Succubus tricking an angel & an archon

[faceroll]

I've got a room in a dungeon (wizard tower, actually) with a trumpet archon, an astral deva, and a succubus in it. I want the succubus to be pretending to be a paladin and has the two good outsiders charmed into being her friends.

Is a vanilla succubus enough to do this? I don't think it is- detect evil and magic circle at will I think are going to cause some problems for the succubus.

What would be elegant solutions for the succubus to maintain this ruse? And by elegant, I don't mean dominate monster, mindblank, etc. Maybe a potion of glibness, amulet of non-detection, a couple levels in a useful, but obscure class/prc.

Any Suggestions? :smallwink:

[blazingshadow]

fiend of blasphemy and fiend of corruption come to mind basically a succubus with specialized class levels

edit: fiend folio is the book for those classes

[OracleofWuffing]

Well, a Succubus is an Evil Outsider, so regardless of its alignment, it detects evil. If the goody two shoes are there to "Redeem" the succubus, it becomes a bit of a ruse on her end to make it look like she's seen the light, as the two can't trust their spells to glean information from the situation.

[Greenish]

Do you mean the succubus would pretend to be, say, a human paladin or the like, or a succubus who happens to be a paladin?

[Shadowknight12]

Seconding the Fiend of Corruption class from Fiend Folio (page 202). Mind Shielding (Su) gives her immunity to any attempts to discern her alignment, read her mind, discern her lies and the like. She can also use Suggestion and Geas to complement her Charm Monster ability.

Let's crunch some quick numbers. Take a vanilla succubus with all ten levels in Fiend of Corruption.

Her 12 HD gives us a +2 to add to her Charisma, making it 28 and raising the DCs of her abilities by 1. Her Charm Monster spell-like ability now has a DC of 23. If she manages to Charm someone, she can use her Suggestion spell-like ability at a 24 DC on them, and they take a -2 to their saves. She can also use Geas, which allows no saving throw (but it does allow SR).

Now let's take a look at the Trumpet Archon and the Astral Deva.

The Trumpet Archon has a SR of 29 and the Astral Deva's is 30. If we are generous and say that Fiend of Corruption stacks with the succubus's HD for the purposes of simulating Caster Level when seeing if it can bypass SR, it would mean that the succubus has a +12 to her roll, and needs to roll a 17 or higher to affect the Trumpet Archon and a 18 or higher to affect the Astral Deva.

After that, we have their respective Will saves. Trumpet Archon's is +11, while the Astral Deva's is +12. That gives them a 45% and 50% chance, respectively, of resisting her Charm Monster attempts even if she manages to overcome their SR. I would recommend giving her feats to augment her DC, such as Ability Focus, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment) and the like. In order to ensure that she can auto-bypass their SR, give her the Arcane Mastery feat and enough items/feats/buffs to give her a total of +8 to her caster level. Then she'll auto-succeed in bypassing their SR, and the only problem will be boosting her DC.

However, since her Charm Monster ability is at will, you could simply say that she cast it over and over and over again until they succumbed.

EDIT: Corrected a bizarre error.

[NNescio]

Well, a Succubus is an Evil Outsider, so regardless of its alignment, it detects evil. If the goody two shoes are there to "Redeem" the succubus, it becomes a bit of a ruse on her end to make it look like she's seen the light, as the two can't trust their spells to glean information from the situation.

Wouldn't an actual good Succubus also detect as Good?

[Shadowknight12]

Wouldn't an actual good Succubus also detect as Good?

She has the Chatoic and Evil subtypes, so even if she was Lawful Good, she'd detect as Chaotic Evil. Shielding techniques take care of that, though.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, a Succubus is an Evil Outsider, so regardless of its alignment, it detects evil. If the goody two shoes are there to "Redeem" the succubus, it becomes a bit of a ruse on her end to make it look like she's seen the light, as the two can't trust their spells to glean information from the situation.
Actually, they can. By using Detect Good. A Lawful-Good Succubus still has the [Evil] and [Chaotic] subtypes, and will register as Lawful, Good, Evil, and Chaotic.

[Greenish]

Wouldn't an actual good Succubus also detect as Good?I think it would.

Of course, if you're just using Detect Evil, you wouldn't notice, and neither of the critters mentioned has Detect Good. :smallamused:

[NNescio]

She has the Chatoic and Evil subtypes, so even if she was Lawful Good, she'd detect as Chaotic Evil. Shielding techniques take care of that, though.

A Lawful Good succubus would detect as Lawful, Chaotic, Good, and Evil.



Evil Subtype

A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above).

So she would ping positive on all Detect Alignment spells.

The use "a multitude of Detect X spells" strategy is also somewhat effective against mind-shielding effects, since anything that is not likely to be True Neutral would then be highly suspicious.


I think it would.

Of course, if you're just using Detect Evil, you wouldn't notice, and neither of the critters mentioned has Detect Good. :smallamused:

Oh yeah. I'd assumed that cleric casting is involved, which isn't the case.

Most people who Detect Evil probably won't use its complementary unless they are paranoid. The succubus is likely to get away with the ruse, since she'll probably won't give the two celestial chumps any reason to suspect anything, with her social skills and all.

[Jack_Simth]

The succubus is likely to get away with the ruse, since she'll probably won't give the two celestial chumps any reason to suspect anything, with her social skills and all.
She'll need to push the scores higher than normal. By default, the Trumpet Archon has a Sense Motive of +18, the Succubus has a bluff of +19, and the Astral Deva has a Bluff of +19.

Additionally, the Trumpet Archon casts as a Cleric-14, which means Detect Good can be brought to the table to ruin the Succubus' day if she attempts to pretend towards being Good.

[Shadowknight12]

A Lawful Good succubus would detect as Lawful, Chaotic, Good, and Evil.

I never said she didn't, I simply said that her subtypes would make her detect as chaotic and evil regardless of her true alignment. I missed the "also" in your question, though, so my bad. :smalltongue:


The use "a multitude of Detect X spells" strategy is also somewhat effective against mind-shielding effects, since anything that is not likely to be True Neutral would then be highly suspicious.

The Mind Shielding class feature of the Fiend of Corruption PrC does explicitly shield against attempts to discern alignment. Using Detect Evil would ping as "not evil" and so would all the other alignment detection spells. It's highly unlikely that a group would use Detect Good on a paladin accompanied by two celestials, but if the OP's party is that paranoid, just tweak the story a little and say that she's a fallen paladin on a quest for redemption.

[Greenish]

Additionally, the Trumpet Archon casts as a Cleric-14Oh yeah, I was thinking about lantern archon for some reason.

[LOTRfan]

Let's assume that the succubus is pretending to be a human paladin. Do either of the outsiders have access to true seeing?

[NNescio]

Let's assume that the succubus is pretending to be a human paladin. Do either of the outsiders have access to true seeing?

It's Cleric 5, so yes.

This is looking to be a very losing proposition for the succubus.

Then again, it's a CR 7 vs two CR 14, so it's expected even if the former is specialized for deception.

[Jack_Simth]

The Mind Shielding class feature of the Fiend of Corruption PrC does explicitly shield against attempts to discern alignment. Using Detect Evil would ping as "not evil" and so would all the other alignment detection spells. Right. Meanwhile, True Seeing (which the Trumpet Archon can access!) will foil the Succubus' attempt to hide her nature, and when the Succubus *doesn't* ping under Detect Evil, that's rather conclusive that the alignment is being concealed.

[Shadowknight12]

Let's assume that the succubus is pretending to be a human paladin. Do either of the outsiders have access to true seeing?

The Trumpet Archon can prepare it as he can cast spells like a 14th level cleric. It's not on his "typical spells prepared" list, however. The Astral Deva doesn't have it as a spell or spell-like ability. Either of them could get it from an item, though.

[OracleofWuffing]

Actually, they can. By using Detect Good. A Lawful-Good Succubus still has the [Evil] and [Chaotic] subtypes, and will register as Lawful, Good, Evil, and Chaotic.
Eh, OP was concerned about Detect and Magic Circle Against Evil, so there's not much there... Simply put, they could just be the kind of people who have their sticks so far up their internals that they aren't going to prepare/buy an item of Detect Good because their mission revolves around finding evil.

[Shadowknight12]

Right. Meanwhile, True Seeing (which the Trumpet Archon can access!) will foil the Succubus' attempt to hide her nature, and when the Succubus *doesn't* ping under Detect Evil, that's rather conclusive that the alignment is being concealed.

It can access it, but it's not a "typical spell prepared." Even if the trumpet archon does prepare it, it only lasts for 14 minutes per casting. Assuming he commits all his spell slots to that, he can only benefit from True Seeing for up to 154 minutes per day. All the succubus needs to do is cast Detect Magic (or get an item that duplicates the effect), hide and wait for the Divination aura to fade.

As for the lack of ping: Fallen paladin sob story.

[faceroll]

Do you mean the succubus would pretend to be, say, a human paladin or the like, or a succubus who happens to be a paladin?

The former, perhaps even having gone so far as soul draining the outsiders' former paladin ally to death and taking his place.

[Greenish]

The former, perhaps even having gone so far as soul draining the outsiders' former paladin ally to death and taking his place.Hmm, you'd need Undetectable Alignment (or the like) not to ping on Detect Evil (should you be on the area when it's used, or if the outsiders are suspicious).

You'd also probably want Cloak of Khyber, or a simple True Seeing blows the whole thing.

[Jack_Simth]

It can access it, but it's not a "typical spell prepared." Even if the trumpet archon does prepare it, it only lasts for 14 minutes per casting. Assuming he commits all his spell slots to that, he can only benefit from True Seeing for up to 154 minutes per day. All the succubus needs to do is cast Detect Magic and wait for the Divination aura to fade.

As for the lack of ping: Fallen paladin sob story.
That may work for a short interaction. For long interactions, there's a number of issues.

1) The specific stock Angel & Archon both have Sense Motive scores within one point of the stock Succubus' Bluff. The succubus pulling off any long-term deception has a low likelihood of success (every lie gets two approx. 50% chances to be detected... which means a roughly 70% chance that any given deception will be caught immediately).
2) A stock Succubus using Change Shape to make a disguise has a +29 modifier - which is substantially better than the +23 Spot of the stock Astral Deva, and the +18 of the stock Trumpet Archon, but is fairly far from a guaranteed success.
3) The Trumpet Archon, with Cleric-14 casting, has access to both True Seeing and the entire Detect [Alignment] line - either of which will cause a Succubus headaches.

Now, if you layer appropriate hit dice / base class levels / PrC class levels onto the Succubus, then these are all surmountable. But the OP-specified "vanilla succubus" is expected to be pretty much up a creek with no paddle in trying to maintain such a deception for very long at all.

[Shadowknight12]

That may work for a short interaction. For long interactions, there's a number of issues.

1) The specific stock Angel & Archon both have Sense Motive scores within one point of the stock Succubus' Bluff. The succubus pulling off any long-term deception has a low likelihood of success (every lie gets two approx. 50% chances to be detected... which means a roughly 70% chance that any given deception will be caught immediately).
2) A stock Succubus using Change Shape to make a disguise has a +29 modifier - which is substantially better than the +23 Spot of the stock Astral Deva, and the +18 of the stock Trumpet Archon, but is fairly far from a guaranteed success.
3) The Trumpet Archon, with Cleric-14 casting, has access to both True Seeing and the entire Detect [Alignment] line - either of which will cause a Succubus headaches.

Now, if you layer appropriate hit dice / base class levels / PrC class levels onto the Succubus, then these are all surmountable. But the OP-specified "vanilla succubus" is expected to be pretty much up a creek with no paddle in trying to maintain such a deception for very long at all.

A plain old succubuss cannot get away with something like this without major cheese. You said it yourself, the opposed skill checks are not in her favour and her chances of overcoming a SR of 29 and 30 to affect them with Charm Monster is effectively impossible (since her bonus to the check is a +6). It simply cannot be done elegantly. You'd have to delve into obscure items and say "She charmed a caster into casting X spell for her," which is the opposite of what the OP is looking for.

The only way this can work is by giving her actual class levels to put her in the vicinity of what she wants to accomplish. Sorcerer works, I suppose, but the 6 HD really hurt her in the long run. I still recommend Fiend of Corruption, it solves a lot of those problems with fantastic simplicity (she needs more ranks? FoC gives her Bluff, Diplomacy and Disguise as class skills. Divinations? She gets Mind Shielding).

Seriously, a plain succubus is going to be a headache to do. Those outsiders are way out of her league.

EDIT: She doesn't need to pull off long-term interaction. All she has to do is sustain the ruse long enough to Charm them.

[blazingshadow]

fiend of blasphemy gives mind shielding and cleric casting alongside healing spells. trumpet archons aren't likely to use detect evil or true seeing on a supposed cleric of their own god

edit: just saw that the fiend of blasphemy's mind shielding is weaker than the fiend of corruption's

[Honest Tiefling]

It is not exactly the same, but I believe that the Lilutu from Fiendish Codex II specializes in posing as good aligned clerics. Lilutus are succubi that have undergone a ritual to become more powerful, so very close! I do not have access to my books, but I believe they have an ability to foil detect alignment spells. Their abilities are focused around posing as a cleric, if I recall correctly, but it might not take that much work to get one to seem like a paladin.

[Shadowknight12]

It is not exactly the same, but I believe that the Lilutu from Fiendish Codex II specializes in posing as good aligned clerics. Lilutus are succubi that have undergone a ritual to become more powerful, so very close! I do not have access to my books, but I believe they have an ability to foil detect alignment spells. Their abilities are focused around posing as a cleric, if I recall correctly, but it might not take that much work to get one to seem like a paladin.

That's actually a great idea, since her Shroud Alignment ability makes her actually detect as Good. She also gets Charm Monster at will and her chances of bypassing SR and the outsiders' saves are not that bad. Her Bluff check is +29, and her Disguise check is +27 (+29 when acting). Add more cleric levels at will. I would probably add 4 to 6, to put her roughly on the same power level as the two celestials, but I don't think it's that necessary. She doesn't have energy drain, however, but if the OP is really into that, flavour-wise, I'm sure she can duplicate its effects with an appropriate cleric spell.

It's on Fiendish Codex I, however.

[Honest Tiefling]

D'oh! Thanks for the save, I tend to forget which Fiendish Codex is which.

[Jack_Simth]

EDIT: She doesn't need to pull off long-term interaction. All she has to do is sustain the ruse long enough to Charm them.You mean the Charm spell, which permits continuing control over the subject, which means the two critters are effectively immune to it anyway due to them both having a continuous Magic Circle Against Evil effect going?

[Urpriest]

How about using a Lilitu instead? They're basically uber-succubi that detect as good and can enter magic circles against evil.

Edit: heavily ninja'd. But also: uber-UMD means they can pull off anything else you need them to as well.

[Shadowknight12]

You mean the Charm spell, which permits continuing control over the subject, which means the two critters are effectively immune to it anyway due to them both having a continuous Magic Circle Against Evil effect going?

The effect does not prevent the target from falling prey to the effect. Cast Charm Monster on them, dispel the MCAE effect and then ask them, pretty please with sugar on top, not to activate it again on their next round. Better yet, use Dominate Monster instead.

EDIT: This only works for the Astral Deva, since there is no "this can be dispelled" clause for the Archon's power and Supernatural abilities can't be dispelled.

EDIT 2: Probably doesn't work without DM fiat, but you can Charm the Archon anyway and then find a way to exploit this rule:


If an abjuration creates a barrier that keeps certain types of creatures at bay, that barrier cannot be used to push away those creatures. If you force the barrier against such a creature, you feel a discernible pressure against the barrier. If you continue to apply pressure, you end the spell.

And then (assuming the "can create it again on the next round" rule applies too) just ask the Archon not to recreate the MCAE effect.

[Big Fau]

The effect does not prevent the target from falling prey to the effect. Cast Charm Monster on them, dispel the MCAE effect and then ask them, pretty please with sugar on top, not to activate it again on their next round. Better yet, use Dominate Monster instead.

EDIT: This only works for the Astral Deva, since there is no "this can be dispelled" clause for the Archon's power and Supernatural abilities can't be dispelled.

EDIT 2: Probably doesn't work without DM fiat, but you can Charm the Archon anyway and then find a way to exploit this rule:


The problem is they suspect something right off the bat there, and once the MCAE goes back up for ANY reason, they are temporarily freedom of the effects (allowing them to switch their own abilities back on and turn against the Succubus).

[Jack_Simth]

The effect does not prevent the target from falling prey to the effect. Cast Charm Monster on them, dispel the MCAE effect and then ask them, pretty please with sugar on top, not to activate it again on their next round. Better yet, use Dominate Monster instead.

EDIT: This only works for the Astral Deva, since there is no "this can be dispelled" clause for the Archon's power and Supernatural abilities can't be dispelled.

EDIT 2: Probably doesn't work without DM fiat, but you can Charm the Archon anyway and then find a way to exploit this rule:



And then (assuming the "can create it again on the next round" rule applies too) just ask the Archon not to recreate the MCAE effect.
Well, as a barrier, it only keeps the Succubus away if she's summoned - which, while possible, is unlikely for a long-running effect, so that doesn't apply, and the effect simply doesn't collapse.

As for the specifics on the mental control bit? It's open to a bit of interpretation, but the two celestials get a version of Magic Circle Against Evil, which inherits from Protection From Evil, which states:

Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature.
(Emphasis added)

The celestials are both, practically speaking, immune to Charming.

[Shadowknight12]

The problem is they suspect something right off the bat there, and once the MCAE goes back up for ANY reason, they are temporarily freedom of the effects (allowing them to switch their own abilities back on and turn against the Succubus).

But she's their friend! She wouldn't lie to them! If she told them that the evil wizard who built the tower they're in has a Contingency effect set in place to fry with massive amounts of damage whoever activates an Abjuration effect, then who are they to doubt her? All she needs is a massive bluff check and she's all set. After that, all the succubus has to do is to keep them out of Magic Circles. Which is good, because it gives her a weakness that is not crippling nor tremendously obvious.

And even if they do happen to step on a Magic Circle effect, the lie she told them still holds. Sure, they're not Charmed anymore, but that doesn't mean they automatically hate her. She just has to convince them to step out of the circle before they figure out something's up.


Well, as a barrier, it only keeps the Succubus away if she's summoned - which, while possible, is unlikely for a long-running effect, so that doesn't apply, and the effect simply doesn't collapse.

As for the specifics on the mental control bit? It's open to a bit of interpretation, but the two celestials get a version of Magic Circle Against Evil, which inherits from Protection From Evil, which states:

(Emphasis added)

The celestials are both, practically speaking, immune to Charming.

Yes, I know all that, which is what my suggestion was aiming at. :smalltongue:

I wasn't talking about the "keeps outsiders at bay" effect, I was talking about the charm suppression. The MCAE effect does not prevent her from affecting them with Charm Monster. It merely suppresses the effects. The Astral Deva's MCAE effect can be dispelled, and the angel has to wait his turn to reactivate it. That gives the succubus a chance to sweet-talk him into not doing so, which should be easy since now that he's charmed. A Lilitu has quickened Suggestion as a spell-like ability, which means she can use (Greater) Dispel Magic and quickened Suggestion on her round, before the Astral Deva has a chance to reactivate the effect.

The Trumpet Archon seems immune to this tactic. Like I said, unless the DM rules that approaching a summoned evil outsider (not necessarily the succubus herself, she could be Called or Plane Shifted and instead summon a patsy to trigger this loophole for her) ends the effect (for a round?) as per the Abjuration rules.

[Sims]

I know what woulda happened if I were playing the Astral Deva. XD (look back at my past threads lol)

But anyways, anything is possible.

[faceroll]

What about elite array/repicking feats/redistribution of skill points?

I was thinking about gestalting sorcerer for 10 levels and adding 3 levels of something else. That way there wouldn't be much HD inflation or having saves/skills way higher than they should be.


How about using a Lilitu instead? They're basically uber-succubi that detect as good and can enter magic circles against evil.

Edit: heavily ninja'd. But also: uber-UMD means they can pull off anything else you need them to as well.

I unfortunately lack FC1, otherwise I would be all over that. Err, um. Use that material enthusiastically.

This isn't coming out right.


The celestials are both, practically speaking, immune to Charming.

Derp. Well, that is enlightening. Back to the drawing board.





Anyone with gestalt, ECL 10 or 11 builds that can trick a couple dumb angels?

[Shadowknight12]

Derp. Well, that is enlightening. Back to the drawing board.

Anyone with gestalt, ECL 10 or 11 builds that can trick a couple dumb angels?

X levels of Sorcerer and 2 scrolls of Mindrape. The DC for that should be 23 (10+9+4). I could construct a scenario where the succubus sneakily casts debuffs on the angels (along the vein of Bestow Curse, Crushing Despair and the like) and therefore "softens them up" before raping their goodly minds, but I don't think that's necessary, since it's mostly just a matter of hand-picking debuffs and coming up with ways to cast them before she gets smitten by the aforementioned angels.