No books? No wizards.

[zoobob9]

In a realm that I'll be making for a while, its post apocalyptic world, and all of the books like anywhere have been used for firewood (except this one in the mountains or something.) This means that the normal way wizards would gain their power would be non-existent. Obviously there are still sorcerers and other spellcasters, but if someone wanted to be a wizard how would they do this?

One thought that came into my mind was automatically giving wizards the basic premise from the Geometer, but they would still need a teacher or another source to find the tattoos. I've noticed that if this was the only way to do stuff like this, it would be possible to completely get rid of all knowledge of a certain school if I wanted to.

How would you let a Wizard still have access to new spells in this situation?

[Eldariel]

They get 2 spells per level and start with a certain number; original research also goes some ways. They can also research new/old spells for a cost (there are rules for this in PHB, actually) and some feats. Other than that...well, extraplanar sources would probably be their best bet. If they acquire magic for extraplanar communication or even better, travel, that'd go a long way.

[Amnestic]

Eidetic Wizard ACF gives up Scribe Scroll+Familiar and you never need a spellbook.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use Illusion Mastery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionistVariants) and go Shadowcraft Mage, or make a Spellhoarding Kobold etc. etc. and write your spells on your scales instead of in a book.

[HappyBlanket]

I imagine there would be substitutes for books... I mean, I'm not certain the books themselves are magical. A pen and a flat surface should do just fine. Hell, if you're really desperate, blood and skin ought to do the trick. The only thing you'd really need is a teacher... And after your first level, you don't even need that.

...Besides, what Wizard uses his spellbook for firewood? Couldn't someone just research a spell that creates a campfire? Oh screw it, that's not the point.

In any case, the most important thing involved with creating a Wizard is the teacher. So long as there's a way to teach, there's a way to learn.

[big teej]

Eidetic Wizard ACF gives up Scribe Scroll+Familiar and you never need a spellbook.

if you don't mind my asking, what book is this out of?

[Splynn]

I think you could get a pretty cool fluff wizard from making them scribe spells into their skin. Tattoos would work as well, I suppose, but scarification would be pretty awesome.

[Amnestic]

if you don't mind my asking, what book is this out of?

Dragon Magazine #357. Don't think it was ever reprinted anywhere else, but I might be wrong.

[Ankhman]

if you don't mind my asking, what book is this out of?

dragon magazine .. but i don't know which one right now
aunt edith: ah .. swordsaged with a number :)

otherwise - write it on leather or any other rollable material

[Greenish]

Spellshards don't burn.


I think you could get a pretty cool fluff wizard from making them scribe spells into their skin. Tattoos would work as well, I suppose, but scarification would be pretty awesome.There's a PrC that scribes spells to it's skin with scars, the Runescarred Berserker. It's a barbarian PrC though.

[big teej]

Dragon Magazine #357. Don't think it was ever reprinted anywhere else, but I might be wrong.

well bugger, I don't use dragon magazine....

oh well, thanks anyways. sorry for the sidetrack.

on topic.

arnt' there several magic-y books that are immune to destruction?

or rather, very resilient? (the book of infinite spells comes to mind)

[Bobmufin52]

There are rules in Complete Arcane for alternate things for spellbooks for a wizard. I remember some rules for tattoos on yourself and using bones as well (which I would imagine there would be a large amount of, being in a post-apocalyptic world)

[erikun]

The wizard could... make books? There is a craft skill for that, after all, and if you don't have wood pulp available you can still use something similar. Even a poorly bound collection of tanned leather would work just as well.

[tonberrian]

I, for one, would play the wizard that carves arcane formulae on exceedingly large stone tablets. Stone tablets are great for scribing spells.

[big teej]

The wizard could... make books? There is a craft skill for that, after all, and if you don't have wood pulp available you can still use something similar. Even a poorly bound collection of tanned leather would work just as well.

a bit on the 'over-engineering' side of things, but in a similar vein.

inscribe on thin sheets of metal.

there's precedence. the Writ of Iron, from the Malus Darkblade novels.

granted, I imagine a wizard would have less(more?) worry of what they do with writs of iron.

if you fail in your task, they melt down the writ and pour the molten metal down your throat....

oops I've rambled offtopic:smallredface:

[zoobob9]

A common theme is that a wizard would never be stupid enough to burn his spellbook. But after decades and centuries after the apocalypse, wizards stopped teaching people, and all of the knowledge just got lost. And if someone wanted to be a wizard, they start with the 0 level and 1st level etc., but where did they learn them from?

Alternatively, one could be required to see the spell used by a sorcerer, then writing it down somewhere or something.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Even in a post-apocalyptic world, tattooing could easily be done. Even in places of the world that don't have books, you better believe you will still find tattoos. Given the right resources (sugar cane, some form of reed-like plant matter) scrolls could still be made, even though they are relatively fragile.

[Kalim]

There's a feat Wizards can take that requires some ranks in Craft (Tattoos) that lets you scribe spells to your skin as tattoos for a gp cost, similar to writing them into books. I guess you would need a source material from which to copy the spell, though.

There's also an item in MIC that you stick on your forehead to prepare spells, and you can freely store some amount of spell levels in it.

The main issue would be loading spells into these methods of preparation, though you could simply make those forehead gems more common and come pre-loaded with spells.

[CrashTestGenius]

I bet there are lots of rocks lying around. Chisel the spells into rock slabs a la "The Flintstones" and have the strengthy man carry them around for you.

[Aquillion]

In a realm that I'll be making for a while, its post apocalyptic world, and all of the books like anywhere have been used for firewood (except this one in the mountains or something.) This means that the normal way wizards would gain their power would be non-existent. Obviously there are still sorcerers and other spellcasters, but if someone wanted to be a wizard how would they do this?

One thought that came into my mind was automatically giving wizards the basic premise from the Geometer, but they would still need a teacher or another source to find the tattoos. I've noticed that if this was the only way to do stuff like this, it would be possible to completely get rid of all knowledge of a certain school if I wanted to.

How would you let a Wizard still have access to new spells in this situation?The first and most important question is this:

Do you want to adjust the power levels of Wizards with this? That is, do you want them to be roughly as powerful as they were before, just differently-fluffed, or are you trying to use the setting to scale their power back a bit?

That's the most important thing to know, since it affects the kind of advice you'll get. (Whether it's refluffed spellbooks, an excuse to keep things the same way, alternate options within the existing rules, or whatever.)

[zoobob9]

The first and most important question is this:

Do you want to adjust the power levels of Wizards with this? That is, do you want them to be roughly as powerful as they were before, just differently-fluffed, or are you trying to use the setting to scale their power back a bit?

That's the most important thing to know, since it affects the kind of advice you'll get. (Whether it's refluffed spellbooks, an excuse to keep things the same way, alternate options within the existing rules, or whatever.)

I'm actually trying to eliminate them. But if someone in the group is completely set on a wizard then there has to be a way to work one in. But I will limit their power.

Long story short, I'm trying to get rid of all tier 1 classes. This is one I'd have trouble adding in if someone really wanted it.

[Kaeso]

I'm actually trying to eliminate them. But if someone in the group is completely set on a wizard then there has to be a way to work one in. But I will limit their power.

Long story short, I'm trying to get rid of all tier 1 classes. This is one I'd have trouble adding in if someone really wanted it.

I know this is getting off topic, but you'd have to destroy all religions and even the gods themselves to get rid of clerics, and druids are completely impossible to destroy because you can't destroy nature without completely boning your campaign world (if we assume your campaign worlds biology works roughly the same as real world biology). Is it really worth the effort to destroy wizards if you can't do the same with the other tier 1 classes?

[tonberrian]

If you want to say no to wizards, just say there are no wizards. As a DM, it's well within your rights.

As for people dead set on playing wizards? Give them some lemons.

[Croverus]

Yeah, you seem to be going through a lot of effort to get rid of just wizards.

I think we need more information to get a useful answer because a lot of the responses people have given are good ways to just change the fluff and make a wizard still possible. I had a wizard that used bones that he collected. Another wrote his spells on the inside of his cloak. A third guy of mine simply took feats to memorize spells. So there are a lot of ways around not having a spellbook.

Edit: Ninja'd :If you want to get rid of teir 1, then say "No tier one classes, sorry. There aren't any NPCs with levels in teir 1, so you can't have any levels in it."

Hell I made a wizard and played him as a librarian, using his high int to get lots of ranks in all 8 knowledge skills and know about 10 different languages. He didn;tptimize any spells, instead using buffing and cc spells to contribute to the team. He basically knew everything about anything and could speak to most people the party interacted with. He wasn't a legion summoner or fireball slinging blaster, but the party thought he was awesome.

[Greenish]

Hell I made a wizard and played him as a librarian, using his high int to get lots of ranks in all 8 knowledge skills and know about 10 different languages. He didn;tptimize any spells, instead using buffing and cc spells to contribute to the team. He basically knew everything about anything and could speak to most people the party interacted with. He wasn't a legion summoner or fireball slinging blaster, but the party thought he was awesome.So you played a god wizard and thought it was unoptimized? :smalltongue:

[Marnath]

The wizard could... make books? There is a craft skill for that, after all, and if you don't have wood pulp available you can still use something similar. Even a poorly bound collection of tanned leather would work just as well.

This. Even in the extremely unlikely event that all books, everywhere, get burned there are still tens of thousands of people who know how to make them. Plus you don't even need to write it in a book, as others have said.

*edit: if you want to limit the power of clerics and druids, make the shapeshift druid and spontaneous divine cleric alternate versions the only ones available.

[Vizzerdrix]

Tattoos. Of course, this means that to get more spells, wizards gotta be buff! Muscles= extra pages! And of course, this makes taking another wizards "spell book" a gruesome act. And familiars could get tattoos/ help wizards read the ones on their hard to reach areas.

[Divide by Zero]

...didn;tptimize any spells, instead using buffing and cc spells to contribute to the team.

I'm confused. Did you optimize it or not? You seem to be saying two contradictory things here.

[Tetsubo 57]

I would think that in a setting like this, Sorcerers & Warlocks would quickly rise to power. No pesky spellbooks. Or psionic classes.

But you could use runes carved into sticks or a staff. Tattoos as other folks have mentioned. Crystalmancy. One of the Pathfinder classes draws spells from their familiar I believe. There are any n umber of ways around this.

I just find it odd that any spellcaster would let someone touch their most important possession while living. Especially as magic can provide you with a far better source of heat than destroying the book that contains the spells. I have in fact seen a third party spell that produced continuous heat but no light. Very handy. I don't remember what book it was though. Possibly a campaign setting.

[NNescio]

I would think that in a setting like this, Sorcerers & Warlocks would quickly rise to power. No pesky spellbooks. Or psionic classes.

But you could use runes carved into sticks or a staff. Tattoos as other folks have mentioned. Crystalmancy. One of the Pathfinder classes draws spells from their familiar I believe. There are any n umber of ways around this.

I just find it odd that any spellcaster would let someone touch their most important possession while living. Especially as magic can provide you with a far better source of heat than destroying the book that contains the spells. I have in fact seen a third party spell that produced continuous heat but no light. Very handy. I don't remember what book it was though. Possibly a campaign setting.

Core: Prestidigitation.

For longer durations, Endure Elements.

A creature protected by endure elements suffers no harm from being in a hot or cold environment. It can exist comfortably in conditions between -50 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit.

...which technically doesn't produce heat, but still.

[Divide by Zero]

Oh, and the wizard needs to be sure to refer to other characters as "goose-stepping morons" at some point. No points for getting the reference, you all should know it anyway.

[Axinian]

As for people dead set on playing wizards? Give them some lemons.
No! Don't do that! If they're truly dead set on playing a wizard they'll burn your house down with them!

[HappyBlanket]

No! Don't do that! If they're truly dead set on playing a wizard they'll burn your house down with them!

With the lemons!

Anyway, I certainly don't think your players will appreciate such a blunt approach to removing Wizards... I mean, tier 1 isn't by default game breaking, and you're probably doing some significant harm to the game with your approach. But, of course, I don't think that really matters to you. So back to the issue at hand.

As mentioned before, you're better off with the gm-fiat instead of "all writing surfaces have been destroyed." It's just more elegant... Which is weird, because the gm-fiat is usually the least elegant option.

[[CLASSIFIED]]

I'm pretty sure that there were rules somewhere for spellbooks in alternate formats, such as tablets. I can't remember where they are though.

[Philistine]

I'm actually trying to eliminate them. But if someone in the group is completely set on a wizard then there has to be a way to work one in. But I will limit their power.

Long story short, I'm trying to get rid of all tier 1 classes. This is one I'd have trouble adding in if someone really wanted it.

As a DM, it's absolutely within your right to Just Say No to Wizards - and indeed the rest of T1. You do need to make that clear right up front, though.

If a player is "completely set on a wizard" despite this, print off a copy oif the Sorcerer or Psion page from the SRD with the name of the class scratched through and Wizard written over it. Cleric can similarly be replaced with Favored Soul, which has essentially the same fluff, and Druid... can be nuked outright, replaced by Barbarians and/or Rangers, or use both the Spontaneous Casting and Shapeshift variants, which will tone them right down.

[supermonkeyjoe]

Complete Arcane has the rules for alternate spellbooks including Arcane geometry, structures, Tattoos and tokens.

Tokens are the best bet as they include slingstones, finger bones, crossbow bolts, cobblestones, rods, arm bones, skulls, leg bones clubs and staffs as viable tokens for holding spells.

An adult human skeleton could contain 56+ pages of spells +50% if it's a large skeleton, cast animate dead on that sucker and have your spellbook follow you around.

[Fox Box Socks]

In Dark Sun (a world with barely any wood and therefor barely any paper) Wizards stitch their spells into lengths of rope.

[Tetsubo 57]

Core: Prestidigitation.

For longer durations, Endure Elements.


...which technically doesn't produce heat, but still.

But these spells can't do a lot of work. A spell that produces heat can. Think of the the Age of Steam.

[Tetsubo 57]

Core: Prestidigitation.

For longer durations, Endure Elements.


...which technically doesn't produce heat, but still.

But these spells can't do a lot of work. A spell that produces heat can. Think of the the Age of Steam.

[Zale]

Why not just summon a fire elemental and use it to keep warm? :smallconfused:

[thompur]

As the DM, you can have your cake and eat it, too. Many of the suggestions above(tatoos, bones, tablets, etc.) are good ones. But the best way to limit the power of the wizard is to limit the spells available to it. This may require limiting spells to all classes. Maybe the Polymorph spells have been lost, or possibly no one has yet to discover the complex interactions of the somatic and verbal components of the summoning spells. It may take a bit of extra work on your part, but identify the spells you feel are seriously potential game breakers, and ban them. Just because they're published, doesn't mean they have to be allowed.

[Kaeso]

Complete Arcane has the rules for alternate spellbooks including Arcane geometry, structures, Tattoos and tokens.

Tokens are the best bet as they include slingstones, finger bones, crossbow bolts, cobblestones, rods, arm bones, skulls, leg bones clubs and staffs as viable tokens for holding spells.

An adult human skeleton could contain 56+ pages of spells +50% if it's a large skeleton, cast animate dead on that sucker and have your spellbook follow you around.

A walking spellbook that can even defend itself.... that's pretty neat.
Cast some permanent buffs on it and go to town.

[Zale]

As the DM, you can have your cake and eat it, too. Many of the suggestions above(tatoos, bones, tablets, etc.) are good ones. But the best way to limit the power of the wizard is to limit the spells available to it. This may require limiting spells to all classes. Maybe the Polymorph spells have been lost, or possibly no one has yet to discover the complex interactions of the somatic and verbal components of the summoning spells. It may take a bit of extra work on your part, but identify the spells you feel are seriously potential game breakers, and ban them. Just because they're published, doesn't mean they have to be allowed.


Yes.. but "All the books were burned because we ran out of wood." strikes me as.. a bit self defeating.

Why burn the books of wizards when the wizards can provide you with woodless fire?

And more over, how do you manage to take a spellbook from a wizard without them going nuts and atomizing you?


Why not just say that whatever disaster happened caused in-fighting among the wizards, which resulted in the destruction of magical knowledge?

[Aquillion]

I'm actually trying to eliminate them. But if someone in the group is completely set on a wizard then there has to be a way to work one in. But I will limit their power.

Long story short, I'm trying to get rid of all tier 1 classes. This is one I'd have trouble adding in if someone really wanted it.If you don't want people to play wizards, tell them flat out "sorry, no wizards!" In the long run, it's a lot simpler and more direct.

(Also, the fact is, you should probably get rid of Tier 2 classes, too, if you're doing this. Sorcerers aren't that much weaker than wizards, especially if they're well built. The biggest leap in power is between Tiers 2 and 3, not 1 and 2.)

[John Campbell]

Any medium which can be used to record information can be used as a spellbook. My last high-level wizard, for example, had an archive copy of his spellbook that he'd carved in silver-inlaid runes into the black marble walls of the great hall of his stronghold. He was also known to engrave key spells on the plates of his adamantine armor.

In one game, I ran into a tribe of forest giants that, lacking a proper written language, recorded spells as patterns in the fabric of woven tapestries. It's possible to weave plain old letters, too. Or embroider them.

In less exotic examples... "parchment" is not just a fancy old-fashioned word for "paper". It's made from skin, not from wood pulp.

If you want to eliminate wizards, just say, "Sorry, no wizards in this game." It's well within your powers as DM, a lot more effective than trying to do it indirectly, and has a lot fewer unwanted side effects than trying to remove everything that you can write on or with.

[TARDIS]

In addition to tattoos, try stuff like runestaves or canes, or dreamcatchers and voodoo-style fetishes... books are just the 'standard' means of recording spell information, but they needn't be the be all and end all. The important thing is that the wizard be able to focus on the object in question, and memorize the arcane theories and practices behind them, repeatedly. So long as your wizard's got something to carve glyphs and runes into, their spellslinging should be a go.

That's not to say that in a post-apocalyptic world socerers wouldn't be more common than wizards... wizards would probably be a very reclusive or elite group of individuals. Where opportunities for wizardry exist in other worlds, in a post apocalyptic wasteland, most talented youth might only become adepts, or even non-magical medicine men and alchemists. Comparatively, sorcerers will be sorcerers, with or without education, so... there ya go!

[Aquillion]

Also, I forgot the other part:

If you're going to remove wizards, you should just flat-up tell your players "sorry, no wizards in this setting."

If you agree to let someone play a wizard despite that, you should flat-out tell them that you want to nerf wizards somehow. Be extremely upfront about what you're doing. Do not try to justify it in setting terms (except after the fact, once you've already gone over your core out-of-setting reason for it with the player. Even then, it's not as important as you seem to think -- you can adjust the setting however you want; you don't really need a reason to deviate from the books. "Wizards work like this in my world" or "wizards simply don't exist in my world" are fine.)

Clarity is the most important part, though. Make sure you're upfront with your players about what you're changing and why. If you're not, it will only lead to more arguments down the road.

[El Dorado]

I've always liked the idea of alternative spellbooks, particularly tattoos and tokens. The old TSR books depicted wizards who did just this. One wizard stitched copies of her favorite spells into her clothing. Another used spell tokens (small stones, pieces of wood, etc) to record his spells.

[Diarmuid]

Yes.. but "All the books were burned because we ran out of wood." strikes me as.. a bit self defeating.

Why burn the books of wizards when the wizards can provide you with woodless fire?

And more over, how do you manage to take a spellbook from a wizard without them going nuts and atomizing you?


Why not just say that whatever disaster happened caused in-fighting among the wizards, which resulted in the destruction of magical knowledge?

Taking this is step further, why burn the spellbook of the guy who can turn a tiny piece of wood into enough wood for the town to to burn all day?

[Kansaschaser]

;11141722']I'm pretty sure that there were rules somewhere for spellbooks in alternate formats, such as tablets. I can't remember where they are though.

In the Complete Arcane, they give you alternates for spellbooks.


Tattoos
Structures
Tokens
Runes

[PersonMan]

If you want to get rid of wizards, destroying their spellbooks won't work. If you do, you'll still have a bunch of people who can cast Read Magic 4 times a day and are wizards.

[druid91]

And then you have the spellbooks who aren't made of flammable materials.

Such as the Iron plated copper paged notebook.

How do you explain those being "Burned for firewood"