A Few Questions About Master Spellthief

[Elric VIII]

1)The feat lets your Spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane casting classes for the maximum spell level you can steal, but it does not mention them stacking for the total amount of levels you can store. Does this mean that you must always use the spell the next round or lose it?

2)Does the stacking of arcane classes extend to PrCs that advance arcane classes (e.g. - Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer X, advancing Wizard)?

3)Assuming that 2 is true, does the fact that the feat sets your caster level equal to the sum of all arcane classes mean that it cancels out the CL penalty of Unseen Seer without the need for Practiced Spellcaster?

4)Would the feat's stacking of levels to determine CL work to offset the Spellgifted trait?

5)And, since it may come up on this character if I ever get a chance to play it: Is there a way to get Precise Shot (or a similar effect) without spending a feat on Point-Blank Shot?

[Starbuck_II]

1)The feat lets your Spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane casting classes for the maximum spell level you can steal, but it does not mention them stacking for the total amount of levels you can store. Does this mean that you must always use the spell the next round or lose it?

2)Does the stacking of arcane classes extend to PrCs that advance arcane classes (e.g. - Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer X, advancing Wizard)?

3)Assuming that 2 is true, does the fact that the feat sets your caster level equal to the sum of all arcane classes mean that it cancels out the CL penalty of Unseen Seer without the need for Practiced Spellcaster?

4)Would the feat's stacking of levels to determine CL work to offset the Spellgifted trait?

5)And, since it may come up on this character if I ever get a chance to play it: Is there a way to get Precise Shot (or a similar effect) without spending a feat on Point-Blank Shot?

Precise shot is a +1 enhancement bonus for bows.

[Elric VIII]

Precise shot is a +1 enhancement bonus for bows.

Is there a way to get it to work with wands?

[Greenish]

Is there a way to get it to work with wands?Yes: use wands of spells with an attack roll.

[Elric VIII]

Yes: use wands of spells with an attack roll.

What I mean is: Is there any way to get the +1 enhancement property to somehow work for a wand or is there a way to get precise shot with wands(while taking at most one feat)?


Basically, there's only enough room left in my build for 4 of the following: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Craft Wand, TWF, or Double Wand Wielder.

I figure that there is more likely to be a way to get a Precise Shot ability rather than finding a way to cast spells from 2 wands/turn without TWF/Double Wand Wielder.

Although, how much of a problem is firing into melee anyway?

[AtwasAwamps]

What I mean is: Is there any way to get the +1 enhancement property to somehow work for a wand or is there a way to get precise shot with wands(while taking at most one feat)?


Basically, there's only enough room left in my build for 4 of the following: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Craft Wand, TWF, or Double Wand Wielder.

I figure that there is more likely to be a way to get a Precise Shot ability rather than finding a way to cast spells from 2 wands/turn without TWF/Double Wand Wielder.

Although, how much of a problem is firing into melee anyway?

Buy a weapon that has the precise shot enchantment. Attach a wand chamber. Victory achieved.

[Elric VIII]

Buy a weapon that has the precise shot enchantment. Attach a wand chamber. Victory achieved.

The Precise Shot enhancement says arrows fired or the weapon itself (if thrown) gains the benefit. Would this apply to wands contained within?

[CodeRed]

Precise Shot the feat works with any ranged weapon or weaponlike-spell (aka one that requires an attack roll). This is explained right before the feats section in Complete Arcane.

As to the Wand Chamber on a ranged weapon with Precise Shot? I don't think it would by RAW as the enchantment says it applies specifically to attack rolls made with the weapon. RAW is as far as you can get on these boards as it's our only common ground between gaming groups but I don't see a Precise Crossbow or somesuch working with a wand chamber as being broken or OP (You are spending a decent amount of money to do so). Run it by the DM would be my answer.

[dextercorvia]

2. I don't believe so. An arcane spellcasting class is one that grants arcane spellcasting rather than one that just advances it.

3. Some will say yes because of the most beneficial order thing, but this is actually different. You normally take your CL to be the level in the arcane spellcasting class. This allows you to add all of your ASL's together on that step. Then you apply bonuses and penalties in the most beneficial order.

[Elric VIII]

2. I don't believe so. An arcane spellcasting class is one that grants arcane spellcasting rather than one that just advances it.

Alright, so is there anything that elucidates whether this combined level influences the maximum spell levels retained?


3. Some will say yes because of the most beneficial order thing, but this is actually different. You normally take your CL to be the level in the arcane spellcasting class. This allows you to add all of your ASL's together on that step. Then you apply bonuses and penalties in the most beneficial order.

I have to agree with this, as it seems that CL is the base value to be altered and must be determined first.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

1)The feat lets your Spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane casting classes for the maximum spell level you can steal, but it does not mention them stacking for the total amount of levels you can store. Does this mean that you must always use the spell the next round or lose it?

RAW, you are SOL for stealing higher leveled spells and actually keeping them. So, if a Spellthief 3/Wizard 6 stole a 4th level spell, he wouldn't be able to hold it at all and it would just be gone, but he could steal and use any 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spells he stole assuming space permitting.

I can't speak to how common it is, but there has been frequent discussions about allowing a Master Spellthief to hold slots as a Spellthief of his caster level. In all of the real life games I've played (and run), that's been the case when asked, but it strictly speaking a houserule.


2)Does the stacking of arcane classes extend to PrCs that advance arcane classes (e.g. - Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer X, advancing Wizard)?

I believe the answer is "yes," by RAW. Wait for Curmudgeon to double check it, though.


3)Assuming that 2 is true, does the fact that the feat sets your caster level equal to the sum of all arcane classes mean that it cancels out the CL penalty of Unseen Seer without the need for Practiced Spellcaster?

Assuming you can choose when you apply class features and feats in the most beneficial order for you, then yes. I want to say that that is RAW, but I can't find the relevant text to support me. In any case, again assuming "yes," this does turn Practiced Spellcaster into a +1 CL feat for all spells, which is interesting.


4)Would the feat's stacking of levels to determine CL work to offset the Spellgifted trait?

Not sure on traits, but my money is that it is the same answer as question 3's answer.


5)And, since it may come up on this character if I ever get a chance to play it: Is there a way to get Precise Shot (or a similar effect) without spending a feat on Point-Blank Shot?

There is a weapon quality that has been mentioned. There may also be specific weapons or special qualities that also give Point-Blank Shot. My memory is hazing, but I want to say there is a specific bow somewhere that does give the owner PBS, but I can't for the life me figure out where it is.

EDIT: A clarification on Q2: The note about arcane/divine classes comes up when relating to using something like Divine Oracle to extend out Mystic Theurge's casting past 10. It is wrong not necessarily because Mystic Theurge isn't an arcane or divine class, but because of how prestige classes work when applying their caster level bumps. I realize this doesn't answer the question as to whether or not prestige classes are arcane casting classes or not, but that is where the argument came from, in a way.

[Elric VIII]

Thank you for the helpful answers, Thrice Dead Cat.

I have a feeling that houseruling Master Spellthief to hold higher level spells would not see too much resistance.


I believe the answer is "yes," by RAW. Wait for Curmudgeon to double check it, though.

Does he have his own personal Bat Signal, or do we just wait and hope? :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: I Think, for the time being, I will just grab Knowledge Devotion in place of Precise Shot, since USS has all knowledge skills and a nice 6+Int skill points.

[Zemro]

What I mean is: Is there any way to get the +1 enhancement property to somehow work for a wand or is there a way to get precise shot with wands(while taking at most one feat)?

Well, Complete Mage (Pg 128) has the Rod of Magical Precision. As long as you hold it in at least one hand any ranged attack you make with a spell or SLA does not take the -4 penalty for firing into melee. Additionally, three times per day you can give your spell the ability to ignore concealment and total concealment (though in the case of the latter you must still target the correct square).

All in all it'll run you 12,000g. Most of which I imagine covers the 3/day ability. So maybe you can talk with your DM about getting a cheaper one without tha feature if you wanted (though the effect isn't bad).

[Greenish]

Although, how much of a problem is firing into melee anyway?Not a big one, generally, since you're making touch attacks, and spellthief & unseen seer are medium BAB classes.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Does he have his own personal Bat Signal, or do we just wait and hope? :smallbiggrin:

You could either send him a PM about it or just ask it in the Rules FAQ.


EDIT: I Think, for the time being, I will just grab Knowledge Devotion in place of Precise Shot, since USS has all knowledge skills and a nice 6+Int skill points.

Knowledge Devotion is solid, and, with maxed knowledge skills, you should be able to get the +4 back to-hit back.

[Elric VIII]

Knowledge Devotion is solid, and, with maxed knowledge skills, you should be able to get the +4 back to-hit back.

That was the idea, and skills are always nice and easy to pump, especially if I take Divine Insight as one of my free divination spells.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

That was the idea, and skills are always nice and easy to pump, especially if I take Divine Insight as one of my free divination spells.

Divine Insight is a solid idea if you are planning on also being your groups trapfinder. Just have it up most of the day, either via a high CL wand or with your own slots, then pop it whenever you need to know for certain that there is no trap there.

EDIT: You've probably already seen the guide, but Hunter's Eye is you first choice. Your third really could be anything, but I like the idea of using Healer's Vision (Complete Scoundrel, I want to say) or a little more damage on sneak attacks. Also, if you are the guy busting out wands to heal people, that slot could save you charges!:smallamused:

[dextercorvia]

3. Some will say yes because of the most beneficial order thing, but this is actually different. You normally take your CL to be the level in the arcane spellcasting class. This allows you to add all of your ASL's together on that step. Then you apply bonuses and penalties in the most beneficial order.



Assuming you can choose when you apply class features and feats in the most beneficial order for you, then yes. I want to say that that is RAW, but I can't find the relevant text to support me. In any case, again assuming "yes," this does turn Practiced Spellcaster into a +1 CL feat for all spells, which is interesting.

Actually this reading turns Practiced Spellcaster into a +4 CL feat for all build with at least 4 PrC levels. If you can apply the most beneficial order of stacking before determining the base, then you can have a Wizard5/DivineOracle4, and determine CL by taking 5 from Wizard, applying Practiced Spellcaster bring you up to 9, and then adding in the 4 from DO.

Master Spellthief doesn't come into play during the stacking portion, all it does it let you add more things when you are determining the "base" CL of the character.

[Elric VIII]

Actually this reading turns Practiced Spellcaster into a +4 CL feat for all build with at least 4 PrC levels. If you can apply the most beneficial order of stacking before determining the base, then you can have a Wizard5/DivineOracle4, and determine CL by taking 5 from Wizard, applying Practiced Spellcaster bring you up to 9, and then adding in the 4 from DO.

You're right, that's a very good argument for why it should work the way I want.


Master Spellthief doesn't come into play during the stacking portion, all it does it let you add more things when you are determining the "base" CL of the character.

Yeah, I totally agree here.


Now, it seems to me that, without a bit of houseruling, Master Spellthief is not a very good feat if you plan to prestige at all.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

*snip*


*snip*

As silly as that is, that could be RAW. This is assuming that spellcasting plusses are class features and you can apply feats and class features in the most beneficial way possible. That being said, I highly doubt that it would ever see play at a real table like that. Because, well, +4 to caster level from one feat is stupid good, especially at lower levels with Maser Specialist.

[dextercorvia]

As silly as that is, that could be RAW. This is assuming that spellcasting plusses are class features and you can apply feats and class features in the most beneficial way possible. That being said, I highly doubt that it would ever see play at a real table like that. Because, well, +4 to caster level from one feat is stupid good, especially at lower levels with Maser Specialist.

There is only one place in the determine CL process where you check for Wizard* Class level. If you don't add your Arcane Spellcasting Class levels in when you check for Wizard level, you are SOL.


*Replace Wizard with applicable casting class.

@Elric: If you are houseruling Master Spellthief, don't base it on caster level, but either rule casting advancing PrC's to count as (Arcane) spellcasting classes, or just flat Character level. Chameleons get enough benefit out of MS as it is.

[true_shinken]

It doesn't work with Practiced Spellcaster because it specifically says that you can't get your CL higher than your HD with it.

[dextercorvia]

It doesn't work with Practiced Spellcaster because it specifically says that you can't get your CL higher than your HD with it.

You can have a CL higher than your HD using Practiced Spellcaster, it just has to be applied earlier on. Ranger8 with Practiced Spellcaster and Spell Thematics (Hunter's Eye) casts Hunter's Eye at CL 9.


What I'm saying is you can't use it before you use things that say add your levels in X when determining CL.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Fair enough on the Practiced Spellcaster combo. I can't believe I derped so hard I forgot it had that limitation.:smallredface: