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crusaderjim
2011-06-04, 10:10 AM
After I created my paladin update, I got bored and so I browsed through various sourcebooks (from both 3.5 and Pathfinder), created a few ideas of my own, and compiled them together here to create an updated 3.5 Fighter. It still relies primarily on its large amounts of bonus feats, but it also has a few class abilities to help it along. With the addition of Extra Strike, I wanted to add some of the classic fighter feel where the fighter was the only one who could make more than one attack per turn. Obviously I couldn't do that without rewriting all of D&D 3.5, so I gave them the ability to make an extra attack each turn (starting at 1 and going up to 5).

Fighter


http://tempestman.webs.com/1288289916791.jpg

"There are three hundred of them and only seven of us, I think we'll be okay." - Jory Castle, Captain of the Iron Ravens

The grizzled veteran, the wily mercenary, and the heroic champion, these are but a few examples of the many roles a fighter can play. Fighters possess the strength to slay their enemies and protect their allies. Many men and women are able to take up arms to protect their lands, but only the fighter is able to go toe-to-toe with demons and dragons. When monsters come from the wilderness to raze villages and wicked kings march armies to conquer their neighbors, the fighters are the soldiers that fight for those who cannot.

Adventures: Most fighters consider quests, missions, and raids as their job, just another way to bring in the coin. Some fighters serve patrons, lords, or organizations that pay them regularly while others work as mercenaries, getting paid for each job. There are heroic fighters who adventure to protect the weak, and there are villainous fighters who quest for power.

Characteristics: Fighters have the best all-around fighting capabilities. They are familiar with nearly every weapon and armor type, allowing them to remain flexible and versatile in combat situations. No one can learn and master fighting styles quite like the fighter, which gives them an edge in combat.

Alignment: Fighters come in all stripes. Some are heroic revolutionaries while others are vile tyrants. Others are mercenaries in it for the money while others are royal guards of the lands' rulers. No two fighters are exactly alike.

Religion: Fighters tend to offer praise to gods and goddesses of war, tactics, strategy, and victory. Deities that promote strength, loyalty, and even luck are popular amongst fighters.

Background: Different fighters have different histories. Some received their training from military academies while others were privately instructed by specialized trainers. Others served as militiamen for years, developing their skills on their own while protecting their home from goblin raiders and the like.

Races: Members of nearly every race can be fighters, although more savage humanoids prefer the barbarian class to the fighter. Human, half-elf, and dwarf fighters are generally military veterans. Elf fighters are generally masters of the rapier or longsword and enjoy a time-honored tradition of noble duels. The smaller races, such as the halfling and gnome, tend to stray away from the fighter class, but those who do pursue the course are quite skilled.

Other Classes: Fighters excel in straightforward combat, but they lack the ability to cast even the simplest spell. They require the aid of a wizard for magical support, a rogue to disable any dangerous trap, and a cleric or druid for healing. No one values teamwork quite like a fighter.

Role: In most parties, a fighter serves a melee combatant. He is not however forced to take on this role. Some fighters make excellent archers if they train for it, while others are capable tacticians that lead the party through strategy and command. The fighter's primary role is always to fight (hence the name).

Game Rule Information

Abilities: Strength is important for fighters because it improves their melee attack and damage rolls. Constitution grants them extra hit points and boosts their Fortitude saves, both of which are very helpful to a frontline warrior. Dexterity is important for archery-focused fighters and fighters who don’t want to be impeded by heavy armor.

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) (Int), Knowledge (history), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int Modifier) x 4

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int Modifier

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Bonus Feat, Extra Strike (1)|

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Bonus Feat, Battle Hardened +1|

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Team Initiative|

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Bonus Feat|

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Armored Mobility (medium)|

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2|Bonus Feat, Battle Hardened +2, Extra Strike (2)|

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2|Elusive Attack (+2 AC), Extraordinary Defense (+1)|

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2|Bonus Feat|

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3|Armored Mobility (heavy)|

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+3|
+3|Bonus Feat, Battle Hardened +3|

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3|Extra Strike (3), Focused Strike|

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat, Elusive Attack (+4 AC), Extraordinary Defense (+2)|

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4|Counter Attack|

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat, Battle Hardened +4|

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5|Frightful Presence, Overpowering Attack|

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5|Bonus Feat, Extra Strike (4)|

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|Elusive Attack (+6 AC), Extraordinary Defense (+3)|

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6|Bonus Feat, Battle Hardened +5|

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6|Battlefield Juggernaut|

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6|Bonus Feat, Legendary Warrior| [/table]

Class Features: All of the following are class features of the fighter class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and will all armor and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional feat at 2nd level and everyone two levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats and the fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat.

Extra Strike: Starting at 1st level, a fighter can make one extra melee or ranged strike each round when attacking. His extra strike is made with his highest base attack bonus. If a fighter is wielding two weapons, he may make an extra strike with each weapon, but with the appropriate penalties for two weapon fighting. At 5th level and every five levels thereafter, a fighter gains an additional extra strike each round (two extra strikes at 5th, 3 extra strikes at 10th, 4 extra strikes at 15th, and 5 extra strikes at 20th). Each extra strike is made with his highest base attack bonus.

Extra strikes can be made with abilities that require a full-round action to complete, such as the fighter’s counter attack ability.

Battle Hardened (Su): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter becomes hardened against the most frightening and gruesome aspects of combat. He gains a +1 bonus to Fortitude saves and saves against fear effects. This bonus increases by 1 every four levels (+2 at 6th, +3 at 10th, +4 at 14th, and +5 at 18th). At 10th level, a fighter can reroll any failed Fortitude saving throw rolls and saving throw rolls against fear effects. He must abide by the result of the new, second saving throw, even if it is lower than the first. This ability does not require an action; the fighter simple decides to use it after seeing the result of his saving throw roll but before he is informed as to its success or failure.

Team Initiative: Starting at 3rd level, a fighter adds 1/2 his fighter class level as a bonus to the initiative checks of himself and all allies within 10 feet.

Armored Mobility (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a fighter is able to wear his armor like a second skin and ignores the Armor Check Penalty, maximum Dexterity bonus, and standard speed reduction while wearing medium armor. Starting at 8th level, he ignores the Armor Check Penalty, maximum Dexterity bonus, and the speed reduction imposed by heavy armor as well.

Elusive Attack (Ex): At 7th level, a fighter masters a technique of combining offense and defense. As a full-round action, he can make one attack at his highest base attack bonus. Until this start of his next turn, he gains a +2 dodge bonus to AC. This bonus improves to +4 at 12th level and to +6 at 17th level.

Extraordinary Defense (Ex): Starting at 7th level, while wearing armor, a fighter gains DR 1/-, a +1 stacking armor bonus, and 25% fortification. At 12th level his DR increases to 2/-, his armor bonus increases to +2 and his fortification increases to 50%. At 17th level his DR increases to 3/-, his armor bonus increases to +3, and his fortification increases to 75%.

Focused Strike (Ex): Starting at 11th level, a fighter no longer automatically misses an opponent when he rolls a 1 on his attack roll. He still misses the opponent if his attack roll is not equal to or greater than his enemy’s AC however.

Counter Attack (Ex): Starting at 13th level, a fighter learns to hold back some of his offensive power in order to counter enemy attacks. As a full-round action, he can make one melee attack at his highest attack bonus. At any time before the start of his next turn, he can use an immediate action to make a melee attack (using his highest base attack bonus) against an enemy that attacks him in melee.

Frightful Presence (Ex): At 15th level, when a fighter defeats an enemy in combat by reducing its HP to 0 or less, opponents within 30 feet must succeed on a Will save (DC 15 + the fighter’s Cha modifier) or become panicked for 4d6 rounds. Creatures with levels or HD higher than the fighter’s level are not affected, but creatures normally immune to fear effects are still subject to a fighter’s frightful presence.

Overpowering Attack (Ex): At 15th level, a fighter can focus his attention to deliver a single deadly attack. As a full-round action, a fighter can make one attack at his highest base attack bonus. That attack deals double damage, as do any other attacks he makes before the start of his next turn.

Battlefield Juggernaut (Ex): At 19th level, a fighter becomes a near-invincible juggernaut of destruction. His bonuses from his Extraordinary Defense and Battle Hardened class abilities are increased. His armor bonus increases to +5, his DR increases to 5/-, his fortification increases to 100%, his bonuses to Fortitude saving throws and saving throws against fear effects increase to +7, and whenever he rerolls a saving throw with his Battle Hardened ability, he uses the higher of the two throws.

Legendary Warrior (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter’s prowess and skill in combat have become the stuff of legends. His frightful presence’s DC changes to DC 20 + his Cha modifier + his Str modifier and affects all enemies within 50 feet. Furthermore, the critical hit range of any weapon he wields increases by 1 (this stacks with effects applied by Improved Critical, the keen enhancement, or the keen edge spell, but is added afterwards and cannot be increased), and the critical hit multiplier of his weapon is increased by 1 (from x2 to x3, and from x3 to x4).

Dark Kerman
2011-06-06, 05:49 PM
Why the increase of will saves?

Seerow
2011-06-06, 05:56 PM
Why the increase of will saves?

Why not? no further comment needed.

Dark Kerman
2011-06-06, 06:05 PM
I think perhaps a higher reflex would make more sense? Don't get me wrong, I am sure there is many an intellectual fighter (Just to keep Roy Greenhilt from getting mad at me. :smalltongue:) but a strong mind is secondary in there proffession to a strong body. It would be better to say they have a good reflex as they have strong, fast-twitch muscles that can react, rather than a strong will, as there minds are not often tested for what they train as. :smalltongue:

Seerow
2011-06-06, 06:08 PM
I think perhaps a higher reflex would make more sense? Don't get me wrong, I am sure there is many an intellectual fighter (Just to keep Roy Greenhilt from getting mad at me. :smalltongue:) but a strong mind is secondary in there proffession to a strong body. It would be better to say they have a good reflex as they have strong, fast-twitch muscles that can react, rather than a strong will, as there minds are not often tested for what they train as. :smalltongue:

The argument's been fleshed out elsewhere, I'm not going to rehash it. It's actually a really common theme in literature for the protagonist fighters (ie PCs) have a tendency to have a really strong will, especially for resisting mind control effects. It's the NPC Warriors who tend to get mind controlled.

Will Saves aren't about being intellectual or smart, but more about your strength of will, your perseverance, things that should be epitomized by the Fighter.

Falin
2011-06-06, 06:16 PM
Well, and this may just be me, but regardless of thematic reasons, fighters need ALL good saves. Because this game literally expects them to face down vampires, and beholders, and all manner of creatures and not be the first to blink. And besides, since most optimized fighters are basically enormous bundles of two level dips…

crusaderjim
2011-06-07, 08:56 AM
Why the increase of will saves?

That was actually a typo, I had copied my paladin table for ease of creation. They should only have a high Fort save.


Well, and this may just be me, but regardless of thematic reasons, fighters need ALL good saves. Because this game literally expects them to face down vampires, and beholders, and all manner of creatures and not be the first to blink. And besides, since most optimized fighters are basically enormous bundles of two level dips…

Although I like this idea quite a bit...

Thoughts on the revamp in general? I want a few more class abilities, but I can't think of any on my own. I took most of them from the various ACFs the fighter has in multiple sourcebooks.

Dryad
2011-06-07, 09:31 AM
I'd say: Grant the Fighter three POOR save progressions, and then grant a first level ability that makes the player choose two saves to be the Fighter class' good saves. That would allow a player some more choice: Brawny, willpower or evasive?

I've always thought that Fighters deserved at least a high Will save. You can't be much of a fighter if you're running away like a pansy, now can you? Or if you're easily distracted by shinies?

I like the rest of the class, by the way. ;) I do think the hd is too high; I strongly believe the d12 as an hd should be reserved for classes like the Barbarian. (I'm looking at you, Warblade!:smallfurious:)

Gideon Falcon
2011-06-07, 03:04 PM
I like the Extra Attack feature. I really do. I LOVE the Legendary Warrior capstone. Note, however, that Jiriku's fix allows you to attack as an immediate action without taking a full round action to prepare it. In fact, exporting a few features from his fix would definitely help this one out.

All in all, excellent class.

Lonely Tylenol
2011-06-09, 12:25 AM
A couple questions:

1) Is Extra Strike part of a full-round action or a standard action? If a standard action, it's a bit much--granting two attacks and a move action (four attacks to someone with Two-Weapon Fighting or just wielding two weapons) to a first-level Fighter has obvious implications for a low-level game, where Fighters and Fighter-types are already ahead of the game (by simple virtue of the fact that the Wizard hasn't learned to break the world yet, yes, but still), and of course, it scales faster than full attack progression for full-BAB classes and stacks with it, so it's quite bothersome.

Even as a full-round action, it's a bit much, especially at the rate at which it progresses. Five additional attacks at my highest Base Attack Bonus (a total of nine attacks in a full-round action, six of which are at my highest BAB)? Yes please. Combine that with Power Attack and break more or less everything in a single full-round action.

Let's assume I'm playing a Fighter that's got Vow of Poverty (which can be regarded as an absolute baseline for magical enhancement; anything weaker than that and you might as well have Vow of Poverty anyhow). For the purposes of determining damage, the Fighter has Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Improved Critical (Greatsword), Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) and Power Attack; ignore the rest. I have 30 STR unadjusted (18 for point buy + 4 for attribute enhancement + 8 for having chosen STR at level 7 for Vow of Poverty bonus), and my weapon is treated as a +5 Greatsword (Vow of Poverty bonus). You find yourself against the broad side of a Very Old Black Dragon, and prepare a full attack.

With these stats alone, my Base Attack Bonus is +20, but I get a +10 from my STR, +5 from weapon enhancement, and +3 from Weapon Focus and Melee Weapon Mastery, so my attack bonus from this alone is actually +38. I can Power Attack for +4 and hit on a 1 (if we're not playing with critical fumble), but I'll be extra daring and Power Attack for +5, because I love multiples of five. My first attacks will hit on anything that isn't a 1, my seventh on anything above a 6, eighth on anything above an 11, and so on. I crit on a 17-20 for x2.

My damage bonus with a +5 Power Attack is +34 (+15 from STR with a two-handed weapon, +10 from Power Attack with a two-handed weapon, +5 enhancement bonus from the sword, and +4 from Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery), so I'll do 2d6+34 per hit.

With the first set of rolls I made, I rolled:
20+33 = 53 (critical confirmed: 7 + 33 = 40) for 6d6+102 (126)
6+33 = 39 for 2d6+34 (41)
4+33 = 37 for 2d6+34 (41)
9+33 = 42 for 2d6+34 (42)
18+33 = 51 (critical confirmed: 18+33 = 51) for 6d6+102 (127)
The dragon is already dead (377 damage against a 350 HP creature), but let's keep going with the remaining four attacks:
19+33 = 52 (critical confirmed: 4+33 = 37) for 6d6+102 (124)
18+28 = 46 (critical not confirmed: 5+28 = 33) for 2d6+34 (43)
13+23 = 36 for 2d6+34 (39)
16+18 = 34 for [MISS]
Damage Total: 583, 8 of 9 attacks hit (3 of 9 critical)
+4 power attack: 595, 9 of 9 attacks hit (3 of 9 critical), ninth attack damage 2d6+32 = 40

With the second set of rolls I made, I rolled:
6+33 = 39 for 2d6+34 (43)
1+33 = 34 for [MISS]
6+33 = 39 for 2d6+34 (43)
6+33 = 39 for 2d6+34 (37)
9+33 = 42 for 2d6+34 (42)
9+33 = 42 for 2d6+34 (43)
15+28 = 43 for 2d6+34 (39)
1d6+23 = 24 for [MISS]
11+18 = 29 for [MISS]
Damage Total: 247, 6 of 9 attacks hit (0 of 9 critical)
+4 power attack: 283, 7 of 9 attacks hit (0 of 9 critical), second attack damage 2d6+32 = 44

With the third set of rolls I made, I rolled:
12+33 = 45 for 2d6+34 (43)
6+33 = 39 for 2d6+34 (43)
18+33 = 51 (critical confirmed: 9+33 = 42) for 6d6+102 (126)
14+33 = 47 for 2d6+34 (38)
7+33 = 40 for 2d6+34 (42)
10+33 = 43 for 2d6+34 (42)
11+28 = 39 for 2d6+34 (39)
The dragon is already dead (373 damage against a 350 HP creature), but let's keep going with the remaining two attacks:
4+23 = 27 for [MISS]
4+18 = 22 for [MISS]
Damage Total: 373, 7 of 9 attacks hit (1 of 9 critical)
+4 power attack: 355, 7 of 9 attacks hit (1 of 9 critical)

With the fourth set of rolls I made, I rolled:
9+33 = 42 for 2d6+34 (42)
7+33 = 40 for 2d6+34 (45)
2+33 = 35 for 2d6+34 (43)
2+33 = 35 for 2d6+34 (40)
5+33 = 38 for 2d6+34 (44)
16+33 = 49 for 2d6+34 (41)
10+28 = 38 for 2d6+34 (41)
5+23 = 28 for [MISS]
3+18 = 21 for [MISS]
Damage Total: 296, 7 of 9 attacks hit (0 of 9 critical)
+4 power attack: 282, 7 of 9 attacks hit (0 of 9 critical)

With the fifth set of rolls I made, I rolled:
7+33 = 40 for 2d6+34 (44)
20+33 = 53 (critical confirmed: 14+33 = 47) for 6d6+102 (122)
11+33 = 44 for 2d6+34 (41)
10+33 = 43 for 2d6+34 (43)
19+33 = 53 (critical confirmed: 14+33 = 47) for 6d6+102 (127)
The dragon is already dead (377 damage against a 350 HP creature), but let's keep going with the remaining four attacks:
10+33 = 43 for 2d6+34 (44)
10+28 = 38 for 2d6+34 (39)
10+23 = 33 for [MISS]
2+18 = 20 for [MISS]
Damage Total: 460, 7 of 9 attacks hit (2 of 9 critical)
+4 power attack: 438, 7 of 9 attacks hit (2 of 9 critical)

With the sixth set of rolls I made, I rolled:
12+33 = 45 for 2d6+34 (39)
16+33 = 49 for 2d6+34 (39)
2+33 = 35 for 2d6+34 (40)
4+33 = 37 for 2d6+34 (40)
17+33 = 50 (critical confirmed: 7+33 = 40) for 6d6+102 (126)
1+33 = 34 for [MISS]
10+28 = 38 for 2d6+34 (39)
11+23 = 34 for [MISS]
3+18 = 21 for [MISS]
Damage Total: 323, 6 of 9 attacks hit (1 of 9 critical)
+4 power attack: 387, 8 of 9 attacks hit (1 of 9 critical), sixth attack damage 2d6+32 = 41, eighth attack damage 2d6+32 = 39

With the seventh set of rolls I made, I rolled:
19+33 = 52 (critical confirmed: 18+33 = 51) for 6d6+102 (118)
6+33 = 39 for 2d6+34 (41)
19+33 = 52 (critical confirmed: 12+33 = 45) for 6d6+102 (123)
4+33 = 37 for 2d6+34 (41)
14+33 = 47 for 2d6+34 (37)
The dragon is already dead (360 damage against a 350 HP creature), but let's keep going with the remaining four attacks:
1+33 = 34 for [MISS]
12+28 = 40 for 2d6+34 (39)
4+23 = 27 for [MISS]
13+18 = 31 for [MISS]
Damage Total: 399, 6 of 9 attacks hit (2 of 9 critical)
+4 power attack: 419, 7 of 9 attacks hit (2 of 9 critical), sixth attack damage 2d6+32 = 40

With the eighth set of rolls I made, I rolled:
12+33 = 45 for 2d6+34 (41)
9+33 = 42 for 2d6+34 (42)
9+33 = 43 for 2d6+34 (44)
1+33 = 34 for [MISS]
18+33 = 51 (critical confirmed: 11+33 = 44) for 6d6+102 (121)
11+33 = 44 for 2d6+34 (43)
17+28 = 45 (critical confirmed: 12+28 = 40) for 6d6+102 (121)
The dragon is already dead (412 damage against a 350 HP creature), but let's keep going:
7+23 = 30 for [MISS]
5+18 = 23 for [MISS]
Damage Total: 412, 6 of 9 attacks hit (2 of 9 critical)
+4 power attack: 427, 7 of 9 attacks hit (2 of 9 critical), fourth attack damage 2d6+32 = 35

With the ninth set of rolls I made, I rolled:
14+33 = 47 for 2d6+34 (43)
7+33 = 40 for 2d6+34 (44)
14+33 = 47 for 2d6+34 (39)
6+33 = 39 for 2d6+34 (40)
17+33 = 50 (critical confirmed: 11+33 = 44) for 6d6+102 (120)
12+33 = 45 for 2d6+34 (39)
20+28 = 48 (critical confirmed: 20+28 = 48) for 6d6+102 (124)
The dragon is already dead (449 damage against a 350 HP creature), but let's continue with the last two attacks:
20+23 = 43 (critical not confirmed: 1+23 = 24) for 2d6+34 (45)
15+18 = 33 for [MISS]
Damage Total: 494, 8 of 9 attacks hit (2 of 9 critical)
+4 power attack: 470, 8 of 9 attacks hit (2 of 9 critical)

With the tenth (and final) set of rolls I made, I rolled:
3+33 = 36 for 2d6+34 (40)
16+33 = 49 for 2d6+34 (44)
14+33 = 47 for 2d6+34 (45)
8+33 = 41 for 2d6+34 (41)
9+33 = 42 for 2d6+34 (39)
18+33 = 51 (critical confirmed: 20+33 = 53) for 6d6+102 (124)
6+28 = 34 for [MISS]
12+23 = 35 for 2d6+34 (41)
The dragon is already dead (374 damage against a 350 HP creature), but let's keep going with the last attack:
3+18+21 for [MISS]
Damage Total: 374, 7 of 9 attacks hit (1 of 9 critical)
+4 power attack: 398, 8 of 9 attacks hit (1 of 9 critical), seventh attack damage 2d6+32 = 42

The average for those ten sets of full attacks is 396.1, or enough to slay the Very Old Black Dragon by a margin of 46. The dragon was slain outright seven out of ten times (#1, #3, #5, #7-10).

Just for fun, I made adjustments for the damage output assuming I made a +4 Power Attack instead, adding +1 to each roll-to-hit, -2 damage to each successful hit (with an additional -4 for each confirmed critical) and rolling 2d6+32 for each attack that was a 34 result the first time (since it becomes a hit with the extra +1).

The average for those ten sets of full attacks is 405.4, which is enough to kill a Very Old Black Dragon with a full attack, with enough of a buffer to miss on an extra attack (meaning below average damage output would still kill it). The dragon died eight out of ten times on these (surviving only on #2 and #4).

Compare to what other melee classes can do with their best tricks (in terms of sheer damage output) at level 20 (I will only roll 5 full-attack sets for each):

A Rogue with the same stats and enhancement bonus to weapons (let's say two weapons, each short swords), replacing all Weapon Specialization feats with the Two-Weapon Fighting line and also giving a flanking bonus (+30 in all), but not power attacking because it reduces the chance to hit. Improved Critical is still in effect (that, or the swords are keen, so they still have a 17-20 threat range).

With the first set of rolls I made, I rolled:
13+30 = 43 for 11d6+15 (57)
19+30 = 49 (critical not confirmed: 4+30 = 34) for 11d6+15 (56)
5+25 = 30 for [MISS]
14+25 = 39 for 11d6+15 (54)
13+20 = 33 for [MISS]
12+20 = 32 for [MISS]
Damage Total: 167, 3 of 6 attacks hit (0 of 6 critical)

With the second set of rolls I made, I rolled:
7+30 = 37 for 11d6+15 (58)
15+30 = 45 for 11d6+15 (54)
5+25 = 30 for [MISS]
3+25 = 30 for [MISS]
6+20 = 26 for [MISS]
20+20 = 40 (critical confirmed: 17+20 = 37) for 12d6+30 (75)
Damage Total: 187, 3 of 6 attacks hit (1 of 6 critical)

With the third set of rolls I made, I rolled:
20+30 = 50 (critical confirmed: 17+20 = 47) for 12d6+30 (71)
6+30 = 36 for 11d6+15 (70; five 6s and four 5s!)
11+25 = 35 for 11d6+15 (57)
4+25 = 29 for [MISS]
8+20 = 28 for [MISS]
20+20 = 40 (critical not confirmed: 10+20 = 30) for 11d6+15 (56)
Damage Total: 254, 4 of 6 attacks hit (1 of 6 critical)

With the fourth set of rolls I made, I rolled:
13+30 = 43 for 11d6+15 (58)
1+30 = 31 for [MISS]
11+25 = 36 for 11d6+15 (45)
16+25 = 41 for 11d6+15 (61)
14+30 = 34 for [MISS]
1+20 = 21 for [MISS]
Damage Total: 164, 3 of 6 attacks hit (0 of 6 critical)

With the fifth (and final) set of rolls I made, I rolled:
1+30 = 31 for [MISS]
11+30 = 41 for 11d6+15 (50)
15+25 = 40 for 11d6+15 (57)
3+25 = 28 for [MISS]
1+20 = 21 for [MISS]
9+20 = 29 for [MISS]
Damage Total: 107, 2 of 6 attacks hit (0 of 6 critical)

The average for those five sets is 175.8, less than half the +4 power attacking Fighter by a margin of more than 50 points. Top-end damage was 254 (341 shy of +4 power attacker's 595), and low-end was 107 (140 shy of standard's 247).

That immediately rules out the Ranger and Scout, which have no direct method of meeting the Rogue's damage (even when combined via the Swift Hunter feat), and really anything that can't compete with the Rogue or exists on the same tier, damage-wise.

A Warblade using the Raging Mongoose (Tiger Claw 8) and Time Stands Still (Diamond Mind 9) in conjunction to perform two full-attack actions with two +5 short swords, 30 STR, 20 INT (14 from point buy and +6 from selecting it at level 11 with Vow of Poverty), does as follows (we're going to use the Two-Weapon Fighting tree as opposed to the Weapon Focus tree; weapons are keened as the Rogue's):

With the first set of rolls I made, I rolled:
2+33 = 35 for 1d6+20 (22)
3+33 = 36 for 1d6+20 (23)
6+33 = 39 for 1d6+20 (23)
18+33 = 51 (critical confirmed: 6+33 = 39) for 2d6+40 (48)
14+33 = 47 for 1d6+20 (21)
14+33 = 47 for 1d6+20 (26)
15+28 = 43 for 1d6+20 (23)
6+28 = 32 for [MISS]
11+23 = 34 for [MISS]
10+23 = 33 for [MISS]
12+18 = 30 for [MISS]
5+33 = 38 for 1d6+20 (26)
14+33 = 47 for 1d6+20 (23)
17+28 = 45 (critical not confirmed: 2+20 = 30) for 1d6+20 (21)
10+28 = 38 for 1d6+20 (24)
9+23 = 32 for [MISS]
15+23 = 38 for 1d6+20 (22)
2+18 = 20 for [MISS]
Total Damage: 302, 12 of 18 attacks hit (1 of 18 critical)

With the second set of rolls I made, I rolled:
11+33 = 44 for 1d6+20 (24)
16+23 = 49 for 1d6+20 (21)
6+33 = 30 for 1d6+20 (21)
14+33 = 47 for 1d6+20 (25)
3+33 = 36 for 1d6+20 (21)
9+33 = 42 for 1d6+20 (23)
8+28 = 36 for 1d6+20 (22)
15+28 = 43 for 1d6+20 (22)
10+23 = 33 for [MISS]
7+23 = 30 for [MISS]
12+18 = 30 for [MISS]
6+33 = 39 for 1d6+20 (26)
7+33 = 40 for 1d6+20 (26)
18+28 = 46 (critical confirmed: 15+28 = 43) for 2d6+40 (49)
17+28 = 45 (critical not confirmed: 1+28 = 29) for 1d6+20 (25)
4+23 = 27 for [MISS]
6+23 = 29 for [MISS]
11+18 = 29 for [MISS]
Damage Total: 305, 12 of 18 attacks hit (1 of 18 critical)

With the third set of rolls I made, I rolled:
20+33 = 53 (critical confirmed: 7+33 = 40) for 2d6+40 (46)
13+33 = 46 for 1d6+20 (23)
15+33 = 48 for 1d6+20 (26)
7+33 = 40 for 1d6+20 (26)
5+33 = 38 for 1d6+20 (22)
12+33 = 45 for 1d6+20 (23)
19+28 = 47 (critical confirmed: 12+28 = 40) for 2d6+40 (48)
16+28 = 44 for 1d6+20 (21)
11+23 = 34 for [MISS]
8+23 = 31 for [MISS]
9+18 = 26 for [MISS]
10+33 = 43 for 1d6+20 (25)
19+33 = 52 (critical confirmed: 12+33 = 45) for 2d6+40 (47)
3+28 = 31 for [MISS]
4+28 = 32 for [MISS]
7+23 = 30 for [MISS]
13+23 = 36 for 1d6+20 (26)
4+18 = 22 for [MISS]
Damage Total: 333, 10 of 18 attacks hit (3 of 18 critical)

I'm gonna end it there for Warblade, since the damage seems to have very little variation. It seems like Warblade competes in this regard with the Fighter on this once-per-encounter Swift Action + Full Action maneuver combo, even though it does slightly less average damage (~300 seems to be the norm) and much less high-end damage... Until I am reminded that Two-Weapon Fighters get ten extra bonus attacks at level 20, so they'll still have more attacks at their highest Base Attack Bonus by virtue of this class feature than a Warblade pulling out all the stops (twelve total; fourteen if you take Martial Study for Dancing Mongoose with a Fighter Bonus Feat). They also have the extra feats to use both the Two-Weapon Fighting line and the Weapon Focus line, so let's see what would happen if we built a Two-Weapon Fighter to take on the same Very Old Black Dragon. Same Vow of Poverty rules and what-have-you as before.

Our Fighter has 30 STR (18 from point buy + 4 from attribute points + 8 from Vow of Poverty) and 20 WIS (14 from point buy + 6 from Vow of Poverty), Intuitive Attack, Power Attack, the Two-Weapon Fighting line, and the Weapon Focus line up to Melee Weapon Mastery (though it could easily go beyond that). It also has two +5 Short Swords, and Martial Study for Dancing Mongoose. Its total bonus to damage, then, is +19 (+10 STR modifier, +5 swords, +4 from Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery) and its attack bonus is +41 (+20 BAB, +10 STR modifier, +5 WIS modifier, +5 sword, +3 from Weapon Focus and Melee Weapon Mastery, -2 for Two-Weapon Fighting). We'll convert 7 of that attack bonus to a damage bonus, since the first set of rolls proved that no margin for error is the best margin for error, so our damage is at +26 and our attack bonus at +34.

Let's roll, then.

With the first set of rolls I made, I rolled:
6+34 = 40 for 1d6+26 (28)
13+34 = 47 for 1d6+26 (28)
16+34 = 50 for 1d6+26 (28)
10+34 = 44 for 1d6+26 (29)
17+34 = 51 (confirmed critical: 7+34 = 41) for 2d6+52 (56)
2+34 = 36 for 1d6+26 (27)
12+34 = 46 for 1d6+26 (32)
6+34 = 40 for 1d6+26 (27)
11+34 = 45 for 1d6+26 (28)
15+34 = 49 for 1d6+26 (27)
13+34 = 47 for 1d6+26 (30)
10+34 = 44 for 1d6+26 (27)
The dragon is already dead (367 damage against a 350 HP creature), but let's continue with the last seven attacks:
9+34 = 43 for 1d6+26 (30)
5+34 = 39 for 1d6+26 (28)
13+29 = 42 for 1d6+26 (32)
11+29 = 40 for 1d6+26 (31)
11+24 = 35 for 1d6+26 (28)
1+24 = 25 for [MISS]
9+19 = 28 for [MISS]
Damage Total: 516, 17 of 19 attacks hit (1 of 19 crit)

That seems like quite enough for me.

A Fighter doing 500+ damage at higher levels becomes a trivial matter even in low-op games, as even the numbers figured in above are very conservative (rolling in the 17-20 threat range only about 5% of the time, roughly a quarter of its expected frequency, and rolling mostly 1-3 on damage). Using the above rolls, I was able to kill the 350-HP dragon using only the bonus attacks from the Fighter and a single Martial Study boost--and then perform my usual full attack action! What's more, this happens at the absolute bottom of the equipment chain (the baseline that Vow of Poverty provides), and only requires the feat investment required to kill a Black Dragon Wyrm (a 459 HP, CR-equivalent True Dragon) solo in a single Full Attack action. Imagine if the character was properly geared--and buffed!--by an adventuring party!

I'd suggest either scaling down this effect drastically or removing it entirely, because it is not only more powerful than every other melee class ability in 3.5 by order of magnitude, but it makes other interesting abilities--including Elusive Attack and Counter Attack, but especially Overpowering Attack (why is this a 17th-level ability when you get Extra Strike at level 1 and scale it up, again?) seem extremely useless.

Oh, yeah...

2) Is Frightful Presence a passive ability, like an aura, or does it require an action to maintain or initiate? Is it like Dazzling Display, in which you perform a maneuver in order to create the desired effect? Do enemies need to be able to see you? Hear you? Interact with you directly in any way?

Seems somewhat ridiculous if you can force everything into the room to drop all their weapons, run as far and fast as they possibly can, and cower in fear (as the total defense action) for long enough to kill them (roughly 4d6 times, according to the above statistics) just because your weapon happens to be out?

tempestman
2011-06-09, 09:28 AM
snip

Not to nitpick, but Vow of Poverty is lost if you have anything more than a simple weapon (such as a quarterstaff). So your argument is technically invalid, but we'll let it slide for the purpose of testing balance.

Looking over your post (admittedly I didn't read all of the rolls and whatnot), it does seem like this fighter might be overpoweringly strong low to mid-level (and in terms of pure damage output, it is still tops at high level, but the wizards and sorcerers that break worlds rarely do it by throwing lots of dice at said worlds).

I would make your extra strike read like this:

Extra Strike: Starting at 1st level, a fighter can make one extra melee or ranged strike each round when attacking. His extra strike is made with his highest base attack bonus. If a fighter is wielding two weapons, he may make an extra strike with each weapon, but with the appropriate penalties for two weapon fighting. At 6th level and every five levels thereafter, a fighter gains an additional extra strike each round (two extra strikes at 6th, 3 extra strikes at 11th, and 4 extra strikes at 16th level). Each extra strike is made with the next highest base attack bonus.

A fighter can make one extra strike as part of any standard attack action. In order to use all of his extra strikes, he must make a full-round attack action.

So, here's what the BAB and ES would look like:

1st:+1/+1
2nd:+2/+2
3rd:+3/+3
4th:+4/+4
5th:+5/+5
6th:+6/+1/+6/+1
7th:+7/+2/+7/+2
8th:+8/+3/+8/+3
9th:+9/+4/+9/+4
10th:+10/+5/+10/+5
11th:+11/+6/+1/+11/+6/+1
12th:+12/+7/+2/+12/+7/+2
13th:+13/+8/+3/+13/+8/+3
14th:+14/+9/+4/+14/+9/+4
15th:+15/+10/+5/+15/+10/+5
16th:+16/+11/+6/+1/+16/+11/+6/+1
17th:+17/+12/+7/+2/+17/+12/+7/+2
18th:+18/+13/+8/+3/+18/+13/+8/+3
19th:+19/+14/+9/+4/+19/+14/+9/+4
20th:+20/+15/+10/+5/+20/+15/+10/+5

At 20th level a fighter with one weapon will be attacking 8 times in one round as a full-round action, which is quite a bit. However, he must still hit the target, which granted will probably not be too difficult seeing at 6 of his attacks have a double digit bonus even with a Strength mod +0 and a normal weapon.

A 20th level fighter dual wielding weapons would have more attacks, but with each attack having a decreased chance to hit. Very formidable, but again, it's no save or die wizard magic.

It sort of looks like a not piece o' crap flurry of blows. In fact, if you were to go ahead and make all of the fighter's saves better (which I support), this class would be a could hybridization of the two classes. Just toss in some ACFs with monk flavor and there you go.

Provided you reel in the extra strike feature a little to match the BAB progression and limit its use a little and it'll be a good start. I'd also toss in a few more class features.

crusaderjim
2011-06-09, 10:52 AM
Extra Strike: Starting at 1st level, a fighter can make one extra melee or ranged strike each round when attacking. His extra strike is made with his highest base attack bonus. If a fighter is wielding two weapons, he may make an extra strike with each weapon, but with the appropriate penalties for two weapon fighting. At 6th level and every five levels thereafter, a fighter gains an additional extra strike each round (two extra strikes at 6th, 3 extra strikes at 11th, and 4 extra strikes at 16th level). Each extra strike is made with the next highest base attack bonus, with the final strike having a +1 bonus.

A fighter can make one extra strike as part of any standard attack action. In order to use all of his extra strikes, he must make a full-round attack action.

So, here's what the BAB and ES would look like:

1st:+1/+1
2nd:+2/+2
3rd:+3/+3
4th:+4/+4
5th:+5/+5
6th:+6/+1/+6/+1
7th:+7/+2/+7/+2
8th:+8/+3/+8/+3
9th:+9/+4/+9/+4
10th:+10/+5/+10/+5
11th:+11/+6/+1/+11/+6/+1
12th:+12/+7/+2/+12/+7/+2
13th:+13/+8/+3/+13/+8/+3
14th:+14/+9/+4/+14/+9/+4
15th:+15/+10/+5/+15/+10/+5
16th:+16/+11/+6/+1/+16/+11/+6/+1
17th:+17/+12/+7/+2/+17/+12/+7/+2
18th:+18/+13/+8/+3/+18/+13/+8/+3
19th:+19/+14/+9/+4/+19/+14/+9/+4
20th:+20/+15/+10/+5/+20/+15/+10/+5

At 20th level a fighter with one weapon will be attacking 8 times in one round as a full-round action, which is quite a bit. However, he must still hit the target, which granted will probably not be too difficult seeing at 6 of his attacks have a double digit bonus even with a Strength mod +0 and a normal weapon.

A 20th level fighter dual wielding weapons would have more attacks, but with each attack having a decreased chance to hit. Very formidable, but again, it's no save or die wizard magic.

I'm using this.

tempestman
2011-06-09, 11:11 AM
Feel free. I'll try to think up some other features for you.

Lonely Tylenol
2011-06-09, 01:33 PM
Not to nitpick, but Vow of Poverty is lost if you have anything more than a simple weapon (such as a quarterstaff). So your argument is technically invalid, but we'll let it slide for the purpose of testing balance.

I just used Vow of Poverty-equivalent stats for the baseline. They're theoretical; I'm not assuming the character actually has Vow of Poverty, I'm just assuming that there's no way the character has gear worse than Vow of Poverty, because at that point they might as well be using Vow of Poverty. (For the two-handed Power Attacker, the weapon changes to a longspear with a negligible change in damage; for the two-weapon fighter, nothing changes.)

I tend to conservative estimates, because finding the most ridiculous example tends toward fifteen one-level dips and obscure feats from sources even I haven't heard of, and then it's a matter of "pshaw, I'll homerule that out." The way I see it, Ftr20 with Vow of Poverty-equivalent bonuses is as plainclothes as it gets.

(EDIT: Actually, I did explicitly state I was using a character with Vow of Poverty. Man! Sometimes I can't keep track of myself. With the time I put in compiling the data and working out the statistics, you'd think I'd have covered all the basics first.)

P.S. I greatly prefer your extra strike version.

crusaderjim
2011-06-10, 08:47 AM
I updated the Extra Strike and a few other class abilities. I'm looking for something for 3rd level and 19th level, but I'm not sure what. I might go with an improved initiative style ability, like the duelist or swashbuckler (don't remember which one has it). Any suggestions from the rest of the playground?

Hiro Protagonest
2011-06-10, 12:51 PM
I'm using this.

Seems a bit overpowered, there's a reason why Time Stands Still is an excellent maneuver.

crusaderjim
2011-06-11, 08:32 AM
The point is to make the fighter able to compete with wizards, clerics, druids, and sorcerers, which will result in them being overpowered compared to their previous form (and some other classes). I also like to revamp classes while keeping their original feel intact, otherwise I would just add a few class abilities and make fighters learn maneuvers as they progress in level.

But that's already been done, it's called the warblade, and there's no reason to make the warblade again. So yes, the extra strike feature does seem overpowered, and at lower levels it is, but when the wizard is breaking worlds with his magic and the cleric is outfighting the [original] fighter, having the ability to smack your foes around a few more times really isn't that bad.

Also updated the OP, giving the fighter the ability to boost his party's initiative bonus (making him even more of a team player) and increasing his defensive capabilities at 19th level. Let me know what you think.

tempestman
2011-06-11, 09:29 AM
Oooh updates! Team Initiative seems pretty solid. A nice bonus that caps out at +10 (which is pretty high, but it's whatever). Battlefield Juggernaut could probably be more original, but it is nice that it serves as a booster to two other class abilities.

I would alter the Juggernaut ability slightly, perhaps keeping the Extraordinary Defense Boost, but then make the secondary ability boost the DCs to resist special attacks like bull rush, overrun, grapple, sunder, and whatnot. Don't know what the DC boost should, either 1/2 the fighter's level (but then again, that will end up being a +10 boost) or doubling the bonus from the appropriate modifier (which for most of them are Strength, if I'm not mistaken).


Seems a bit overpowered, there's a reason why Time Stands Still is an excellent maneuver.

I don't understand why people are picking apart the boosts to the effectiveness of martial classes when they are far outclassed by spellcasters. There is no way that a fighter (even this one) could stand against a wizard in a fair fight without some extremely lucky rolls.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-06-11, 10:37 AM
The point is to make the fighter able to compete with wizards, clerics, druids, and sorcerers, which will result in them being overpowered compared to their previous form (and some other classes). I also like to revamp classes while keeping their original feel intact, otherwise I would just add a few class abilities and make fighters learn maneuvers as they progress in level.

But that's already been done, it's called the warblade, and there's no reason to make the warblade again. So yes, the extra strike feature does seem overpowered, and at lower levels it is, but when the wizard is breaking worlds with his magic and the cleric is outfighting the [original] fighter, having the ability to smack your foes around a few more times really isn't that bad.

Fair enough, a wizard can beat a fighter without any blasting even, by using obscuring mist and extended greater invisibility to hide himself, then just laying on buff spells like bull's strength, haste, keen edge, and Tenser's transformation.

Gideon Falcon
2011-06-11, 11:50 AM
Actually, that example is one in which this fighter could still win. Just get pierce magical protection, blind fight, and magic items that replicate haste, bull's strength, Tenser's transformation, etc. That's also what the booster mages are for.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-06-11, 12:53 PM
Actually, that example is one in which this fighter could still win. Just get pierce magical protection, blind fight, and magic items that replicate haste, bull's strength, Tenser's transformation, etc. That's also what the booster mages are for.

Those were examples. The wizard could also use fly and a ranged weapon, combined with cat's grace, greater invisibility, and Tenser's transformation.

Lord_Gareth
2011-06-11, 12:55 PM
Actually, that example is one in which this fighter could still win. Just get pierce magical protection, blind fight, and magic items that replicate haste, bull's strength, Tenser's transformation, etc. That's also what the booster mages are for.

Dominate Monster would like a word. So would the various wall spells, Summon, Gate, Planar Ally, Polymorph....

Do you see a theme? Oh, and the wizard has the same wealth the fighter does, which he doesn't have to spend compensating for weaknesses. Why? He has none.

Gideon Falcon
2011-06-11, 03:35 PM
I was speaking of the spells specifically listed. In addition, one of the spellsw was Tenser's Transformation, which cancels spellcasting. I wasn't saying that fighters can beat wizards, I'm just saying that was a somewhat poor example.

crusaderjim
2011-06-11, 07:19 PM
Any feedback on the actual class features? Not to complain, but the threads about the revamp, not how many different ways a wizard can turn a fighter into a red stain.

Lord_Gareth
2011-06-11, 11:07 PM
Honestly, I'd say this still leaves fighters at t5. I mean, yes, their native power level has gone higher, but they haven't actually gained any versatility. They still only fight. Consider granting them some morale-bonus type effects in the form of auras, or maybe marshal or white-raven style action-granting.

Also, all of those class features that have me make a single attack as a full-round action? Yeah, those are never seeing use. Ever.

crusaderjim
2011-06-13, 07:03 AM
Honestly, I'd say this still leaves fighters at t5. I mean, yes, their native power level has gone higher, but they haven't actually gained any versatility. They still only fight. Consider granting them some morale-bonus type effects in the form of auras, or maybe marshal or white-raven style action-granting.

Also, all of those class features that have me make a single attack as a full-round action? Yeah, those are never seeing use. Ever.

Make some suggestions and I'll look into using them. And while the actions may require a full-round action to use, the extra strikes are still made with them, so you can use overpowering attack followed by several extra strikes.

I am going to rework overpowering attack though to make it worth using. Once I finish writing up a dungeon for my players (not that you guys really wanted to know about that I'm sure).

mamothpriest
2011-06-15, 12:51 AM
I personally love this fix. However I think that having, in essence, time stands still whenever you want might be a little hard for most DMs to accept. I mean, I'm sure there are ways in existence to pull that sort of thing off, but it's usually a little more work :tongue:

I think if the bonus attacks could be pulled back to maybe 3 bonus attacks on a full attack action and 1 extra attack on a standard action it may be more reasonable (and easier to swallow) for most DMs

I also second the idea about getting to pick which two saves take the good progression. That simple bit of customization can really change the feel of the character, not only for you, but in the eyes of your whole party