[3.5] Maximizing Critical hit usefulness

[Apophis775]

I'm curious about how to maximize the usefulness/frequency of critical hits.

Something suggested to me was:

Dervish with a Schimitar that has Keen

[Starbuck_II]

I'm curious about how to maximize the usefulness/frequency of critical hits.

Something suggested to me was:

Dervish with a Schimitar that has Keen

Weapon Aptitude + lightning Maces with a weapon like Kukri: every time you threaten you get another attack. Add Improved Crit or Keen and that 18-20 becomes 15-20.

[Cog]

Weapon Aptitude + lightning Maces with a weapon like Kukri: every time you threaten you get another attack. Add Improved Crit or Keen and that 18-20 becomes 15-20.
And add Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) for an even further range. Unlike Disciple of (Dispater?), this one's 3.5-legit.

[The Mister Guy]

Disciple of Dispater, Improved Critical, Minnotaur Greathammer. You get something ridiculous like a 12-20(?)/x4 crit range with d12 damage. I think yes.

The Mister Guy

[Cog]

The crit-range stacking rules were one of the things that changed in the version update, and Disciple was meant to interact with the much looser older rules. Of Diciple's ability and the Improved Critical feat, the latter's the one that takes precedence in a 3.5 game.

[Starbuck_II]

I always forget that one.

Also, Streetfighter Barbaran ACF at 7th adds +1 Threat when you charge or on attacks vs flatfooted foe.

3.0 Disciple of Disipater adds at 4th and 8th, but being 3.0, might make DMs wary of it.

[Veyr]

And add Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) for an even further range. Unlike Disciple of (Dispater?), this one's 3.5-legit.
Disciple of Dispater is definitely "legit" for 3.5, since the rule is the un-updated 3.0 material is considered 3.5 material, though many DMs may well be leery (and, of course, the changes to the way that Improved Critical work might indicate that the PrC should be similarly modified before allowing it).

[Cog]

(and, of course, the changes to the way that Improved Critical work might indicate that the PrC should be similarly modified before allowing it).
That was exactly my point. I wasn't saying that Disciple itself wasn't useable, just that the critical-improvement ability (which is all that's being discussed here) might not be.

[navar100]

Pathfinder has feats you can take to provide for an extra effect on critting, such as Bleed or Stunning.

[Rhaegar14]

When you're far enough in, get a keen vorpal weapon within the 18-20 threat range. Critical threat on a 15-20, and instant enemy death on a confirmed critical hit.

[Heatwizard]

On the class side, a single level of Warblade'll give you access to Blood in the Water, a stance that gives you a cumulative +1 to hit and damage every time you crit, and it doesn't go away until you go a minute without criting something. Taking it to three adds your Int bonus to critical confirmations.

[Amphetryon]

If you're going all-in on the critical hit line, you'll probably want Power Critical or some other method of improving confirmation odds, along with a method of applying some of that critical hit bonus to things normally immune.

[FMArthur]

When you're far enough in, get a keen vorpal weapon within the 18-20 threat range. Critical threat on a 15-20, and instant enemy death on a confirmed critical hit.

This thread's for 3.5! Can't you see the topic title? :smalltongue:

Anyway TWFing with Keen/Improved Critical Kukris and being a Warblade for the Blood in the Water stance is really good at this sort of thing without needing extra stuff. Blood in the Water gives you a stacking +1 to attack and damage every time you crit, wearing off only if you go a minute (10 rounds) without making a critical hit.

Dervish hasn't been particularly good for some time; scimitars having d6 over the kukri's d4 is nothing to take a prestige class about, and free movement or pounce is easy enough to get that a Dervish's x/day dances pale in comparison. If you're really set on the scimitars though, you could play a Diopsid (a beetle race from Dragon Compendium, LA+1) and take Oversized Two Weapon Fighting to apply two-handed bonuses to the weapons and two-handed Power Attack - criticals really excel when you stack up lots of bonuses, after all.

[The Mister Guy]

When you're far enough in, get a keen vorpal weapon within the 18-20 threat range. Critical threat on a 15-20, and instant enemy death on a confirmed critical hit.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that vorpal weapons only activate on a natural 20, not a a critical hit, so that wouldn't work.

[Greenish]

I like warblade with revenant blade. Free Imp. Crit is nifty (especially on ECL 6, before most others can get it), you can grab the warblade goodies, and of course you'll have 15-20 double weapon.

Speaking of double weapons, Sacred Scabbard (MIC) seems to work for them. That's a Bless Weapon effect for 10 rounds 3/day as swift action. Why boost crit confirmation rolls when you can autosucceed in 'em? :smalltongue:

If you're gishing it up (or can talk a caster for it), Dolorous Blow (SC) is an excellent tool, too. It's Keen Edge + autoconfirm in nice package.

[Draz74]

On a "practical optimization" note, if you're trying to maximize the usefulness of critical hits, you should certainly not use a Keen weapon. Improved Critical is much better, since it stacks with weapon enhancements that do useful things on a critical hit, such as Enervating and Slowing Burst (MIC).

On the "theoretical optimization" side ...


Disciple of Dispater, Improved Critical, Minnotaur Greathammer. You get something ridiculous like a 12-20(?)/x4 crit range with d12 damage. I think yes.

The Mister Guy

Pshhhh. Child's play. :smalltongue: You can get more impressive crit stats on your weapon than that by starting with a 18-20 threat range, and making the weapon out of kaorti resin.

[Greenish]

Aptitude Keen Ribbon double scimitar with Lightning Maces, Roundabout Kick and Bless Weapon on it, with Ranger/Barbarian/Warblade/Revenant Blade/Frenzied Berserker charger guy.

Of course, FB charger type is going to run out of targets long before he runs out of attacks even with a two-hander.

[herrhauptmann]

I like warblade with revenant blade. Free Imp. Crit is nifty (especially on ECL 6, before most others can get it), you can grab the warblade goodies, and of course you'll have 15-20 double weapon.

Speaking of double weapons, Sacred Scabbard (MIC) seems to work for them. That's a Bless Weapon effect for 10 rounds 3/day as swift action. Why boost crit confirmation rolls when you can autosucceed in 'em? :smalltongue:

Doesn't sacred scabbard state that it acts exactly as if Bless Weapon had been cast?
Spell Caveat:

In addition, all critical hit rolls against evil foes are automatically successful, so every threat is a critical hit. This last effect does not apply to any weapon that already has a magical effect related to critical hits, such as a keen weapon or a vorpal sword.

I realize that most of the monster manual is evil, but if you're fighting against mostly neutral or good opponents, then a sacred scabbard won't be as useful.

A while back I was compiling a list of weapon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196596) effects that provide some penalty beyond just damage to the foe, since a character I was working on would get at least 2 AOOs on a given enemy in 1 turn. The problem was that his base damage was low. So... here's as far as I got.


{table=Head]Name|Book|Cost|Effect|Save
Wounding |DMG|+2|1 Con damage|None
MarrowCrushing |BoVD|+3|1 Con Damage|None
Enfeebling|BoED|+1|1d6+2 Temp Str Damage|None
Paralyzing|BoED|+2|Paralyzed up to 10 rounds|Will 17
Roaring|BoED|+3|Shaken, 2d6 sonic|Will 22
Nervewrack|D.Uund|+1|On Crit Many effects1d4 rounds|None
Subjugating|Heroes of Battle|+2|Shaken/Frightened 5 rounds|Will 20
Doom Burst|Mini|+1|Crit, shaken 5minutes|None
Paralytic Burst|Mini|+2|Crit, Hold Monster|None
Weakening|Shining South|+3|1 Str Damage|None
[/table]
I'd recommend the BoED Enfeebling (which I'd swear is crit only), and Doom Burst from Mini handbook. Combined +2 cost, but a single crit now makes your enemy shaken, with 1d6+2 strength damage.

[Greenish]

Doesn't sacred scabbard state that it acts exactly as if Bless Weapon had been cast?Yeah, if you're fighting non-evil you'd want something else, like the aforementioned Dolorous Blow (which doesn't ask questions).

[Edit]: Except that Dolorous Blow doesn't work on any weapon with magical effects relating to critical hits. :smallannoyed:

[herrhauptmann]

(which doesn't ask questions).

Haha...
yeah Dolorous blow is awesome.

[Rhaegar14]

Oh yeah. Haven't read that property in a while. Forget what I said lol.

[FMArthur]

Bloodfeeding is a +1 enhancement that 'stores' 2 points of damage every time you damage a foe with it (up to 20) and can release up to 10 at a time on a single attack (but you can't gain points on attacks you spend them). Since you choose to spend points at the stage when you are damaging a foe, you already know that you succeeded on a hit before you have to choose to expend stored damage points - and thus, whether or not you've scored a critical hit. So you store 20 damage in each of two weapons for the start of each fight, and when you crit, expend stored points to improve the damage (pre-multiplication) by 10. That's for two attacks with each weapon.

Even after that initial surge of damage in the battle, choosing to spend your points only on critical hits means that for every non-crit you'll improve the total damage on criticals by 4 (after multiplication), which is still a better return than a flat +1 enhancement bonus. 'Crit fisher' builds generally produce more attacks than usual anyway, providing more opportunities to store damage throughout a battle. Bloodfeeding is a sweet deal for improving damage because it's only a +1 enhancement. Combined with Blood in the Water, and some pouncing, your damage starts fights big, drops briefly then escalates again.

[darksolitaire]

Bloodfeeding is a +1 enhancement that 'stores' 2 points of damage every time you damage a foe with it (up to 20) and can release up to 10 at a time on a single attack (but you can't gain points on attacks you spend them).

That's bit off.


Every time a bloodfeeding weapon deals
damage to a living creature, it gains 1
“blood point,”...

I had an idea to use Bloodfeeding with Vicious enchantment for my Samurai's katana, to create flavor for a cursed weapon. Still waiting for the campaing to start :smallmad:

Cutting yourself would be a bit to EMO...:smallbiggrin:

[squeekenator]

Pshhhh. Child's play. :smalltongue: You can get more impressive crit stats on your weapon than that by starting with a 18-20 threat range, and making the weapon out of kaorti resin.

Where exactly are the rules for acquiring a kaorti resin item? I know there's that article on the Wizards site with rules for making them, but it never mentions or even implies a market price, so unless you play a kaorti you wouldn't be able to use that.

EDIT: Reading over this post, it may sounds like as me accusing you of making stuff up or being wrong; that wasn't my intention. I'm genuinely curious.

[kardar233]

If you want to be further insane, Psychic Weapons Master adds another 2 points of threat range if you have Imp. Crit by its 7th level, and allows you to add one to the crit multiplier some times per day.

Kaorti Resin Falchion, DoD, PWM, the works.

2d4 damage, 10-20 crit range, x5 multiplier.

Or throw in Lightning Maces/Aptitude Kukris for buckets of attacks.

[sonofzeal]

The largest threat range in the game is a Psionic Weapons Master weilding Tiger Fangs, a legacy weapon from ToB. Tigers Fangstarts out as a Kukri, but its base threat range expands as you level, meaning all multipliers on it skyrocket.

[NineThePuma]

Nope. Psychic Weapon Master specifies that the weapon has to be made of Crystal. Not Deep Crystal, but mundane crystal.

Of course, I make my own legacy weapon(s) that are Kukri with the same traits. Custom making legacy weapons is fun! =D

[sonofzeal]

Nope. Psychic Weapon Master specifies that the weapon has to be made of Crystal. Not Deep Crystal, but mundane crystal.

Of course, I make my own legacy weapon(s) that are Kukri with the same traits. Custom making legacy weapons is fun! =D
Basically, yeah, that's the solution. Sorry, should have mentioned.

[Lonely Tylenol]

For Pathfinder, the Monk technique that lets you roll three die at a time during your attack roll, combined with Keen sai.

[Cog]

Nope. Psychic Weapon Master specifies that the weapon has to be made of Crystal. Not Deep Crystal, but mundane crystal.
Deep crystal is merely a particularly high-grade form of regular crystal, so a deep crystal weapon is also a crystal weapon.

[NineThePuma]

a standard crystal melee weapon

This seems to say otherwise.

[Greenish]

If you want to be further insane, Psychic Weapons Master adds another 2 points of threat range if you have Imp. Crit by its 7th level, and allows you to add one to the crit multiplier some times per day.

Kaorti Resin Falchion, DoD, PWM, the works.

2d4 damage, 10-20 crit range, x5 multiplier.Disciple of Dispater requires the weapon to be made of metal, PWM requires it to be made of crystal, and kaorti resin is neither (it's outsider goo).

[true_shinken]

Weapon Aptitude + lightning Maces with a weapon like Kukri: every time you threaten you get another attack. Add Improved Crit or Keen and that 18-20 becomes 15-20.
That's also extremely cheesy and against RAI, so there is that. this is simply RAW abuse.


And add Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) for an even further range. Unlike Disciple of (Dispater?), this one's 3.5-legit.
They stack. Just take both (crystal counts as metal, yes, that's weird).
3.0 is 3.5-legit by definition, even if banning it seems to be a common houserule.

[herrhauptmann]

That's also extremely cheesy and against RAI, so there is that. this is simply RAW abuse.


They stack. Just take both (crystal counts as metal, yes, that's weird).
3.0 is 3.5-legit by definition, even if banning it seems to be a common houserule.

Where does it say that crystals are a metal?
I know that in modern day engineering classes, we're taught that metals have a crystalline structure (FCC, BCC, HCP, and many other orientations), but that doesn't mean that crystals are a metal. Characteristics of metals (http://library.thinkquest.org/C006669/data/Chem/atomic/metals.html) It's like saying since squares are also rectangles, then any given rectangle is a square.
The whole iron or crystal thing, didn't that start back in the original editions, almost 40 years ago? When none of the primary writers were engineers, just guys that worked off of LotR, Conan, and Robin Hood for inspiration?

Also, is that PWM a joke? A quick glance shows a PrC with 6 feats for a prereq, 5/10 manifester levels, and abilities that at first glance don't seem especially awesome. Aren't harsh prereqs supposed to indicate a more powerful PrC?

[NineThePuma]

Note the release date; way back in 04. I personally wouldn't mind dropping the entire 'Dodge' tree.

[Doc Roc]

I hesitate to mention it but I think true is wrong here.... Disperse an weapon master were probably not intended to be used together, and even if crystals are treated as metal, that doesn't make it iron.

[true_shinken]

Where does it say that crystals are a metal?
It's on the XPH.

Because mundane crystal armor is considered to be made out of metal, druids cannot wear it.
It's not metal, it's considered metal.
But as Doc Roc mentioned, it's not specifically iron. Guess I'm a bit rusty on this. :smallamused:

[Cog]

That's also extremely cheesy and against RAI...

3.0 is 3.5-legit by definition, even if banning it seems to be a common houserule.
If you're going to speak about RAI, you should keep in mind that one of the things changed between editions is the critical range stacking rules. I think the argument's already been presented in this thread; Curmudgeon's gone into it in more depth elsewhere if not. 3.0 itself is legit, yes, but you're supposed to adjust all such material for the changes made in the edition update, and Improved Critical's rules are one of the things updated.

[Greenish]

Aren't harsh prereqs supposed to indicate a more powerful PrC?You're assuming WotC has any idea on what is powerful.

[herrhauptmann]

You're assuming WotC has any idea on what is powerful.

Forgive me, I still believe the line from 3.0 should be valid, that a Prestige Class should be a choice taken by a character, to specialize in one field or area while giving up power in another. Thus creating a character that would be approximately equal in power to one that had not entered into a prestige class.
Instead, you end up with something like the PsiWM, or the Deepwarden, fairly strong prereqs, for a PrC that you probably won't want to take for 10 levels. And then there's all the casting PrC, where the prereqs are generally feats and skills you'll be taking anyway. Thus you lose nothing during gameplay prior to entry, and just become stronger after entry. [/rant] (Probably in the wrong thread, but oh well)

[Divide by Zero]

Forgive me, I still believe the line from 3.0 should be valid, that a Prestige Class should be a choice taken by a character, to specialize in one field or area while giving up power in another. Thus creating a character that would be approximately equal in power to one that had not entered into a prestige class.
Instead, you end up with something like the PsiWM, or the Deepwarden, fairly strong prereqs, for a PrC that you probably won't want to take for 10 levels. And then there's all the casting PrC, where the prereqs are generally feats and skills you'll be taking anyway. Thus you lose nothing during gameplay prior to entry, and just become stronger after entry. [/rant] (Probably in the wrong thread, but oh well)

That wasn't his point. To steal a quote from another poster, WotC employees have no ranks in Balance. Whether a PrC should be power powerful has little bearing on whether it is.

[Drglenn]

A Prismatic Burst weapon gives a random effect of prismatic ray/spray to the target when you get a crit, only DC20 for half/partial/resist (depends on the effect) though and +30000gp to the price. Its in Magic Item Compendium.

[Ravens_cry]

It's a Pathfinder feat, but by golly, this looks useful. Say you are playing a rogue, or some with a lot of bonus damage that doesn't add on critical. Sure, it's nice, but you got better options. Still, high end crit weapons can be you and your mêlée allies friend still. You know the one, the one who swings the big battleaxe, or scythe, that crits heavily, but never does. I present, Butterflies Sting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/butterfly-s-sting-critical). Now, basically, a high critical multiplier weapon is basically a high critical threat one as well once per round in mêlée. Extremely high. Anything that hits high.

[herrhauptmann]

That wasn't his point. To steal a quote from another poster, WotC employees have no ranks in Balance. Whether a PrC should be power powerful has little bearing on whether it is.

I know what his point was, and it can stand with my most of my rant.
Wotc felt that certain melee PrC were too powerful, and so gave it harsh prereqs. Even if the majority of the PrC is crap and no one takes it more than halfway.
It makes sense too, that most of the casting PrC are either underpowered, so they're given easy prereqs. Or they're overpowered, and Wotc sense of balance, says to require many ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana (things that casters take anyway), thus making the prereqs strenuous enough to be worth what is gained through the PrC. (I know it doesn't explain things like the greenstar adept though)

[true_shinken]

If you're going to speak about RAI, you should keep in mind that one of the things changed between editions is the critical range stacking rules. I think the argument's already been presented in this thread; Curmudgeon's gone into it in more depth elsewhere if not. 3.0 itself is legit, yes, but you're supposed to adjust all such material for the changes made in the edition update, and Improved Critical's rules are one of the things updated.
There are other examples of threat range stacking in 3.5. Psychic Weapon Master is one and Mythic Exemplar (I think) has another one.
His point makes sense in early 3.5, but WotC turned away from that same philosophy themselves.

[Thurbane]

Side question: what are some decent weapon enhancements that activate on a critical? There's plenty out there, but most don't seem worth the cost...

[Draz74]

Side question: what are some decent weapon enhancements that activate on a critical? There's plenty out there, but most don't seem worth the cost...

As I mentioned earlier, my favorites are Enervating and Slowing Burst. The others in MIC are mostly pretty ok too.