[3.5] Makin' Changes to the Wiz/Sor Dynamic

[C.Penguin]

Hey Playground,

I recently read a thread about the things in 3e D&D that people really enjoyed, as well as things that needed killing, and, unsurprisingly, one of the issues was the power discrepancy of the Wizard relative to the Sorcerer, as well as the general quadratic/linear dichotomy between full-casters and non-casters. The Wizard is without doubt better than the Sorcerer in almost every way, and a lot of the advantage comes from the fact that a Wizard can cast every spell on the Sor/Wiz spell list, barring specialization exceptions and the hand full of sorc-only spells. Some contest that because the Sorcerer gets more spells per day than the Wizard, this issue is remedied, but, in my opinion at least, one or two more spells doesn't equate to having all the options.

So I had an idea, and this might have been tried already, but if anyone has done this or had thoughts along the same lines, let me know:

How would breaking Wizards into 8 classes (Evoker, Diviner, Necromancer, etc) which worked like the standard Wizard except that the highest level spells (6-9 or something along those lines) could only be drawn from that Wizards "specialized school," and all other spells had to be 5th (or something) level or lower, affect the difference between Wizards and Sorcerers?

Or, alternatively, how would only allowing a Wizard to cast spells from one school at all, but allow him to cast every spell from all lists (Sor/Wiz, Clr, Drd, et al.) affect the dynamic?

I know the whole "fix-the-Wizard" thing has been beaten to death, but I haven't seen this sort of idea before, and lack of sleep convinced me that the Playground was the place to go for feedback.

[Seharvepernfan]

WHOOO!! high thread initiative roll

Have you considered making it a requirement for wizards to prepare a lower level spell of the same school before they prepare one of any given level? Put another way: in order to prepare a 2nd level spell, you must have already prepared a 1st level spell of the same school, in order to prepare a 3rd level spell, you must have prepared a 1st and 2nd, etc. It doesnt matter which you cast first, as long as you prepared them this way.

I've never gotten around to playtesting it, but I figured Id shout out while the thread isnt clogged.

[C.Penguin]

I hadn't thought of that but that is a cool idea and I might have to incorporate something along those lines in my next game.

[dsmiles]

Perhaps make Sorcerers function on something like the Psionics system, with spell points? It would make them more versatile than they would be with a set number of spells/day of any given level.

Personally, I use the variant classes presented in BESM: The Slayers d20 (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0BzPw7X6JvNR-Y2U3OWJjNWItYTc0Zi00NGNlLWFiYTYtMTZkZmMxYjljZTAx&hl=en_US&authkey=CNmjrvoC), which work off the Advanced d20 Magic (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0BzPw7X6JvNR-NzZlZTZiZTktMjU4Zi00N2Q0LTg1ZmYtMzg4MTk0YjQ1NjJh&hl=en_US&authkey=CJmN0LoK) system. This, however increases the power differential between magic classes and martial classes. (Of course, the non-lethal damage keeps the casting to a minimum. :smallamused:)

I also have a homebrewed Necromancer class around here somewhere, let me know if you're interested (after reading the variant classes).

[Analytica]

My favourite: merge the classes. Base Mage class is Sorcerer, but with the Wizard skill list. Then allow the following feat:

Greater Arcane Preparation
Prerequisites: Arcane Preparation, Knowledge: Arcane 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks
Benefit: You can prepare spells as per Arcane Preparation, but they need not be on your Spells Known list, but can come from an arcane writing such as a spellbook. This feat allows you to maintain a spellbook and scribe scrolls into it as normal. To prepare a spell in this manner, you must have an Intelligence score of at least 10+spell level, and 4+2*spell level ranks in both Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcane.

Basically a Madder hybrid that must invest in thematic skills. You can cast your Known spells at your leisure, but can prepare other spells.

[Grendus]

To be honest, in terms of raw combat effectiveness, sorcerer and wizard are actually about even, it's the out of combat usefulness that blows sorcerer out of the water (though to be fair, that has more to do with Arcane Fusion letting sorcerers implode the action economy and Wings of Cover granting them complete immunity to targeted spells). What sorcerer needs to be on par with the wizard is a way to match them in non-combat spells.

What I would suggest is a spellpool-like thing. By concentrating for a given time (10 minutes sounds about fair, or maybe 5 x spell level minutes) and making a scaling spellcraft roll, a sorcerer can 'figure out' a spell and cast it once (consuming a spell slot of the required level or higher). This strikes a balance between the two without necessarily making either stronger - the sorcerer gets access to all the spells he wants, assuming he has the time, but he only gets a few in combat. The wizard can prepare a great variety of spells, but can only cast the ones he's already figured out and prepared.

[Silva Stormrage]

To be honest, in terms of raw combat effectiveness, sorcerer and wizard are actually about even, it's the out of combat usefulness that blows sorcerer out of the water (though to be fair, that has more to do with Arcane Fusion letting sorcerers implode the action economy and Wings of Cover granting them complete immunity to targeted spells). What sorcerer needs to be on par with the wizard is a way to match them in non-combat spells.

What I would suggest is a spellpool-like thing. By concentrating for a given time (10 minutes sounds about fair, or maybe 5 x spell level minutes) and making a scaling spellcraft roll, a sorcerer can 'figure out' a spell and cast it once (consuming a spell slot of the required level or higher). This strikes a balance between the two without necessarily making either stronger - the sorcerer gets access to all the spells he wants, assuming he has the time, but he only gets a few in combat. The wizard can prepare a great variety of spells, but can only cast the ones he's already figured out and prepared.

Umm just saying for your spell pool idea a cap would be good, because I can guarantee giving sorcerers access to every spell out of combat would be more rigged than wizards needing to find a scroll or spell book with it.

[Rejakor]

Most of the best spells are in conjuration or transmutation anyway.

Limiting available wizard spells is an alright way to bump them down a tier or two, but meh. So many ways around it and by the time they hit 6th level spells they don't care, they've already won. Forcing someone to choose between shapechange and gate is a nonissue, as having either is already a win button over beatsticks or rogues.

[erikun]

The first problem is that Sorcerers are a level behind Wizard in spellcasting, from 3rd level all the way to 18th (where both have 9th-level spells). The Sorcerer's larger number of spells known is almost entirely mitigated by being a Wizard specialist, at that. Simply giving them spell slots/spells known at the odd levels (3rd, 5th, 7th, etc.) would help resolve the differences.

The other problem is that Wizards prepare their spells and Sorcerers do not. This is basically the definition of the Tier 1/Tier 2 divide: the ability to re-write your class features (known spells) to fit the situation as you choose.


However, the big problem that I personally see is that Wizards and Sorcerers are just too similar. They do the exact same thing, in the exact same way, with only a few differences (INT vs CHA, prepared vs spontaneous). It's like comparing the Fighter to the CA Samurai: Which full BAB, high HP, good Fort, bad Ref/Will class with several bonus fighter feats is better? Comparing the two, one will clearly come out on top, but that is mainly because the two are so incredibly similar.

[FMArthur]

One common way to 'equalize' the two is to grant Sorcerers 1 level higher casting progression and grant bonus feats every five levels. Ostensibly the selection from there is style rather than power, and would appear so to a low-op group or WotC designer.


That is not nearly accurate, however. The biggest gap is in the day-to-day versatility of prepared casters compared to the choose-your-spells-once of spontaneous casters. If you gave them the Spirit Shaman's (Complete Divine) Spells Known mechanic and chart, they would actually be able to bridge that gap. Basically, they get to choose which spells they would count as 'knowing' each day.

The difference between the Sorcerer and Wizard would be smaller, but would exist and would present a more interesting choice for the player. A Wizard would still be able to prepare a different spell in each of his 3-7 slots of each level, making him still stand out as having more variety in his daily routines. The Sorcerer would have the advantage of choosing just how many of each spell to cast as he needs them and having slightly more slots (only if you bump them up one level!), but would only get 1-3 of each level to Know each day. At the end of the day I think Wizards would still take it, but would not possess as massive an advantage over their competitor and would not be strictly superior.

One common viewpoint to take is that Sorcerers are powerful enough that they don't need a buff, but IMO that's not entirely accurate in a game that includes Wizards because of just how hard they are outclassed. In order to justify the class's existence at all and to make it a real option rather than a gimped-for-flavor-reasons option, Sorcerers need relative equality with Wizards. Right now playing a Sorcerer is a sacrifice of power for less bookkeeping, and little more.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

The gap between casters and non-casters we won't solve, of course, but what works for me with regards to sorceres and wizards is the following:

Grant sorceres the spells known advancement of psions. This way they get to a certain spell level at the same moment as a wizard and they get a wider spell selection at each level (i.e. you don't have to wait for level 9 and 11 for your 3rd and 4th level 3 spell, but you get them at level 6). Right now the wizard has the wider spell selection and metamagic feats and the sorcerer gets his flexibility and more raw 'oomph' per day. Otherwise they are at the same level. Psions then again get even more casting flexibility and bonus feats, but they have (when compared to sorcerers) less raw total 'oomph' and a narrower power/spell list to choose from. Works for me :smallsmile:.

[Grendus]

Umm just saying for your spell pool idea a cap would be good, because I can guarantee giving sorcerers access to every spell out of combat would be more rigged than wizards needing to find a scroll or spell book with it.

The biggest issue is that wizards can add any spell in the game to their book. A 20th level wizard will, by default, know 8 9th level spells (16 if he takes Collegiate Wizard). A 20th level sorcerer will know 3. And the wizard can add more to his spellbook, and have the same number of slots if he's a focused specialist. I understand that this can be fixed by the DM saying "no, you can't have that spell", but that's a Rule 0 Fallacy. By RAW, unless a spell specifically says it can't be sold in scroll form, there must be a scroll of it somewhere. At 4000gp a pop, 9th level spell scrolls are easily within the possible range of items offered in a metropolis (worst case, the wizard can just Plane Shift and go shopping in Sigil).

A scaling spellcraft check (20+Spell Level x 2) and time cost (10 + Spell Level cubed minutes would require over twelve hours to acquire a 9th level spell) would keep this from being "the sorcerer scratches his head for a second and then casts Genesis". Of course, you would have to make stipulations (you can't use this to create scrolls or magic items), and of course, it would be just as subject to DM fiat. But this would let the sorcerer use the little utility spells without having to give up their precious few spells known for them.

This would be making Sorcerers T1. But then, let's face it, if I were to go to you and say "I want to take a dread necromancer, and in exchange for it's class features and making it have to learn the spells from scrolls, let it learn all the spells from it's own list, plus most of the bard, beguiler, wu jen, and a chosen mix from the cleric and druid list" you'd say it's overpowered. We're talking about T1. The only thing that keeps them from overrunning the higher planes is that some of the gods are also T1 classes.