Suggestions for a Necromancer Orphan Matron [NPC]

[Shadowknight12]

I'm DMing a game and I have to stat lots and lots and lots of NPCs that may or may not actually see combat. So I decided to look for suggestions in this forum if I ever draw a blank on how to bring a concept to realisation.

The core concept is of a very old elven woman who runs an orphanage and is quite possibly the kindest and warmest person alive. She's also a powerful necromancer. So I'm looking for ideas on how to build her and any suggestions you might feel would be cool or interesting to have (such as items, for example).

These are the core concepts I have so far:

Alignment: Lawful Good or Neutral Good.
Age Category: Venerable.
Race: Homebrewed (Take an elf, move the Dex bonus to Int and eliminate the Con penalty, no LA).
Level: 15, 16 or 17.
Aspects of necromancy she will not touch: Undeath, soul trapping/moving, 'unwholesome' debuffs (fear, poison, disease), anything related to fiends or the Lower Planes.
Aspects of necromancy she favours: Death effects, level drain, ability damage/drain, exhaustion/fatigue effects.

As a DM, I've told my players that I'm pretty flexible with houseruling things (like alignment restriction, requirements, etc), so assume this applies to NPC creation as well. Also, I've relaxed alignment for a lot of things. As a guideline, assume it's only [Evil] if it relates or originates from evil deities, fiends and other entities of pure, elemental evil.

Undead are not necessarily evil (they retain the alignment they had in life), she just doesn't like "unwholesome" things (like disease and poison, for example). It's more of an aesthetic dislike than a moral one (much like some people would find medical work to be 'icky').

Personality-wise, this woman is an elderly grandmother with a great love for children and a strong sense of propriety (almost Victorian era, to give you a rough idea). She's the kind of person you might find sipping tea surrounded by a well-kept garden and speaking with a posh British accent, not spreading terror and commanding an undead army.

What I'm looking for:


Base Class.
At least one PrC.
Suggestions for spells to cast often.
Feat suggestions.
Item suggestions.
Other suggestions you might want to share, especially RP-wise, or ideas to flesh out/bring out/improve her concept.


My tentative concepts:


Focused Necromancer/Incantatrix (banning Evocation, Enchantment, Illusion and yes, Conjuration).
Dread Necromancer.
Archivist.
Focused Necromancer/Archivist/Mystic Theurge.


Thanks in advance!

[Rejakor]

Unless you're really going for a theme, archivist or focused necromancer are your best bets.

DN is very much 'melee general of undeath', and while the negative touch is very 'witchey', she'd be very weak under the stipulations you have placed. Still, a archivist or wizard would be doing other, wizardey or archivistey things that it sounds like you don't want.


I'd go focused specialist necromancer, and then a homebrewed prestige class, or something out of 3.tome... the classes in libris mortis for necromancers are mostly 'hur hur I am master of undead and turn myself into a skeleton' kind of thing and nothing else is really useful. I probably wouldn't ban evocation because 'FORCE LIGHTNING' is always nice from necromancers, especially older ones. Other than that, it's basically just spell selection and you look like you could handle that.

[Shadowknight12]

Ahh, see, that's what I wanted to know. I've read the DN class enough to get a general idea of what it does, but I've never seen it in play, so I wasn't sure exactly what its forte was.

I was considering going for Focused Necromancer/Master Specialist. Sure, she buffs any undead allies around her when she casts a necromancy spell, but that can be fluffed away by saying that she's so powerful that she "oozes" death magic, thereby unwittingly empowering allied undead.

I'm drawing a blank on spells, though. So far I have Slay Living, Finger of Death, Circle of Death, Enervation and Waves of Exhaustion. That seems like an awfully small list of spells. I suppose I could ban Conjuration instead of Evocation and get some force effects. Or maybe cold instead, to go with the theme.

Thanks for the suggestions!

[Fable Wright]

Ahh, see, that's what I wanted to know. I've read the DN class enough to get a general idea of what it does, but I've never seen it in play, so I wasn't sure exactly what its forte was.

I was considering going for Focused Necromancer/Master Specialist. Sure, she buffs any undead allies around her when she casts a necromancy spell, but that can be fluffed away by saying that she's so powerful that she "oozes" death magic, thereby unwittingly empowering allied undead.

I'm drawing a blank on spells, though. So far I have Slay Living, Finger of Death, Circle of Death, Enervation and Waves of Exhaustion. That seems like an awfully small list of spells. I suppose I could ban Conjuration instead of Evocation and get some force effects. Or maybe cold instead, to go with the theme.

Thanks for the suggestions!
If you ban Conjuration after all, there's the howling chain 6th level evocation spell to consider... which, honestly, works. For a debuffer/SoD spellcaster, here are the spells I would choose for all of the levels (From Core/PHB II/SC) (Note: Not all are necromancy. Not all may be from the Wiz/Sor spell list at the right level, though I tried to keep it there; I had these on hand for a homebrew project I was trying out, and they seemed to be appropriate):

Level 1: Ray of Enfeeblement, Cause Fear
Level 2: Stolen Breath, Ray of Weakness, Curse of Impending Blades, Shadow Spray, Scare, Blindness/Deafness
Level 3: Ray of Exhaustion, Mass Curse of Impeding Blades, Bestow Curse
Level 4: Enervation, Burning Blood, Greater Rebuke, Starvation, Fear
Level 5: Night's Caress, Wrack, Waves of Fatigue, Doomtide, Magic Jar
Level 6: Fleshshiver, Ray of Entropy, Eyebite, Flesh to Stone, Opalescent Glare, Slay Living, Howling Chain
Level 7: Evil Glare, Waves of Exhaustion, Power Word Blind, Finger of Death

[Coidzor]

Fell Drain metamagic feat + Magic Missile or any of the magic missile descended spells. Fairly potent energy drain vehicle. Perhaps too potent, but I'll leave that to your judgment.

[deuxhero]

Why would mindless undead retain their alignment? Shouldn't they be true neutral like any other mindless creature? What does this mean for bodies that never were living beings (Fabricate+stone to flesh, though Wish works if you are willing to blow XP)?


I think using undead as laborers for cash (or even just to run the orphanage) would be an interesting character concept, though undead are off limits.

[Shadowknight12]

If you ban Conjuration after all, there's the howling chain 6th level evocation spell to consider... which, honestly, works. For a debuffer/SoD spellcaster, here are the spells I would choose for all of the levels (From Core/PHB II/SC) (Note: Not all are necromancy. Not all may be from the Wiz/Sor spell list at the right level, though I tried to keep it there; I had these on hand for a homebrew project I was trying out, and they seemed to be appropriate):

Level 1: Ray of Enfeeblement, Cause Fear
Level 2: Stolen Breath, Ray of Weakness, Curse of Impending Blades, Shadow Spray, Scare, Blindness/Deafness
Level 3: Ray of Exhaustion, Mass Curse of Impeding Blades, Bestow Curse
Level 4: Enervation, Burning Blood, Greater Rebuke, Starvation, Fear
Level 5: Night's Caress, Wrack, Waves of Fatigue, Doomtide, Magic Jar
Level 6: Fleshshiver, Ray of Entropy, Eyebite, Flesh to Stone, Opalescent Glare, Slay Living, Howling Chain
Level 7: Evil Glare, Waves of Exhaustion, Power Word Blind, Finger of Death

Oh, hey, that's a great list! That's pretty much what I was looking for. And I can make her take Slay Living as a 5th level spell as per Expanded Spellbook too, which means that she can use it without her being too high level. Curses, too, I had completely forgotten about those. Curses are cool. Howling chain, too, that's actually a pretty nice spell. Very apt, too. Thanks for the suggestions!


Fell Drain metamagic feat + Magic Missile or any of the magic missile descended spells. Fairly potent energy drain vehicle. Perhaps too potent, but I'll leave that to your judgment.

That's actually funny, since for the longest time I assumed that victims of a Fell Drain spell rose as wights if they died. But I just looked it up and they don't! That makes it a great metamagic feat for her, particularly for the [Force] effects I'm considering.


Why would mindless undead retain their alignment? Shouldn't they be true neutral like any other mindless creature? What does this mean for bodies that never were living beings (Fabricate+stone to flesh, though Wish works if you are willing to blow XP)?


I think using undead as laborers for cash (or even just to run the orphanage) would be an interesting character concept, though undead are off limits.

Mindless anything are True Neutral in my game, yes, but remember that in ordinary D&D they're Always (Something) Evil for no reason whatsoever (other than the fact that 3.5e can't make up its mind on whether negative energy is evil or not). I simply didn't think it was worth mentioning.

A corpse that was never alive in my campaign is exactly the same as an ordinary corpse for the purposes of Animate Dead and other mindless undead (I was asked by a player how mindless creatures like skeletons and zombies can obey orders as if they were constructs, when lacking a mind and a soul means that they shouldn't actually obey any sort of command, so I ruled that just like a construct is animated by an elemental spirit, mindless undead are animated by negative energy spirits). It wouldn't work, however, for Create Undead and other magic that creates sentient beings (such as spectres, ghouls, wraiths and the like).

Hmmmm, I suppose that undead without inescapable cravings or diet dependencies (and who don't look too grisly) would make for adequate helpers. The main problem is that this list is awfully narrow. According to Libris Mortis, potential candidates would be Crypt Chanter, Ghost, Swordwraith and maybe Hooded Pupil.

...

All of a sudden, I got the mental image of an orphanage staffed by the undead. Swordwraiths act as guards, crypt chanters sing the children to sleep, ghosts watch over them and hooded pupils take care of tasks that the incorporeal staff can't perform.

This orphanage just became a whole lot more interesting. Thanks for the suggestion, actually! This ought to be interesting to flesh out...

[deuxhero]

Mindless beings (Go with Skeletons, zombies leave rotten flesh behind) don't have bloodlust or nutritional needs.

Undead follow orders by magic control. There is no "spirit" (which is slavery and does make it evil)

[Zale]

So no summoning spells?

Also, I think those kids may be a little frightened of the undead skeletons tucking them in. :smallconfused:

[deuxhero]

Not if they been accustomed to them. It's not like they have a fear aura.

[Honest Tiefling]

Many people do not like slaymates for the 'punny' name, but it or any other undead child might be suitable for this place. The slaymate does, after all, keep people from trying to dismantle the help. I think I could see this necromancer take pity on one and try to keep him/her out of situations no child, undead or no, should ever be in. Like combat or used to make an army instead of being near toys.

As for the kids...I think some might get used to the idea, if they were raised around it. Through I think the skeletons would need to wear clothes. Even if they are mindless, the children might need to tell them apart. And it could be annoying to have to repeatedly tell children that just because the help runs around without pants does not mean they get to as well.

Some skeletal animals for pets would not go amiss, nor would a larger undead for the gentle giant cliche. Kids love things they can ride around on, through that might be a bit too rambunctious for miss prim and proper.

[Shadowknight12]

Mindless beings (Go with Skeletons, zombies leave rotten flesh behind) don't have bloodlust or nutritional needs.

Undead follow orders by magic control. There is no "spirit" (which is slavery and does make it evil)

No, but they look like corpses. If you wouldn't let a child see an ordinary corpse, why would you let them see one that moves and does things? Still, I suppose that a completely-covered skeleton could be used to perform very specific, very simple tasks.

It's never specifically stated that. In fact, if one looks up Command Undead, it specifically says "Your commands are not telepathic. The undead creature must be able to hear you." Which means that they are actual orders, which means that something must be able to hear it and something must interpret its meaning. Not to mention the fact that it needs to understand certain concepts like "attacking" and "following." How does it know what 'walking' is? How does it know which way to hold a sword? Something must give it some semblance of an intellect or instinct to comprehend reality (since it has a Charisma and a Wisdom score, it is capable of perceiving reality and understanding the difference between itself and things that are not itself, which means that these abilities must come from somewhere), and in the Golem entry, we're told that you can use a spirit to animate a mindless automaton that acts basically the same way a skeleton or a zombie act. Sounds like a good explanation to me!

And it needn't be slavery. You can bargain with spirits. Remember the Spirit Shaman class? That's basically their shtick.


So no summoning spells?

Also, I think those kids may be a little frightened of the undead skeletons tucking them in. :smallconfused:

I don't think so. If my players insist on hanging around her when a fight breaks out, I don't want her to be able to conjure a monster and solve everything. I prefer that she makes a token contribution to the party via force attacks or, if there is a multitude low-level critters about, with death attacks on the weaker ones.

Yeah, unless they're like, completely clothed from head to toe.


Not if they been accustomed to them. It's not like they have a fear aura.

Eh. A skeleton is still firmly rooted in the Uncanny Valley. And they're also not that useful, what with their mindlessness and all that. Still, like I said, I might use a couple for very basic tasks.


Many people do not like slaymates for the 'punny' name, but it or any other undead child might be suitable for this place. The slaymate does, after all, keep people from trying to dismantle the help. I think I could see this necromancer take pity on one and try to keep him/her out of situations no child, undead or no, should ever be in. Like combat or used to make an army instead of being near toys.

As for the kids...I think some might get used to the idea, if they were raised around it. Through I think the skeletons would need to wear clothes. Even if they are mindless, the children might need to tell them apart. And it could be annoying to have to repeatedly tell children that just because the help runs around without pants does not mean they get to as well.

Some skeletal animals for pets would not go amiss, nor would a larger undead for the gentle giant cliche. Kids love things they can ride around on, through that might be a bit too rambunctious for miss prim and proper.

Hah, Slaymates! I was actually wondering what to do with them. So far, I'm thinking that I'm going to go with the "remnants of a tragedy" route and have them be more or less permanent residents in the orphanage (since they will be stuck as children forever). I do agree that she'll see them as actual children and not as tools to increase magical power.

ROFL, yes, you have a very good point there.

Well, it's not that she'd be against the idea of having undead pets or undead gentle giant clichés, but more against children looking at corpses. It's one of those things that old-fashioned morality wouldn't allow children to be in contact with. Unless they're all heavily clothed, of course. But still, since skeletons and zombies have such a limited intellectual capacity (Awaken Undead spell aside), they couldn't be used to do much.

Still, awesome ideas, everyone! Thanks for the input!

[Ravens_cry]

Why would mindless undead retain their alignment? Shouldn't they be true neutral like any other mindless creature? What does this mean for bodies that never were living beings (Fabricate+stone to flesh, though Wish works if you are willing to blow XP)?

I houserule that they have the alignment of the person controlling them. They are tools, the evil in the tool is in the hands of the tool user. If uncontrolled, they revert to True Neutral.



I think using undead as laborers for cash (or even just to run the orphanage) would be an interesting character concept, though undead are off limits.
That's one of my next character ideas actually, but if I go on about the virtues of an undead based Industrial Revolution, I will derail the thread.

[Shadowknight12]

I houserule that they have the alignment of the person controlling them. They are tools, the evil in the tool is in the hands of the tool user. If uncontrolled, they revert to True Neutral.


That's one of my next character ideas actually, but if I go on about the virtues of an undead based Industrial Revolution, I will derail the thread.

I use a more... relaxed version of alignment. Spoiler'd due to possible irrelevance.

Basically, each character defines what they understand as Good, Evil, Law and Chaos and divine classes write their own Codes of Conduct that they themselves choose to adhere to (and then, they only "fall" if the character believes to have failed one of their own tenets, not because an external authority deems it so). Then they have to use the Detect X spells before they can affect their target with stuff like Smite Evil and Holy Word.

Yes, this means that a character can get his Smite Evil to work on anything and a paladin can sacrifice infants to Cthulhu without falling (and they would remain Lawful Good, since alignment labels now are more like 'ideals to which the character aspires' rather than any intrinsic quality). It's not really meant for groups with players who exploit every opportunity to 'win', but I feel it resolves many conflicts inherent to the alignment system and enhances roleplay. In my experience, it has improved the campaigns I've used the new system, but I am fully aware that it's something that just doesn't work with all groups.

Well, I have an idea of what you're espousing and I have a city (which this woman has nothing to do with) where a good portion of the population has willingly sacrificed themselves to become undead in order to protect the city from threats. This actually caused the ascension of a minor deity too, but I'm getting off topic. Anyway, you can spoiler it as I've just done, since I'm interested in hearing other takes on non-evil undead.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, I have an idea of what you're espousing and I have a city (which this woman has nothing to do with) where a good portion of the population has willingly sacrificed themselves to become undead in order to protect the city from threats. This actually caused the ascension of a minor deity too, but I'm getting off topic. Anyway, you can spoiler it as I've just done, since I'm interested in hearing other takes on non-evil undead.
Hmm, interesting take on alignment, but not how I personally would do things. Powers with sources, like many clerics and paladins, seem to me they should be able to be cut off by a higher power even under such a system, in my opinion.


The character I was referring to calls himself a corpse smith. Basically, he animates the dead to do drudge work, simple tasks with simple instructions, like turning a treadwheel or treadmill, manning a pump,or similar work. He is a genuinely nice, honest, fellow, with a kindly, well lined face smelling of wet earth and myrrh and completely bald, including eyebrows and facial hair.
In a homebrew world, I also have a whole city dedicated to this run that is run by Liches. If you die as a resident, your body gets "drafted" into service depending on the time you spent in the city while living. Prisoners for the longest time, non-citizen residents for lesser time, with Citizens serving shortest of all. One becomes a Citizen by interview,showing that you bring something of worth to the city. Maybe you are a skilled craftspersons,politician, philosopher, or even an artist. What the Eternal Council finds of worth can seem arbitrary, but it is apparently all part of a plan, a plan that is going well as the Necropolis is very wealthy and influential thanks to increased per living capita production. Becoming intelligent undead is interestingly enough against the law as it is basically tax evasion. A Citizen of supreme worth might, maybe, be chosen to be a member of the Council. This rarely happens even once a human generation though.

[Shadowknight12]

Hmm, interesting take on alignment, but not how I personally would do things. Powers with sources, like many clerics and paladins, seem to me they should be able to be cut off by a higher power even under such a system, in my opinion.


The character I was referring to calls himself a corpse smith. Basically, he animates the dead to do drudge work, simple tasks with simple instructions, like turning a treadwheel or treadmill, manning a pump,or similar work. He is a genuinely nice, honest, fellow, with a kindly, well lined face smelling of wet earth and myrrh and completely bald, including eyebrows and facial hair.
In a homebrew world, I also have a whole city dedicated to this run that is run by Liches. If you die as a resident, your body gets "drafted" into service depending on the time you spent in the city while living. Prisoners for the longest time, non-citizen residents for lesser time, with Citizens serving shortest of all. One becomes a Citizen by interview,showing that you bring something of worth to the city. Maybe you are a skilled craftspersons,politician, philosopher, or even an artist. What the Eternal Council finds of worth can seem arbitrary, but it is apparently all part of a plan, a plan that is going well as the Necropolis is very wealthy and influential thanks to increased per living capita production. Becoming intelligent undead is interestingly enough against the law as it is basically tax evasion. A Citizen of supreme worth might, maybe, be chosen to be a member of the Council. This rarely happens even once a human generation though.


Oh, they can be cut off. It's just that it varies a lot on the setting in question and the individual god. Also, I'm of the mind that (once again, depending on the setting in question) some gods just don't care about low-level servants. The higher level you are, the more your god starts to monitor you and plot how to use you as a pawn to achieve its goals. But it all boils down to "Up to the DM."

Hah, that's a really nice take on an industrial society. I think the character you described is very inspirational, and I'd love to borrow some of his aspects with your permission.

I really really like the distinction between mindless and intelligent undead you made, and I think it's superb, because I did the same for my city, only in the exact opposite direction. In my homebrewed city, intelligent undead are the norm, and they're the only capable warriors, since mindless undead are incapable of following complex orders, lack powers of their own and are all-around fairly useless against cunning foes. So raising mindless undead is forbidden because you're wasting a perfectly good corpse for such a lousy end. Then there's a strong culture of honour and sacrifice, by becoming undead you are giving up an intrinsic part of who you are, and your hopes of leading a normal life in order to protect the city (I'm playing up the fundamental difference between being alive and undead here, so being undead isn't a walk in the park). Furthermore, most intelligent undead have feeding requirements, and so many of the living have to willingly allow those undead to feed from them in order to sustain them (and although there are ways to make it pleasurable or at least not painful, they are still nasty things, like energy and ability drain). It's a very... peculiar society.

And what drew my attention was how in your case, the city was "in times of peace" while mine was "in times of war" and how two completely divergent philosophies emerged from those two opposite situations.

I don't think I can borrow your idea for my current homebrewed setting (too post-apocalyptic for such a peaceful and orderly society), but man, I really like it. :smalltongue:

And who rules the upper echelons of that society? Intelligent undead (the allure of living forever must have its adherents, and they're upper class, so "tax exemption" could be justified) or living folks?

[Ravens_cry]

Oh, they can be cut off. It's just that it varies a lot on the setting in question and the individual god. Also, I'm of the mind that (once again, depending on the setting in question) some gods just don't care about low-level servants. The higher level you are, the more your god starts to monitor you and plot how to use you as a pawn to achieve its goals. But it all boils down to "Up to the DM."
Remember, with great power comes great responsibility, on both parts. Such a system needs players willing and able to take a Fall, literally, if their character does something against said characters morals. It also requires good control on the DM to not be arbitrary about such things. I mean under such a system a DM could say "Well, your god doesn't want you to do that thing that your god usually likes, so Fall, <expletive redacted/>."


Hah, that's a really nice take on an industrial society. I think the character you described is very inspirational, and I'd love to borrow some of his aspects with your permission.

I really really like the distinction between mindless and intelligent undead you made, and I think it's superb, because I did the same for my city, only in the exact opposite direction. In my homebrewed city, intelligent undead are the norm, and they're the only capable warriors, since mindless undead are incapable of following complex orders, lack powers of their own and are all-around fairly useless against cunning foes. So raising mindless undead is forbidden because you're wasting a perfectly good corpse for such a lousy end. Then there's a strong culture of honour and sacrifice, by becoming undead you are giving up an intrinsic part of who you are, and your hopes of leading a normal life in order to protect the city (I'm playing up the fundamental difference between being alive and undead here, so being undead isn't a walk in the park). Furthermore, most intelligent undead have feeding requirements, and so many of the living have to willingly allow those undead to feed from them in order to sustain them (and although there are ways to make it pleasurable or at least not painful, they are still nasty things, like energy and ability drain). It's a very... peculiar society.

And what drew my attention was how in your case, the city was "in times of peace" while mine was "in times of war" and how two completely divergent philosophies emerged from those two opposite situations.

I don't think I can borrow your idea for my current homebrewed setting (too post-apocalyptic for such a peaceful and orderly society), but man, I really like it. :smalltongue:

And who rules the upper echelons of that society? Intelligent undead (the allure of living forever must have its adherents, and they're upper class, so "tax exemption" could be justified) or living folks?
Go right ahead, ideas are meant to be shared. I am happy you desire to use my ideas. As for why I chose my take on the intelligent verses unintelligent undead, you hit it on the nail with it being an industrial society. Undead are basically used the way we use engines, motors, or at most complex, industrial robots. To use intelligent undead this way would be slavery, something the Necropolis prides itself about abstaining from. As for who runs the place, ultimate authority is invested in the Eternal Council, but more and more of the day to day business is done by a bureaucracy, staffed by Citizens, which are generally living people. It is a Lawful Neutral city to the core. It is not a utopia, there are those, both for and against undead, who find it distasteful, even heretical, problems can take a long time to trickle up to the top and be noticed, and spots of corruption are starting to appear,a lot of crafters in other nations have been put out of business by the flow of cheap goods, but all in all, it is a clean, wealthy, cosmopolitan city of arts, of business, of science, of magic.