Dragon Compendium Classes?

[LOTRfan]

So, I finally got my hands on a copy of the Dragon Magazine Compendium, and inside are seven new base classes. I've never heard of any of them before (with the exception of the Sha'ir). Why exactly is that?

Are the classes in this book so bad that most don't even consider using them, or are they just so obscure no one on this forum uses them? :smallconfused:

[Kylarra]

I think internet consensus is that they're not terribly outstanding, and thus the majority of their niches can be replicated through the multitudes of splat support for more well known classes.

[LOTRfan]

I see. I guess that makes sense, seeing as how the Urban Druid for example is made completely useless by the Cityscape ACFs.

It would also explain why I have only heard of the Sha'ir, as it seems to be the most unique class in the book.

[Zaq]

Let's see. Working strictly from memory (I have the book, but I don't have it open), the Battle Dancer is only good for a one-level dip (getting IUS, +1 BAB, and CHA to AC when unarmored, if memory serves); the Jester would be decent if it had any sort of support but on its own is kind of lackluster (it's the mirror of the Bard, and buffing tends to outweigh debuffing); the Savant is basically a worse Factotum, though if memory serves it can get into certain PrCs that a Factotum can't; the Death Master is an interesting alternative to the Dread Necro and a plain ol' Wizard but really doesn't do much that those two don't; the Mountebank has some very cool fluff but really doesn't go anywhere with its crunch; the Sha'ir is basically unplayable as written (doesn't retrieving each spell take several minutes and a separate check or something? I also remember that they can only keep their spells memorized for one hour per class level, which means that at low levels, you can't just prep what you need in the morning and leave a few slots open for unexpected stuff); and finally, the Urban Druid doesn't really get anything that's worth giving up the Druid's massive spell list and, well, Druidness, though I remember that they're interesting in that they're CHA-based prepared casters.

I might be wrong on a few of the details.

[FMArthur]

Yeah, I think the main problem with them is that half were made to be things that didn't exist yet that WotC did in fact make at a later time. The others aren't incredibly interesting and see no support elsewhere.

[Benly]

The sha'ir isn't "unplayable as written" if you actually bother to read out how its spell retrieval works. An important point is that as written spells that "time out" don't count as expended, so you can just send your gen to fetch them again. The major down sides are that you need to keep your Diplomacy check high enough to take 10 on your retrieval checks and you use the sorcerer progression for spellcasting levels; the up side is that you can prepare the entire sorc/wiz list, including spells that aren't on your "spells known", with no real penalty. The divine casting is largely pointless except that it qualifies you for some fun PrCs.

The Death Master is notable for getting Animate Dead at an even lower level than clerics, which is something I think Dread Necromancers should've gotten.

[Sdonourg]

Battle Dancer is like monk, but better.
Jester has some interesting abilities, good spell list (including Polymorph, which bards do not have). I'd rather say it's a good class.
Death Master is good power-wise (Animate Dead on 2nd spell level [this makes Artificer happy]). There are some threads about comparsion of DM and DN. DM is more versatile, than DN, has better spell list, but DN has more class abilities.
Sha'ir is good fluff-wise and crunch-wise (but low level play is hard and dangerous). On of my favorite classes.
Mountebank ahs good fluff, but terrible crunch. But in my practice (used him once as a semi-BBEG on level 4) he is doing pretty well on low levels.
Savant - I like him, but factotum is much better (I've played factotum and another player played savant at the same time).
Urban Druid looks good, but Cityscape as was mentioned has similar ACF. I still like this one better.

I reccomend you to take a look at Force Missile Mage prestige-class.

[LOTRfan]

I love the Force Missile Mage PrC. I think that the PrCs are really cool, and I hear them brought up often (especially Magic Missle Mage and the Osteomancer).

[Divide by Zero]

the Sha'ir is basically unplayable as written (doesn't retrieving each spell take several minutes and a separate check or something? I also remember that they can only keep their spells memorized for one hour per class level, which means that at low levels, you can't just prep what you need in the morning and leave a few slots open for unexpected stuff)
The mechanic is kind of awkward, but with good enough planning it can work out perfectly well (with enough divination support, I could see it being even more powerful than a wizard in some cases)

I love the Force Missile Mage PrC. I think that the PrCs are really cool, and I hear them brought up often (especially Magic Missle Mage and the Osteomancer).
I really want to like Force Missile Mage. It seems like it could be a cool character, and I always liked the flavor of magic missile. The problem is that the spell still sucks after the boosts, even in comparison to a normal blaster wizard. With a good rewrite, though, I'd definitely consider playing it.

[arguskos]

Yeah, this has mostly been covered, but I have a few notes:

Battle Dancer: Monk, but arguably worse, due to actually wanting Cha too. :smallsigh: It does get a few neat tricks, but they are not even vaguely worth the dross you have to slog through.

Death Master: I actually really like this one. The blood mechanic is flavorful and neat, and the undead minion is fun times. Dread Necromancer is understood to be better overall though.

Jester: Honestly, if this got more support (and it can be easily fiddled with to make that it so Jesters apply for Bard stuff), I'd call this one a solid class. As it is, it's nice and all... but gets zero love. :smallsigh:

Mountebank: Crap. Hands down crap. The core mechanic, the Beguiling Stare or whatever it's called has so many limitations and does so little, it may as well read: "waste your actions and do nothing useful." :smallmad:

Savant: My personal favorite. I use some alterations to make it a slightly different class (alter the spell progression, change a few other things), but overall, not bad. Skill Assistance is really useful.

Sha'ir: Once you get past the spell retrieval mechanic (which is clunky and confusing, but potentially game-breakingly powerful), the class is interesting fluff-wise. It really comes down to your DM's reading of the mechanic (which is vague and confusing enough to cause some discussion).

Urban Druid: ...this is an ACF. 'Nuff said.

Overall: Fun, novel for their time(s), mostly overridden.

[true_shinken]

Battle Dancer: Monk, but arguably worse, due to actually wanting Cha too. :smallsigh: It does get a few neat tricks, but they are not even vaguely worth the dross you have to slog through.

Battle Dancer has full BAB and doesn't need Wisdom, so I can't see your point.
I think the dance abilities are quite lackluster, but it's actually a good chassis for gishes.

[ILM]

I love the Force Missile Mage PrC. I think that the PrCs are really cool, and I hear them brought up often (especially Magic Missle Mage and the Osteomancer).
For some reason, I keep thinking of the Osteomancer as a mage who progressively gains the powers of an oyster.

[FMArthur]

Battle Dancer: Monk, but arguably worse, due to actually wanting Cha too. :smallsigh: It does get a few neat tricks, but they are not even vaguely worth the dross you have to slog through.

The Battle Dancer is almost strictly superior to the Monk, and actually appears to be designed with the Monk's commonly-voiced shortcomings in mind - like a fix that wasn't gutsy enough to call itself one :smallwink:. Cha to AC is not much worse than Wis to AC, although the Battle Dancer's Will save does wind up lower. It's not one more stat they need, it's just a replacement for the extraneous one Monks need.

Full BAB: As a class whose only intended task was to fight in melee, Monk should always have had this. Monk would have gotten more out of it due to FoB, but they just don't have it and Battle Dancers do. They are also the only class that actually gets full BAB and Monk unarmed damage, despite the feature being available to many others.
DR-piercing attacks: magic, then aligned, then material-based. It's not great, but still at least addresses one serious drawback of playing any unarmed build that the Monk outright fails to do.
Pounce: 11th level is late for Pounce, but better late than never. The level that Monks get it happens to be never, in case you've forgotten. That has also been the case for almost every mundane melee class throughout 3.5 until ToB and CC.
Flight: 17th level is hilariously late, and I'm willing to call this one a no-gain even though Monks don't get it because you're just not getting to 17th level without someone or something to let you fly, and 17+ level play is very rare.

At 14th level, they also get the ability to move through foes' spaces and get free attacks on them, and upon closer inspection, requires no further action besides the move. You could move in and out of creatures' spaces and attack them each time until your move speed runs out or you fail the gradually increasing Tumble DC. It's like the Paimon vestige on crack.

What they lose for these things is Evasion, two good saves and Flurry of Blows. It's very, very far from a complete fix, but I'd definitely take it over a Monk every time.

[Amnestic]

For some reason, I keep thinking of the Osteomancer as a mage who progressively gains the powers of an oyster.

Well if we can Rebuke Hippo Clerics, why not have Oyster Mages? :smalltongue:

[Maho-Tsukai]

I actually do like the death master, but it fails at what it dose simply because the cleric and the dread necromancer STILL are better at necromancy. Sure, the death master gets rebuke, desecrate and animate dead sooner then a cleric, but it lacks any way to get the deathbound domain power without an annoying sidequest(planar touchstone) so the cleric can still animate more then the DM. Also, most likely by RAI, the DM can't get all the good "caster" necromancy the wizard gets.

However, due to a poorly written entry, a death master can actually learn any spell he wants from the wizard/sorc list so long as he has it in wirtten form, since his spellbook is said to work "identical to that of a wizard" meaning he can, just like a wizard, add wiz/sorc spells he has in written form into his spellbook. So technically by RAW the Death Master is has EVERY trick the wizard dose, so long as he can find the proper scrolls, spellbooks ect.

Generally, though, as far as Necromancy is concerned the chain of who's best at it goes as follows, from best to worst. Cleric > Dread Necro > Death Master > Wizard...and that chain is most likely why the Death Master gets so little attention.

[HalfDragonCube]

Well if we can Rebuke Hippo Clerics, why not have Oyster Mages? :smalltongue:

Totally want to play one of them sometime. With the feat that gives you damage like you get bitten by a hippo if you fall out of the deity's favour and everything.

[Greenish]

Totally want to play one of them sometime. With the feat that gives you damage like you get bitten by a hippo if you fall out of the deity's favour and everything.Beware, qualifying for the feat requires you to defeat a hippopotamus in single combat!

[Benly]

I actually do like the death master, but it fails at what it dose simply because the cleric and the dread necromancer STILL are better at necromancy. Sure, the death master gets rebuke, desecrate and animate dead sooner then a cleric, but it lacks any way to get the deathbound domain power without an annoying sidequest(planar touchstone) so the cleric can still animate more then the DM. Also, most likely by RAI, the DM can't get all the good "caster" necromancy the wizard gets.

You realize that Deathbound domain doesn't actually increase your control limit, right? It only increases how many HD you can animate per casting. Since you reach the limit of what Animate Dead is capable of at level 10 anyway, it's not actually all that huge a deal.

The Death Master has a better spell list than the Dread Necromancer and gets undead five levels earlier. I wouldn't call that "fails at what it does".

[Maho-Tsukai]

You realize that Deathbound domain doesn't actually increase your control limit, right? It only increases how many HD you can animate per casting.

This is correct, but there is one thing you missed: the fact that animate dead says any excess undead created with a single casting of the spell fall under the caster's control. Sure, you lose them when you cast animate dead again, but so long as you don't cast it again until those undead have served their purpose the deathbound domain DOSE let you have more undead, despite not actually increasing your control limit.

Also, the dread necromancer is better then the death master at NECROMANCY. The Death Master is the more powerful class, yes, but we are not talking about overall power as if that where the case then the wizard would be better then the cleric. We are talking strictly on terms of necromancy and while the death master has the better spell list power-wise, the DN is overall better at NECROMANCY then the death master. How? Class features. Undead Mastery alone is enough to make the DN an awesome Necro, but then you also have the fact that the Dread Necro can use advance learning obtain highly important necromancy spells such as awaken undead and general of undeath that a death master will either have a hard time obtaining or flat out not be able to obtain without cheese or wasting a feat on extra spell.(And in the case of general of undeath they'd need to be at least 17th level to grab it with extra spell.....ouch.)

[HalfDragonCube]

Beware, qualifying for the feat requires you to defeat a hippopotamus in single combat!

Any cleric could defeat a legion of hippopotamuses.

Hippos for the hippo god!

[Benly]

This is correct, but there is one thing you missed: the fact that animate dead says any excess undead created with a single casting of the spell fall under the caster's control. Sure, you lose them when you cast animate dead again, but so long as you don't cast it again until those undead have served their purpose the deathbound domain DOSE let you have more undead, despite not actually increasing your control limit.


Yeah, but here's the thing: by level 10 you're making the strongest undead Animate Dead can create at all, regardless of Deathbound. Check out the zombie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm) and skeleton (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm) creature entries, and pay special attention to what it says under Hit Dice. Since you can't create skeletons and zombies with more than 20 HD using Animate Dead, Deathbound doesn't actually let you make bigger undead. The number it makes per casting is still smaller than your control pool, so it doesn't let you exceed your control pool, either. It just saves you time and spell slots, which is nice but hardly gamechanging.

(Undead dragons are the exception: if you happen to find a dragon corpse beefy enough that you couldn't animate it without Deathbound, obviously Deathbound pays off. But that's a niche situation.)


Also, the dread necromancer is better then the death master at NECROMANCY. The Death Master is the more powerful class, yes, but we are not talking about overall power as if that where the case then the wizard would be better then the cleric.

Well, he's better at necromancy once he gets Desecrate. It's about as easy for a dread necromancer to get Desecrate as for a Death Master to get Awaken Undead. Both of them will need to expand their spell lists, probably using Arcane Disciple.

At levels 3-7, the Death Master is a ridiculously superior necromancer on the basis of having Animate Dead at all. After level 8, the advantage goes to the Dread Necromancer. On the other hand, either of them can easily break the control pool rules hilariously with Command Undead and a lesser rod of chaining - but, well, that's another issue.

I'm not trying to say "death master rulez, dread necro droolz" or anything of the like here, but rather that your assertion that the death master is somehow a failure of a class is pretty much verifiably false.

[Taelas]

Necromancers benefit a great deal from cleric spells.

Dread Necromancers like Rainbow Servants for this reason.

DN 8/RS 10, along with a cleric level for Deathbound and even more turning checks (and maybe a 1-dip into Death Delver for even more), should be awesome necromancers.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I never meant to say it's a failure of a class and I apologize if I come off that way. It IS technically stronger then a DN, but as far as necromancy goes it's only slightly better then the wizard and the wizard is by no means a bad necromancer. The death master IS a good necromancer, but not at the level of a DN and certainly not at the level of a cleric. He will be animating and controlling less then both the DN and the cleric, and as a result he is a poorer necromancer then the cleric and DN since the reason the wizard, despite being a good necro-class, is dead last on the list is due to the fact that he won't be good at animation like a DN and a cleric. The wizard is a powerful caster necromancer but a stinky animator. The Death Master is an insanely good animator at low levels but in higher levels when the cleric has general of undeath and the DN has undead mastery he is only slightly better then the wizard. The DN is the best animator in the game but a meh caster-necro and the cleric is a very good animator and a very good caster necro, hence why he's number one on the list.

Simply put, the cleric can do everything the Death Master can as far as necromancy is concenred, but better, and can also easily out animate him at higher levels. The Dread Necro's class features make him better at pure necromancy and can give him ever important spells like awaken undead(which NO necromancer should be without) that make him better then the death master at necromancy....

So, is the death master a fail necromancer? No. Is it a bad class? No. Is it the best class you can take if you want to be a good necromancer? No, not by a long shot. That dose not make the class bad at what it dose. It just means that their are classes that do what it dose, but better...though that dose not mean you can't play one and have fun. It just means you won't be the best necromancer in the game but if it fits your character concept better then the DN or the cleric then it's perfectly playable....just not the optimal choice for pure necromancy...

However, in E6, where the cleric never gets general of undeath, the DN never gets undead mastery and nobody gets awaken undead ever, then the Death Master becomes the best necro class their is...but standard 3.5e=/=E6.

So it all comes down to this: don't blame the death master for it not being the optimal choice for necromancy, blame Wizard's slobbering love affair with Clerics.

[HalfDragonCube]

Necromancers benefit a great deal from cleric spells.

Dread Necromancers like Rainbow Servants for this reason.

DN 8/RS 10, along with a cleric level for Deathbound and even more turning checks (and maybe a 1-dip into Death Delver for even more), should be awesome necromancers.

DN 8? Surely early entry shenanigans could push that down?

[Maho-Tsukai]

Level 8 is when the DN gets Undead Mastery, which is THE reason to take the class. Thats why they used DN 8 as an entry, most likely.

[Taelas]

You get Undead Mastery at 8th. So no.¨

You can easily get into RS earlier, though. 5 is all that is required (3rd level arcane spells), and with early entry tricks, you could push it down.

[Benly]

The cleric is only a better necromancer (in the sense of a minion-keeper) than a properly-built Death Master from level 15 onwards, and only with a setting-specific 3.0 spell. Hardly a total domination on the cleric's part. :smallsmile:

If you want to be a minion-master necromancer I would say it is a fair contest between the Death Master and the Dread Necromancer, and which one wins out depends on which level range you expect to play in. The lower the level range you expect to play in, the better the Death Master compares.

[HalfDragonCube]

Confound the need for class features!

[Maho-Tsukai]

Wait, General of Undeath is a 3.0 spell? All this time I thought it was a 3.5e spell(I thought it was in the spell compendium?). If it's a 3.0 spell then my opinion on the death master vs. the cleric changes quite a bit though as that means the spell would not be allowed in many 3.5e games. Makes me wonder why people all talk about it as if it would be allowed pretty much any 3.5e game....

[LOTRfan]

No, its in the Spell Compendium as well.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Then it seems my point stands. The cleric is still king when it comes to Necromancy, with the Dread Necro as his hot queen. Looks like the Death Master truly dose lose out, though he's still better then the wizard.

[Benly]

Wait, General of Undeath is a 3.0 spell? All this time I thought it was a 3.5e spell(I thought it was in the spell compendium?). If it's a 3.0 spell then my opinion on the death master vs. the cleric changes quite a bit though as that means the spell would not be allowed in many 3.5e games. Makes me wonder why people all talk about it as if it would be allowed pretty much any 3.5e game....

Ah, I stand corrected - it is in SpC (I missed it on my first look-through, go me!)

...and it's nerfed hard. It just adds your CL to your HD limit; the Magic of Faerun version added ten times that. It's a nice bonus, I guess? But it's not really a killer app in the SpC version. I would consider the MoF version as something that makes clerics dominant necromancers at the appropriate level, but the SpC version is maybe one extra worthwhile minion. I know I keep saying it, but Command Undead (even without Chain shenanigans) can cover for that and doesn't need a dang eighth-level slot.

Seriously, General of Undeath adds less to your control pool than a normal, unmodified Command Undead from a second-level slot does until level 20, because you can just slap that Command Undead on a 20-HD skelly or zombie you made and didn't take control of.

[Taelas]

DN 8/RS 10 is still better than pure cleric as a necromancer. They can cast all cleric spells spontaneously, and with Undead Mastery on top...

[Maho-Tsukai]

I know I keep saying it, but Command Undead (even without Chain shenanigans) can cover for that and doesn't need a dang eighth-level slot.

The Divine Magician ACF and Necromancer Domain say hello.

Command Undead makes little difference in the Death Master vs. Cleric debate since any cleric who wants that spell will have it just by taking the proper domain or the Divine Magician ACF, which again just reinforces my point that the cleric can do everything the death master can and better, and can also do more on top of that.

Also, I known of DN/Rainbow Servant but that kinda requires you to be a nice guy, and being a nice guy is icky. I want to be an evil mean, selfish necromancer. Not some kind-heatred, sweater-vest wearing neutral necromancer with rainbow wings who uses the powers of the dark to save puppies and kittens and make little girls smile!.... or something lame like that. That's why I actually made an evil refluff of the class based around working for evil dragons instead of feathered snake-things because evil is way more cool then good and dragons are one of the most cool ideas ever dreamed up by mankind. Oh, also, I can PM anybody interested the details of the refluff(as there are some VERY MINOR mechanical changes.)

Now I have the strange urge to actually make that necromancer.....


Anyway, humor aside, PrCs have little place in this debate as the PrC is it's own class and thus not a part of the classes within the debate. Saying the DN is better then the cleric because he can take a PrC that makes him so is like saying that the novice sword fighter is a better swordsman then the swordsman who's trained and perfected his art over the years because the novice happens to have access to a seirum that gives him superhuman strength that the master dose not have.

[Benly]

The Divine Magician ACF and Necromancer Domain say hello.

Command Undead makes little difference in the Death Master vs. Cleric debate since any cleric who wants that spell will have it just by taking the proper domain or the Divine Magician ACF, which again just reinforces my point that the cleric can do everything the death master can and better, and can also do more on top of that.

Yeah, this basically ends up coming down to "cleric can do anything anyone else can". Basically, if I was going to let that stop me, you'd never see anyone rolling anything that wasn't a cleric. :smalltongue: I'm aware that clerics can poach the good stuff from other classes, but my point is that General of Undeath is a pretty terrible spell to rely on as their killer app. I would seriously almost never cast that spell in the Spell Compedium version.

I guess when you get right down to it, the fact that "cleric" is on top of the "what is the best build for doing (x)" list for just about every possible value of (x) means that I don't take it seriously as an argument for why another class is bad at its job. The advantages of the cleric as a necromancer, for all they're tooted about, are small enough that I don't think that the other classes are hanging on by a thread.


Also, I known of DN/Rainbow servant but that kinda requires you to be a nice guy, and being a nice guy is icky.

Yeah, it's a niche build at best.

(And yet nobody takes this as a serious counterargument when I say "what if you don't want to be a cleric because you don't want to be reliant on an extradimensional sugar daddy"...)

[Maho-Tsukai]

The Dread Necromancer is certainly not hanging by a thread. In fact, the Dread Necromancer is actually SUPERIOR to the cleric when it comes to animation/minionmancy. He's just not the best "caster Necro" Wizards, Clerics, and yes, death masters, do that better. However, make no mistake, the DN is better at animation then a cleric will ever be, the cleric is just number one because he's a good minionmancer and a good necro-caster while the other classes are good at one but not the other. Like I said, if you want a brainy, "wizard-esc" necromancer who has good animation, the death master is a good and playable class. Personally, if I wanted an arcane Necromancer I would just play a Dread Necro but that's just me....nothing is stopping you from making and having fun with a death master.

This debate was not over which class is the most fun to play but rather which is the most optimal when it comes to necromancy.....just because the cleric and Dread Necro are the more optimal choices dose not mean they are necessarily the best for your character. The best choice is, always, what you think fits your character the best and if Death Master or even the often maligned Necro Wizard would work better for your concept then the cleric or Dread Necro then they are the best choice.

[Taelas]

Which is why I said that Dread Necromancer *with* Rainbow Servant is better. :smalltongue:

You don't have to be a 'nice guy', though. Non-good, non-chaotic and non-evil leaves room for both Lawful Neutral and Neutral.

There's also the whole debate on whether losing PrC prerequisites loses you the PrC, which raises the possibility of Evil Rainbow Servants.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Not to turn this thread to an alignment war, but many key necromancy spells will move you towards evil just for casting them, meaning even as a lawful neutral or true neutral you are going to have to do A LOT more good then evil if you want to stay neutral...so, yes, you will have to be nice more then you are nasty to offset the fact that your casting [evil] spells on a regular basis meaning that you ARE a nice guy....just one who dose not think undead are icky and evil.

Also, I like characters who are the "world domination!" type of evil and I can hardly see a lawful neutral or true neutral character having world domination as his goal...

[Taelas]

Alignment shift is in the realm of DM prerogative.

You can perform Good acts without being a nice guy, though. :smallwink:

LN characters who wish for world domination aren't that hard to come up with; they simply have more compunctions and restrictions than the LE type. While they will subjugate dissenters, they won't do so in Evil ways like the LE ones would.

True Neutral is a bit harder, but I can imagine one wanting to enforce the preservation of balance through personal leadership.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Thats the thing, I kinda like my world dominators to be doing it for power, greed or selfish reasons, not to "prevent disorder and anarchy." Call me cliche' but I love myself evil overlord necros and I don't want to play a necro as some guy who just wants people to be safe and has all these high minded ideals about how choice and freedom and dangerous and that society would be better off with strict rules....I want my necros to be the power-hungry types who desire to rule for totally selfish reasons and I can't see that off of lawful neutral or true neutral...

Again, though, I have a refluff for the class and I invoke it often so the answer to all of this for me is simply "looks like it's time to pull out the refluff again..."

[Taelas]

There's another solution. Play as someone who is essentially Lawful Evil, but who knows what alignment is, and is determined to avoid passing into LE (because it would mean the Loss of All His Powers) by performing Good deeds to balance out his Evil ones. He is essentially Evil, but due to his careful nature, he pings as LN.

[dextercorvia]

I was just thinking that Chameleons make pretty awesome animators. They get double CL, which is the big limiter. It is easy to have CL 30 without cheese, and you are only a feat away from CL 40.

[FMArthur]

There's another solution. Play as someone who is essentially Lawful Evil, but who knows what alignment is, and is determined to avoid passing into LE (because it would mean the Loss of All His Powers) by performing Good deeds to balance out his Evil ones. He is essentially Evil, but due to his careful nature, he pings as LN.

No, that's just plain delusional evil, which is more typical in human behavior than honest evil anyway.

[Tvtyrant]

No, that's just plain delusional evil, which is more typical in human behavior than honest evil anyway.

Someone who does good deeds to balance out evil ones is evil? Neutral wants a word with you :P

[Kylarra]

He's just dangerously genre savvy and breaking the 4th wall with metaplots. He could ping as either LN or LE depending on the DM involved.

[Divide by Zero]

Someone who does good deeds to balance out evil ones is evil? Neutral wants a word with you :P

One good act and one evil act do not cancel out. If you push an old lady in front of a bus and then go volunteer at the soup kitchen, you are still Evil. The fact that said character is deliberately attempting to do that for selfish purposes just makes it worse.

[Taelas]

One good act and one evil act do not cancel out. If you push an old lady in front of a bus and then go volunteer at the soup kitchen, you are still Evil. The fact that said character is deliberately attempting to do that for selfish purposes just makes it worse.

They do not 'cancel out', but they average out to Neutral.

Also, "volunteering at a soup kitchen" and "pushing an old lady in front of a bus" are extremely disproportionate acts with regards to their specific alignments. It is not a particularly Good act to volunteer at the soup kitchen, but killing an old lady for no reason is a strong Evil act. Try 'saving a baby from drowning' instead.

[Big Fau]

Which is why I said that Dread Necromancer *with* Rainbow Servant is better. :smalltongue:

Do remember that your ability to Rebuke Undead is based on your DN level, not Character Level. While you can use spells to compensate, you lose out on a lot of controllable undead with RS.

[Tvtyrant]

One good act and one evil act do not cancel out. If you push an old lady in front of a bus and then go volunteer at the soup kitchen, you are still Evil. The fact that said character is deliberately attempting to do that for selfish purposes just makes it worse.

Except those aren't equally evil and good acts; if you risked your life by running into a burning building and saved someone and you killed an old woman there would be much more parity. And the idea that you would be doing "good things" without a personal reason doesn't jive with me. Altruism tends to be created by people who know the difference between good and evil in a moral system and are specifically picking "good." Not wanting to be evil is a perfectly legitimate reason to do good things.

[Divide by Zero]

They do not 'cancel out', but they average out to Neutral.

Also, "volunteering at a soup kitchen" and "pushing an old lady in front of a bus" are extremely disproportionate acts with regards to their specific alignments. It is not a particularly Good act to volunteer at the soup kitchen, but killing an old lady for no reason is a strong Evil act. Try 'saving a baby from drowning' instead.


People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others.

And that was just an example off the top of my head. Replace it with yours and my point still stands.

[Taelas]

And that was just an example off the top of my head. Replace it with yours and my point still stands.

Your quote does not take everything from that section into account.


Being neutral on the good–evil axis usually represents a lack of commitment one way or the other, but for some it represents a positive commitment to a balanced view. While acknowledging that good and evil are objective states, not just opinions, these folk maintain that a balance between the two is the proper place for people, or at least for them.

[Divide by Zero]

Your quote does not take everything from that section into account.

That's a different situation entirely. Good and Evil as objective forces are not the same as good and evil acts. Furthermore, it does not imply that the two are inherently balanced.

[Taelas]

The quote mentions Neutral characters who have exactly the philosophy we are speaking of. Since these characters are described as Neutral, clearly the philosophy does precisely what we are saying it does.

[Tvtyrant]

That's a different situation entirely. Good and Evil as objective forces are not the same as good and evil acts. Furthermore, it does not imply that the two are inherently balanced.

Good and Evil are objective alignments, which place you are is based on your actions. And while there is nothing to "balance them out" in the writing, your assumption that Evil is stronger than Good is also baseless.

[Benly]

"Whew, that was a lot of orphan-murdering. I'd better go feed and clothe other, different orphans or I might become evil or something!"

[Taelas]

"Whew, that was a lot of orphan-murdering. I'd better go feed and clothe other, different orphans or I might become evil or something!"

He probably can't get up to much orphan-murdering, considering that the vast amount of these spells are Evil. :smallwink:

[FMArthur]

This would be a lot easier if the game described how evil casting Evil spells is. You definitely could NOT get away with saving 1 or even 10 orphans for every 1 innocent you hunt like game for the pleasure of it and still pretend to be anything other than Evil, but because the game has arbitrarily attributed evilness to things that bear no connection to actual harmful evil, it's just sort of left up to DM interpretation, and possibly imagination if it's supposed to be something like "it strengthens the REAL Forces of Evil elsewhere".

[Darth Stabber]

This would be a lot easier if the game described how evil casting Evil spells is. You definitely could NOT get away with saving 1 or even 10 orphans for every 1 innocent you hunt like game for the pleasure of it and still pretend to be anything other than Evil, but because the game has arbitrarily attributed evilness to things that bear no connection to actual harmful evil, it's just sort of left up to DM interpretation, and possibly imagination if it's supposed to be something like "it strengthens the REAL Forces of Evil elsewhere".

There was a note in one of the books (I want to say heroes of horror), that discusses the nature of negative energy in the universe, and lists three different manners of effects upon the universe at large, and I warn you that in the explaination that follows I may confuse a few suggestions with my own opinion. The first is that positive and negative energy are just like the four elements, neither good nor evil, only the manner in which it is used matters. Second option, channeling negative energy saps bits of normal life energy out of the material plane at a very small rate, but over time makes the world a bad place. Third is that the meer channeling of negative energy is harmless, but when undead are created it forms a link between the material plane and the negative energy plane to feed the new unliving monstrosity, and each time this is done it brings the material plane that much closer to the negative energy plane, reducing the power of the lifeforce of normal creatures and strengthening the undead. I must you that I may have made up the last one (I am using it in my current campaign, and I can't remember if I copied that or pulled it out of my butt). If someone has a copy of HoH I would appreciate someone holding me accountable if I am B.S.ing.

[Darth Stabber]

On a more topical note, I must say that most of the classes presented in that book look like a beta version of stuff that later got printed. Battle dancer seems like a monk fix in the making, but a few features can kindof be seen in ToB, where monk got fixed for real. Savant is obviously Factotum 1.0, I actually like it better from every perspective but optimization (bonus feat: any is a neat class feature). Death master is kindof dreadnecro 1.0, I like the spell list, but ultimately RAW the class is a little OP (since their spell list was only limited when you gained lvlup spells, but you could still technically transcribe any wizard spell you wanted, and DM had actual class features). They cleaned it up a lot and gave it the same general format as beguiler and warmage, to gives us the loved and maligned DN. Urban druid just seems like they tried to play test a cityscape ACF before bringing up the book, could be fun in the right setting, but ultimately you are better of with druid(with or without cityscape acfs) 99.95% of the time. I really don't know what to make of mountebank, it seems like a roguish skill monkey, but with the social focus and weird bonus damage ability that is partially dependant on a weird SLA, it is just not as cohesive as it should be (still better than monk though).

There are only a few things I actually use out of that book.
#1 - tibbits: they have completely replaced halflings in my mind, why take a save bonus or a bonus feat when I can turn into a cat.
#2 - Lupin: with a small adjustment (namely full scent as opposed to that partial crap) lupins are a pretty cool, and usefull.
#3 - Diopsid: This is how you combine TWF with Ubercharger, seriously, they get strength and a half on each set of hands, and ignore dex requirements on feats with two weapon in their name. Natural armor and free slowfall are just icing on the cake.
#4 - Orange Dragon: they breathe a line of delayed ignition napalm! That is all.
And finally
#5 - purple dragon: lightsaber breath weapon?!?!?! OMGWTFPWNBBQ'D

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, and regarding the Death Master vs. Cleric Argument earlier, I kinda forgot the whole wiz/sorc spell access through the transcribing thing. In that case, the Death Master becomes a far better animator as now all he has to do to get Awaken Undead and basically any other necromancy spell he wants is to take leadership and get a wizard cohort or a Dread Necro cohort with scribe scroll.(Wizard would provide easier access and an overall stronger cohort but the scribing DN could provide access to cleric list spells the wiz can't get due to advance learning.) Simply look at your cohort's spellbook/have your cohort scribe a scroll of whatever spell you want and there you go. You have awaken undead. You can EVEN have General of Undeath if you really want it though I did not know it was hit so hard with the nerf bat in spell compendium when I was talking about how awesome it was.

Thus, getting awaken undead on a death master is not NEARLY as difficult as I thought....leadership saves the day again.

[Divide by Zero]

There was a note in one of the books (I want to say heroes of horror), that discusses the nature of negative energy in the universe, and lists three different manners of effects upon the universe at large, and I warn you that in the explaination that follows I may confuse a few suggestions with my own opinion. The first is that positive and negative energy are just like the four elements, neither good nor evil, only the manner in which it is used matters. Second option, channeling negative energy saps bits of normal life energy out of the material plane at a very small rate, but over time makes the world a bad place. Third is that the meer channeling of negative energy is harmless, but when undead are created it forms a link between the material plane and the negative energy plane to feed the new unliving monstrosity, and each time this is done it brings the material plane that much closer to the negative energy plane, reducing the power of the lifeforce of normal creatures and strengthening the undead. I must you that I may have made up the last one (I am using it in my current campaign, and I can't remember if I copied that or pulled it out of my butt). If someone has a copy of HoH I would appreciate someone holding me accountable if I am B.S.ing.

That sounds like Tome of Necromancy (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527634/Tome_of_Necromancy), but it might be elsewhere as well.

[Darth Stabber]

That sounds like Tome of Necromancy (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527634/Tome_of_Necromancy), but it might be elsewhere as well.

That is exactly what I was thinking of, and I did pull the third one out of my butt, primarily to explain a necromancer nation dominated by the cult of wejas, but still allow a heretical sect of jasite paladins (with a negatve energy ACF) to function as a faction hiding in the mountains. They needed the ACF to heal people as the land is so overrun with negative energy that most of the citizens have the tombtainted soul feat whether they want it or not.

[Psyren]

Not to turn this thread to an alignment war, but many key necromancy spells will move you towards evil just for casting them, meaning even as a lawful neutral or true neutral you are going to have to do A LOT more good then evil if you want to stay neutral...so, yes, you will have to be nice more then you are nasty to offset the fact that your casting [evil] spells on a regular basis meaning that you ARE a nice guy....just one who dose not think undead are icky and evil.

Easily rectified. Be a Hellbred (FC2.) Now you can cast [Evil] spells to your heart's content.

[Benly]

Thus, getting awaken undead on a death master is not NEARLY as difficult as I thought....leadership saves the day again.

Or you can use Arcane Disciple. That's how I tend to get it on Dread Necros anyway, which lets me save the Expanded Knowledge for spells where the 1/day limitation of Arcane Disciple could be a problem or just spells that aren't available as readily as that.

I tend to take Arcane Disciple as assumed when talking about Dread Necromancers, since it's a pretty trivial way of patching their biggest spell list problems - the big holes tend to be things that you won't need to cast more than once a day most days anyway. Pretty much any Dread Necromancer is likely to want Arcane Disciple: Deathbound and quite likely Arcane Disciple: Evil as well.

Tangentially, this has all gotten me curious: have you actually played a Dread Necromancer starting from very low levels? (That is, 2-3 or so.) I sort of have a suspicion that the Death Master's early access and more varied spell list is going to make less of an impression on somebody who hasn't had to look over the blighted hellhole of redundancy that is a low-level DN's spell list and decide with a heavy sigh which one he's going to use this round.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yes, but not as printed as I have a DN spell-list fix that I actually posted on this very forum a long time ago. I am too lazy to dig it up now but you can most likely find it by searching my username in the homebrew forum or something. My fix dose VERY little to change their list, though, and as it stands all it dose is give the DN desecrate as a level 2(which in all honesty it should have had anyway.), Animate dead as a level three and patched up the "double death ward" issue by replacing the level 3 death ward with Magic Circle.

Also, I dislike using Arcane Disciple because I hate MAD and generally have a hard time RPing high wis due to a not so great RL wis score. I know that sounds odd but I have a personal pet peeve regarding MAD and not being able to effectively RP my character's abilities and as a result never use that feat due to the Wis(an otherwise dumb stat for DNs, wizards and pretty much every arcane caster) investment it requires. That dose not make it any less effective and it's still a better way to pick up those spells then advance learning but I just use advance learning instead because I hate the wis investment needed for the feat, no matter how illogical that reason may seem.

[Benly]

Yes, but not as printed as I have a DN spell-list fix that I actually posted on this very forum a long time ago. I am too lazy to dig it up now but you can most likely find it by searching my username in the homebrew forum or something. My fix dose VERY little to change their list, though, and as it stands all it dose is give the DN desecrate as a level 2(which in all honesty it should have had anyway.), Animate dead as a level three and patched up the "double death ward" issue by replacing the level 3 death ward with Magic Circle.

Reasonable. Although I'll note that for those poor saps stuck using the list as printed, you'll be nearly halfway through your career before you get to animate a single undead minion.


Also, I dislike using Arcane Disciple because I hate MAD and generally have a hard time RPing high wis due to a not so great RL wis score. I know that sounds odd but I have a personal pet peeve regarding MAD and not being able to effectively RP my character's abilities and as a result never use that feat due to the Wis(an otherwise dumb stat for DNs, wizards and pretty much every arcane caster) investment it requires. That dose not make it any less effective and it's still a better way to pick up those spells then advance learning but I just use advance learning instead because I hate the wis investment needed for the feat, no matter how illogical that reason may seem.

Fair enough. The MAD is an issue, but in practical terms it's one of the best ways to fill in the holes in either class's list.

[JaronK]

Or you can use Arcane Disciple. That's how I tend to get it on Dread Necros anyway, which lets me save the Expanded Knowledge for spells where the 1/day limitation of Arcane Disciple could be a problem or just spells that aren't available as readily as that.

I tend to take Arcane Disciple as assumed when talking about Dread Necromancers, since it's a pretty trivial way of patching their biggest spell list problems - the big holes tend to be things that you won't need to cast more than once a day most days anyway. Pretty much any Dread Necromancer is likely to want Arcane Disciple: Deathbound and quite likely Arcane Disciple: Evil as well.

I tend to expand the list more with Spell Stitching minions. That works quite well, especially since many of the spells I want (Awaken Undead, Animate Dread Warrior) are much better as spell likes anyway. And I really don't like MAD.


Tangentially, this has all gotten me curious: have you actually played a Dread Necromancer starting from very low levels? (That is, 2-3 or so.) I sort of have a suspicion that the Death Master's early access and more varied spell list is going to make less of an impression on somebody who hasn't had to look over the blighted hellhole of redundancy that is a low-level DN's spell list and decide with a heavy sigh which one he's going to use this round.

I played a DN from level 1 to level 12. The class really switches gears as you play it. At low levels you're an interesting melee class... you can self heal, and at level two the DR actually matters. Plus you've got touch attacks. You can use your close in attacks like Fear Aura to debilitate enemies as you attack them... I almost never used my spells in combat, relying more on Intimidate + Fear Aura and attacks to get the job done. As you level up your D6 HD and poor attack bonus becomes too much of a liability and you shift stances until you become a proper caster. It's fun.

As for the topic in general, yeah, the classes in Dragon Compendium either got redone later and better (Death Master -> Dread Necromancer, or Savant -> Factotum) or they're just not complete (Battle Dancer, Montebank). I've looked through it a bunch of times and never really got inspired. Battle Dancer has some great ideas for a class, but needs a bunch more to get properly fleshed out.

JaronK

[Benly]

I played a DN from level 1 to level 12. The class really switches gears as you play it. At low levels you're an interesting melee class... you can self heal, and at level two the DR actually matters. Plus you've got touch attacks. You can use your close in attacks like Fear Aura to debilitate enemies as you attack them... I almost never used my spells in combat, relying more on Intimidate + Fear Aura and attacks to get the job done. As you level up your D6 HD and poor attack bonus becomes too much of a liability and you shift stances until you become a proper caster. It's fun.

That pretty much matches my experience, yeah. Hence why I was amazed at the spell list difference being largely ignored.

[JaronK]

The thing is, the Death Master is sort of half way between Wizard or Cleric and Dread Necromancer... but the result is that for almost any concept, a Wizard or Cleric or Dread Necromancer probably does it better than Death Master, which renders the class somewhat pointless.

JaronK

[FMArthur]

It does lend itself to simple and easy minon-mancy because of its Undead Minion that makes itself a direct and obvious analogue to Animal Companion. It's not any better than the similar undead you'd be making with spells anyway, but it's simple and is generally more conducive to 'normal' combat than potential armies of undead.

[Benly]

That, and it has undead minions at all from levels 3-7. This is a significant advantage for someone playing a minion-themed character starting from the low levels and playing up.

[JaronK]

That, and it has undead minions at all from levels 3-7. This is a significant advantage for someone playing a minion-themed character starting from the low levels and playing up.

Note that the UA variant Necromancer (an ACF for Necromancer Specialist Wizards) gets a skeletal minion at level 1. So... again, Wizards and Clerics and DNs pretty much do it already.

JaronK

[Benly]

Note that the UA variant Necromancer (an ACF for Necromancer Specialist Wizards) gets a skeletal minion at level 1. So... again, Wizards and Clerics and DNs pretty much do it already.

JaronK

Actually, I meant Animate Dead, not the one minion. If you just want one minion, anyone can do that with two feats for Necrocarnum Circlet.

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, but a cleric can still do everything a death master can but better and the DN is still the better overall animator. I'd most definitely take the Death Master over a Necro wizard if I wanted to play a brainy, scholarly, "student of undeath" necromancer instead of a death priest or charismatic manipulative DN, though. However, that dose not mean the class is a better choice then the DN and cleric(which are the better choices if you want to excel at Necromancy.)

I guess the Death Master dose have one purpose and that's being a "Necro Wizard" that's actually good at animation since it gets the whole wiz/sorc list plus rebuke and easy access to desecrate/animate dead. It's no DN or cleric when it comes to animation but it's on par with a cleric barring general of undeath(which apparently was nerfed to not be as great as I assumed) and deathbound domain, so I suppose it's a nice alternative to the necro wizard if you want to be an int-based, prepared necromancer who dose not suck at undead animation...

Due to wiz/sorc list access it gets to be an excellent caster necro and a good animator rather then an excellent caster and crappy animator that the wizard is, which makes it better for modeling "wizardly/scholarly/student of death" type characters who actually want the undead legion then the wizard dose, though there is still no reason not to use a cleric or DN over the death master other then RP.....but RP is still a valid reason to play a class and as stated earlier I'd take Death Master over Necro Wizard any day.

[Benly]

True, but a cleric can still do everything a death master can but better and the DN is still the better overall animator. I'd most definitely take the Death Master over a Necro wizard if I wanted to play a brainy, scholarly, "student of undeath" necromancer instead of a death priest or charismatic manipulative DN, though. However, that dose not mean the class is a better choice then the DN and cleric(which are the better choices if you want to excel at Necromancy at higher levels.)

Added an important note there. Cleric has no major advantage over Death Master in terms of being an undead commander until higher levels, and the Dread Necromancer isn't an undead commander at all until five levels after the Death Master gets into it. For someone playing up from low levels the Death Master is a superior option as an undead-commander character at those levels, and an acceptable but somewhat inferior one after that.

I love the heck out of the Dread Necromancer but it is just incredibly frustrating that the "ultimate undead commander" class is the last full-casting class to get access to undead minions. Death Master is much more satisfying in terms of actually playing like what you signed on for in that regard.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Cleric has no major advantage over Death Master in terms of being an undead commander until higher levels

They get animate dead at level three and the deathbound domain at level 1. The deathbound domain is enough makes them superior to the death master even at low levels(via the excess undead from a single casting fall under the caster's control clause of animate dead.). Also, the DN is a late blooming class but worth the wait as Undead Mastery is just that awesome. The ability to make lolundead that it gives you is enough, but add on the fact that all the undead you animate get bonuses make it even better. With corpsecrafter feats not only will you have more undead, but your undead will be stronger then anything even a cleric with corpsecrafter feats will animate. So, yeah, the DN has to sacrifice a lot of versatility and can have at times painful low level play but when you hit level 8 you quickly realize suffering through those 1st 7 levels was SO worth it...

Like I said, the death master is better then a wizard at all levels, but the cleric at low and high level play is better then him(With the deathbound domain. Without it he's no better then a DM at low levels.). Also, while I will admit the DN is worse DM at low levels it is the absolute best at higher levels and as a result beyond RP or fluff-related reasons I see no reason not to take a cleric or DN.