d2 Crusader?

[sapmarten]

Google has failed me. I don't suppose anyone here is willing to supply me with how this NI-damage crusader works?

[Cog]

Promise you're only interested for curiosity's sake, please? It's here. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=80909&page=6)

[olentu]

As I recall the imbued healing feat with the luck domain allows one treat a 1 as if they had rolled a 2. The aura of chaos or whatever that stance from tome of battle was allows one to roll another die when rolling the max on the die. I is treated as 2 which is the max and the only other option is 2 which is the max so you always get the choice to roll another damage die.

That is the gist of the build but I may have made some mistakes on the specifics (names of stuff, exact wording, etc.) so any corrections are of course welcome.

[sapmarten]

Promise you're only interested for curiosity's sake, please? It's here. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=80909&page=6)

:belkar::nale:

Uh, sure, I promise. :smallwink:

[Big Fau]

Ingredients:

Aura of Chaos stance (Devoted Spirit 7, minimum of Crusader 15 required).
Imbue Healing feat (Complete Champion, requires healing spells).
Luck Domain (PHB, requires Cleric, Divine Crusader, or other PrC).
A weapon that deals 1d2 damage (Small Shuriken).
Any Conjuration-Healing spell affected by the Imbue Healing feat.


While in the Aura of Chaos stance, cast Faith Healing on yourself (an immediate action healing spell, 2nd level). You now have Imbue Healing (Luck effect) active.

Make an attack roll against anything using the Shuriken. If you hit, roll damage. Because you have only two possible outcomes, one of two things will happen:


You roll a natural 2, triggering Aura of Chaos. Roll again, adding the second result. Keep rerolling if the subsequent results are also 2.
You roll a 1, triggering Imbue Healing (Luck effect). The die is now a 2, triggering Aura of Chaos.


Infinite damage.

[sapmarten]

Proving once again that the shuriken is the ultimate weapon. In addition to all other d2 weapons. The ninjas had it right, but weren't skilled enough to use it right.

[Big Fau]

Proving once again that the shuriken is the ultimate weapon. In addition to all other d2 weapons. The ninjas had it right, but weren't skilled enough to use it right.

My bad, the shuriken needs to be medium. Or you could be a Halfling with a Spiked Gauntlet (Strongheart Halfling so you don't lose a feat).

[Fax Celestis]

Or my favorite, polymorph/wildshape/awakened Small viper (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/snake.htm#viperSnake) for that 1d2 bite attack.

SIR HISS, DEVOURER OF WORLDS.

[sapmarten]

SIR HISS, DEVOURER OF WORLDS.

One bite at a time. Or alternatively get the monster's version of whirlwind attack and hit every single thing for +NI damage. Dig a hole +NI deep with your fangs.

Is there a way to set any arbitrary weapon's die to d2?

[erikun]

SIR HISS, DEVOURER OF WORLDS.
"I attack the world."

[Cog]

Is there a way to set any arbitrary weapon's die to d2?
The Sizing weapon property comes close, if you can find a way to keep wielding it, or alternatively Shrink Object. Compression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/compression.htm) can get you a two-step size reduction as well.

[Divide by Zero]

However, it could be argued that since you didn't actually roll the max (the result was 2, but the roll itself was still a 1), it doesn't work.

[Cog]

However, it could be argued that since you didn't actually roll the max (the result was 2, but the roll itself was still a 1), it doesn't work.
You can argue that, but you'd be reading Imbued Healing incorrectly to do so. :smallbiggrin: It says to treat any roll of 1 as a 2, and 2 is max damage. If you aren't treating it as max damage, you aren't treating it as a 2.

[Big Fau]

However, it could be argued that since you didn't actually roll the max (the result was 2, but the roll itself was still a 1), it doesn't work.

Well, obviously no DM would allow a d2 Crusader without heavy alcohol or stupidity (or a mix of both). It really doesn't matter if it's legal or not in that case.

[Divide by Zero]

You can argue that, but you'd be reading Imbued Healing incorrectly to do so. :smallbiggrin: It says to treat any roll of 1 as a 2, and 2 is max damage. If you aren't treating it as max damage, you aren't treating it as a 2.

Perhaps, but don't these sorts of things always devolve into arguments of semantics anyway? :smalltongue:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Proving once again that the shuriken is the ultimate weapon. In addition to all other d2 weapons. The ninjas had it right, but weren't skilled enough to use it right.

Another infinite damage loop, which doesn't require a feat, is just a small sized crusader with shrunken and aura of chaos. You automatically deal maximum damage. :belkar:

[Cog]

Small shuriken don't deal 1d1 damage, they deal 1 damage, so you aren't rolling damage at all. The stance doesn't trigger.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Small shuriken don't deal 1d1 damage, they deal 1 damage, so you aren't rolling damage at all. The stance doesn't trigger.

That would automatically disprove the d2 crusader, as you didn't roll maximum on the d2, even though it counts as maximum. Because you said it doesn't trigger the stance's ability because you didn't roll maximum, even though you got maximum.

[Cog]

That would automatically disprove the d2 crusader, as you didn't roll maximum on the d2, even though it counts as maximum. Because you said it doesn't trigger the stance's ability because you didn't roll maximum, even though you got maximum.
Except that when there's a d2, you're still rolling. Either result on that d2 produces the same effect in the end, but different character abilities activate depending on the roll you make, so the roll is relevant.

[Douglas]

That would automatically disprove the d2 crusader, as you didn't roll maximum on the d2, even though it counts as maximum. Because you said it doesn't trigger the stance's ability because you didn't roll maximum, even though you got maximum.
This distinction isn't about whether you rolled maximum but about whether you rolled at all. With the 1d2 trick, you're rolling a two-sided die where effectively both sides are labeled '2'. The outcome is guaranteed to be 2, but you are still rolling. With a small shuriken, there's no die at all, it's just 1 damage. Not 1d1, just 1. If you had to roll a 1-sided die (I don't know, a marble with a number inside?) then it would work, but the damage does not include any dice at all and that means the stance never comes into play.

[LostDeviljho]

I have one of these to use whenever my party starts to make too much trouble. :tongue:

[Yael]

Oh, a friend of mine tried to do that loop, he killed Zeus, DM got mad and finished the game with a: WTH WITH THAT, I DIDN'T APPROVE THAT!!

"You did."

"THAT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING! IT'S OVER! Erick, your turn to DM!"

"Uh, okay?"

[Darrin]

The d2 Crusader can be found in the Famous Optimized Character Builds (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258580-Famous-optimized-character-builds) thread.

As far as whether the Imbued Healing/Luck Domain causes the die to "show" or "count as" a particular number: this is semantic pedantry. It's up to your DM to decide if it works or not.

[Rijan_Sai]

Actually, it works because Aura of Chaos calls for maximum damage shown, not "maximum number", as some people like to think. Because the combo causes 1=2, and 2=max damage, then 1=max damage and the stance triggers.

[eggynack]

Actually, it works because Aura of Chaos calls for maximum damage shown, not "maximum number", as some people like to think. Because the combo causes 1=2, and 2=max damage, then 1=max damage and the stance triggers.
It works either way. If it called for the maximum number, then it would still work, because 1=2 for all intents and purposes, and 2 is the maximum number on the die.

[With a box]

Isn't the d2 crusader is just a kind of save-or-die with ac save?

[georgie_leech]

Do note that it's perfectly possible for a pedantic DM to go "alright, roll your next damage die. When it comes up 2, roll it again. While he's endlessly rolling, as the specific wording doesn't actually give you a choice on whether to roll or not, what are the rest of you guys doing?"

[Doc_Maynot]

Can't it be done instead with the Luck Devotion feat?

[Alex12]

Do note that it's perfectly possible for a pedantic DM to go "alright, roll your next damage die. When it comes up 2, roll it again. While he's endlessly rolling, as the specific wording doesn't actually give you a choice on whether to roll or not, what are the rest of you guys doing?"

Actually:
"You can continue to reroll as long as a die shows its maximum possible result, adding each new number to the damage total until each die has shown less than a maximum result"
You can. You don't have to, but you can. So you choose to roll (a handful of coins would probably be best for this) until the damage reaches some suitably large number and then stop.

[Rijan_Sai]

It works either way. If it called for the maximum number, then it would still work, because 1=2 for all intents and purposes, and 2 is the maximum number on the die.

That's true, and I agree completely. The difference is in the semantics: I'v seen arguments that because the die doesn't show the highest number, the combo stops. My point is that the wording of the stance proves otherwise.

[Magma Armor0]

if you're looking for a playable silly crusader build, might I suggest the idiot crusader? http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8218.0
no NI damage, but still a fun build that some DMs might actually approve.

[Renen]

You might, but the thread is abit old...

[Kalmageddon]

I don't see how this is playable by RAW. You have to keep rolling the damage dice, effectively bringing the game to a halt for all eternity. You don't actually do any damage, since you can never stop rolling the damage dice. You simply freeze the campaign.

[Doc_Maynot]

I don't see how this is playable by RAW. You have to keep rolling the damage dice, effectively bringing the game to a halt for all eternity. You don't actually do any damage, since you can never stop rolling the damage dice. You simply freeze the campaign.


Actually:
"You can continue to reroll as long as a die shows its maximum possible result, adding each new number to the damage total until each die has shown less than a maximum result"
You can. You don't have to, but you can. So you choose to roll (a handful of coins would probably be best for this) until the damage reaches some suitably large number and then stop.

Alex12 is quoting the text of Aura of Chaos

[Renen]

I don't see how this is playable by RAW. You have to keep rolling the damage dice, effectively bringing the game to a halt for all eternity. You don't actually do any damage, since you can never stop rolling the damage dice. You simply freeze the campaign.

As said above. Or you can always just say "infinity damage" and never roll.