So apparently, some classes just suck...

[hobbitkniver]

Well I'm pretty new to the actual game of DnD and I played a ranger which is apparently useless compared what I could have played. So tell me,whats a good alternative to ranger that doesn't "suck" and won't make me useless. I was looking at the scout and it looked pretty similar, is it any good?

[Big Fau]

Ranger isn't useless, it's Tier 4 (Capable of contributing to certain situations, but is a one-trick-pony).


And Scout+Ranger=Swift Hunter, a Tier 3 build (basically where you want to be Tier-wise).

[Hirax]

What kind of character do you wish to play? Have you considered a warblade or swordsage?

[erikun]

What class you want to play depends on what you want to do. The aforementioned Scout+Ranger=Swift Hunter makes a very good archer. Something with sneak attack or other bonus damage, such as a Rogue, makes a very good TWFer. The Wildshape Ranger variant adds a lot of versatility.

And, of course, there is the Druid.

[Amphetryon]

Well I'm pretty new to the actual game of DnD and I played a ranger which is apparently useless compared what I could have played. So tell me,whats a good alternative to ranger that doesn't "suck" and won't make me useless. I was looking at the scout and it looked pretty similar, is it any good?

What source material is available to you? What role did you want to fill, or character did you want to emulate, with a ranger? Why do you feel the ranger "sucks" in fulfilling it?

[Yora]

Question is what the other players are playing: If the others play a wizard and a druid and have played the game for 10 years, it could very likely be the reason your character feels underpowered, but then switching to another character wouldn't solve that at all. Those other characters would always be way better than yours.

[Vladislav]

Good ranger builds that don't suck at all:

Competent archer: Ranger/Scout w/Swift Hunter (requires Complete Adventurer and Complete Scoundrel)

Huge animal companion that doubles up as an extra frontliner: Ranger/Beastmaster (requires Complete Adventurer)

Master Shapeshifter: Wildshape Ranger variant/Master of Many Forms (requires Unearthed Arcana and Complete Adventurer)

Good spellcasting: Mystic Ranger (variant from Dragon Magazine)

[Eldariel]

Ranger is a kind of a strange animal, actually. It's not awful and strictly speaking, it's the only class that does what it does exactly (martial nature class; Druid goes two steps further being a wilderness caster with capability to transform into animal forms and very little interest in any traditional martial skills). Thing is, straight Ranger mostly gains stuff not related to combat. So to gain combat effectiveness, Rangers are reliant on:
- Combat Style (duh; only built-in thing that relates to combat)
- Favored Enemy (yeah, it's combat ability but being restricted to some types means you can't rely on it)
- Spells (these only really grow useful for combat outside Core though)
- Animal Companion (but due to its low level, it'll mostly be there flanking and Aiding Another rather than actually attacking)
- Common Options

Now, you need a certain degree of rules mastery to be where you want to be since the most important parts of your repertoire will come from the "Common Options"-section. Inside Core, these will include:
- Magic Items, especially magic weapons and wondrous items directly enhancing your combat capability
- Feats, though in Core this mostly helps you with the only good combat style your natural options aren't really geared towards (two-handing)

Outside Core, things get a bit better as feats offer more for all the combat styles and Ranger's own abilities, most notably his spellcasting, enhances his combat capabilities in addition to providing out of combat utility.


There's no direct option for a Ranger-like class except better since it covers a somewhat unique role. Wildshape Ranger is strong but probably not what one is looking for if looking at the PHB Ranger. Mystic Ranger is the strongest option out of that bunch but it's just kinda weird with being godlike until level 10 and then starting to fall behind its own power curve since it suddenly caps out on spell levels there.

Cloistered Cleric with the appropriate Domains and Feats could cover approximately the same role around level 6, and some Druid-variants too, but those take a lot of work to get there. Factotum could possibly cover Ranger-role but wouldn't most likely do it much better than a Ranger in spite of being Tier 3, since the factors that make Factotum Tier 3 assume branching out rather than focusing on any particular thing.

For martial types, multiclassing is often an option. Saph's Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) is a great Ranger-approximation in Core, for example; Horizon Walker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/horizonWalker.htm) is a very Ranger-like PRC getting few exceedingly convenient abilities, and then the build just combines Ranger and the best abilities the other martial classes get and the best combat style offered to martial characters in Core to a rather functional whole.

[Amnestic]

And Scout+Ranger=Swift Hunter, a Tier 3 build (basically where you want to be Tier-wise).

It's where some people want to be. Unless you're operating on information I lack, there's no indication the OP wants to be ~Tier 3.

[Tvtyrant]

It's where some people want to be. Unless you're operating on information I lack, there's no indication the OP wants to be ~Tier 3.

That is the board as a wholes preferred balance point; teaching others to use it is necessary propaganda!

[Urpriest]

If this is the campaign I think it is, the OP is competing with someone who is playing a Sword Archon as a first level character. Just sayin'...

[Big Fau]

If this is the campaign I think it is, the OP is competing with someone who is playing a Sword Archon as a first level character. Just sayin'...

Class balance is more important than DM sanity!

[Geigan]

Well when people say that certain classes suck they mean that those classes don't perform well in most situation. However, even those classes have their niche. Even something as lowly as the truenamer can can get ridiculously high knowledge checks if it tries, and if that's all you want to be able to do then it's great for that.

So if you want classes that don't suck please define your use of suck. As is I'll assume that you mean things that perform well in a variety of situations in which case I would advise anything tier 3 and above. If you meant something else please say so as this thread will bring a lot of differing opinions on what does and doesn't suck based on our own personal definitions and it would be helpful to have your opinion as the baseline.

[ILM]

A "ranger" isn't anything. It's a class, it's a label. What does your character do? What are his notable abilities (or those you want him to have)? What's he good at, what does he want to get better at? What's he willing to give up to get good at it? Then people can start telling you which way you should be looking. :smallsmile:

Also, what material do you have access to?

[Veyr]

Ranger is notable for being a bit all over the place: full BAB and some bonus feats, but those shoe-horn you into fighting styles that rely on bonus damage, which the Ranger doesn't get in any appreciable quantity. An animal companion, but low-level so it can't be as much of a front-line combatant as you'd hope. Good skill points, but a mostly-meh class skill list (can't do trap-killing, can't do party face, can't use UMD, can't do most knowledge; that's most of the skill-monkey schticks that you can't do). Spellcasting, but greatly delayed and very few per day.

It's a kind of mish-mash that just doesn't work out that well in practice: you need to pick something and specialize in it, and if you're specializing in any one of these things, there are better classes to take.


A lot of it has to do with how the game is played, though. The Ranger's legitimate strengths — scouting, mostly — don't see a lot of use in most campaigns. Parties tend to stick together, because it's boring to wait for the Ranger to go off, scout, and come back. Same is also usually true for tracking: most of the time, you'll catch up with the enemy exactly when the DM wants you to, no matter what your actual skills are. So the Ranger's strengths tend to be marginalized.

[hobbitkniver]

If this is the campaign I think it is, the OP is competing with someone who is playing a Sword Archon as a first level character. Just sayin'...

It is, but we also have a samuri, knight, and warmage who also outshine me, but it might be because they're half dragons and drow and I'm an elf. I'm starting a new campaign soon though, which is what this is for.

And I'd like to play as close to a ranger as possible without multiclassing. I'm looking at scout right now, can someone give me some feed back on this class?

[Hyfigh]

That's a huge power margin between you and the others. Their (poorly) optimized lower teir characters. You seem to be a low optimized low teir class with less actual gaming experience. You're going to be outshined until you get a really good grasp on things.

For a build? Archery-style you want? I'm gonna throw my vote on Mystic Ranger 16/Scout 4 - Swift Hunter. Make sure you take your Favored Enemies carefully so that you're Skirmish is always useful. Get yourself a bow with the Splitting property. Add the feat Greater Multishot and start going to town.

You can take the Wildshape variant Ranger along with Mystic, but you will become even more feat starved. =/

[Hiro Protagonest]

It is, but we also have a samuri, knight, and warmage who also outshine me, but it might be because they're half dragons and drow and I'm an elf. I'm starting a new campaign soon though, which is what this is for.

And I'd like to play as close to a ranger as possible without multiclassing. I'm looking at scout right now, can someone give me some feed back on this class?

Half-dragons are horrible unless they're large size or have houserules for their breath weapon or LA. Drow also aren't worth +2 LA.

[erikun]

Half-dragons are horrible unless they're large size or have houserules for their breath weapon or LA. Drow also aren't worth +2 LA.
I believe the campaign in question is ignoring both LA and RHD. Drow and Half-Dragons may not be worth their LA, but they're a bit impressive without it.

I'm not quite sure what you want to do though, HobbitKniver. Two weapon fighting? Ranged combat? Just generally being "good"? I might actually recommend a Thri-Kreen Soulknife/Soulbow, just for multiattack ranged absurdity, or something with an impressive attack roll as a Totemist. (Werebear grapple-based Totemist, perhaps?) The don't carry much of a nature-based theme, though.

[Urpriest]

It is, but we also have a samuri, knight, and warmage who also outshine me, but it might be because they're half dragons and drow and I'm an elf. I'm starting a new campaign soon though, which is what this is for.

And I'd like to play as close to a ranger as possible without multiclassing. I'm looking at scout right now, can someone give me some feed back on this class?

Why without multiclassing, just curious? And does that include Prestige Classes? The Scout is better than the Ranger at a few things, but worse at others. They're both Tier 4, if you want to use that system to describe them.

Did your ranger do archery or two-weapon fighting?


Half-dragons are horrible unless they're large size or have houserules for their breath weapon or LA. Drow also aren't worth +2 LA.

None of them have LA. Much like the Sword Archon, which also doesn't count its RHD in its ECL. Their DM is...challenged.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Their DM is...challenged.

Then he needs to be gently nudged into looking on the forums. And if that doesn't work, pushed really hard into looking on the forums.

[Greenish]

something with an impressive attack roll as a Totemist. (Werebear grapple-based Totemist, perhaps?) The don't carry much of a nature-based theme, though.Totemist is pretty nature-themed.

[Big Fau]

Then he needs to be gently nudged into looking on the forums. And if that doesn't work, pushed really hard into looking on the forums.

Or beaten with PHBs.

[hobbitkniver]

I'd like something that works from the get-go. I expect to be under level 5 for a very long time, and multiclassing is boring when it takes 10 levels to work correctly. I'm basically up to being two weapon fighting or archery. I don't like shapeshifting because I feel it just detracts from my customization of equipment and character roleplaying.

[Amphetryon]

I'd like something that works from the get-go. I expect to be under level 5 for a very long time, and multiclassing is boring when it takes 10 levels to work correctly. I'm basically up to being two weapon fighting or archery. I don't like shapeshifting because I feel it just detracts from my customization of equipment and character roleplaying.

Is all LA just handwaved in this game, or is there a specific LA allowance, or what's the deal? Everyone else seems more powerful right now because they have characters whose races are considered powerful enough not to get class levels until 3rd level or beyond.

If we can get a better understanding of the rules in effect in your game, we can provide more cogent advice.

[sonofzeal]

I'd like something that works from the get-go. I expect to be under level 5 for a very long time, and multiclassing is boring when it takes 10 levels to work correctly. I'm basically up to being two weapon fighting or archery. I don't like shapeshifting because I feel it just detracts from my customization of equipment and character roleplaying.
TWF is a very weak combat style in general, you're far better off with a single big weapon in most situations. There's a few exceptions, generally where you have a large source of bonus damage like a rogue's sneak attack, and even then it's awkward.


Out-of-the-box, for a relative newbie in a campaign that seems to have a few veterans, I'd recommend any of the Tome of Battle classes if you can get your hands on that book. With them, it really doesn't matter what weapons you use, they can all be potentially effective even in a competent group. They work very well single-classed, but multiclass fluidly if needed. And while they're extremely difficult to screw up and be too weak, they're also extremely difficult to screw up and be too strong and overshadow the others. Highly recommended if you like melee and are just getting used to some of the finer points.

[Urpriest]

Is all LA just handwaved in this game, or is there a specific LA allowance, or what's the deal? Everyone else seems more powerful right now because they have characters whose races are considered powerful enough not to get class levels until 3rd level or beyond.

If we can get a better understanding of the rules in effect in your game, we can provide more cogent advice.

As far as I remember, the game's DM "doesn't believe in" ECL. Your level is your level in PC classes, period. RHD don't count towards it, but still give hp/BAB/everything else, and LA are just ignored. The OP has previously expressed a desire to not abuse this however.

Anyway, I agree with the previous recommendations of Tome of Battle. The Swordsage can do pretty good TWF, usually Dex-based, while the Warblade can do decent Str-based TWF at higher levels. You'll mostly want Tiger Claw maneuvers, with some Shadow Hand if you're going Swordsage for the Shadow Blade feat.

[Jack_Simth]

It is, but we also have a samuri, knight, and warmage who also outshine me, but it might be because they're half dragons and drow and I'm an elf.Ah, that's what's going on. Nobody's optimized at all, however, everyone else has 2-3 levels of apparently free LA, and you don't. On the plus side, it doesn't look like anyone's above tier-3 on their builds, so if you take something that's simple to play, but tier 1 or 2, you'll do fairly well. With a good spell selection, a Favored Soul wouldn't be amiss in that group - tier-2, has the Divine spells you're lacking. However, spell selection is what makes or breaks a spontaneous caster, and it's hard to fix in-game if you get it wrong. A Cleric or Druid is tier-1, and they're handy for starting players because if/when you realize a particular spell isn't good, you can get a different one the next day... they're trickier to play, though, because they have a lot of bookkeeping. Perhaps a Spirit Shaman as halfway between?

[Vangor]

None of them have LA. Much like the Sword Archon, which also doesn't count its RHD in its ECL. Their DM is...challenged.

Uh...what ridiculousness is this? If he has a sword archon and other folks throwing out LA, shouldn't someone offer suggestions to the ranger?

Be an Aboleth Lich.

[Big Fau]

Ah, that's what's going on. Nobody's optimized at all, however, everyone else has 2-3 levels of apparently free LA, and you don't. On the plus side, it doesn't look like anyone's above tier-3 on their builds, so if you take something that's simple to play, but tier 1 or 2, you'll do fairly well. With a good spell selection, a Favored Soul wouldn't be amiss in that group - tier-2, has the Divine spells you're lacking. However, spell selection is what makes or breaks a spontaneous caster, and it's hard to fix in-game if you get it wrong. A Cleric or Druid is tier-1, and they're handy for starting players because if/when you realize a particular spell isn't good, you can get a different one the next day... they're trickier to play, though, because they have a lot of bookkeeping. Perhaps a Spirit Shaman as halfway between?

2-3 levels? More like X, where X is whatever they want. A Sword Archon is considered a playable race at whatever ECL the OP's character is.

[Darth Stabber]

If you are ignoring LA, making your character stronger is dang easy. With out even thinking to hard, I'm going to recommend Pixie. You get insane stat mods (-2str,+6dex,+6int,+4wis,+6cha), 60ft fly speed, greater invisibility at will, magic arrows you appearantly pull out of your butt, spell resistance=14+hit dice, several spell like abilities of varying levels of usefullness, and some other stuff I can't remember right now, with no racial hit dice (4la). And with those statmods you are good at anything you want to be (except ubercharging, but come on, your a small faerie). Rogue, cleric, wizard, factotum, beguiler, warlock, or whatever other non-fighter type you can think of.

There are significantly more busted things you could play, but that's just a baseline to go off of, I'm sure if I had access to my books I could give you more to go off of (maybe paragon template{16LA no hitdice} if you want to really abuse this, teach your obviously crazy GM a lesson).

[MeeposFire]

Actually due to the fact that ubercharging is more based on your power attack mods than str or weapon die I bet you could make a pixie ubercharger that could still one shot most everything in the book.

[Benly]

If you want a strong LA-fudging race but still want to be "elfy", you could be a firre eladrin (which looks like an elf with flaming hair).

If you want to be ultra-elfy and also a bad person, you could go for a leShay (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/leshay.htm).

[Eldan]

Yeah, if your DM just ignores ECL... be a stronger race. Ranger is a perfectly fine class, but of course can't hold up against a sword archon. For a TWF ranger, you want dex or strength. A giant, maybe?

Want to win at everything? Be a Black Ethergaunt. You get something like +20 intelligence and 17 levels of wizard for free. (Don't do this).

[Prime32]

Be a half-celestial paragon pseudonatural tarrasque, which is apparently an lv1 character? :smallconfused:

[Godskook]

Ranger isn't useless, it's Tier 4 (Capable of contributing to certain situations, but is a one-trick-pony).


And Scout+Ranger=Swift Hunter, a Tier 3 build (basically where you want to be Tier-wise).

Swift Hunter is *NOT* tier 3.

[Darth Stabber]

Be a half-celestial paragon pseudonatural tarrasque, which is apparently an lv1 character? :smallconfused:

No they said racial hit dice still count, and big T has like 50.

[Urpriest]

No they said racial hit dice still count, and big T has like 50.

No, racial hit dice still give hp, BAB, etc., but don't contribute to ECL. The Sword Archon does actually have 80 or so hp at 3rd level according to the OP's post on a previous thread. Their DM really is that naive.

[sonofzeal]

I'd play the LeShay (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/leshay.htm), and then deliberately botch all your rolls. Do it for fun, rather than for power. See how long it takes until someone figures it out.

You: "Okay, I attack the ettin for... 14, do I hit?"
DM: "No. He swings back for 24, does that hit you?"
You: "Sure."
DM: "That's two hits for 31 damage then. BTW, how much do you have left?"
You: "823"
DM: "............."
You: "Oh, and it should make a DC 53 Will save vs Charm Monster for meeting my gaze, but I'll say I had my eyes closed."

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'd play the LeShay (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/leshay.htm), and then deliberately botch all your rolls. Do it for fun, rather than for power. See how long it takes until someone figures it out.

You: "Okay, I attack the ettin for... 14, do I hit?"
DM: "No. He swings back for 24, does that hit you?"
You: "Sure."
DM: "That's two hits for 31 damage then. BTW, how much do you have left?"
You: "823"
DM: "............."
You: "Oh, and it should make a DC 53 Will save vs Charm Monster for meeting my gaze, but I'll say I had my eyes closed."

No, play an elder titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm), that thing is downright scary. Colossal, huge attack and grapple bonuses, and 1015 hit points! :smalleek::smallbiggrin:

[Geigan]

Or just about anything with the paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) or pseudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm)templates really.

[Hirax]

I'd take this opportunity to play a mind flayer, personally. Brainsssss!

[sonofzeal]

No, play an elder titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm), that thing is downright scary. Colossal, huge attack and grapple bonuses, and 1015 hit points! :smalleek::smallbiggrin:
The advantage of the LeShay is that it's functionally an elf in appearance, making it slip naturally into play until you think it's most humorous to tip the hand. An Elder Titan by contrast, well, the first doorway you try to go through might raise objections. Very, very brief objections.

[Jack_Simth]

The advantage of the LeShay is that it's functionally an elf in appearance, making it slip naturally into play until you think it's most humorous to tip the hand. An Elder Titan by contrast, well, the first doorway you try to go through might raise objections. Very, very brief objections.
The Elder Titan comes with Change Shape, so he'd still be good - and retain his ability scores....

[Amphetryon]

While the epic monster suggestions are fun, the OP's (apparently) stated desire not to outright abuse the free LA/RHD tells me something like a Minotaur, with 6 RHD and LA +2, might be more to his preference, while bringing him closer to 'par' with the group.

[Divide by Zero]

If you're going to go all-out like that, may as well play Atropus. Not the aspect, the moonlet itself.

[sonofzeal]

While the epic monster suggestions are fun, the OP's (apparently) stated desire not to outright abuse the free LA/RHD tells me something like a Minotaur, with 6 RHD and LA +2, might be more to his preference, while bringing him closer to 'par' with the group.
Naw, even that I'd avoid if playing seriously. Either go all out for LeShay or Elder Titan and then deliberately botch your rolls as long as it's humorous, or play some low-op race. Gnoll, or Druegar, or Svirfneblin, something like that. Even Minotaur's pushing it, since he'd vastly outshine the Drow and Halfdragon. Don't stoop to the Sword Archon's game, that's never going to end well.

[Doug Lampert]

Or just about anything with the paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) or pseudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm)templates really.

Apply Paragon to LShay

[tyckspoon]

Mystic Ranger + the Sword of the Arcane Order feat (lets you learn Wizard spells in addition to your native spell list) actually makes for a pretty decent Psiwar-type gish.

Since I don't think anybody has really answered it yet: Scout starts off stronger than Ranger, IMO, falls off later on thanks to fundamental design errors (ie, its means of bonus damage requires movement, which precludes full-attacking with it unless you optimize around that, and is also Precision damage with all the restrictions and immunities that carries), while Ranger really picks up in the later part of its progression with spell access. If you're absolutely insistent on single-classing, I would stick with Ranger unless you don't have plans to level much at all.

The two do combine wonderfully, tho, especially since they printed the Swift Hunter feat to make it work- stacks your Ranger and Scout levels for Skirmish progression, and the really neat thing is it makes your Skirmish work against your Favored Enemies even if they're otherwise immune to precision damage.

[ericgrau]

In combat a fighter tends to trump the ranger. You could get all the same feats and more. Most players and even most DMs don't handle skills very well, so rangers and rogues should be avoided unless you really want one for some reason. Or if the party begs you for trapfinding or tracking or etc. you take only a single level or you get a feat. The scout is almost like the ranger and rogue put together, and probably a step in the wrong direction unless you make one of the complicated builds suggested so far. Even then it's a whole lot of trouble just to be ok.

It would help if you said exactly what you want to do and then everyone will suggest even more builds. If you want to be an archer then a fighter is the simplest way to go. Get arrows of all 3 metal types, and at high levels get bane arrows too. Plus lesser bracers of archery, boots of speed, the fighter tree feats and some archery feats. If you want two weapon fighting it's probably too complicated for a new player to do it well, but you can do it okay as a barbarian. Possibly combined with two levels of ranger for the feat and for favored enemy.

[squeekenator]

Why is everyone telling him to be a leShay or something boring like that? He's been given a blank cheque to do whatever the hell he wants, this calls for some serious shenanigans. Here's my suggestion: play a half-dragon genius loci. Your character can literally be both a dungeon AND a dragon.

[hangedman1984]

if at all possible, find a new dm. seriously, ignoring LA, and giving racial hd with out it factoring into ECL is going to do nothing but cause massive disparity in power levels.

[NecroRick]

if at all possible, find a new dm. seriously, ignoring LA, and giving racial hd with out it factoring into ECL is going to do nothing but cause massive disparity in power levels.

but does the disparity in power levels really matter?

To answer that you have to figure out what really matters (to you).
If the important thing is to have fun, eat pretzels, hang out with your buds and roll some d6... then no, the ridiculous disparity doesn't matter.
On the other hand, if you're secretly a power gamer, then it will bug the crap out of you.

It may be gross hubris on my part, but I honestly believe I could play in and still have fun in a campaign where I was half the level of the other PCs. After all, if nothing else I can provide the comic relief...

[Luckmann]

What about an Illithid Half-Dragon Half-Fiend. Go Swift Hunter build. Now there's something I wouldn't want to see running around the woods. :smallcool:


[...]

It may be gross hubris on my part, but I honestly believe I could play in and still have fun in a campaign where I was half the level of the other PCs. After all, if nothing else I can provide the comic relief...I don't believe you could. I think it would be fun for about two sessions before you realized that you're just not contributing anything substantial. Of course, if you could and I am wrong, you are a far better man than I am or will ever be. :smalltongue: Which means that I'm going to have to kill you and hide the corpse.


Why is everyone telling him to be a leShay or something boring like that? He's been given a blank cheque to do whatever the hell he wants, this calls for some serious shenanigans. Here's my suggestion: play a half-dragon genius loci. Your character can literally be both a dungeon AND a dragon.Oh god, my sides. :smallbiggrin: This pony's a genius!

[The Dark Fiddler]

It may be gross hubris on my part, but I honestly believe I could play in and still have fun in a campaign where I was half the level of the other PCs. After all, if nothing else I can provide the comic relief...

That's nice, but you're not the OP. I've been in a similar, but less extreme position, and I can say that I had no fun after the first session or so.

Of course, the fact that he wants help on his next character and isn't running for the hills implies that he's having at least enough fun to stay with the group, so...

[Amphetryon]

but does the disparity in power levels really matter?

To answer that you have to figure out what really matters (to you).
If the important thing is to have fun, eat pretzels, hang out with your buds and roll some d6... then no, the ridiculous disparity doesn't matter.
On the other hand, if you're secretly a power gamer, then it will bug the crap out of you.

1. From commentary, I believe the game is online. That makes the likelihood of being in it to 'eat pretzels and hang out with your buds' somewhat lessened. Corrected my misunderstanding.

2. The OP has already indicated the power disparity bugs him. That doesn't actually make him a power gamer. Wanting your character to do what it says on the tin is not usually considered a benchmark for power gaming.

[shadow_archmagi]

That is the board as a wholes preferred balance point; teaching others to use it is necessary propaganda!

I prefer Tier 2, personally

[Luckmann]

I prefer Tier 2, personally

I favor Tier -3.

[Amnestic]

I favor Tier -3.

Is that the one where Bizarro World Truenamer hangs out?

[hobbitkniver]

but does the disparity in power levels really matter?

To answer that you have to figure out what really matters (to you).
If the important thing is to have fun, eat pretzels, hang out with your buds and roll some d6... then no, the ridiculous disparity doesn't matter.
On the other hand, if you're secretly a power gamer, then it will bug the crap out of you.

It may be gross hubris on my part, but I honestly believe I could play in and still have fun in a campaign where I was half the level of the other PCs. After all, if nothing else I can provide the comic relief...

I'm having fun, but the DM gets into a huge argument with the players every turn and he always tries to get us to randolmy betray eachother.

We came across mermaids in a pool. The sword archon goes down because he doesn't breathe. The DM passes him a note that he shows us later saying "The mermaids take you to their lost city of Atlantis make you their king because you're the only surface person they've ever seen. They convince you to fight against your group". No save. No choice. But the archon decided to betray hig group of mermaids. There's no way we could have taken that many and the archon, so I have no idea what the DM was thinking he was trying to do and I can't confront him about it because the note wasn't suppose to be shown to me.

And I am trying to start a new game with one of the current PC's DMing.

[Analytica]

This game doesn't seem fun at all. :smalleek:

Back to the topic though - I always felt a druid fluffed as a ranger might be fun. Then there is that sublime way archer ranger homebrew.

In this group though... one of the high-powered eladrins, then ranger? It's kind of a super elf from the eternal forests of chaotic good-y forest-y chaos.

[Ursus the Grim]

And I am trying to start a new game with one of the current PC's DMing.

If you want to go twf, I am seriously going to emphasis Tiger Claw Swordsage from Tome of Battle as was suggested earlier in the thread. Martial adepts can be difficult to understand at first, but they're really fun to play.

In regards to the quote, my question is "do the other players realize what BS this is?" It sounds like they aren't trying to screw you over, just to use what the DM has given them and wreak havoc with his campaign. Is this PC player planning to do a better job?

[hobbitkniver]

If you want to go twf, I am seriously going to emphasis Tiger Claw Swordsage from Tome of Battle as was suggested earlier in the thread. Martial adepts can be difficult to understand at first, but they're really fun to play.

In regards to the quote, my question is "do the other players realize what BS this is?" It sounds like they aren't trying to screw you over, just to use what the DM has given them and wreak havoc with his campaign. Is this PC player planning to do a better job?

Well, I've talked to them plenty of times about it and they suggest I roll up a new character with more LA. They aren't trying to be better than me, just intentionally exploiting the DM's stupidity.

[hangedman1984]

but does the disparity in power levels really matter?

To answer that you have to figure out what really matters (to you).
If the important thing is to have fun, eat pretzels, hang out with your buds and roll some d6... then no, the ridiculous disparity doesn't matter.
On the other hand, if you're secretly a power gamer, then it will bug the crap out of you.

It may be gross hubris on my part, but I honestly believe I could play in and still have fun in a campaign where I was half the level of the other PCs. After all, if nothing else I can provide the comic relief...

i take offense to this, wanting to have an effective character in a balanced party does NOT make one a powergamer

[Seerow]

i take offense to this, wanting to have an effective character in a balanced party does NOT make one a powergamer

Wrong sir! Wrong! If you want to contribute meaningfully to your group, you are clearly a power gamer. True roleplayers don't care about combat, much less combat effectiveness. After all, what kind of role play comes from there? Why would a true roleplayer care about being useless in a fight?

I think that you sir, are a powergamer in denial. Clearly you don't understand the concept of roleplaying like the true roleplayers do. You are more what I like to call a rollplayer because the rolls determine your play. Of course... this isn't a bad way to game, and I respect your choice to powergame. It's just not roleplaying. Don't shoot me, it's all tongue in cheek

[Luckmann]

Wrong sir! Wrong! If you want to contribute meaningfully to your group, you are clearly a power gamer. True roleplayers don't care about combat, much less combat effectiveness. After all, what kind of role play comes from there? Why would a true roleplayer care about being useless in a fight?

I think that you sir, are a powergamer in denial. Clearly you don't understand the concept of roleplaying like the true roleplayers do. You are more what I like to call a rollplayer because the rolls determine your play. Of course... this isn't a bad way to game, and I respect your choice to powergame. It's just not roleplaying.Sarcasm, Will Robinson! Sarcasm!

:smallbiggrin:


I'm having fun, but the DM gets into a huge argument with the players every turn and he always tries to get us to randolmy betray eachother.

We came across mermaids in a pool. The sword archon goes down because he doesn't breathe. The DM passes him a note that he shows us later saying "The mermaids take you to their lost city of Atlantis make you their king because you're the only surface person they've ever seen. They convince you to fight against your group". No save. No choice. But the archon decided to betray hig group of mermaids. There's no way we could have taken that many and the archon, so I have no idea what the DM was thinking he was trying to do and I can't confront him about it because the note wasn't suppose to be shown to me.

And I am trying to start a new game with one of the current PC's DMing.It's the classic double-backstab switcharoo turncoat maneuver. Makes perfect sense!

Run. Run from this game and NEVER look back!

[Eldariel]

Wrong sir! Wrong! If you want to contribute meaningfully to your group, you are clearly a power gamer. True roleplayers don't care about combat, much less combat effectiveness. After all, what kind of role play comes from there? Why would a true roleplayer care about being useless in a fight?

I think that you sir, are a powergamer in denial. Clearly you don't understand the concept of roleplaying like the true roleplayers do. You are more what I like to call a rollplayer because the rolls determine your play. Of course... this isn't a bad way to game, and I respect your choice to powergame. It's just not roleplaying.

+1. This is why you are awesome. Though you could've certainly extrapolated on how true roleplaying can only be achieved through intentionally gimping your character and ensuring you can't contribute in combat for all that detracts from your roleplaying focus. Indeed, if your character sheet is more than a blank slate and your background story doesn't dwarf Lord of the Rings, you are The Devil, rollplayer munchkin himself!

[EarFall]

I'm having fun, but the DM gets into a huge argument with the players every turn and he always tries to get us to randolmy betray eachother.

We came across mermaids in a pool. The sword archon goes down because he doesn't breathe. The DM passes him a note that he shows us later saying "The mermaids take you to their lost city of Atlantis make you their king because you're the only surface person they've ever seen. They convince you to fight against your group". No save. No choice. But the archon decided to betray hig group of mermaids. There's no way we could have taken that many and the archon, so I have no idea what the DM was thinking he was trying to do and I can't confront him about it because the note wasn't suppose to be shown to me.

And I am trying to start a new game with one of the current PC's DMing.

That story reminds me of a time when I was feeling blue, so I stapled the moon to the sun and called it Rock-Your-Bad-Self-Candy-Blue-Jeans, except what the DM did in your case made a little less sense.

[kardar233]

Seeing as this thread is (nominally) about Rangers, I just wondered if you could stack Mystic Ranger and SotAO for big Wizard/Ranger spell lists to 4 and Wizard list at 5.

[Seerow]

Did Mystic Ranger actually ever get printed somewhere other than some dragon magazine? That's the only thing my quick google search turned up.

[Flickerdart]

Seeing as this thread is (nominally) about Rangers, I just wondered if you could stack Mystic Ranger and SotAO for big Wizard/Ranger spell lists to 4 and Wizard list at 5.
Yes you can, and it is awesome. I believe you can combine that with Wildshape Ranger to make a mini-druid.

[Eldariel]

Did Mystic Ranger actually ever get printed somewhere other than some dragon magazine? That's the only thing my quick google search turned up.

Nope. It is, however, one of the better crunchy bits coming from Dragon (not to mention, quite simple and was available at CK indexes for long) so it's quite widely known and liked.

[Seerow]

Nope. It is, however, one of the better crunchy bits coming from Dragon (not to mention, quite simple and was available at CK indexes for long) so it's quite widely known and liked.

Well it doesn't seem to be up there now (I saw a few references to it on CK, all with broken links). But it didn't even make it into dragon compendium? That's pretty sad.

[Eldariel]

Well it doesn't seem to be up there now (I saw a few references to it on CK, all with broken links). But it didn't even make it into dragon compendium? That's pretty sad.

Yeah, CK indexes got taken down due to WoTC's agenda to wipe 3.5 out of the planet's face. Right now, all you can do is acquire the Dragon or something that lists the abilities.

[Seerow]

Yeah, CK indexes got taken down due to WoTC's agenda to wipe 3.5 out of the planet's face.

I'd guess it had something more to do with copyright infringement than any evil plot on behalf of WotC to force everyone to 4e, otherwise the 3.5 srd would be long gone.


Right now, all you can do is acquire the Dragon or something that lists the abilities.

So choices are go pirating, or find a magazine that's been out of print for years. Yeah, that's one option that is out in my games (and probably 90% of other games, likely also including the OP, as I doubt he and his DM who don't understand how LA works have access to dragon magazines printed years ago)

[Starbuck_II]

Have you considered a Sharn? Sure you are a freak (to humans), but you one with style and 9 arms. Cast arcane/Divine spells spontanously innately.

[Eldariel]

I'd guess it had something more to do with copyright infringement than any evil plot on behalf of WotC to force everyone to 4e, otherwise the 3.5 srd would be long gone.

SRD is something they're compelled to allow under the OGL license; they can't do anything about that (thank god for Ryan) since they signed the agreement long ago; they can't revoke it even though they'd certainly love to. When publishing 4e, people in the charge had changed and they made an entirely new license, GSL, for 4e which also forbids creating material for 3e if a party signs it. And GSL doesn't allow listing any information but page links online. One of the biggest problems with 4e in the start, tbh. They cracked down on other 3rd party 3e sites too. They were aware of CK for years but didn't do anything about it until 4e came out. Make of that what you will *shrug*

[dspeyer]

If you want to keep up with the half-dragons, I suggest a werebear (black, not polar). The stats are similar and it's natury.

If you want to keep up with the sword archon, I suggest a young gold dragon, or a very template-stacked nymph (switching ranger to prestige ranger).

[only1doug]

Create an Ogre Mage Monk. School the GM on why RHD and ECL are relevent.

[herrhauptmann]

I'm having fun, but the DM gets into a huge argument with the players every turn and he always tries to get us to randolmy betray eachother.

We came across mermaids in a pool. The sword archon goes down because he doesn't breathe. The DM passes him a note that he shows us later saying "The mermaids take you to their lost city of Atlantis make you their king because you're the only surface person they've ever seen. They convince you to fight against your group". No save. No choice. But the archon decided to betray hig group of mermaids. There's no way we could have taken that many and the archon, so I have no idea what the DM was thinking he was trying to do and I can't confront him about it because the note wasn't suppose to be shown to me.

And I am trying to start a new game with one of the current PC's DMing.
So a tiny pool of water leads down to Atlantis? :smallconfused: And they're mermaids, regardless of their CR, just walk away from the water, suddenly they can't hit you. His campaign isn't just on rails, it's trapped in a narrow canyon with a giant monster that will eat you if you slow down or try to climb out.

The fact that he keeps arguing with the other players says to me that even they're not having much fun. (I assume they've known him longer)