Character help

[*.*.*.*]

So after scrapping my Necromancer idea(thanks to the posters in my previous thread for all their help), I came up with a new idea after purchasing Sharn: City of Towers. I want to play a noble who aspires to be the leader of the city guard.

What I want fluff wise: I want a character-class combo fit for a noble(so nothing rogue-like) and tied to a city. He must also have good social skills, definitely with sense motive/gather information and the like

What I want mechanically:I would like good melee(full BAB or near it) abilities and maybe some spellcasting. Good skills is also a must(at least 4+ int skills)

Conditions: My race is already settled on, I'll be playing Eberron's empty vessel race(refluffed). The DM absolutely hates ToB(thinks doing 100+ damage a round is unbalanced at ECL 20 :smallannoyed:) so classes would probably be frowned upon from it. All other books are fine and dandy, we are also incorporating most of pathfinder's stuff. Starting level is 6(the LA from Empty Vessel is dropped) and we will gestalt some time in the next few levels if we want to, so I need a good Setup that will work by itself and with another class quite well. A Psionic class on one side of the gestalt would be nice, but isn't required.

[Cog]

I want a character-class combo fit for a noble(so nothing rogue-like)...
I'm curious why you feel a Rogue wouldn't fit this concept. It seems to offer a lot of the things you're looking for; Sneak Attack need only be the kind of swordfight training a noble would get, learning how to end a fight quickly with a single well-placed blow to make up for the lack of day-long daily training that a soldier might go through. Particularly suited, I think, would be the feats-Rogue variant from Unearthed Arcana, which gets rid of the SA anyway, in turn for feats to suit your tactical training.

Otherwise, Swashbuckler is almost exactly what you describe. Full BAB, the requested skillpoints, and a social focus in the skill set. It doesn't have much to offer without Daring Outlaw, but you can get that without Rogue levels, and most of the usual melee feat tricks work. There's even an ACF to get a few SLAs, IIRC. Duskblade comes close, with an Int focus to make up for the 2+Int native skillpoints.

[*.*.*.*]

I'm curious why you feel a Rogue wouldn't fit this concept. It seems to offer a lot of the things you're looking for; Sneak Attack need only be the kind of swordfight training a noble would get, learning how to end a fight quickly with a single well-placed blow to make up for the lack of day-long daily training that a soldier might go through. Particularly suited, I think, would be the feats-Rogue variant from Unearthed Arcana, which gets rid of the SA anyway, in turn for feats to suit your tactical training.

Mostly due to my own prejudices I guess, rogues leave a bad taste in my mouth due to a certain member in our group. I will admit though, it could help quite as the passive side.


Otherwise, Swashbuckler is almost exactly what you describe. Full BAB, the requested skillpoints, and a social focus in the skill set. It doesn't have much to offer without Daring Outlaw, but you can get that without Rogue levels, and most of the usual melee feat tricks work. There's even an ACF to get a few SLAs, IIRC. Duskblade comes close, with an Int focus to make up for the 2+Int native skillpoints.

Swashbuckler is a class I'd like to steer away from, mostly due to it's flavor(not to mention the fact it is dreadfully boring). I personally thought of duskblade as well and was kinda my back up if I couldn't think of anything better. My first idea was a Duskblade//Factotum, but I want to keep my options open. My second idea was *Urban Druid//UA generic warrior, but neither sides could stand alone and fit my concept without the other to back it up.

*Dragon Comp version due to it's alternate AC options

[Gray Mage]

Do you think your DM would let you use ToB classes (you said it'd be frowned upon, but maybe he'd let you)? If so then maybe a bard/crusader or bard/warblade multiclass could work, if you use perform (oratory) to make inspirational speeches and the like it'd fit a noble, IMO. It'd give you some skills, a little spellcasting and lose only a little BAB.

[erikun]

Bard? Snowflake Wardance adds CHA to attack rolls, and Dragonfire Inspiration gives a big boost to attacks for everyone. Unfortunately, you can't normally attack while using bardic music. (The Song of the White Raven feat, from Tome of Battle, lets you do so while in a Warblade stance - but that won't work with your DM.)

There are a handful of good Bard prestige classes as well, the Sublime Chord being the most noteworthy (9th level spells).

Bard//Paladin can work out very well, especially if you find other prestige classes that add your Charisma modifier to other rolls. Bard//Duskblade might be able to work, although there is absolutely no synergy between ability scores. Bard//Warlock could work out, although if your DM dislikes Tome of Battle, I'd hate to see what he thinks about 9d6 ranged touch attacks at will (not to mention infinite flight and invisibility).

[Amnestic]

Bard could definitely be one side. Make your Peform (Oratory) or something like that. It doesn't have to actually be music in nature, and it handily covers the 'face' aspect of being a noble. Plus, they're just a good class :P

[Gray Mage]

Bard? Snowflake Wardance adds CHA to attack rolls, and Dragonfire Inspiration gives a big boost to attacks for everyone. Unfortunately, you can't normally attack while using bardic music. (The Song of the White Raven feat, from Tome of Battle, lets you do so while in a Warblade stance - but that won't work with your DM.)


I'm pretty sure you can attack while using bard music (IC specificaly) as long as you don't use your hands to perform, you just can't in the same round that you start the song.

[*.*.*.*]

In regards to Bard: I actually wanted to make a Folchulan Lyrist build awhile back, but never could bypass that damned evasion problem. In all respect to the bard though, I just plain don't like the class. I'm also pretty sure we may be getting one when/if the paladin of our group decides to gestalt

That reminds me: Here is our current group

Drow Noble Fighter- Intimidation focused, I may show him Zhentarim fighter in the future
Drow Noble Paladin- Pretty standard stuff here, Pathfinder Paladin is crazy good
Drow Noble Sorc- Picked draconic bloodline, he plays blasty and shoots a bow when that isn't appropriate
Weird Race combo Gunslinger- She is my IRL wife and is pretty inexperienced at the game


Do you think your DM would let you use ToB classes

Possibly, but I would like a backup in case he doesn't. In fact, I humored a Crusader//Swordsage gestalt before I realized how ridiculously MAD it was

[Heatwizard]

Marshal throws out passive buffs based off Cha, which might sit well with a city guard sort of role.

[erikun]

Well, a Psion (Telepath) has the skills you are looking for, but isn't any good in melee unless you want something like Psion/Slayer. The Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) class has the skills as well and better combat mechanics, but I'm not sure how much you are against the rogue idea. Wilder has CHA-synergy and a better BAB, but doesn't make use of any skills you are interested in besides Bluff.

I'm not sure what to put on the other side of the gestalt, though. Duskblade is definitely an option, as it generates full BAB and INT-synergy. The psionics aren't bothered by the heavy armor either, and Psion//Duskblade would mean you could ignore the Slayer PrC. It could work as just as Psion early on, being more "person-focused" and later turning martial.

[Luckmann]

I'm with Amnestic on this. I realize that you wanted something with full or near-full BAB, but if you refluff a Bard, you can easily roleplay that instead of playing music or singing or whatever the hell bards do, you're shouting orders or being generally Noble-y.

Edit: Dammit, I'm blind. I managed to completely skim past your reply on the idea of bard. Sorry about that.

But what do you mean "if he decides to Gestalt"? Wouldn't it be horribly unbalanced if he was Gestalt and no-one else? Especially since Paladins in Pathfinder are more than capable of handling themselves.

Edit 2: Godammit! I need to stop rolling those natural 1's on reading comprehension! :smallfurious:

[*.*.*.*]

But what do you mean "if he decides to Gestalt"? Wouldn't it be horribly unbalanced if he was Gestalt and no-one else? Especially since Paladins in Pathfinder are more than capable of handling themselves.

The DM is offering either "huge" stat boosts or "super powers"(don't ask) to those who don't want to gestalt.

[Tvtyrant]

Good skills, full BaB and some casting? Urban Ranger has a lot of what you want; take a bird animal companion and you have an instant spy. You could also move into wildshape ranger to shift yourself, and be able to control society more easily. There are some other ACFs you can take that would make you really strong.

What alignment are you going for?

[*.*.*.*]

Good skills, full BaB and some casting? Urban Ranger has a lot of what you want; take a bird animal companion and you have an instant spy. You could also move into wildshape ranger to shift yourself, and be able to control society more easily. There are some other ACFs you can take that would make you really strong.

What alignment are you going for?

Ranger was a class that instantly hit my head when I considered this character, but I prefer duskblade so much more.

My alignment will be Lawful Neutral

[Tvtyrant]

Ranger was a class that instantly hit my head when I considered this character, but I prefer duskblade so much more.

My alignment will be Lawful Neutral

Curse you! You make this so difficult! Why can't you be a human, or at least neutral good?? Then you could be a Chameleon or Lion of Talsid!

[*.*.*.*]

Curse you! You make this so difficult! Why can't you be a human, or at least neutral good?? Then you could be a Chameleon or Lion of Talsid!

:smallwink: If it was easy, I wouldn't need help from you guys :smalltongue:

[Cornelius Grim]

Bard/Paladin can work out very well

That'd work, except Bards can't be lawful, and Paladins have to be lawful. It was a good idea though. :smallfrown: Duskblade might be a good choice, but I haven't read over the class in a while; if I am correct, I believe they do not get very many skillpoints, and I am also not sure if they are socially advanced. They do however, have the noble appearance and the spellcasting qualities you are looking for.

[*.*.*.*]

I forgot to include two houserules in the OP about gestalt: PrCs on both sides is fine and so are Theurge types

[NNescio]

That'd work, except Bards can't be lawful, and Paladins have to be lawful. It was a good idea though. :smallfrown: Duskblade might be a good choice, but I haven't read over the class in a while; if I am correct, I believe they do not get very many skillpoints, and I am also not sure if they are socially advanced. They do however, have the noble appearance and the spellcasting qualities you are looking for.

Bards don't lose class features for turning Lawful. 'though they can't progress further in Bard if they are.

[Amnestic]

That'd work, except Bards can't be lawful, and Paladins have to be lawful. It was a good idea though. :smallfrown:

You can take your Paladin levels and then switch your alignment and never look back as you take your Bard levels. Paladins don't lose their abilities if you're not Lawful anymore. Least I'm pretty sure that's how it goes.

[erikun]

Paladins do loose their abilities if they switch alignment, but I was thinking of the Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny)//Bard anyways. Sorry that I forgot to mention it.

[Luckmann]

Since we are talking about Gestalt Paladin/Bard, one would presume that he would have to take his Bard and Paladins levels at the same time.

Also, alignment shenanigans like that only work in badly designed PC games where there's no DM to call you a nit for horrible roleplaying. :smallamused:

Also, yes, by RAW (at least in PF) a Paladin must maintain a Lawful Good alignment, or lose all class features except Proficiencies:


A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see atonement), as appropriate.
Of course, as always, there's any variety of houserules. I would personally have no problem with a Lawful Bard.

Since we are talking PF here (or at least I assume so, since you mentioned the Paladin being PF) with the potential for Gestalt, might I suggest a Bard/Cavalier? A Bard/Inquisitor could also be pretty fun. Of course, I haven't crunched this, I'm just throwing it out there. You'd suffer some MAD in either case.

A Cavalier/Inquisitor Gestalt could be cool for some real "Kick-down-your-door-and-call-your-mother-a-skank" old-school old testament holy justice, while barking commands at your lessers. That'll teach them to be of bad breeding. Bloody peasant.

You also mentioned that you're allowed to take PrC's for both classes. Could be interesting to build a Arcane Trickster/Arcane Archer Gestalt out of a Hexcrafter Magus/Sniper Rogue. Of course, this may not apply to you since you wanted melee, but it's what I'd do, if only to realize a character concept.

Cavalier/Magus could actually be a pretty nice Paladin-like Gestalt, but with arcane magic. Order of the Lion Cavalier/Spellblade Magus, maybe?

By now I'm pretty much just throwing ideas out there.

Edit: Scratch that. Just go with a regular Magus. Spellblade sounded nicer than it was.

[Amnestic]

My bad. Will teach me to post when I'm half asleep :smalltongue:

[Cog]

Ranger was a class that instantly hit my head when I considered this character, but I prefer duskblade so much more.
If you want a Ranger with more of an arcane/urban feel, load up on ACFs. Urban Ranger, Trapfinding, and Sword of the Arcane Order, something to trade out the companion (or get an Urban Companion instead), and you lose basically all your nature abilities.

[*.*.*.*]

If you want a Ranger with more of an arcane/urban feel, load up on ACFs. Urban Ranger, Trapfinding, and Sword of the Arcane Order, something to trade out the companion (or get an Urban Companion instead), and you lose basically all your nature abilities.

This sounds pretty interesting, but too many ACFs may make my DM a bit sketchy

[Luckmann]

This sounds pretty interesting, but too many ACFs may make my DM a bit sketchyPathfinder explicitly allows multiple Archetypes as long as they do not replace the same base class features.

A Urban Ranger/Trapper Ranger is entirely doable, for example. It's something to keep in mind.

Also, I updated my previous post with some suggestions. I'm hot on the editing button today.

[Cog]

This sounds pretty interesting, but too many ACFs may make my DM a bit sketchy
You don't have to do all of them. Sword of the Arcane Order is the biggest, and that one's actually a feat anyway. Track is fair for a noble, what with hunting and all that, so doing something with the companion is probably the most relevant one.

[kenjigoku]

I forgot to include two houserules in the OP about gestalt: PrCs on both sides is fine and so are Theurge types

Sorry I read this and said to myself "And he won't let you use TOB"...

Anyways form what you want Bard//Paladin is always fun. Unless you don't want to be LG.

But I would petition use of TOB :P, especially based on the quoted information.

[Luckmann]

Sorry I read this and said to myself "And he won't let you use TOB"...

Anyways form what you want Bard//Paladin is always fun. Unless you don't want to be LG.

But I would petition use of TOB :P, especially based on the quoted information.Oh thank god, I'm not the only one failing my reading rolls today.

:smalltongue:

[*.*.*.*]

A Cavalier/Inquisitor Gestalt could be cool for some real "Kick-down-your-door-and-call-your-mother-a-skank" old-school old testament holy justice, while barking commands at your lessers. That'll teach them to be of bad breeding. Bloody peasant.

I like this idea! Having a poor reflex save is a bum, but I really like the flavor! Thanks for the idea~:smallcool:


Sorry I read this and said to myself "And he won't let you use TOB"...

Anyways form what you want Bard//Paladin is always fun. Unless you don't want to be LG.

But I would petition use of TOB :P, especially based on the quoted information.

Lets assume I can use TOB, what kind of builds would you suggest?

[kenjigoku]

If you don't mind LG

Left Side:
Paladin Until you get the save bonus (just because its awesome)
Factotum For Inspiration Points (Mostly you want to get to level 8 for a free standard action :))

Right Side:
Straight Warblade straight up.
Do Diamond Mind defensive abilities, and strikes with White Raven offensive charges.

Stat Priority in Order
CHA = INT > STR (at least 12) > CON (at least 14) > DEX (At least 10) > WIS (DUMP)

End Result:
Proficient with All Simple and Martial Weapons
Proficient with All Armors and Shields (not tower)
All skills are class skills
D12 HD for all Levels
Full Scaling Base Attack Bonus for All Levels
You get an Effective Fighter Level for Feats
Immunity to Fear
Immunity to Disease
Lay on Hands
Warblade Diamond Mind has an ability that lets you use concentration in place of WILL saves so you don't need WIS.

------


Progression

1 Warblade//1 Factotum
2 Warblade//1 Factotum:1 Paladin
3 Warblade//1 Factotum:2 Paladin
4 Warblade//1 Factotum:3 Paladin
Rest Warblade//Factotum (at least to Factotum 8 for Extra Standard Action)

may have more highlights but its late I will edit the post later.

[*.*.*.*]

If you don't mind LG

I do and we already have a Paladin, I'd rather not have any levels of it grace my character

[Rei_Jin]

If your DM is allowing theurge prestige classes and prestige classes on both sides... man, the things you could do. I'll avoid some of the amusing options and give you a fun one.

Consider making a Duskblade 20//Hexblade 4/Monk 4/Bard 10/Lion Spirit Barbarian 2, and grab the Ascetic Mage and Snowflake Wardance feats.

You'd have Mettle, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Charisma to saves Vs Spells, Charisma to AC when unarmoured, and Charisma to attack. Throw in a pair of Slippers of Battledancing, and if you move at least 10 feet you get your Charisma to attack AND damage.

Throw in with that a Sparring Dummy of the Master from the Arms & Equipment guide, and you can make a 10ft adjustment in place of a 5ft adjustment.

[*.*.*.*]

I'll avoid some of the amusing options

I enjoy amusing options :smallwink:

[Greenish]

You like duskblades, eh? Have you considered combining one with a feat rogue? You'd have excellent skill list, fighter feats and full BAB to represent a solid melee threat, all good saves and nice casting.

[Rei_Jin]

Amusing options? Well, there's so many of them, and it depends on how you define amusing. There's amusing in "I have four tier one classes all progressed together", amusing in "I built something that normally would be horribly ineffective, but it's not" and amusing in "I can't believe you made that"

Before I go ahead, I'd like to ask what books/systems are not allowed, and beyond your character concept, do you have any limitations you wish to impose on your character?

[*.*.*.*]

Before I go ahead, I'd like to ask what books/systems are not allowed, and beyond your character concept, do you have any limitations you wish to impose on your character?
Limitations? No evil, that's more or less all my DM said. I actually asked him about TOB and he apparently doesn't have a problem if I use it:smallcool:

[Rei_Jin]

You said you wanted good social skills, preferably some Psionics, good combat ability, and no evil.

If you took a Savage Bard (Unearthed Arcana Variant) on one side of your build, and a Psion on the other side (Telepath maybe, it would be my pick for a noble type PC) you would have all good saves, 6+Int Mod Skills per level, Bardic Spells AND Psionic Powers.

From there, you can take any kind of optimisation path on BOTH side of the build. One option is this...

Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8
AND
Psion (Telepath) 5/Diamond Dragon 10/Psion (Telepath) 5

Throw in with that the following feats...

Dragontouched
Draconic Heritage: Emerald Dragon
Dragonfire Inspiration
Lingering Song

Aaaand whatever other feats you like. Remember that you can use Dragonfire Inspiration to add damage to your allies weapons, and then stop singing, knowing it will last for 10 rounds once you stop. Then, start up another Inspire Courage, to add a bonus to attack and damage.

It's a very flavourful build which gives you a LOT of power and options. Oh, and you'd be Chaotic Neutral, so you're not tied in to having to do anything.

EDIT: With the Frightful Presence ability of the Diamond Dragon, you could look at throwing in some fear type abilities (Daunting Presence as a feat comes to mind, using Intimidate in combat, etc).

[*.*.*.*]

My one problem, other than the fact I've repeatedly asked for 'No Bards', is the fact that good(or at least close to) BAB isn't maintained. Also, why diamond dragon instead of staples like thrallherd? (I'm away from book right now, so I have no idea what that PrC offers)

[Rei_Jin]

Oh, sorry... no bards. It makes things a little hard to go with high social skill characters if you don't like bards or rogues.

Maybe a Beguiler//Duskblade? You'd have a full BAB, all the skills you need, and a wide selection of spells.

I've seen the suggestion before of going Duskblade/Enlightened Fist so that you can channel a Disintigrate with your weapon and hit every single opponent with it. Normally a Duskblade can't do that, cos it's a ranged attack, not a touch attack, but with the level 7 ability of the Enlightened Fist, you can actually turn a ray attack into a touch attack.

Maybe a Monk 4/Beguiler 6/Enlightened Fist 10//Duskblade 20? You'd have full BAB, good options on your skills, a decent level of skill points, and devastating combat ability (for a non ToB build)

EDIT: You'd definitely be able to qualify for Ascetic Mage with that build, which would help reduce your MAD somewhat.

[only1doug]

Mostly due to my own prejudices I guess, rogues leave a bad taste in my mouth due to a certain member in our group. I will admit though, it could help quite as the passive side.


Swashbuckler is a class I'd like to steer away from, mostly due to it's flavor(not to mention the fact it is dreadfully boring). I personally thought of duskblade as well and was kinda my back up if I couldn't think of anything better. My first idea was a Duskblade//Factotum, but I want to keep my options open. My second idea was *Urban Druid//UA generic warrior, but neither sides could stand alone and fit my concept without the other to back it up.

*Dragon Comp version due to it's alternate AC options

As soon as I read the first line of your first post I thought Duskblade (nice to see it confirmed later)...

Gestalt Combos:
Duskblade // Wizard (buff before donning armour + either somatic component free spells or still spell feat) (not enough skill points)

Duskblade // rogue (but you don't like rogue)

Duskblade // Monk (already suggested by others) (carmadine monk feat: change wis focused class abilities to Int focus)

Duskblade // Scout (gives some rogueish abilities with a slightly different flavour)

Duskblade // cleric (adds to MAD but no armour issues with casting) (not enough skill points)