help me prep for my campaign.

[big teej]

greetings playgrounders, especially the DMs amongst you.

as we all know, PCs are annoying little buggers in the sense that it is impossible to prepare for every eventuallity/plan of action they will come up with.


I accept that just fine, however, it would be nice to be prepared for SOME courses of action even if I cannot be prepared for ALL

so I have come to the playground to posit a situation, and I want you to give me as many reactions/courses of action to the situation as you can think of.

if you've ever placed a party in a similar situation (or played through one) by all means share.

here's the idea.
spoilered for length


The party have signed on as caravan guards, the trip is scheduled to take about 2 months.
3 weeks into the journey, the caravan will be attacked by a goblin raiding party* consisting of 1 spell caster of equal level to the party, some worg riders, and a score of standard 1HD gobbo warriors.

I expect the party and the other caravan guards to see them off with little difficulty.

however, the head of the caravan's security is going to strongly insist that the caravan turn back.

the owner of the caravan will overrule any objections and they will press on.

after about another week, the party caravan is going to be attacked by one of two things (the specific encounter is irrelevant, the result will be the same)

1) a much MUCH larger group of goblins (effectively endless)
or
2) something more appropriate to a PC's background.

either way, the caravan is going to be obliterated and the PCs are going to have to run for their lives.

they will be left in the wilderness with little more than whatever's in their backpack. they'll be on their own until they can reach civilization/track down the thing that obliterated the caravant/whatever.

the idea is for the time in the wilds to help bond the party IC and give us a feel for their characters.

this brings me to my important question.

how would YOU in this situation, respond? what sort of plans would you make? what sorts of questiosn would you ask the DM?
etc. etc.


*do you think this is a large enough force to threaten a sizeable caravan? or do I need more grobi?


this brings me to my important question.

how would YOU in this situation, respond? what sort of plans would you make? what sorts of questiosn would you ask the DM?
etc. etc.



relevant information
everyone in the party is going to be 4th level (or ECL 4 if you want to be technical, though I'm not expectign anyone to play with LA)

starting gold is normal: 5,400 gp

if any further information is required, please ask.

thanks in advance for your help.

pre-emptive edit: I'm expecting a party size between 3 and 8 players. so if that factors into your response, there you go.

[Bobby Archer]

The first thing that catches my attention is that the second combat in your game is a loosing situation for the players. You need to be ready for the possibility that the players either won't realize that they're meant to lose or simply won't be willing to give up. Obviously, your best tool in this situation is going to be your own knowledge of your players; if they're the types to understand that not every battle can be won or are willing to beat a strategic retreat, then this may be less of a worry.

Some suggestions, though, to help the players retreat:

Make the first encounter tough enough to be challenging (exactly what you throw at them will depend on how many players you have and what the make-up of the NPC caravan guards is). Instead of the players et al wiping the initial group out, have the raiders retreat once they encounter resistance. The point of the first attack is to suss out the caravan's defenses so they know how many goblins they need to overwhelm it.
When the head of security argues for heading back, his reasoning is that he's seen this kind of attack before and he knows it only presages a bigger assault. The fact that the initial force could have done much more damage if they persisted and his own knowledge that there are many more goblins in the area suggest that they're planning to attack again with much greater numbers. Really have him lean on the fact that the whole caravan will be wiped out if they don't turn back. If he can get one of the PCs to believe him and back him up, so much the better.
During the second attack, give the PCs an out. No player wants to retreat with their tail between their legs, particularly when the lives of innocents are on the line (well, some players would be willing to cut and run, but for the sake of argument...). Instead of it being a decision between "stay and die trying to protect others" and "flee and let everyone die." Let the players have some kind of heroic action they can take that also has the result of saving their lives: drawing off the main body of attackers so that a few wagons or horses can get away, escaping to protect the injured/noncombatants/magical mcguffin from the goblins, anything that makes running away into a heroic act.


How large a caravan this is and what it's transporting are going to be relevant issues, especially if the players want to come up with inventive ways to protect against a second assault.

[big teej]

that's extremely helpful, and I'll post a more detailed reply after dinner,

in the meantime however

the caravan's demise is a foregone conclusion.

I'm more interested in courses of action after the fact.

I.E.
DM: you have successfully evaded capture or killing by the bad guys. you are now out in the wilderness with few supplies and only the equipment you carry with you, you are nearly a month's travel from the closest city you are aware of.

what do you do?

this is sort of the set up here.

[Nashwolfe]

I suspect this will depend very largely on your players and their characters (well duh!)

Let me qualify: The group I play with and sometimes DM are obsessed with preparation; they/we list in great detail what their character is carrying at any one time. So one of my characters has a belt of many pockets and pretty much every gadget or tool ever devised by man/gnome (and some he's devised himself) and another has a very high survival, and walks around with basically his combat gear, a bottle of water and a bedroll: the land will provide whatever else he needs.

So depending on your group this may not be an issue - if your guys pack the kitchen sink, or if you simply have a sensible cleric (*cast* "Here's your food and water for the day, girls") you're fine. If not, you might need the head guard to issue rations or a survival pack ("Keep these with you at all times - these roads are dangerous!").

Additionally, if they're sensible, the party will likely leave their heavy packs on a wagon and just carry their day gear. That's going to mean they probably have to leave them behind.

You'll also need to have a solid mechanism for the party escaping. Fighters etc in full plate with 20' move and hideous stealth aren't going to sneak away. Your cleric or paladin might refuse to leave the caravan to its doom.

I'd suggest splitting the party from the caravan before the attack. Maybe, worried that the goblins will attack again, the head guard sends the party to scout ahead, or perhaps take the parallel road, or take a vantage point on a hill, accompanied by an NPC guide who is tragically killed in a skirmish at the same time as the caravan is overrun - the party can't intervene (and get themselves killed) because they're fighting for their lives.

After that, I like the idea of the party being pursued for a day or two. Force the heavy armour wearers to take it off so they can keep up. Have the party force march to the point of fatigue. Have the half ogre eventually carry the halfling because he just can't keep going any more. All stuff that develops the party. Don't throw them into a tough encounter at this point though :)

At some point your party is going to want some payback. They'll probably need to recruit allies. They'll also probably want to ambush smaller/scout groups of goblins to get intel.

Hmmm, I type a lot when I'm tired; hopefully some of the textwall will be useful :)

tl/dr Sounds like a fun campaign - minf if I steal it :D

[big teej]

a more in depth response I promised, and here it is.


The first thing that catches my attention is that the second combat in your game is a loosing situation for the players. You need to be ready for the possibility that the players either won't realize that they're meant to lose or simply won't be willing to give up. Obviously, your best tool in this situation is going to be your own knowledge of your players; if they're the types to understand that not every battle can be won or are willing to beat a strategic retreat, then this may be less of a worry.
.

given my players, and given the nature of the game, I'll make it clear they're "meant" to run away.

and even then.
I'll tell them "this would be a great time to run away" or "I'm telling you to run" before any PC death occurs.

given that I start every campaign with a speech about "running away is ALWAYS an option/viable strategy/whatever"
I'm not to worried.

their ego's may be the only casualty, but that's okay, because that means they have handed me a goad with which I can prod them for the rest of the campaign.

game stalls? "oh hey, I think -that guy over there- is related to -those goblins that totally kicked your ass wrecked your caravan. go check him out! :smallcool:


Some suggestions, though, to help the players retreat:

Let the players have some kind of heroic action they can take that also has the result of saving their lives: drawing off the main body of attackers so that a few wagons or horses can get away, escaping to protect the injured/noncombatants/magical mcguffin from the goblins, anything that makes running away into a heroic act.



excellent suggestions.
but I"m not quite sure how the 'heroic' examples follow what I've layed out as a foregone conclusion.
and while I like the heroic idea, I'm afraid some different suggestions are needed.

for the record, the following things are foregone conclusions
- the caravan will be obliterated, the only survivors will be the PCs and whatever equipment they carry with them.
- the idea is for the PCs to escape and proceed, having them draw off the majority of the horde leads in directions I'm not after.


How large a caravan this is and what it's transporting are going to be relevant issues, especially if the players want to come up with inventive ways to protect against a second assault.

it's a substantial dwarf trade caravan carrying dwarven goods (mostly Dwarvencraft weapons and armour, along with other items of dwarven make)
I have yet to make up my mind on the size, but the idea is something in the realm of 4-6 wagons and 8 - 12 wagons
the smaller caravan would have 10 guards plus the party, the larger caravan would have closer to 20 guards including the party.

that aside, I'm not sure why it matters how they 'protect themselves'
the obliteration of the caravan is a foregone conclusion, as the enemy forces consist of X baddies.
where X is the number required to pound any defense into the dirt, and jump up and down on it.



thus bringing me back around to my real question.

"You are in the wilderness with only the gear you have with you, the nearest city you know of is weeks away. what do you do?"


EDIT: blood ninjas!! :smalltongue:
at least they have helpful responses



Let me qualify: The group I play with and sometimes DM are obsessed with preparation; they/we list in great detail what their character is carrying at any one time. So one of my characters has a belt of many pockets and pretty much every gadget or tool ever devised by man/gnome (and some he's devised himself) and another has a very high survival, and walks around with basically his combat gear, a bottle of water and a bedroll: the land will provide whatever else he needs.

as of yet, party composition is largely unknown.
I have one skill monkey, I think he's gonna play a bard.
I have one person who's going to play a paladin, this might change after our "paladin code" chat, because I'll fall the hell outa somebody :smalltongue:
I have one player who's attendence is not assured who is going to play a Skaven Blood Magus.
and my girlfriend is going to play a warforged fighter.
anything else is somewhere in the realm of conjecture, wishful thinking, and arbitraryness

I'm also expecting either a party full of newbs or up to an even mix of vets and newbs (all depends on who can play)


If not, you might need the head guard to issue rations or a survival pack ("Keep these with you at all times - these roads are dangerous!").

Additionally, if they're sensible, the party will likely leave their heavy packs on a wagon and just carry their day gear. That's going to mean they probably have to leave them behind.



excellent suggestions. I'll be sure to issue a 'field kit' which will contain a few basics like food.
as for the packs... that is a fair point... I shall think on this. (I'm thinking "convienent" placement of the supply wagon... happens to be right in the path of retreat!)


You'll also need to have a solid mechanism for the party escaping. Fighters etc in full plate with 20' move and hideous stealth aren't going to sneak away. Your cleric or paladin might refuse to leave the caravan to its doom.

I'd suggest splitting the party from the caravan before the attack. Maybe, worried that the goblins will attack again, the head guard sends the party to scout ahead, or perhaps take the parallel road, or take a vantage point on a hill, accompanied by an NPC guide who is tragically killed in a skirmish at the same time as the caravan is overrun - the party can't intervene (and get themselves killed) because they're fighting for their lives.



not so much "sneaking" more "running for all your worth" haha.
fair point on the holy men though....
I have a feeling they're gonna be scouting ^_^


I suspect this will depend very largely on your players and their characters (well duh!).

After that, I like the idea of the party being pursued for a day or two. Force the heavy armour wearers to take it off so they can keep up. Have the party force march to the point of fatigue. Have the half ogre eventually carry the halfling because he just can't keep going any more. All stuff that develops the party. Don't throw them into a tough encounter at this point though :)


I actually.... REALLY like this idea... and I'm gonna use it some time. I'm afraid it doesn't quite fit what I'm after for this particular campaign, but still... it's gonna be good. I'll probably even use it later in the campaign.


I At some point your party is going to want some payback. They'll probably need to recruit allies. They'll also probably want to ambush smaller/scout groups of goblins to get intel.

tl/dr Sounds like a fun campaign - minf if I steal it :D

well, the idea is that this obliteration is going to jumpstart the first plotline, so they'd better be thirsty for revenge.

also, steel away

[Honest Tiefling]

I think I agree with Bobby Archer. Good aligned characters are going to be very reluctant to leave behind defenseless people. Heck, even Neutral might fight the good fight if their paycheck and looting rights are on the line.

The first encounter might not even need to happen. Why send in a fighting force to scout out numbers when your favored class is rogue? I think it is for goblins. Have the occasional sighting of a goblin during the day time, perhaps from behind some rocks. PCs are likely to take potshots at these, but a death of a few scouts may not matter to the goblins, or the scouts might run away instead of engaging...Only to have more goblins take their place. And have them be very different.

Things could change at night. Goblin laughter, cries and jeers might be heard in all directions, and from a lot of goblins. The caravan guards might want to keep the PCs close, especially if the goblins send in rogues to sabotage things if the PCs turn their backs. Steal supplies, break wagons, and kill horses. The scent of Worgs might make horses uneasy and if it doesn't outright spook them they are going to have a heck of a time sleeping.

And then, Goblins might try to mess with them. Have them approach a warning or sign construted to warn them off. Such as the goblins steal something, break it, and then place it on a spike with a skull up the road. Sends a clear message even if you don't speak goblin.

However, I would be wary of making the caravan's demise inevitable. It sends a message to the PCs that their actions and decisions don't matter. Good aligned PCs are likely to be very disheartened, and it might be smart to put in a quest to quickly make these PCs not feel useless. I think letting them divert the worst of the army makes them feel like heroes, not chumps.

Also, if the goblin army decides they are better pickings then the caravan once split off, the goblins can chase them for days, sending them deeper and deeper into the wilderness. They can be plenty lost even if the caravan is still alive.

I would also consider making the goblin horde a concrete number, if high. Yes, they might win. This shouldn't be a bad thing, and the PCs will probably be pleased as pudding if they can pull off an uber difficult challenge, through, yes, they have managed to avoid the plot at this point. I actually think the PCs will be more likely to return and try to defeat the goblins if their numbers are definite. This is heavy personal bias, but I would probably avoid the goblins were it inevitable, as I would feel like my PC and my decisions have little bearing on the plot.

I know this may not go so hot, but I really believe that if you give someone a talking to because you will make them unplayable for playing a certain class and then do this plot...You might have some unhappy PCs on your hands. You know them better then me, but my gaming group would not be very happy if I did the same to them. But, our friends are likely very different.

I wonder if it might just be best to tell the PCs after they give you their character sheets that they are lost in the wilderness and gloss over this encounter. Beats being in a tavern.

[Laendri]

The first thing that catches my attention is that the second combat in your game is a loosing situation for the players. You need to be ready for the possibility that the players either won't realize that they're meant to lose or simply won't be willing to give up. Obviously, your best tool in this situation is going to be your own knowledge of your players; if they're the types to understand that not every battle can be won or are willing to beat a strategic retreat, then this may be less of a worry.

Some suggestions, though, to help the players retreat:

Make the first encounter tough enough to be challenging (exactly what you throw at them will depend on how many players you have and what the make-up of the NPC caravan guards is). Instead of the players et al wiping the initial group out, have the raiders retreat once they encounter resistance. The point of the first attack is to suss out the caravan's defenses so they know how many goblins they need to overwhelm it.
When the head of security argues for heading back, his reasoning is that he's seen this kind of attack before and he knows it only presages a bigger assault. The fact that the initial force could have done much more damage if they persisted and his own knowledge that there are many more goblins in the area suggest that they're planning to attack again with much greater numbers. Really have him lean on the fact that the whole caravan will be wiped out if they don't turn back. If he can get one of the PCs to believe him and back him up, so much the better.
During the second attack, give the PCs an out. No player wants to retreat with their tail between their legs, particularly when the lives of innocents are on the line (well, some players would be willing to cut and run, but for the sake of argument...). Instead of it being a decision between "stay and die trying to protect others" and "flee and let everyone die." Let the players have some kind of heroic action they can take that also has the result of saving their lives: drawing off the main body of attackers so that a few wagons or horses can get away, escaping to protect the injured/noncombatants/magical mcguffin from the goblins, anything that makes running away into a heroic act.


How large a caravan this is and what it's transporting are going to be relevant issues, especially if the players want to come up with inventive ways to protect against a second assault.


Listen to this guy, he is giving you good advice.
Most players won't run away if the people they are meant to protect are dying. Even if that means their death.

I think the important point is the escape. Not the survival. But ok, let's answer your question.

What classes are your characters will decide if they are in a rush for reaching the city or not. A Ranger, Druid, Barbarian or Cleric in the party will make the survival "comfortable".
Most players will hunt for food and find the way to the city.
They might preffer hunt the goblins instead of travelling to the city.
They might preffer returning to the attacked caravan for helping survivors and getting some items back.
They might preffer going back to the first city instead of continuing to the sencond.
If they are not ready for wilderness they might end lost and without food and you will have to save them.
If the escape situation (sorry for going back to it) went wrong and the party dismissed or they get angry with one another, the wild will be the less of their problems, they'll want to kill each other.

[big teej]

okay, I didn't make something clear in the OP apparently, so allow me to do it now.


The Second encounter is NOT NECESSARLY GOBLINS if possible, I will use something more appropriate to a Character's background, such as a horde of daemons in the case of the paladin.

the goblins are merely a stand-in in the event that I don't have something to work with.

in regards to a concrete number.

I maintain that a Goblin tribe (to use the stand-in) large enough to draw the focus of the plot away from whatever the character's personal goals are, is large enough that, for this encounter, I can use X number of goblins.

but we're still getting afield from the question.


"what do you do when you are weeks away with civilization with nothing but the gear in your pack?"

EDIT: bloody ninjas :smalltongue:


fair enough, perhaps the caravan being obliterated ( I love saying that word....) is a bit heavy handed.

and in hindsight, I would like to think everyone with beating me in the head with "they won't run away" as I refused to consider the PCs "death or glory" kneejerk response.


so... now I just have to hope the players give me something to work with.