De-optimized sorcerer (or, how to make a monk look good)

[Dushara]

So, with all the info out there on how to optimize the heck out of a character class, I thought I'd have some fun with the opposite task: taking a strong character class and nerfing it as much as possible. (Yes, it's like shooting fish in a barrel, but I like easy challenges.) For example, here's the spell list for a level 12 sorcerer that I think would be about as bad as possible. Can you do any worse? What tier would this character be? (I'd also be interested in the spell list for a de-optimaized level 20 sorcerer, but it's harder to find truly horrible 9th level spells.)

Lvl 0:
Detect Poison, Resistance, Daze, Flare, Touch of Fatigue, Arcane Mark, Ray of Frost, Disrupt Undead, Open/Close

Lvl 1:
Endure Elements, Hold Portal, Magic Aura, Chill Touch, Erase

Lvl 2:
Misdirection, False Life, Obscure Object, Daze Monster, Locate Object

Lvl 3:
Gentle Repose, Secret Page, Keen Edge, Water Breathing

Lvl 4:
Illusory Wall, Hallucinatory Terrain, Remove Curse

Lvl 5:
Mage’s Faithful Hound, Dream

Lvl 6:
Contingency

[Kaeso]

So, with all the info out there on how to optimize the heck out of a character class, I thought I'd have some fun with the opposite task: taking a strong character class and nerfing it as much as possible. (Yes, it's like shooting fish in a barrel, but I like easy challenges.) For example, here's the spell list for a level 12 sorcerer that I think would be about as bad as possible. Can you do any worse? What tier would this character be? (I'd also be interested in the spell list for a de-optimaized level 20 sorcerer, but it's harder to find truly horrible 9th level spells.)

Lvl 0:
Detect Poison, Resistance, Daze, Flare, Touch of Fatigue, Arcane Mark, Ray of Frost, Disrupt Undead, Open/Close

Lvl 1:
Endure Elements, Hold Portal, Magic Aura, Chill Touch, Erase

Lvl 2:
Misdirection, False Life, Obscure Object, Daze Monster, Locate Object

Lvl 3:
Gentle Repose, Secret Page, Keen Edge, Water Breathing

Lvl 4:
Illusory Wall, Hallucinatory Terrain, Remove Curse

Lvl 5:
Mage’s Faithful Hound, Dream

Lvl 6:
Contingency

That's a good start, but we could do worse.
Give them only 6 levels of spell progression (like a bard), containing only the spells you just gave us.

Then make him make concentration checks for every spell he wants to cast. The DC is 10 + spell level x 2 + character level.
If you fail, you lose your spell slot.

[Eldariel]

False Life is an excellent spell. You're almost a d6 HP warrior with that. You need to find something worse. Also, Keen Edge.

[Yora]

Is it really neccessary to have Charisma 16? If you can get it lower, the character gets really bad.
Let's say you started with Charisma 11 and are at least smart enough to put all your later points into Cha, that leaves you with only 14 at 12th level and limits spell to 4th level and lower.

[Telonius]

Well, with spellcasters it's trivially easy. Just give them a 9 in their casting stat, and you're done. Are we assuming they have the minimum stats needed to cast the spell?

I think this list would be worse, for the levels indicated.

3 - Halt Undead, Secret Page, Illusory Script, Rage
5 - Transmute Mud to Rock, Dream
6 - Tenser's Transformation

[Kaeso]

As for feats, I'm thinking about taking a lot of martial/exotic weapon proficiency feats and weapon specialisation in all those weapons.

[Telonius]

Mage Slayer is an obvious choice.

Vow of Poverty would also cripple the caster, assuming the spells known all required expensive material components, and no Eschew Materials. (Added benefit of some prerequisite feats).

[Kaeso]

@Telonius: Good one.

Also, try a PrC that gives you hardly any or no spellcasting or benefits relevant to the sorceror class.

If you're a half-elf, arcane archer is a very good (:smallamused: or very bad) choice.

[AmberVael]

Here is my advised spell list, if you want to choose the worst spells possible.
This is using core only, because honestly I'm not sure you need more than core to be horrible. :smalltongue:

Lvl 0:
Detect Poison, Resistance, Daze, Flare, Touch of Fatigue, Arcane Mark, Ray of Frost, Disrupt Undead, Open/Close

Lvl 1:
Erase, Hold Portal, Jump, Magic Aura, Ventriloquism

Lvl 2:
Arcane Lock, Continual Flame, Darkvision, Magic Mouth, Spectral Hand

Lvl 3:
Gentle Repose, Secret Page, Illusory Script, Tiny Hut

Lvl 4:
Illusory Wall, Secure Shelter, Fire Trap

Lvl 5:
Mage’s Faithful Hound, Dream

Lvl 6:
Guards and Wards

[Cespenar]

The real question is: Where can you get a Full plate and a Tower Shield ASAP?

[Sitzkrieg]

I think you can make a spellcaster as bad as you want them to be. Even assuming they have a positive casting stat, it's possible to prepare a lower level spell in a higher level spell slot, so you could prepare a list like this:

Level 0: Arcane Mark, Arcane Mark, Arcane Mark, Arcane Mark, Arcane Mark
Level 1: Arcane Mark, Arcane Mark, Arcane Mark, Arcane Mark, Arcane Mark
etc...

The writing can be visible or invisible!

[Yuki Akuma]

Charisma 9.

[El Dorado]

Endurance and Run are both solid choices.

[mootoall]

We're talking about a sorcerer, so not quite. However ... We've got too much versatility. We need both Light and Dancing Lights as cantrips. I want Message, Whispering Wind and Sending. There's so much wasted potential we're still tapping into!

[ericgrau]

Mostly bad spells. False life is a really good spell. Endure elements is often useful too. Illusory wall could be crazy powerful in the right hands. Confusing and dividing enemies is good. And it's permanent so it can be spammed outside of combat for some clever tactics. Locate object is borderline, as in it's very nice 5-10% of the time and comes up at least once in most campaigns.

IMO replace those with some of the others suggested and you should be good to go. At the very least replace illusory wall.

If you can't find bad 9th level spells then you aren't looking hard enough. Try freedom, refuge, soulbind and maybe astral projection. Awesome once in a lifetime, maybe never, and way, way too narrow for the average adventuring day.

[Cespenar]

We're talking about a sorcerer, so not quite. However ... We've got too much versatility. We need both Light and Dancing Lights as cantrips. I want Message, Whispering Wind and Sending. There's so much wasted potential we're still tapping into!

That's a solid telecom build, sorry. :smalltongue:

[OracleofWuffing]

Does it count to have Summon Familiar, and just never summon the familiar? I mean, that's probably the best route, but I think it's more in the spirit of things to have a de-optimized familiar, too.

[Geigan]

control water or analyze dweomer for a level 6 spell

fabricate... with no ranks in craft

Exotic weapon proficiencies, armor proficiency, and toughness as many times as possible for feats

[Hirax]

The real question is: Where can you get a Full plate and a Tower Shield ASAP?

Close, but wearing mountain plate wastes another feat, and puts you at 110% arcane spell failure chance combined with the tower shield. Plus you can't run while wearing mountain plate, when combined with the slow trait that would make you extra gimpy. So yeah, no need to waste time picking spells in this exercise, since via equipment you can make it impossible for any spells at all to be cast.

edit: actually, you just need to make sure you don't take the still spell feat, and pick no spells lacking somantic components. But that's super easy.

[Vladislav]

Habitually send your squishy familiar into melee. Do not give up this habit regardless of how many familiars (and XP) you lose.

[Godskook]

Alternatively, you can stop downgrading and start upgrading your monk companion. If he's buffed to the 9s, he tends not to realize too much that you're the one making him useful.

[Zale]

Activate.. The Tenser! :furious:

[Douglas]

For nerfing Sorcerer purely through spell selection, try this list:
Cantrips: Dancing Lights, Flare, Light, Mending, Open/Close, Arcane Mark, Resistance, Detect Poison, Daze
Level 1: Hold Portal, Mount, Floating Disk, Erase, Magic Aura
Level 2: Obscure Object, Continual Flame, Phantom Trap, Spectral Hand, Arcane Lock
Level 3: Rage, Tiny Hut, Gentle Repose, Water Breathing
Level 4: Remove Curse, Minor Creation, Secure Shelter, Detect Scrying
Level 5: Dream, Fabricate, Secret Chest, Mage's Private Sanctum
Level 6: Guards and Wards, Legend Lore, Move Earth
Level 7: Instant Summons, Statue, Sequester
Level 8: Binding, Temporal Stasis, Discern Location
Level 9: Freedom, Refuge, Soul Bind

There, have fun shooting your crossbow in combat.

[Flame of Anor]

Feats: Mage Slayer, Vow of Poverty, Toughness, Toughness, Toughness, Toughness...

[Moriato]

Hmm, would Arcane Preperation be enough to let a sorcerer use Sanctified spells? It would be amusing to have only Sanctified spells as a sorcerer, because not only are they mostly pretty sub-par, but they all require a "Sacrifice Component" usually in the form of ability drain. Yay for losing stats every time you cast a spell! Bonus points if it's CHA drain.

[Heatwizard]

Feats: Mage Slayer, Vow of Poverty, Toughness, Toughness, Toughness, Toughness...

But if you take Vow of Poverty, how will you hide in the biggest set of armor you can find and drive up Spell Failure?

[Geigan]

But if you take Vow of Poverty, how will you hide in the biggest set of armor you can find and drive up Spell Failure?

You still can! Grab a suit of armor to own and you just made the feat slot for VoP even more useless.

[Hirax]

Tower shield and exotic armor proficiencies are really all you need as far as feats. Or can you wear those things if you're not proficient? Regardless, once you've got both those, just start taking metamagic feats except still spell. Since your ASF is 110%, you'll never be able to use those metamagic feats for anything, so they're the perfect wasted feat.

[erikun]

Be an Artificer.
Make only cursed equipment.
Wear it.

Congratulations! Not only have you made your proposed Sorcerer look good - heck, you made the Truenamer look good - but if you put on anything that has a Confusion effect, you can't even use wands and staffs half the time! I'm sure your party will love being on the receiving end of a Fireball you tossed at them.

Also, I believe there is a way to have a 0 max HP at 20th level, which means doing anything (including spellcasting) drops you to negatives.

[Psyren]

Activate.. The Tenser! :furious:

A Tenser sorc can kick a monk's ass. Each cast would give him a minimum of 12 rounds to pound Jackie Chan's face in. I'd pay to see that!


Also, I believe there is a way to have a 0 max HP at 20th level, which means doing anything (including spellcasting) drops you to negatives.

You can optimize even that - learn Autohypnosis and you can take actions while making checks to stay at zero (and conscious.)

Of course now we're getting into Psionic Sandwich territory, but still.

[ericgrau]

For nerfing Sorcerer purely through spell selection, try this list:
Cantrips: Dancing Lights, Flare, Light, Mending, Open/Close, Arcane Mark, Resistance, Detect Poison, Daze
Level 1: Hold Portal, Mount, Floating Disk, Erase, Magic Aura
Level 2: Obscure Object, Continual Flame, Phantom Trap, Spectral Hand, Arcane Lock
Level 3: Rage, Tiny Hut, Gentle Repose, Water Breathing
Level 4: Remove Curse, Minor Creation, Secure Shelter, Detect Scrying
Level 5: Dream, Fabricate, Secret Chest, Mage's Private Sanctum
Level 6: Guards and Wards, Legend Lore, Move Earth
Level 7: Instant Summons, Statue, Sequester
Level 8: Binding, Temporal Stasis, Discern Location
Level 9: Freedom, Refuge, Soul Bind

There, have fun shooting your crossbow in combat.

Pretty good (bad), mostly. Tiny hut around a ranged party gives them concealment, although anything can rush in and see the party if there's nothing else in the way. Fabricate could have creative dungeon uses. Statue could be a fairly useful albeit awkward to use defensive buff. Once 250 gp becomes cheap you can spam legend lore as a sort of "detect plot". Detect scrying and water breathing are borderline, though ya not that great.

[Cespenar]

You can optimize even that - learn Autohypnosis and you can take actions while making checks to stay at zero (and conscious.)


That sounds incredibly badass. A wizard of immense power, who, though his body has totally gave up on life, keeps on living through sheer willpower.

[Psyren]

That sounds incredibly badass. A wizard of immense power, who, though his body has totally gave up on life, keeps on living through sheer willpower.

You misspelled "psion" :smallwink:

(A concept like this is much easier for them, especially once you grab feats that let you manifest while unconscious if your AH check fails.)

[Nerdanel]

I think it's not true de-optimization if the player of the character can trivially become much better by taking off some equipment. I think de-optimization should be resistant to the player's efforts to be useful in-game. Also, having the choice to fight in armor IS an extra option although rarely a good one. Maybe if you have no spell slots for useful spells left and want to make it less likely for the rest of the party having to raise you...

I think you can also do better feat-wise than Toughness. Toughness at least slightly improves your survival. My suggestion is to dump your spare feats after Mage Slayer into Skill Focus for various Professions you never put a single skill point in. (Having anything in Craft could be too useful with Fabricate.) Professions DO let you make money in your downtime, but you have no advantage in having a dozen or more of them at equally low skill levels.

[Cespenar]

You misspelled "psion" :smallwink:

(A concept like this is much easier for them, especially once you grab feats that let you manifest while unconscious if your AH check fails.)

Ah, 'kay. I figured since the willpower check is DC 20, it doesn't need to be a Psion, but I didn't know of those feats. Still, badass.

[OracleofWuffing]

I think it's not true de-optimization if the player of the character can trivially become much better by taking off some equipment.
"You are fighting a Rust Monster."
"Hooray!"