Minor Spellcasting [3.5 Feats] (PEACH)

[Veyr]

This is a series of feats that I think are... interesting. Thoughts appreciated. The idea is to allow classes unrelated to spellcasting to get a little spellcasting on the side.

Cantrips Minor
Prerequisites
Spellcraft 2 ranks
Benefits
You may cast a certain number of 0th-level Arcane spells (Cantrips) per day. Upon taking this feat, you must choose between two options:

You may cast a Cantrip once per day. You must prepare this Cantrip as a Wizard must. You know Read Magic as a Wizard does, and may prepare that with no resources. To prepare any other Cantrip, you must obtain a spellbook; you may prepare any cantrip from the Sor/Wiz list that is scribed in the spellbook as a Wizard would.
You know one Cantrip from the Sor/Wiz list, and may cast it three times per day. You do not need to spend time preparing this Cantrip; 15 minutes spent refreshing yourself after 8 hours of rest is sufficient, as with a Sorcerer.
You may also choose to have your Cantrip's DCs determined either by your Intelligence or your Charisma modifier. The modifier you choose need not be the same one used by the class whose spellcasting style you are emulating.

Your caster level for these Cantrips is always 1. You also treat Spellcraft as always a class skill from now on.

Finally, you may activate Spell Completion items (e.g. Scrolls) as normal for someone capable of casting the spells you can cast, and Spell Trigger items (e.g. Wands) as if all spells you know and/or have either scribed into a spellbook or prepared yourself were on your spell list. You do not gain the benefit of having access to the entire Sor/Wiz list for the sake of Spell Trigger items from this feat, however.

Special
If you have a level in Wizard, you may choose to instead gain an extra Cantrip per day. If you have a level in Sorcerer, you may instead choose to gain an extra Cantrip known. In either case, you may choose to gain the normal benefits of this feat, but if you do the spellcasting from this feat is completely separate from those classes and does not benefit from their caster level.

Special
For the purposes of Prestige Classes that advance spellcasting, you count as "0th-level" in either Wizard (if you chose option #1), or in Sorcerer (if you chose option #2) (if you chose the above options for those who already had levels in these classes, this section does not apply to you). This means if you take a level in a Prestige Class that advances arcane spellcasting, you may apply it to this progression and gain the spells known, spells per day, and caster level of a Wizard 1st or Sorcerer 1st, respectively, plus one extra Cantrip per day (if as a Wizard) or the one extra Cantrip Known (if as a Sorcerer).

If you do so, set your minimum Ability Score to cast spells of a given level, and your Bonus Spell Slots, based on the ability score that sets your Save DCs.

Special
A Binder, Fighter, Monk, Psychic Warrior, or Warblade may select this feat as one of his Bonus Feats. He must still meet all prerequisites for the feat.


Arcana Minor
Prerequisites
Cantrips Minor
Spellcraft 4 ranks
Benefit
If you chose the first option for Cantrips Minor, you gain one 1st-level spell slot per day; you may now prepare 1st-level spells you may have in your spellbook in this slot, as normal for a Wizard.

If you chose the second option for Cantrips Minor, you gain a single 1st-level spell known, plus three 1st-level spell slots per day with which to cast it.

You may not gain Bonus Spell Slots for this casting. You cast these spells with caster level 1st.

Special
If you chose to gain an additional Wizard Cantrip per day from Cantrips Minor, this feat instead gives you an additional 1st-level spell per day. If you chose to gain an additional Sorcerer Cantrip known, this feat instead gives you an additional 1st-level Sorcerer spell known.

Special
If you have advanced your normal Cantrips Minor spellcasting with a Prestige Class as described in that feat, you gain either an additional 1st-level spell per day if as a Wizard, or an additional 1st-level spell known if as a Sorcerer, instead of the usual benefits of this feat.

Special
A Binder, Fighter, Monk, Psychic Warrior, or Warblade may select this feat as one of his Bonus Feats. He must still meet all prerequisites for the feat.

Special
This feat may be taken multiple times; its effects do not stack. Instead, each time this feat is taken, it gives spellcasting of a new level, equal to the number of times the feat has been taken (2nd-level spells the second time the feat is taken, etc.). Additionally, your caster level for the spells granted by Cantrips Minor and Arcana Minor increases by +2 each time, unless you have advanced it already by taking Prestige Classes.

Each time the feat is taken, however, the Prerequisite ranks in Spellcraft increase by 2. Thus, to take the feat a second time and gain 2nd-level spells, you must have 6 ranks in Spellcraft, and to take it a third time and gain 3rd-level spells you must have 8 ranks in Spellcraft.

[Pyromancer999]

It does seem a bit complicated. If you want, you can always take a look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10633246), which has a spell-casting feat.

[Veyr]

I am completely failing to see the relevance of that. These are feats to allow people with levels in non-spellcasting-classes to get a bit of spellcasting. That's a spellcasting class, i.e. exactly what these are trying to avoid.

Also, complicated? I mean, it's a bit wordy (I am verbose), but it's really not that complicated, I don't think.

[Pyromancer999]

I am completely failing to see the relevance of that. These are feats to allow people with levels in non-spellcasting-classes to get a bit of spellcasting. That's a spellcasting class, i.e. exactly what these are trying to avoid.

As I said, take a look at the feat at the bottom.



Also, complicated? I mean, it's a bit wordy (I am verbose), but it's really not that complicated, I don't think.

Some of the wording is confusing.

[Welknair]

Mainly the talk about whether or not the feats mesh with other casting. Though it makes sense, it does take a bit of thought to get through.


I have a triad of feats that I made as part of my Magitech system that do something similar. I actually have a triad for Wizard, Cleric, and Sorcerer. The gist is you take the first of one of the sets and choose three 0-level spells which you can then cast a total of 3 times per day. The second feat in the chain allows you to choose 2 first level spells which you can cast a total of two times per day, and finally the third gives you a single second level spell castable once per day. The CLs start at 1 but increase to 3 once you get the third feat in a chain.

No talk about meshing or anything. You aren't getting a full Wizard's education, you're getting the cliffnotes version. As such if you do eventually become a Wizard, it doesn't work quite the same way.

[Veyr]

As I said, take a look at the feat at the bottom.
D'oh, sorry. Misread that. As for your feat... it may be less complicated, but I think it leaves some important questions unanswered about how it works, especially with other classes and the like.


Some of the wording is confusing.
Specifically?


Mainly the talk about whether or not the feats mesh with other casting. Though it makes sense, it does take a bit of thought to get through.
Hmm... there's a separate Special heading for that. I'm not sure what else I can do to explain that situation.


I have a triad of feats that I made as part of my Magitech system that do something similar. I actually have a triad for Wizard, Cleric, and Sorcerer. The gist is you take the first of one of the sets and choose three 0-level spells which you can then cast a total of 3 times per day. The second feat in the chain allows you to choose 2 first level spells which you can cast a total of two times per day, and finally the third gives you a single second level spell castable once per day. The CLs start at 1 but increase to 3 once you get the third feat in a chain.
3rd-level spell at CL 3? That's a little odd; not impossible or unheard of (the Artificer can pull a similar trick to get Wands of CL 3 Fireball). Anyway, sounds like your feats start better than mine but wind up worse. Sound about right? Thoughts on the difference in balance between the two?


No talk about meshing or anything. You aren't getting a full Wizard's education, you're getting the cliffnotes version. As such if you do eventually become a Wizard, it doesn't work quite the same way.
Mm, fair enough, but I think it's important that these feats can be progressed by PrCs, and then they need rules about how that happens.

[Pyromancer999]

D'oh, sorry. Misread that. As for your feat... it may be less complicated, but I think it leaves some important questions unanswered about how it works, especially with other classes and the like.

What do you mean by that?


Specifically?


Basically, everything in Special sections for both feats.

[Welknair]

3rd-level spell at CL 3? That's a little odd; not impossible or unheard of (the Artificer can pull a similar trick to get Wands of CL 3 Fireball). Anyway, sounds like your feats start better than mine but wind up worse. Sound about right? Thoughts on the difference in balance between the two?


Uhh... The third feat gives you a single second level spell.

But yeah. Mine is more like memorizing a couple of tricks whereas yours is more like taking night classes.

[Veyr]

What do you mean by that?
Well, I'd critique in your thread, but it'd be thread necromancy for me to do that. Bump it (apparently the OP and only the OP is allowed to raise Homebrew threads) and I'll post there.


Basically, everything in Special sections for both feats.
:/ OK, well. That doesn't really help me much. I'm not sure how to word them differently so they don't confuse you. Do you have any particular suggestions?


Uhh... The third feat gives you a single second level spell.
D'oh. My reading comprehension today is awful. Jeez. Sorry about that.


But yeah. Mine is more like memorizing a couple of tricks whereas yours is more like taking night classes.
I really like this analogy.

[Soren Hero]

so..what is the benefit of choosing option 1 over option 2? both options give u one spell to cast, but option 2 lets u cast it three times per day...but with option 1, you get a spellbook, which i presume lets you cast any spell you scribe in there of sufficient level?

and what is the charcter's effective caster level? 1/2 total level? 1/4 total level?

[Veyr]

so..what is the benefit of choosing option 1 over option 2? both options give u one spell to cast, but option 2 lets u cast it three times per day...but with option 1, you get a spellbook, which i presume lets you cast any spell you scribe in there of sufficient level?

and what is the charcter's effective caster level? 1/2 total level? 1/4 total level?
Err... both of those things are spelled out for you in the feat.

On the first, no, you can only prepare and cast cantrips with the initial feat, regardless of choice.

On the second, no, it is statically CL 1st.

[Gamer Girl]

The two feats go through a lot of trouble to give spellcasting to anyone that wants to take a feat or two. As a way for non spellcasters to get a couple spells. But you know there is already a way for nonspellcasters to do this: they can take a single level in a spellcaster class.

If you really want to cast a spell or two and are willing to use up two feat slots...then why not just take a single spellcasting level?

[Seerow]

The two feats go through a lot of trouble to give spellcasting to anyone that wants to take a feat or two. As a way for non spellcasters to get a couple spells. But you know there is already a way for nonspellcasters to do this: they can take a single level in a spellcaster class.

If you really want to cast a spell or two and are willing to use up two feat slots...then why not just take a single spellcasting level?

I'd guess because of this:


This feat may be taken multiple times; its effects do not stack. Instead, each time this feat is taken, it gives spellcasting of a new level, equal to the number of times the feat has been taken (2nd-level spells the second time the feat is taken, etc.). Additionally, your caster level for the spells granted by Cantrips Minor and Arcana Minor increases by +2 each time, unless you have advanced it already by taking Prestige Classes.

For the 3rd feat, you have 2nd level spells, and CL3. for 4 feats, you're up to 3rd level and CL5. As a human you can get up to 7th level spells with just feats by max level. As a class with bonus feats you can get up to 9th level spells. Sure it's only 1 spell known 3 times per day, but that's still pretty nice. It makes for a pretty easy Gish, Fighter 20 with 9th level casting, and still has more than half of his feats to spend on other stuff.


That said, I'm not sure I like how prestige classes interract with this. If I'm reading it right, only the casting granted by the first feat can be progressed with a prestige class. So if you pick up say 3rd level spells with these feats (a 4 feat investment), then use that to enter some gish prestige class.. rather than progressing your spells from there, you start progressing from 0th level wizard, with a bonus spell known or bonus spell per day. But damn if I can think of a better way to handle it.

[Veyr]

I'd guess because of this:
Correct. Also, I didn't design these feats for a particular use; I was actually more curious what people think of the idea, whether it's balanced to give out spellcasting like this (especially with PrC interactions). I appreciate how it is a lot of rules text, and it can get confusing, but ultimately I'm sort of less-interested in that sort of critique than I am interested in thoughts on the actual way it ends up working.


That said, I'm not sure I like how prestige classes interract with this. If I'm reading it right, only the casting granted by the first feat can be progressed with a prestige class. So if you pick up say 3rd level spells with these feats (a 4 feat investment), then use that to enter some gish prestige class.. rather than progressing your spells from there, you start progressing from 0th level wizard, with a bonus spell known or bonus spell per day. But damn if I can think of a better way to handle it.
The intent is that you would take enough of the feats to qualify for the Prestige Class in question, and then stop taking the feats. I.e. it's something a feat tax to save yourself a few class levels. As Gamer Girl mentions, it's probably not a good trade in most cases, but it could be for a Gish, perhaps, or maybe a theurge-type (though they intentionally have to spend their own feats aside from PsyWars).

Speaking of, are there any other appropriate classes that gain Bonus Feats?

[Gamer Girl]

So you can take even more feats to get a higher casting level? Or you could just, well, just, take another level in a spellcasting class.

Using up feats to get spells does not look that useful. You get only a couple spells, but loose a whole feat. So the fighter can now cast light, but looses the chance to take power attack or any other combat feat. Or they could just take one level of a spellcasting class, cast light like four times a day plus have access to lots of other spells and abilities and that any feat they wanted to....


But if this is your thing, you just want to have a bunch of non spellcasters casting a handful of spells while greatly limiting their other abilities, then I'd ask:

1.What about arcane spell failure? Are the characters that that the feat casting the spell just like a normal spellcaster? So if a fighter in full plate armor out of luck?

2.Also do they need to meet the spellcasting requirements such as components, such as a free hand and materials? So again would a fighter with a weapon and a shield bet out of luck?

3.Why even have the wizard spellbook ones? It's a bit odd that they need to study and have a spellbook when they have not taken 'magic class'

4.This might work better rewritten as some sort of spell-like ability. The idea that the character is 'touched' by some magic and gets the effect.

5.Or maybe drop the feat idea and make it a supernatural ability a character can gain another way, such as a replacement class feature or such?

[Veyr]

So you can take even more feats to get a higher casting level? Or you could just, well, just, take another level in a spellcasting class.

Using up feats to get spells does not look that useful. You get only a couple spells, but loose a whole feat. So the fighter can now cast light, but looses the chance to take power attack or any other combat feat. Or they could just take one level of a spellcasting class, cast light like four times a day plus have access to lots of other spells and abilities and that any feat they wanted to....
Fighters have a tendency to run out of decent feats, for one thing. For another, I think options are a good thing. Thirdly, you're not really intended, most of the time, to feat your way to 9s; instead you're supposed to feat your way to 2nd or 3rd level spells and then take something like Abjurant Champion.


But if this is your thing, you just want to have a bunch of non spellcasters casting a handful of spells while greatly limiting their other abilities, then I'd ask:
I greatly disagree with that assessment.


1.What about arcane spell failure? Are the characters that that the feat casting the spell just like a normal spellcaster? So if a fighter in full plate armor out of luck?
This is an excellent question. I will think on it.


2.Also do they need to meet the spellcasting requirements such as components, such as a free hand and materials? So again would a fighter with a weapon and a shield bet out of luck?
Another excellent question. Thinky thoughts time.


3.Why even have the wizard spellbook ones? It's a bit odd that they need to study and have a spellbook when they have not taken 'magic class'
It's supposed to be doing a bit of studying on the side, actually.


4.This might work better rewritten as some sort of spell-like ability. The idea that the character is 'touched' by some magic and gets the effect.
Nope, pretty much exactly what I'm not going for. See answer to the previous question.


5.Or maybe drop the feat idea and make it a supernatural ability a character can gain another way, such as a replacement class feature or such?
Not generic enough; you'd need levels in specifically the class that has the feature to lose.