Optimizing my Mind-flayer

[Lord Ruby34]

I'm hoping to play a mind-flayer assassin, specializing in sneak attack with spells for stealth. For the campagin we're allowed to ignore a level adjustment of up to +7 and 8RHD. And when I say ignore racial HD I mean ignore it, no BAB extra hit dice feats, or all that jazz. We're starting at level 7. Standard WBL. Ability scores are 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, and 8 in any order before racial modifiers.

Anyway I was thinking about duel wielding, maybe gloves of the balanced hand to save myself a feat, and using craven. UMD seems pretty good, but I don't know what wands to buy. I have up to two flaws to work with and three traits. Flaws need be from Unearthed Arcana.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

In before IS was mentio

[yugi24862]

IS is banned in this campain, as I know the ones hes talking about

[erikun]

What, exactly, is ignored? Because from what I recall, a Mind Flayer has 7th level Wizard spellcasting or something similar. I would think that a 7th level Wizard Mind Flayer - with 14th level spellcasting, meaning 8th-level spells - would make you stealthier than anything else available.

[yugi24862]

Anything which comes from RHD. So if mind flayers get spellcasting as part of there RHD, he would have it.

[Lord Ruby34]

No, Mind-Flayers don't have Wizard casting. What they do have is SR 25+class levels, darkvison, mindblast, telepathy and some other small things as well as detect thoughts, levitate, plane shift, and suggestion at will.

[erikun]

I don't know how it is worded in the PHB, but if it is anything like the Lillend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lillend.htm) or Rakshasa (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rakshasa.htm), then it would just say "casts spells as a 7th-level wizard" as part of their special attacks.

I know it isn't terribly helpful for your build, but being able to cast Greater Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityGreater.htm) would be rediculously good for dealing out sneak attack damage. So would having Gravestrike/Wraithstrike and the other ignore-sneak-attack-immunity spells. I think that 7th level spellcasting would have those options already, though, so additional levels in Wizard may not be necessary. (They may be helpful, though.)

[EDIT] - No wizard casting? Then nevermind that line of thought.

Don't Mind Flayers have additional attacks with their mouth-tentacles? Multiweapon fighting can get quite ridiculous with 7+ attacks each iteration, especially with the rogue sneak attack damage stacked on.

[WinWin]

What Mind Flayer are you using? The MM version is good, the XPH version is better, only because they are effectively Psion(telepaths).

That should make qualifying for the psionic assassin variant much easier, as well as providing advancement for racial manifesting.

Complete psionic has some Illithid heritage feats. That should allow you to get some mind flayer in your mind flayer and potentially double your allotment of natural attacks. Probably not optimized, but hey, you can double extract people with 8 tentacles.

As for flaws...sounds like you're not interested much in ranged. So take a penalty there. You can probably afford to lose a couple of attribute points as well.

As for traits, I'm fond of Aggressive. Lost defence, but bonus *to attacks and initiative. Seeing as your character concept relies on stealth and deadly sneak attacks, the defence penalty is not really going to be an issue.

*edit

[erikun]

...and suggestion at will.
Something just occured to me. What about a Beguiler? They aren't the assassinate-in-their-sleep type, but they can get the job done just as well through charmed or dominated drones.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use the Psionic Mind Flayer variant in Expanded Psionics Handbook, which trades your psi-like abilities for the manifesting capability of a 9th level Psion (Telepath), which is not reduced by loss of racial HD. Assuming prestige classes add their full level to your initiator level (ToB p39), you could go Swordsage 1/ Psion 4/ Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 1/ Swordsage 1 starting out to get Assassin's Stance, then continue getting more Psychic Assassin levels. Starting out you'll have the manifesting capability of a 13th level Psion, for 7th level powers, along with 3d6 sneak attack and plenty of other useful abilities.

Pick up Mind Cripple as your first special ability from Psychic Assassin, take TWF, Shadow Blade, and probably Weapon Finesse, and if you can use flaws you'll be able to start with Craven and Mindsight (LoM) as well. Your bonus Psionic feat should probably be Psicrystal Affinity, you can use Share Pain on it every day and its Hardness 8 will prevent most of the damage it would take, and you can manifest Vigor and share it with the psicrystal to get a huge temporary HP buffer when needed. For your ability scores I'd go Str 14, Dex 22, Con 18, Int 24, Wis 14, Cha 16 after racial modifiers.

For your powers known as a 13th level Telepath, I'd get Crisis of Life, Temporal Acceleration, Psionic Overland Flight, Psionic Disintegrate, Psionic True Seeing, Mind Probe, Shatter Mind Blank, Psionic Divination, Psionic Dominate, Schism, Psionic Freedom of Movement, Psionic Dimension Door, Time Hop, Body Adjustment, Body Purification, Solicit Psicrystal, Share Pain, Energy Stun, Psionic Suggestion, Crystal Shard, Vigor, Inertial Armor, Force Screen, and Psionic Minor Creation (to make poisons).

[Lord Ruby34]

What Mind Flayer are you using? The MM version is good, the XPH version is better, only because they are effectively Psion(telepaths).

That should make qualifying for the psionic assassin variant much easier, as well as providing advancement for racial manifesting.

Complete psionic has some Illithid heritage feats. That should allow you to get some mind flayer in your mind flayer and potentially double your allotment of natural attacks. Probably not optimized, but hey, you can double extract people with 8 tentacles.

As for flaws...sounds like you're not interested much in ranged. So take a penalty there. You can probably afford to lose a couple of attribute points as well.

As for traits, I'm fond of Aggressive. Lost defence, but bonus *to attacks and initiative. Seeing as your character concept relies on stealth and deadly sneak attacks, the defence penalty is not really going to be an issue.

*edit

Unfortunately psionics are banned, which I really should have stated in the opening post. But the natural weapons will work. suggestion sounds good. Maybe IUS and it's better cousin in the MM.

EDIT: Not that that one would help on further examination... 1d4 to 1d6. Whee.

[Big Fau]

You need to clarify how often you can use the Mind Blast. As written (and even post-errata) you have no delay between uses or even uses/day.


Also, the MM Errata gives you Telepathy out to 100ft.

[Lord Ruby34]

The tactics section in the MM suggests using it repeatedly so I don't think it was intended to have a limit.

[Big Fau]

The tactics section in the MM suggests using it repeatedly so I don't think it was intended to have a limit.

Daily limit? Agreed.

But giving it no limitations at all? Stupid. Forcing a Will save every round or they get stunned for 3d4 rounds means they either need to be immune to Stunning or they need to pump their Will saves into obscenity.

Playing one as a character means either the DM will complain about your Mind Blast, nerf it, or throw Undead at you.

[FMArthur]

Mind Flayers really do have it a bit rough as PCs. None of their features scale or synergize all that well with other things. You could at least keep the party in a state of maximum awareness by taking the Mindsight feat, and maybe using your class levels to be a Ranger or something to feel out the terrain? Actually, make that Chamelon using Ranger spells, not Ranger. You wouldn't be allowed to use the variants that improve the Ranger's spellcasting to be usable at your ECL.

[WinWin]

Soul Eater.

Sounds like you want to make the most of SA by taking Craven and TWF. Energy Drain and poisoned weapons will really lay down the hurt, especially when combined with some extra natural attacks.

Squeezing Assassin and Soul Eater into 7 levels is challenging, but not impossible. I would suggest a Ranger base, trading out animal companion for a familliar. Take an Octopus familliar to give your Improved Grab a bonus. You may even be able to get a level of fighter or 2 (thug variant, DoTU ACF, Dungeoncrasher). You lose out on SA dice, but that is made up for with Craven and sheer number of attacks.

The Necrotic Focus enchantment (MIC) will allow a weapon to use your Energy Drain.

Just a thought. Probably not what you want though.

As an aside, the feat Magic in the Blood from PGtF might be of use to you, allowing a more frequent use of your spell like abilities.

[faceroll]

Soul Eater's level drain ability is a supernatural ability that doesn't specify what sort of action it is. By the general rules for supernatural abilities, it defaults to using a standard action. Multiple natural attacks won't let you drain multiple levels.


You need to clarify how often you can use the Mind Blast. As written (and even post-errata) you have no delay between uses or even uses/day.


Also, the MM Errata gives you Telepathy out to 100ft.

Um, it's a supernatural ability that you can use with a standard action as frequently as you have standard actions to spend.

[Big Fau]

Um, it's a supernatural ability that you can use with a standard action as frequently as you have standard actions to spend.

And has a duration of 3d4 rounds if they fail. It's possible to spam that blast so much that an entire party is stunned for 24 hours, which is the problem (especially since the Mind Flayer in question is a PC-to-be).

[WinWin]

regardless of how you read Soul Eater's energy drain ability, the description of the Necrotic Focus enchantment is quite clear.

There is even an amulet in SS that will bestow it in natural attacks if your DM is interpreting it wrong.

[Lord Ruby34]

Mind Flayers really do have it a bit rough as PCs. None of their features scale or synergize all that well with other things. You could at least keep the party in a state of maximum awareness by taking the Mindsight feat, and maybe using your class levels to be a Ranger or something to feel out the terrain? Actually, make that Chamelon using Ranger spells, not Ranger. You wouldn't be allowed to use the variants that improve the Ranger's spellcasting to be usable at your ECL.

I don't know, I can think of multiple uses for levitate, mind blast, suggestion and charm person. And as someone mentioned earlier natural attacks. As well as at least a small bonus to every ability score and a +8 to int. I think I can do something with that.


Soul Eater.

Sounds like you want to make the most of SA by taking Craven and TWF. Energy Drain and poisoned weapons will really lay down the hurt, especially when combined with some extra natural attacks. And SR 32. That is a very nice thing.

Squeezing Assassin and Soul Eater into 7 levels is challenging, but not impossible. I would suggest a Ranger base, trading out animal companion for a familliar. Take an Octopus familliar to give your Improved Grab a bonus. You may even be able to get a level of fighter or 2 (thug variant, DoTU ACF, Dungeoncrasher). You lose out on SA dice, but that is made up for with Craven and sheer number of attacks.

The Necrotic Focus enchantment (MIC) will allow a weapon to use your Energy Drain.

Just a thought. Probably not what you want though.

As an aside, the feat Magic in the Blood from PGtF might be of use to you, allowing a more frequent use of your spell like abilities.

Level drain feels to cheap for me but poison sounds fun. Technically if I use my natural weapons as my weapons I can't poison myself when applying it.


Daily limit? Agreed.

But giving it no limitations at all? Stupid. Forcing a Will save every round or they get stunned for 3d4 rounds means they either need to be immune to Stunning or they need to pump their Will saves into obscenity.

Playing one as a character means either the DM will complain about your Mind Blast, nerf it, or throw Undead at you.

Eh, the save is only 10+4+Cha mod. I don't think it will get used all that much. Although my Cha should be pretty good.

[Big Fau]

Eh, the save is only 10+4+Cha mod. I don't think it will get used all that much. Although my Cha should be pretty good.

It's much less of a problem if it doesn't scale with class HD.

[Lord Ruby34]

Er, where can I find mindsight?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Er, where can I find mindsight?

Lords of Madness, page 126.

[Lord Ruby34]

Quick rules question first, would multi-attack and improved unarmed strike let me take a full attack to hit someone with both fists and then four tentacles, all with SA if I have a flanking buddy?

EDIT: And would it work with weapon finesse?

[faceroll]

And has a duration of 3d4 rounds if they fail. It's possible to spam that blast so much that an entire party is stunned for 24 hours, which is the problem (especially since the Mind Flayer in question is a PC-to-be).

It's also possible to spam greatsword so much that everybody is dead forever.

[Big Fau]

It's also possible to spam greatsword so much that everybody is dead forever.

Let me correct something here: One use of a Mind Flayer's blast is capable of incapacitating everyone within a 60ft cone for a minimum of 3 rounds, long enough for the Mind Flayer to kill one character and get second into killing-position. Alternatively, it can kill one person, reactivate the Mind Blast (stunning the group again for another 3 rounds at minimum), and start the whole thing over again.

Yes, a Fighter with a greatsword can kill every eventually. He cannot, however, cripple a 60ft cone's worth of creatures for anywhere between 3 and 12 rounds, then selectively kill anyone in that cone every other round.

[faceroll]

Yes, a Fighter with a greatsword can kill every eventually. He cannot, however, cripple a 60ft cone's worth of creatures for anywhere between 3 and 12 rounds, then selectively kill anyone in that cone every other round.

Yes he can. But instead of a 60ft cone it's a 50ft radius and instead of crippling it's killing and instead of 3 and 12 rounds duration it's forever and instead of killing every other round it's killing as a free action.

[Lord Ruby34]

Quick rules question first, would multi-attack and improved unarmed strike let me take a full attack to hit someone with both fists and then four tentacles, all with SA if I have a flanking buddy?

EDIT: And would it work with weapon finesse?

Still this, and does anyone have a way for me to pimp out my attack roll. True Strike sucks, and I want to be able to hit reliably unarmed.

[faceroll]

Still this, and does anyone have a way for me to pimp out my attack roll. True Strike sucks, and I want to be able to hit reliably unarmed.

I know a monk can do it; not sure if vanilla IUS will do it.

[Big Fau]

Yes he can. But instead of a 60ft cone it's a 50ft radius and instead of crippling it's killing and instead of 3 and 12 rounds duration it's forever and instead of killing every other round it's killing as a free action.

I am going to set you on fire with angry thoughts. Let me know if it works.







(ﾉಥ益ಥ)ﾉ ┻━┻

[Urpriest]

Quick rules question first, would multi-attack and improved unarmed strike let me take a full attack to hit someone with both fists and then four tentacles, all with SA if I have a flanking buddy?

EDIT: And would it work with weapon finesse?

Pretty sure you don't need either. Even just using a weapon you could take a full attack to use your weapon, then all your tentacles as secondary attacks. Multiattack just reduces the penalty for secondary attacks from -5 to -2 (probably worth it for you). And Weapon Finesse works with all natural weapons and unarmed strikes.

Edit: Just to clarify: Assassin class, or just sneaky guy who kills people?

[Lord Ruby34]

Either works, I'm probably the skill monkey, as I get 15 skill points a level as a rogue and 11 as an assassin. And assassin spellcasting is nice.

Edit: And I like the flavor, so I'm pretty attached to assassin, but if there's a better alternative I'm open to suggestions. Right now I have this. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=302989)

[Urpriest]

Either works, I'm probably the skill monkey, as I get 15 skill points a level as a rogue and 11 as an assassin. And assassin spellcasting is nice.

Hmm...

Assassin is decent for what you want to do. I'd probably still advise a little Swordsage in there for some juicy maneuvers, but assassin isn't all that bad. Your high Int means that Death Attack could actually be useful sometimes, and getting those four extra attacks helps lay the sneak attack down.

[Lord Ruby34]

What spells would be good on my assassin? I like ghost sound, and Healers vison doesn't seem bad for a 1st level spell.

[Urpriest]

Eventually, Wraithstrike is excellent, and the invisibility line are practically essential, even if a lot of things can see invisibility. I recall there being a lot of cool Assassin spells in the Spell Compendium, but I'm not really familiar with them.