Demilich: Is it Cheesy?

[Darklady2831]

So I'm applying for an Epic Gestalt campaign, and I'm thinking of being a Demilich, however, I'm wondering if the DemiLich template is CHEESE full...
Immunity to magic and +HD to attacks and AC... for +10 LA, I'd almost feel bad about taking it...

[Curmudgeon]

So I'm applying for an Epic Gestalt campaign
That's as far as you needed to go: you're fully lactose tolerant. :smallwink:

[Urpriest]

So I'm applying for an Epic Gestalt campaign, and I'm thinking of being a Demilich, however, I'm wondering if the DemiLich template is CHEESE full...
Immunity to magic and +HD to attacks and AC... for +10 LA, I'd almost feel bad about taking it...

Where are you getting that +10 number?

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

You have the wrong LA. :smallsigh:

Pros take the template pre-epic. I have a build that can d

[Darklady2831]

The ECL of the 21st level Human Demilich is 35, +4 for Lich, +10 for Demilich.

Edit: Wait... its 29... so its just a +4 LA...

[The-Mage-King]

You have the wrong LA. :smallsigh:

Pros take the template pre-epic. I have a build that can d

Damnit. He didn't even say Candle Jack in that senten

[NineThePuma]

Damnit. He didn't even say -snip- in that senten

He has yet to finish his post with a completed thought.

[The-Mage-King]

He has yet to finish a post with a completed thought.

FTFY.


I've noticed PlzBreakMyCmpAn seems say Candle Jack a lot while hes posting.


Anyway, on the topic.


NO. It is not cheesy.

And, well, Epic Gestalt already is fine aged Limburger already. That cannot break it any more than

[Urpriest]

The ECL of the 21st level Human Demilich is 35, +4 for Lich, +10 for Demilich.

Edit: Wait... its 29... so its just a +4 LA...

No, neither is true, and again, I must ask where you're getting the number from. The ELH lists ECL 33, and the 3.5 update doesn't give a new ECL/LA. Since that table in the ELH lists Int - Ruin Swarms as having an LA, I think it can be taken with a grain of salt anyway.

[Divide by Zero]

Playing Epic at all is pretty much giving up any semblance of balance. Gestalt is just icing on the cheesecake. At that point, I doubt anything short of Pun-Pun is going to break the game any more than it already is.

[ericgrau]

No, neither is true, and again, I must ask where you're getting the number from. The ELH lists ECL 33, and the 3.5 update doesn't give a new ECL/LA. Since that table in the ELH lists Int - Ruin Swarms as having an LA, I think it can be taken with a grain of salt anyway.
The SRD says 29. IIRC for NPCs CR = ECL, and the sample demilich is an NPC.

I'm normally not one to agree on such things but ya epic is pretty nuts. The best the OP can do is try to get his PC in the same ballpark as everyone else.


So I'm applying for an Epic Gestalt campaign, and I'm thinking of being a Demilich, however, I'm wondering if the DemiLich template is CHEESE full...
Immunity to magic and +HD to attacks and AC... for +10 LA, I'd almost feel bad about taking it...
And an effective way to heal himself in spite of the magic immunity, massive AC boost, wear armor without spell failure, fly ridiculously fast, and the ability to make sure your foes stay dead. At the cost of a lot less epicness in your casting: 4 LA on top of the 4 LA you already painfully took as a lich caster. Hmm, sure, seems fair enough, or at least in the right ballpark.

[Urpriest]

The SRD says 29. IIRC for NPCs CR = ECL, and the sample demilich is an NPC.

That is only true for Pathfinder. It has never been true for 3.5.

[ericgrau]

It's been that way in 3.5 too.


Monsters And Class Levels
...
Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level
To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. The monster is considered to have experience points equal to the minimum needed to be a character of its ECL.

If you choose to equip a monster with gear, use its ECL as its character level for purposes of determining how much equipment it can purchase. Generally, only monsters with an Advancement entry of "By character class" receive NPC gear; other creatures adding character levels should be treated as monsters of the appropriate CR and assigned treasure, not equipment.

ECL = HD + LA + class levels, and yes (second paragraph) this is referring to monsters who have class levels and NPC gear.

[Urpriest]

It's been that way in 3.5 too.

ECL = HD + LA + class levels, and yes (second paragraph) this is referring to monsters who have class levels and NPC gear.

The only mention of CR in there is for monsters that don't advance by class level. What does that have to do with demiliches?

[ericgrau]

ECL = HD + LA + class levels also applies to demiliches, because they're the exact same thing. Also see edit that includes section title: this is the section on monsters that advance by class levels.

[faceroll]

It's been that way in 3.5 too.

ECL = HD + LA + class levels, and yes (second paragraph) this is referring to monsters who have class levels and NPC gear.

But ECL != CR.

Hill Giant Cleric 12 has a CR of 13 but an ECL of 28. Those two numbers are not the same.

[ericgrau]

It's referring to NPCs not PCs though.

All I found at the moment is that it applies to Duergar at the very least: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dwarf.htm
And PCs are expressly allowed to play demiliches. Do you have a better guess for the LA?

[Darklady2831]

Alright, somewhere along the line I misread something, LA for Demilich is 12 total, 4 as Lich, and 8 as Demilich.

Taken from the ELH

[Urpriest]

It's referring to NPCs not PCs though.

All I found at the moment is that it applies to Duergar at the very least: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dwarf.htm
And PCs are expressly allowed to play demiliches. Do you have a better guess for the LA?

...I'll let other people deal with this.

[blazingshadow]

i thought that +6LA for turning to demilich plus the +4LA of being a normal lich made it into a +10LA but now that i see there doesn't seem to be any LA adjustment for being a demilich in the srd

edit : spelling

[ericgrau]

Ah it has a listed ECL that's not given in the SRD, didn't notice. I thought someone was trying to guess at one.

[faus7rav3n]

My vote...ditch the lich...

Necropolitan Template +0 CL (Libris Mortis)
- Pick up Undead Traits...healed by Neg Energy, d12 HD

Spellstitched Template +1 CL (CArcane)
- With a 20 Wis you'll get 11 SLA's usable a large number of times a day
- DR 5/Magic&Silver
- Spell Resistance = 10+Cha Mod

Depending on WHERE you take this combo...you can effectively be a lich...with a 20 something Spell Resist...a ton of SLA's that I don't think you would normally get as a Demi-Lich.

My 2cp.

**Edit** I'll eat crow, never looked at the Demi Lich. He gets alot of stuff. But I still like the above combo, you can disregard if you please.

[Darklady2831]

So the basic build, as is, will be this.

On the first side: 10 Wizard/ 20 Cerebremancer
On the Second Side: Mind Flayer 15/Psion (Telepath) 1/Lich 4/ Spellstitched 1/ Evolved Undead 9

Thats if I drop Demilich.
If I keep Demilich, then drop Evolved undead down to one, and add 8 Demilich on the second side.

[Starwulf]

I don't particularly know anything about Epic, I just wanted to post to ask why people don't seem to finish their posts whenever they type the name Candle Jack. Seems kinda weird to me. Hell, I just said it and finished typing this entire sente

[ericgrau]

Wait a second, you can put all the LA on one side? That's a bit nuts. I'd keep demilich just because of that. Though if so I'd check with your party now and make sure they're all doing something equally crazy. That may finally be too much.

I mean if you're allowed to do things that way even having 30 LA would at least be bearable. It wouldn't make you half as strong like it would without gestalt. It's more like losing gestaltness which is like losing a couple levels, which would be well worth it for a 30 LA template. Likewise for part of 30 LA it's not a bad deal. Like I said being a level 30 caster and getting demilich goodies might be a bit too much even for gestalt. Compare to other PCs in your group first.


I don't particularly know anything about Epic, I just wanted to post to ask why people don't seem to finish their posts whenever they type the name Candle Jack. Seems kinda weird to me. Hell, I just said it and finished typing this entire sente
You've been abducted. See Freakazoid.

[NineThePuma]

Go Demi-lich and get as many levels of Evolved Undead as you can. =3

[3SecondCultist]

What sourcebook is Demilich in?

[NineThePuma]

Epic Level Handbook.

[tyckspoon]

You've been abducted. See Freakazoid.

And PlzBrk is somehow posting via Twitter or similar, IIRC, which is why you never see him put up anything longer than your average text message.

[NineThePuma]

Nah. He's capable of really long posts too. It's just that he's got the whole candle jack posting schtick goi

[Darklady2831]

Candle JAck...
I said it, I finished this sentance...
So SCREW Y

[BillyBobJoe]

Aargh!!! Will you stop with the "candlejack" thing! You're just trol

[Fox Box Socks]

Enough with the Candlejack stuff. Back on topic!

It's been a while since I've read through my 3.5 books, but I'm pretty sure that

[Darklady2831]

I agree, no more Candle Jack.

So, are there any OTHER templates you can think of, that I should add to this guy? Spellstitched? Is it really WORTH spellstitched? I supposed the one level dip into it would be fine if I was a Lich first, and took an 18 on wis and Int with point buy... So for templates, after Lich is gained, evolved until I'm 21st level caster, then gain demilich, and spellstitched.

[Fox Box Socks]

Just from a purely logistical standpoint, I'm not even sure how a Spellstitched Demilich would even work.

I'm trying to picture what it would look like and simply failing.

[ericgrau]

Evolved x 22 would do ridiculous things to your charisma and AC, and fast healing. Or as many levels as you can fit. Nothing could ever pass saves against your spells, provided you pick a charisma based caster. And you'd get something like 2 more bonus spells per level in addition to normal bonus spells.

Spell-stitched seems a bit redundant and the bonuses and spell levels aren't even that high.

[faceroll]

Spellstitched lets you pick up spells on any list. There are no stipulations that stitched spells must be arcane, only that the wizard that does it is of sufficient level to cast the spells.

They are also SLAs, which mean no material or xp costs when using them.

It's a great LA+0 template.

Another template you may want to pick up is half-fiend, but use the variant on the WotC site. Find a fiend with a proportionally very high intelligence score, then get like +8 or so to your int. If you are allowed to use Cerebremancer, there's no reason you shouldn't have +10 LA on half your build.

Stay away from evolved, unless you want to go with a spontaneous caster (yuck).

[Alleran]

Evolved x 22 would do ridiculous things to your charisma and AC, and fast healing. Or as many levels as you can fit. Nothing could ever pass saves against your spells, provided you pick a charisma based caster. And you'd get something like 2 more bonus spells per level in addition to normal bonus spells.
It's very easy to abuse Evolved. Just hop into a demiplane with a time trait of 100000000000:1 or something to that effect. By the time you come back out after, say, a minute, you should have reams upon reams of Evolved Undead template stacking.

[olentu]

Spellstitched lets you pick up spells on any list. There are no stipulations that stitched spells must be arcane, only that the wizard that does it is of sufficient level to cast the spells.

They are also SLAs, which mean no material or xp costs when using them.

It's a great LA+0 template.

Another template you may want to pick up is half-fiend, but use the variant on the WotC site. Find a fiend with a proportionally very high intelligence score, then get like +8 or so to your int. If you are allowed to use Cerebremancer, there's no reason you shouldn't have +10 LA on half your build.

Stay away from evolved, unless you want to go with a spontaneous caster (yuck).

Huh I had thought spellstitched was no listed LA instead of zero.

[faceroll]

Huh I had thought spellstitched was no listed LA instead of zero.

Yeah, I thought about that when I was posting, but yet the first box on spellstitching makes it really easy and totally rules legit to do it to yourself as a PC. I just dunno man. Ask your DM, I guess. As written, spellstitching yourself won't change your level. Effectively LA+0?

[olentu]

Yeah, I thought about that when I was posting, but yet the first box on spellstitching makes it really easy and totally rules legit to do it to yourself as a PC. I just dunno man. Ask your DM, I guess. As written, spellstitching yourself won't change your level. Effectively LA+0?

Oh they are not really the same thing but it does not matter if the DM is fine with it. Mostly I was just wondering if I was remembering incorrectly.

[faceroll]

Oh they are not really the same thing but it does not matter if the DM is fine with it. Mostly I was just wondering if I was remembering incorrectly.

No, they really aren't the same thing in terms of character creation, but what happens when a character has all the means at his disposal to do such a thing?

I imagine it is similar to using PaO to become a Beholder.

[olentu]

No, they really aren't the same thing in terms of character creation, but what happens when a character has all the means at his disposal to do such a thing?

I imagine it is similar to using PaO to become a Beholder.

Not really. The difference is between what is arbitrarily decided to be proper and what is not. So more like alignment, sort of a mish mash of opinions, often nonsensical, has parts where changing the rules can make the game better, but in the end that is just the way it is.

[Analytica]

Isn't there a specialized alhoon/illithilich/mind flayer lich template somewhere?

[Urpriest]

Isn't there a specialized alhoon/illithilich/mind flayer lich template somewhere?

Yes, but IIRC, it's just the normal lich benefits applied to a mind flayer. Still, the OP should check.

Incidentally, the OP is using those rules, rather than trying to apply lich straight out of the MM to a mind flayer, right? :smallfurious:

[ericgrau]

Stay away from evolved, unless you want to go with a spontaneous caster (yuck).

Spontaneous casters are more fun though. And less trouble; dunno if the OP wants to plan his spells every day and if he doesn't it makes non-spontaneous almost pointless. Especially at epic levels where you aren't even behind a level. Plus a +20ish to save DCs has to at least make you think twice. Or even taking 10 levels would still be a lot. In fact, this is looking to be kinda broken. The OP really needs to compare his build to the other players before finalizing it w/ or w/o evolved. OP: If somehow this all gets through then take greater spell penetration and as many caster level boosts as you can and/or SR:no spells to take care of the only thing remaining that can stop your spells.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

He has yet to finish his post with a completed thought.FTFY.


I've noticed PlzBreakMyCmpAn seems to say Candle Jack a lot while hes posting.Find one instance outside of quotes where I write that name.


And PlzBrk is somehow posting via TwitterSomeone clearly didn't google search :smalltongue:

Well atleast someone found the right LA, too bad I'm the only one I've ever seen with a pre epic demilich bui

[The-Mage-King]

Find one instance outside of quotes where I write that name.

I said "Say", not write. I am assuming that you utter that name whilst typing, and the gentleman is kind enough to hit "submit post".

[faceroll]

dunno if the OP wants to plan his spells every day

Wizard 5 substitution level for spontaneous divination; pick up versatile spellcaster. Alternatively, Uncanny Forethought. Adding 20+ to save DCs is pretty sweet, though there a lot of immunities on CR 30 monsters.