[3.5] New Alchemy Rules - PEACH

[Rei_Jin]

Alchemy and Poison for the modern adventurer
Looking at the existing rules for alchemy and poisons, there seems to be no pattern, no method of price adjudication or item creation, as well as very little versatility. What I seek to do with this system is to streamline it all, as well as rewarding players for developing their skills and interests outside of combat. This system has been playtested to a decent degree, and refined slightly from its first iteration four years ago.


Item Creation DCs
Elemental Flask:
Base DC 10 (Craft: Alchemy)
Add +5 per 1d6 of damage for Fire, Ice, Lightning, or Acid (starts at 0d6 damage)
Add +10 per 1d6 of damage for Sonic (starts at 0d6 damage)
Add +2 per round of duration
Add +10 per increase in radius (starts at one 5ft square)
Add +2 per +1 to the required Reflex Save against the area effect damage (starts at DC10)
NB. The duration is important with the elemental flasks, as that defines how long the effect will stay in the targeted square/squares. If you don't put duration on it, the duration will be instantaneous. You pay for each round of duration if it is anything other than an instantaneous effect.


Effect Flask:
Base DC 10 (Craft: Alchemy)
Add +5 for any one of the following effects: Entangling, Deafening, Blinding
Add +10 for either of the following effects: Sleeping, Paralysing
Add +2 per round of duration
Add +10 per increase in radius (starts at one 5ft square)
Add +2 per +1 to the required save (starts at DC10)
NB. The duration is important with the effect flasks, as that defines how long the effect lasts. If you don't put duration on it, it won't work. You pay for each round of duration.


Poison Flask:
Base DC 10 (Craft: Poison)
Add +5 per 1d6 of initial ability damage one of the following stats: STR, DEX, INT, WIS, CHA
Add +10 per 1d6 of initial ability damage to CON
Add +5 per 1d6 of secondary ability damage one of the following stats: STR, DEX, INT, WIS, CHA
Add +10 per 1d6 of secondary ability damage to CON
If the secondary damage is to a different stat than the initial, reduce the DC by 5
Add +2 if the Poison is activated by ingestion
Add +5 if the Poison is activated by injury
Add +10 if the Poison is activated by inhalation or contact
Add +2 per +1 to the required save (Starts at DC10)

Note: All flasks may only have one effect or element for the initial creation.

Combining effects:
If you wish to have more than one type of effect on a Flask, then design the different elements as individual flasks, then add the DCs together. If you are mixing elemental damage with poison damage for example, you would need to be able to hit the higher DC with BOTH Craft: Alchemy and Craft: Poison. Also, note that if you are combining a poison with an alternate effect, the alternate effect is administered in the same method as the poison. Poisons do not become area effects.





Usage

Elemental Flasks:
To use an Elemental Flask you throw it as a Standard Action, or as part of a Full Round Attack Action, that provokes Attacks of Opportunity, either against an individual or against a square. The range increment is 10ft with a maximum range of 5 range increments. You must make a successful ranged touch attack against your chosen target (DC10 if aiming for a square). If you miss your target, roll scatter dice (1d8 for direction, 1d6 for number of squares. The Elemental Flask then activates, dealing its damage to the initial target (no save) and splash damage to those within the area of effect (Reflex Save for half damage)


Effect Flasks:
To use an Effect Flask you throw it as a Standard Action, or as part of a Full Round Attack Action, that provokes Attacks of Opportunity, either against an individual or against a square. The range increment is 10ft with a maximum range of 5 range increments. You must make a successful ranged touch attack against your chosen target (DC10 if aiming for a square). If you miss your target, roll scatter dice (1d8 for direction, 1d6 for number of squares. The Effect Flask then activates, dealing its effect to the initial target (No Save for Entangling, Fortitude Save for Deafening, Blinding, and Paralysing, Will Save for Sleeping) and splash damage to those within the area of effect (Reflex Save for Entangling, Fortitude Save for Deafening, Blinding, and Paralysing, Will Save for Sleeping)


Poison Flask:
To use a Poison Flask depends on the method of delivery. Ingested Poisons must be swallowed by the target; they take effect 5 minutes after ingestion. Injury poisons are only effectively administered when the target takes damage from a piercing or bladed weapon (1hp minimum) and take effect immediately. Contact poisons need only touch the target, thus a successful touch attack with the poison will succeed, and it will take effect immediately. Inhaled poisons are breathed in and take effect immediately. Inhaled poisons are generally delivered via a cloth or other direct delivery method.




Method of Creation and Market Value
The cost of creation is half the items market value, plus the relevant time it takes to make the check. The required DC to successfully make the item is listed by the previous formula, you MUST meet that DC to be able to make the item. There are two acceptable methods for increasing your check result to meet the DC. The first is to have assistance, when two or more people are working on a flask, each individual beyond the first adds their base skill ranks to the total check result of the first individual. The second method is to take additional time… normally it takes one day to make an alchemical item, but if you are unable to meet the DC, each additional day you spend working on the item increases your check result by 10.

The Market Value is built into the DCs. Meaning that the higher the DC, the higher the cost.

There is a formula for the market value of the different items.


Elemental Flask:
The cost is DC/2 (Round up), then squared, divided by 2 and then converted into gp.
As an example, if you take a Fire Flask (2d6 Fire damage, DC20 to make), the cost will be 20/2 = 10, 10x10 = 100, 100/2 = 50, 50gp. If you were instead to make a Fire Burst Flask (2d6 damage in a 15ft diameter, originating from the target, DC 10 save against area damage, DC30 to make), the market value will be 30/2 = 15, 15x15 = 225, 225/2 = 112.5, 112gp 5sp. Of course, this also means that you can make monstrous effects. If I wanted to mimic a fireball for example... Fireball Flask (6d6 Fire Damage in a 45ft Diameter, DC 15 against area damage, DC90 to make), the market value would be 90/2 = 45, 45x45 = 2025, 2025/2 = 1012.5, 1012gp 5sp.



Effect Flask:
The cost is DC/2 (Round up), then squared, and then converted into gp.
As an example, if you take an Entangling Flask (Entangling effect on one target, one round duration, DC 17 to make), the market value would be 17/2 = 9, 9x9 = 81, 81gp. If you were to create a Sleep Area Flask (Sleep effect in a 15ft Diameter, DC 15 Will Save, effect lasts for 5 rounds, DC 50 to make), the market value would be 50/2 = 25, 25x25 = 625, 625gp.


Poison Flask:
The cost is DC/2 (Round up) then squared, multiplied by 2 and then converted into gp . As an example, if you take a Dexterity Poison Flask (1d6 Dex/1d6 Dex, Injury poison, DC 15 Negates, DC 35 to make), the market value would be 35/2 = 18, 18x18 = 324, 324x2 = 648, 648gp per dose.


Combined Items:
When combining items, the cost is based on the highest tier of creation. For example, if I was making a flask that did both elemental and effect, I would base the pricing off the effect. If I was basing it off elemental and poison, it would be based off the poison. Thus, once you have added the two DCs together to create your item, you then use the correct formula.




Unusual Items
It IS possible to make unusual alchemical items and poisons using this system. For example, if I wanted to make a poison that did paralysis for 10 rounds as the initial damage, and 1d6 Dex damage as the secondary, I would use the following formula for creation.
10 (Base for Poison Flask)
+0 (No initial damage)
+5 (1d6 Dex Damage as secondary)
+10 (Inhalation poison)
+10 (DC 15 Fortitude Save)

10 (Base for Effect Flask)
+10 (Paralysis effect)
+20 (10 round duration)
+10 (DC 15 Fortitude Save)

DC 35 + DC 60 = DC 95

The market value would be 95/2 = 48, 48x48 = 2304, 2304x2 = 4608, 4608gp.

You now have a very unusual poison, but one that will allow you to taunt your victim whilst they lie there unable to move, is administered merely by breathing it in, and even if they do survive the 10 rounds of paralysis will leave them partially crippled and unable to move freely.

[Kyrinthic]

I would change duration DCs to +2 / doubling.
the value of longer durations drops off pretty quickly, it will help keep the DCs from getting crazy high.
look at the value in a paralasis flask:
{table]Duration|DC fixed| DC doubling
1 round | 20 | 20
2 rounds | 22 | 22
4 rounds | 26 | 24
8 rounds | 34 | 26
16 rounds | 50 | 28
[/table]
The bump from 20-22 to 28 is enough to account for it being a long lasting poison, considering each +2 or so represents a characters level growth, and they still have to buy up the DC. On the other hand, even at 8 rounds, the DC is clearly spiraling out of control, making anything but very short or instant effects silly to do.

Also, in your formulas, try to do the squaring before the dividing, rather that dividing twice, its makes it overly complicated. IE On a flask, instead of 'DC /2 squared / 2', do 'DC squared / 4'.

Overall, very nice concept. Allow that certain 'common' alchemical compounds have a different (lower) DC than the chart so you will see them more. Introduce 'recipes' as treasure that have Items at lower DC than would be normal, could be a lot of fun, adding a new type of consumable pseudo magic item to the game.

Might also want to have the DC be +1 / DC and capped at 10+ranks in craft alchemy. Will prevent players from building unsavable status effects early, and allow characters to put more interesting effects on potions without falling behind the save curve later.

[deuxhero]

A quick glance says acid flasks/ect get stupidly hard to make at anywhere near halfway decent damage.

[Kyrinthic]

You are right about the DCs now that I look harder at it. Let me poke at some numbers...

I see it like this, a character trying to focus a bit on alchemy would have a +3 stat, 4 ranks. Over his career he might invest in a +3 skill feat, and will probably maintain a +skill magic item.

I see his progression something like:
level 1: +7 (stats and ranks),
level 5: 15 (stats, ranks, +2 stat item, +3 skill item)
level 10: 27 (stats with levelup, +2 stat item, +5 skill item, feat)
level 16: 37 (stats with levelups, +6 stat item, +10 skill item, feat)

Overall it works out to level x2 +5. Again, this is for a character focusing on it. Dabbling will give a good bit less, probably closer to level+5)

That means he is progressing the damage at 1d6 per 2.5 levels, which is pretty bad considering. Now that I'm looking at the DCs again, it should scale a bit better.

Looking at damage flasks to start in this light:
10 base DC to counter taking 10, might not really be needed.
Give it +3 per die of damage (or half die with sonic)
+2 per duration doubling
+4 per 5' increase in radius
Save is factored by the overall DC of the flask, 5+1/2 DC maybe?
Allow spending +1 per point to bring it up from its default at most x1.5?

So, a level 1 character could reliably get a +7 point flask, so 2d6 damage, or 1d6 in 10', or 1d6 that hangs out for a few rounds. This sounds reasonable. It wont be cheap, which is how its balanced.

At level 5 you could get a 15 point flask. thats 5d6 damage, or 3d6 with a few adders, or 1d6 in a 15 foot radius for 4 rounds or something, again, on par with spells, cost should be a valid counter.

Level 16 gives you a sizable 37 point flask. Thats 12d6 damage, or a lot of interesting modifiers, and the cost is becoming more reasonably bearable, but 12d6 as level 16 isnt anything awe-inspiring.

In your original system, that level 16 guy could make a 7d6 flask that burned for 2 rounds.

Now, with all of these, those are the take 10 numbers. A guy could risk the die roll and wasting materials to get another couple D6 or other effects, but with the costs being non-trivial, thats a noticable risk.

make the cost a flat DC squared? I'm not sure, you want to make sure they remain costly at mid levels, and not free at higher levels. Maybe look over necklace of missiles or magic item creation guidelines for costs?

Sorry my initial post I didnt really do the math on where players skills would be by a given level, but a 'fireball flask' that you describe should not require epic skills to make.

[Rei_Jin]

If you were able to digest the whole thing (and it's a lot, I admit) you don't need epic skills to make higher DC items. Each extra day you spend working on an item adds +10 to your check result. Also, if you are working with an assistant, their base ranks are added to your check result.

So whilst a level 5 PC should be able to reasonably make a DC 25 item by taking ten, if he spends an extra day making it, he can make DC 35 item. Each extra day adds +10, so that if he spends long enough, he can make anything (assuming he can afford it)

[jvluso]

If you were able to digest the whole thing (and it's a lot, I admit) you don't need epic skills to make higher DC items. Each extra day you spend working on an item adds +10 to your check result. Also, if you are working with an assistant, their base ranks are added to your check result.

So whilst a level 5 PC should be able to reasonably make a DC 25 item by taking ten, if he spends an extra day making it, he can make DC 35 item. Each extra day adds +10, so that if he spends long enough, he can make anything (assuming he can afford it)

According to what? You can try to work more quickly by adding to the DC, but there is nothing for working more slowly.

All that an assistant can do is use aid another giving a possible +2, not add their ranks to your check.

Edit: I didn't see that this was an added part, I was going by normal craft rules, never mind

Edit 2: Why are you changing the crafting rules so much for these? Nobody will ever buy them for the market prick since they can so easily make them themselves. Was there something wrong with how the craft skill usually works?

[Rei_Jin]

These rules work differently to what the standard crafting rules do, because they're designed for PCs to be able to use them, not just NPCs. I can't see a PC spending the required 30+ weeks it takes to make a suit of MW Fullplate, nor can I see the need to ask them to. That's the job of an NPC.

People like being able to craft their own alchemical items and poisons. This system is designed with that in mind. It gives flexibility, at a cost. That cost, is gold pieces, and the effort to make your own items.

A DM is able to designate special recipes as he sees fit (for example, long term sleep poisons, re-creation of Ditherbombs, etc) but that's for him to decide. These rules are meant to be flexible, give people options, allow them to customise their creations.

I've seen area effect tanglefoot bags created with this. Flash-bangs. Lightning balls. It's only limited by what you want to make, within the rules, and those rules are reasonably open.

In some ways, yes, it could be overpowering to allow a PC to create an item with a DC in the hundreds, but that costs them time and gold. Also, this system is subject to rule 0, that is, that a DM has final say on everything. If they don't want you making something, then you can't make it.


EDIT: Why did I change the crafting rules for this? Because when people want to use alchemical items, they're going to want to make them themselves. Same with poisons... you don't just go down to Poisons R Us and pick up a few vials of purple worm venom.

Also, considering how dangerous these things are, most alchemists would only have weak stuff generally for sale, and would do the rest on commission. Not all PCs want to spend downtime on item creation, nor do they necessarily want to spend skill points on item creation. Maybe they just want an alchemical item for one specific mission, and they don't want to invest in it longterm.

[deuxhero]

Ah, forgot about that part of the craft rules. Still, 1 use expendable items are not something I want to spend any real ammount of time on.

[NineThePuma]

The DCs are really high. =\ I like the customization, but the crafting difficulty is ridiculous.

While you altered the default craft rules to accommodate this, it would really be easier to bring the DCs down to a reasonable level.

[Rei_Jin]

You do realise how it works, right? The DC sets the cost, and defines how long it will take to make... but it's far quicker than the existing Alchemy system.

The fact that the DCs are high means very little beyond cost. To give you a comparison, you could make something to replicate Alchemists Fire with a DC 19 Craft: Alchemy check. The standard alchemy system has it set at 20... so the DCs are very close. But then we get into how long it takes to make.

With the existing Alchemy system, it would take you 3 days to make one vial of Alchemists fire. With my new system, it should only take a single day. The existing system also doesn't allow for more powerful effects, where mine does.

If you wanted to make a super Alchemists Fire (On direct hit, take 10d6 Fire Damage per round for 10 rounds) you'd be looking at a DC 70 Craft: Alchemy check. Let's assume you have a base of 10 for your Craft check, and you can take 10. By spending 6 days total working on it, you could make it.

70 looks like a high number, but when you realise that every 10 points of the DC is just one extra day of work, it's really not that high.

[NineThePuma]

I am aware of how it works. Amusingly, I can make a vial that deals NId6 Sonic Damage to the entire world, simply by spending enough time on it. Would you like me to break the system with mathematical examples?

[Rei_Jin]

You sure can, IF you can afford it and your DM approves it.

[NineThePuma]

Enter the Legendary Artisan, Exceptional Artisan, and Exceptional Artisan feats. One of them reduces costs by 75%. Tada.

[Rei_Jin]

Where are those feats from? I know of the Eberron ones relating to magic item creation that remove 25% of the creation cost in GP, time, or XP, but those are related to magic item creation, and not alchemy.


EDIT: I'm aware of how you can break the system. I did make it, and have playtested it. Hence why it's designed to be used in conjunction with your DM, not in isolation.

[NineThePuma]

While those feats are intended for use with Magic Items, there is no part of them that specifies you can't use them with mundane crafting, and in fact, the opposite is true. It says 'crafting' in general, nothing specifies 'crafting magic items' in the feat's benefits.

[Rei_Jin]

You'd have to be a Spellcaster of some sort in order to get them though, as they do specify that you need to have an Item Creation feat in order to take them.

On top of that, they only drop the % of gold or time by 25%. You can't take them more than once. So sure, you could take levels in a Spellcaster class, and then spend a feat to get your pre-req (or a level in wizard, meh) and then spend a feat on either of the ones you're after.

Even a 25% reduction in gold or time won't save you that much when you're talking about items with very high creation DCs.

[NineThePuma]

You're required to be a spell caster anyways. Or did you miss that aspect of the Craft (Alchemy) skill that requires casting?

[Rei_Jin]

Did you notice that nowhere in my listed Alchemy or Poison rules is the requirement to be a spellcaster?

[NineThePuma]

If you don't specify the change, the default is assumed. :smalltongue:

[Seharvepernfan]

How would you rule buying the ingredients for the poisons?

Or is it similar to core alchemy checks, that you only need the tools and money?

[Rei_Jin]

Well, that would be up to the DM. There's a wealth of poisons in all of our houses, and things that can easily be turned into poison. I don't see why the same would not be true of the fantasy world, especially when you bring herbal medicines into it. Some herbs in small doses have restorative properties, but can be toxic... an example of that in D&D is Belladonna.

I can see an issue with buying a pre-made poison, but unless the poison is one that your DM rules is based on a poison that exists in nature and can only be used as a poison (ie, has no other purpose) then it would be difficult to obtain legally.

Of course, if you can get the base items from the wilderness yourself (go out and milk a snake, find the right herbs, etc) then you could reduce the creation cost, but again, that's up to your DM.

[Seharvepernfan]

Anyways, I like these rules. I believe I will be using them in my games from now on.

Good job, sir!

[Kyrinthic]

I did in fact miss that bit about crafting changes.
I honestly dont like that much, an open ended system without limits leads to broken. You have a level 5 characte building a 10d6 fireball or the like, yes it costs, but there should be no price on breaking normal character limits. That said, yes the GM can say 'no' but any system where the gm has to literally check every item due to the large potential for abuse needs refining.

Also, it actually devalues craft alchemy in this way. a level 5 character focused on alchemy, even taken the feat will have maybe +15 craft alchemy. The other level 5 wizard that slaps 1 rank in the skill has like a +5. That means if you are making things with even a remotely high DC (any anything worth using at level 5+ will have a high dc in this system) you are looking at a trivial time addition. Oh no, the 'bottled fireball' would be like a 55 dc by the looks of it. thats 4 days for the guy that works at it, 5 for the other, hardly worth sinking those character building resources into it.

The second person adding ranks is kind of interesting, but again, is it worth the extra resources for a second character to invest in order to save 1-2 days on items that will often take 4-10 days?

Perhaps some sort of middle ground. with the 'extra time' bit is needed.
Craft skill _Should_ be the biggest factor in crafting.
There should be maximums based on that skill (or just level if you want to go that way).
If a player wants a super-powerful potion, they should have to acquire it by finding a more skilled alchemist, just like they would for a higher level spell or magic item.
Helpers should have to make a craft roll (total, not just ranks) and add a bonus to the primary based on the success of that roll, so they feel somewhat involved.

Thats my revised thoughts anyhow :)

[Melayl]

I rather like it. With, as you pointed out, proper DM review (or reasonable, mature players), it seems a reasonably balanced and useful system.

What about other alchemical items? Like the Sunrod, smokesticks, matches, silversheen, etc. Any rules on those, yet? After all, an (NPC) alchemist wanting to make a living doing this isn't just going to be supplying adventurers, the occasional assassin, and town guards. He's going to be supplying things to make the lives of the commoners a little easier. That would be his bread and butter income.

Alchemical potions/items to help plants grow, resist diseases/poisons, help with healing, help with mending, help with pain/childbirth, keep vermin away, etc. Those are what he'd be selling most often, IMO. To commoners, shopkeepers, possibly lower aristocracy (and the occasional adventurer). Adventurers might want some of those things, too. I'd love to see rules for that sort of thing.

[Rei_Jin]

My intention after these rules are refined, is to offer up a number of "recipes" for things that aren't covered by these rules, and offer ways to improve them for an escalating cost. Some of that would be things like Sunrods, Tindertwigs, Ditherbombs, Stoneburn Acid, etc. Basically, anything that already exists in D&D 3.5 that you can't make with these rules, you could make a recipe for.

Kyrinthic, you are right in that it devalues the Craft skills. I'm considering have each day instead of adding +10, of having it add your base ranks to your check again. That way, every rank you put in counts every day.

I'm deliberately leaving it open ended and based on DM arbitration and gold piece costs, but one could reasonably put a limit on what a PC could create by specifying that they can't make anything that is more than say... five days work. For a level 7 PC, that means they could make anything up to a 50 or so DC, which in this system isn't overpowered, but gives them a lot of options.

Of course, every extra rank you put in to your Craft skill would give you an extra +5 maximum to your final check result if I went with the above rule change (to max of 5 days working on an item)

[Cipher Stars]

Love how alechemy is being turned into a better system.

But:

I'd have elemental damage start at 1d6

Ability damages for the effect flasks be lowered to 1d4
Ability damages should use less. a character could have 200 hp, but only 15 or so Constitution. To much of a shortcut to just throw three or four 1d6 con flasks at them.
But also start at 1d4 rather then 0.

[Rei_Jin]

The reason that the elemental damage starts at 0d6, is that you have to pay for whatever effect you want. Meaning that the base 10 DC is the 0d6, but once you pay the first +5, you get 1d6 elemental damage.

I'm curious, why would you change the poison to a base of 1d4? On average it would lead to 1 less point of stat damage per + you're paying for, and poisons really need good DCs to be effective as there's no half effect like there is for elemental flasks, plus they cost a lot more to make.

Not saying that it's not a bad idea, but I'm not sure why you're suggesting it.