the Forest + Steadfast Determination seems like a no brainer with relatively soft entry requirements (well, ok, Fist requires kinda bad entry feats.) I don't know of any really good ways to turn Con into an offensive stat, tho, so for that end you'll probably want to rely on good class selection and the tre(ant)'s naturally high Strength and damage dice. (Alternately, go Totemist, and attack with really high DC Soulmeld saves. The downside is that an epic cleric is probably going to be immune or obnoxiously resistant to half or more of what soulmelds can do.)

[Kansaschaser]

If infinte loops are allowed....

Play a Wild Shaping Druid, prestige into the Master of Many Forms and the Fist of the Forest. Fist of the Forest gets to add the constitution modifier to their armor class.

Take enough levels of the Master of Many Forms to get Plant Shape and the Extraordinary abilities.

Then use Wild Shape to turn into a Shambling Mound. Buy a Shocking Sap+1. Hit yourself with the sap. As a plant, you are immue to subdual damage. Also, as a Shambling Mound, you are immune to electricity. Any electricity damage gives you a bonus to Constitution.

You can now get a MASSIVE Constitution and Armor Class.

[Urpriest]

Frankly, a shambling mound by itself would be a good way to do this character anyway, as it gets you everything the awakened tree does (namely being a plant). Stack various Con-based levels on top of it and go to town.

[Kansaschaser]

Frankly, a shambling mound by itself would be a good way to do this character anyway, as it gets you everything the awakened tree does (namely being a plant). Stack various Con-based levels on top of it and go to town.

Yeah, if you played a Shambling Mound, then you wouldn't have to take levels of Master of Many Forms.

In that case, you could take levels of Warblade or Swordsage. Take the Diamond Mind maneuvers that allow you to use your Concentration checks for things.

Using a Greater Insightful Strike allows you to do your Concentration check x2 for damage.

If you boosted your con up to the thousands (10,000 sounds good), then you could easily do 10K+ damage in one strike.

[Popertop]

As for actually boosting your Con there isn't much other than a +5 Manual and a +12 item; however, the epic stat boosting items are disgustingly expensive, so it may not be worth it.

you don't need to buy a tome to get +5 inherent, you can just cast wish five times :smallcool:

[tonberrian]

you don't need to buy a tome to get +5 inherent, you can just cast wish five times :smallcool:

No, you can't, really. The wishes have to be in immediate succession, and I don't think you can save up the xp to not level up, leaving you without 25000 xp to spend in a row until level 25.

[Seerow]

You're playing epic, but how high epic? Like level 21? 30?

If its like 25-30ish, you may want to consider like 21 levels of Wizard (or equivalent caster prestige), and make an epic spell to grant yourself +whateverthe****youwant constitution. Because epic spells do stuff like that way easier and cheaper than say a +12 constitution item else being discussed.

[Moose Man]

I'm in his group, we're playing lvl 21, last I heard from our DM. The Necro-Cleric and me (Black Ethergaunt Batman Batman Wizard) have the casting covered, and our DM flat out doesn't allow super overpowered stuff, such as infinite loops, and many other abusable things (pun-pun included).
@Mr. Anon Omys: I thought you were doing Cha, and being the right leg. The "Kirk Cobain" element of out group was supposed to do Con. What happened?

[Kansaschaser]

I'm in his group, we're playing lvl 21, last I heard from our DM. The Necro-Cleric and me (Black Ethergaunt Batman Batman Wizard) have the casting covered, and our DM flat out doesn't allow super overpowered stuff, such as infinite loops, and many other abusable things (pun-pun included).

At what point would you DM put a stop to the Shambling Mound + Electricity combo? Would he let you get over 100 CON? Over 1,000 CON?

Technically, the combo is not infinite. You are limited by your number of actions per day. Plus, if you stop taking electricity damage for one full hour, the bonus to CON goes away.

[Moose Man]

He'd probably limit it to 30-60.

[erikun]

Dwarven Sorcerers have an ACF that allows them to use Constitution as a spellcasting stat. The Deepwarden (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=4) isn't too impressive, but two levels allows you to use Constitution as an AC value.


If you aren't looking at spellcasting, then check out the X stat to Y bonus link others have provided. You can easily get Constitution used for Will saves (Steadfast Determination feat) and AC (Deepwarden PrC). There are several Diamond Mind maneuvers from Tome of Battle that allow Concentration checks in exchange for saves and damage, and apparently the Kensai PrC allows you to use Con for Reflex saves. I'm not sure which level it grants the ability, though.

I'm not familiar with the Hammer of Earth item, but if it adds Con to damage it would be highly useful, especially with the ToB maneuvers. The biggest trouble is that you don't have an easy way to add Con to your attack rolls; Mineral Warrior is only 1/day.

I would recommend a Tome of Battle class, preferably with Deepwarden 2 and however much Kensai is needed for the Reflex bonus. (Getting what is basically free weapon enchantments is nice, too.) If you are a dwarf, you can even go into the Deepstone Sentinel PrC, although I'm not sure how useful the class features will be at epic levels.

[Mr. Anon Omys]

Firstly, thank you to anyone who responded or will respond in the future.

Second, I think that I am going to run mineral warrior shambling mound fist of the forest by my DM and see what he thinks. Any recommendations to take the build all the way to 21 with LA buyoff would be appreciated.

Thirdly, Mooseman, the build is not for me, but for my DM. My character is an invoker (one of my favorite playground homebrews) who gets CHA to everything.

Edit: Would the feat Shape Soulmeld: Lightning gauntlets allow one to do electric damage to oneself at will?

[Necroticplague]

Edit: Would the feat Shape Soulmeld: Lightning gauntlets allow one to do electric damage to oneself at will?

Yes, but it requires a touch attack, so don't raise your AC so high you can't touch yourself.

[Urpriest]

Firstly, thank you to anyone who responded or will respond in the future.

Second, I think that I am going to run mineral warrior shambling mound fist of the forest by my DM and see what he thinks. Any recommendations to take the build all the way to 21 with LA buyoff would be appreciated.

Thirdly, Mooseman, the build is not for me, but for my DM. My character is an invoker (one of my favorite playground homebrews) who gets CHA to everything.

Edit: Would the feat Shape Soulmeld: Lightning gauntlets allow one to do electric damage to oneself at will?

I assume since this is for the DM, you mean CR 21?

[Seerow]

Firstly, thank you to anyone who responded or will respond in the future.

Second, I think that I am going to run mineral warrior shambling mound fist of the forest by my DM and see what he thinks. Any recommendations to take the build all the way to 21 with LA buyoff would be appreciated.

Thirdly, Mooseman, the build is not for me, but for my DM. My character is an invoker (one of my favorite playground homebrews) who gets CHA to everything.

Edit: Would the feat Shape Soulmeld: Lightning gauntlets allow one to do electric damage to oneself at will?

Out of curiosity, which Invoker? There's been several.

[Mr. Anon Omys]

It would be a 21st level character.

And the invoker that I like to use is found here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153863

[Popertop]

No, you can't, really. The wishes have to be in immediate succession, and I don't think you can save up the xp to not level up, leaving you without 25000 xp to spend in a row until level 25.

25k xp at epic is a trivial amount

[riddles]

Dwarven Sorcerers have an ACF that allows them to use Constitution as a spellcasting stat. The Deepwarden (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=4) isn't too impressive, but two levels allows you to use Constitution as an AC value.


Where can this acf be found? I just had an idea for an insane naked battle sorceror