One last theory regarding Miko. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Carry2

2011-06-04, 07:14 PM

This one's a pretty long shot, but it seemed mildly interesting, so I'll go ahead anyway: Maybe, once her spirit departed from her body, Miko's spirit departed through the Rift left after she destroyed the azure city gate.

Why would she do that? Well, curiosity's one possibility. Perhaps a desire to fight the Snarl the only way she could, if only as a futile festure. Maybe she'd drift past the rift entrance, look inside and notice the 'new world' visible through the opening. Maybe she doesn't want to face a lot of dead fellow azurites in the LN/LG afterlives, and this was the one place she could go to escape that.

The only reason for her *not* to go in there, really, is that she'd miss windstriker. Has this been suggested before?

So, if she *did* go through the rift, what might she get up to? Would she be able to talk to the inhabitants? Why is the world there in the first place? Would she attract special interest as an extraplanar 'embassador' of some kind?

Doorhandle

2011-06-04, 07:25 PM

We can't say for sure seeing as we haven't seen engouth of Miko's spirit or the Rift, but I imagine the inhabitants would not be able to even notice her, as they may or may not have magic capable of that.

Knowing Miko's track record, it's probably for the best she wouldn't be able to become a diplomat...

Dr.Epic

2011-06-04, 07:46 PM

We don't really have any evidence that souls can choose to make such journeys as opposed to just going to their final destination in the afterlife.

The Pilgrim

2011-06-04, 07:48 PM

Well, as far as Miko goes, she wasn't aware that she had done anything wrong. If not for Soon's last speech, she would have died thinking that she was going to be welcomed as the best hero ever in the Celestial Realm.

Also, as far as Miko knew, the Snarl is a god-killing, soul-unmaking moster machine. So, the prospect of going straight into it's mouth wasn't exactly attractive for anyone, much less for her.

At her dying scene, Soon's speech doesn't seemed to trigger in Miko a desire for unmaking her wrongs or proving anything. Her reaction looked more like a mixture between "ok, I have had enough, I resign to my fate" and "stupid laws of the Universe that refuse to acknowelde I'm and I've always been Right". So I don't think she had much motivation to go face the Snarl.

Plus, Soon said that she was going to be escorted by the Paladin Spirits to her final resting place. And, since Soon was a 100% stick-in-the-ass Paladin, I doubt he was lying about that. Probably the Celestial Authorities were too scared at the possibility of Miko's spirit going loose and asked him to ensure the girl went locked in a proper safe.

...

Anyway, the only thing I'm sure about, is that this is not going to be the last theory regarding Miko. :smallbiggrin:

Zubzub

2011-06-04, 08:01 PM

Soon says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) that they will usher Miko as they depart to where she's supposed to go now aswell, so she cant be wandering places she finds intriguing as a spirit. I regret to inform Miko fans that she's dead and wont be back.

sims796

2011-06-04, 08:15 PM

137beth

2011-06-04, 10:05 PM

And being a Paladin, Soon would want to send Miko to her "correct" resting place, which is NOT the Snarl:smallwink:

Dr.Epic

2011-06-04, 10:08 PM

And being a Paladin, Soon would want to send Miko to her "correct" resting place, which is NOT the Snarl:smallwink:

He didn't have much of an objection with sending Kraagor there.

ryu

2011-06-04, 10:49 PM

Hey hey hey! Spoiler tags man....

Herald Alberich

2011-06-04, 11:55 PM

Hey hey hey! Spoiler tags man....

Not needed, actually (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9535659#post9535659). There's no prequel-book info here.

hoff

2011-06-05, 12:09 AM

One thing is for sure, this won't be the last theory regarding Miko.

Carry2

2011-06-05, 05:01 AM

We don't really have any evidence that souls can choose to make such journeys as opposed to just going to their final destination in the afterlife.
Eugene seemed to get around okay. I mean, he couldn't actually do anything without the sword, but he was certainly able to visit the material plane.

Also, as far as Miko knew, the Snarl is a god-killing, soul-unmaking moster machine. So, the prospect of going straight into it's mouth wasn't exactly attractive for anyone, much less for her.
Well, the thing is, if she actually inspected the mouth, she'd immediately get some fair evidence that the picture is more complicated.

Plus, Soon said that she was going to be escorted by the Paladin Spirits to her final resting place. And, since Soon was a 100% stick-in-the-ass Paladin, I doubt he was lying about that. Probably the Celestial Authorities were too scared at the possibility of Miko's spirit going loose and asked him to ensure the girl went locked in a proper safe.
I suppose it could be interpreted that way. However, 'usher' doesn't exactly translate as 'forcibly convey'.

Smiling Knight

2011-06-05, 09:47 AM

Well, the thing is, if she actually inspected the mouth, she'd immediately get some fair evidence that the picture is more complicated.

And when has Miko ever accepted evidence that disagreed with her assumptions? :smallamused:

Carry2

2011-06-05, 11:59 AM

And when has Miko ever accepted evidence that disagreed with her assumptions? :smallamused:
Um, maybe here? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html)

I'll agree that Miko showed... less entirely rational behaviour as the strip went on. But if your perspective is that's she's basically nuts, I dunno, maybe she has a deathwish? (As in, an actual, permanent, soul-termination-deathwish?)

*shrugs* Just a thought.

Steward

2011-06-07, 12:20 AM

fwiffo

2011-06-07, 01:09 AM

Miko is gone.
Completely dead.
Nothing else
Needs to be said.

The end.

Ta-da!

Snails

2011-06-07, 01:24 AM

He didn't have much of an objection with sending Kraagor there.

He was willing to risk both Kraagor's and his own death to finally cage the potentially world destroying threat of the Snarl. Kraagor did not make it.

Hmmm...actually it is theoretically possible that Kraagor did survive...

Souhiro

2011-06-07, 09:30 AM

He didn't have much of an objection with sending Kraagor there.

Heyyyy, I know you!
You are that guy, Girard! The one who keep blaming Soon for the death of that dwarf!

The Pilgrim

2011-06-07, 09:37 AM

I always thought that, in this universe, the soul couldn't wander the world -- it was sort of pulled up into the afterlife barring some extraordinary intervention. I don't think Miko will have gone into the snarl, and I don't think that she will reappear again, any more than I think we'll see Samantha or Pompey again.

Pompey is still alive. And if we have seen Zz'dtri again, then the reappearance of any living character is possible.

(Not Miko; Rich went the extra mile with Tsukiko's joke to make clear it won't happen)

Juggling Goth

2011-06-07, 10:10 AM

Eugene seemed to get around okay. I mean, he couldn't actually do anything without the sword, but he was certainly able to visit the material plane.

Eugene was a special case - his spirit couldn't go on to the afterlife until the blood oath had been fulfilled. There's no reason to believe Miko had any equivalent.

Carry2

2011-06-08, 06:58 AM

Eugene was a special case - his spirit couldn't go on to the afterlife until the blood oath had been fulfilled. There's no reason to believe Miko had any equivalent.
I suppose there's some logic to that.

(Well, technically she *did* swear revenge on the OOTS, though I don't suppose that really motivates her to go near the rift, and I'm not sure how metaphysically binding it would be in any case. The other possibility would be her oath to defend the Gates if there was some obvious and pressing threat to them... which there now is.)

On a less serious note, I can very well imagine Miko being referred between various afterlives for admission, given the degree of contention on the forums over her ultimate alignment status. ...And given that they're apparently not allowed to just cast Detect Alignment spells on 'em and be done with it.

The reason why I bring this up is that Paladin Blues does make some mention of Miko as a recurring character... though, given the extent of her absence at this point, I'm not sure if that holds up.

Kish

2011-06-08, 07:13 AM

She recurred plenty during the plots involving her. Recurring character=/=character who is guaranteed to stay in the comic until the very end.

Carry2

2011-06-08, 09:03 AM

She recurred plenty during the plots involving her. Recurring character=/=character who is guaranteed to stay in the comic until the very end.
To be fair, I think the language used suggests a more extended tenure.

On the page facing Strip 174a:
"Besides, I had no future planned for [Samantha and Pa], and I didn't like the idea that every single character has to return to plague the OOTS again later. I already had the Linear Guild and Xykon, and was soon to introduce Miko as an antagonist who would be around on and off for the rest of the OOTS storyline."

Interestingly, it goes on-
"That being said, death is hardly a permanent condition in the OOTSiverse. Unlike in a story told in our world, if I ever come up with a use for them that couldn't be served by a new or existing character, it would be trivially easy to bring them back from the dead. Not that I see that happening, but still. I may be inspired someday."

On the page facing Strip 198:
"It is important to remember that while Miko gets a lot of screen time in this section of the story, she is ultimately a recurring character, not a main character. I liken her status to Nale or Redcloak- major enough to develop her story a little, not major enough to have appear constantly. When her story parts are through, she fades back into the background. Of course, she can always pop up again, in the least expected ways..."

On the page facing Strip 260:
"After the trial, I think it's clear that Miko is the enemy of the OOTS, despite being Lawful Good. Any future meetings with the Paladin will almost certainly be as direct adversaries."

(I actually find the perpetual 'antagonist' description hard to reconcile with recent developments. It's tricky to imagine Miko posing a serious threat to the Order anymore, even if she were revived- she has no more paladin abilities, no allies to speak of, and doesn't seem immediately inclined to go Blackguard. On the other hand, it's hardly more far-fetched than her entering the rift as a kind of alternate afterlife...)

Now, sure, it's possible that Rich simply changed his mind on the subject of having Miko as a regular antagonist/recurring character, but that prompts the question of 'Why?' He's expressly disavowed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9535659#post9535659) ever changing the overall plot structure based on reader feedback, and has supposedly had the broad outline of the storyline worked out since before strip 200. (On the other hand, if the story were pre-ordained, it seems unlikely there'd be any uncertainty over Miko's degree of antagonism, or whether Sam and Pa might recur. Perhaps he's just 'winging it'?)

Flame of Anor

2011-06-08, 10:44 AM

Miko is gone.
Completely dead.
Nothing else
Needs to be said.

The end.

Ta-da!

Hooray!

On the page facing Strip 174a:
"I already had the Linear Guild and Xykon, and was soon to introduce Miko as an antagonist who would be around on and off for the rest of the OOTS storyline."

Uh-oh.

Well, I mean, Miko is a good character. She's just a very infuriating one.

Carry2

2011-06-10, 05:30 PM

Well, I mean, Miko is a good character. She's just a very infuriating one.
Well, hopefully she'd be a little less infuriating if and when her character made a fresh appearance.

For my own part, the thing about her arc that I found most irritating was the sheer amount of bad luck involved in leading her toward specific crises. I mean, sure- she makes bad decisions, but often on the basis of information that is awfully misleading in highly unlikely ways. It's almost like a black comedy at times.

Lord Bingo

2011-06-11, 07:29 PM

Seeing how Roy and his father does not seem to, initially, have been able to control where they went when they died why on earth should we think that Miko might be so empowered that she can skip out on her afterlife altogether?

I imagine Miko is sucking sulfuric fumes in an afterlife that is somewhat hotter than where she might have imagined she would go for her eternal reward, considering how hard she fell from grace.

She did not go through the rift. She went straight to Hell.

She can stay there!

hoff

2011-06-11, 08:47 PM

You know, it would be awesome if belkar met miko in the afterlife. It's quite possible too if miko soul got dragged into the hell or something because of her actions.

Gift Jeraff

2011-06-11, 10:10 PM

If Windstriker can regularly visit Miko, I think it's safe to say she did not end up in the Lower Planes.

hoff

2011-06-12, 12:31 AM

Soon said that but it's not his place to judge the souls of other people (specially since miko was a fallen paladin), plus there are numerous ways that fiends can get their hand on souls of deceased people.

Gurgeh

2011-06-12, 12:39 AM

You are aware that it's possible for a paladin to fall and still be lawful good, right?

137beth

2011-06-12, 12:44 PM

You are also aware that killing without thinking, and unnecessary bloodshed are acts of Evil, right?

The Pilgrim

2011-06-12, 02:20 PM

One single evil act is not enough to change alignment, through is far than enough to make a Paladin fall.

Which, by the way, proves that Miko had performed no evil acts before her fall (or, if she had, she had also attuned herself for them).

Carry2

2011-06-12, 06:40 PM

Seeing how Roy and his father does not seem to, initially, have been able to control where they went when they died why on earth should we think that Miko might be so empowered that she can skip out on her afterlife altogether?
*shrugs* Like I said, it's a long shot. I just can't think of many other ways for Miko to wind up back in the plotline. Maybe she could get revived if/when some coalition of elves and azurite expatriates retakes azure city, but there's otherwise a distinct shortage of high-level clerics in the area able to physically revive her (which, at this point, would probably require a True Resurrection spell in any case.)

I mean, she got a great sendoff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html), no question about it, and no complaints there. And at this point, given the extended absence, it seems more likely than not that we won't be seeing her again. But I don't think I'm misquoting (http://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS04.html) when I say that Rich's earlier statements on the subject suggested a more central story role.

One single evil act is not enough to change alignment, through is far than enough to make a Paladin fall.

Which, by the way, proves that Miko had performed no evil acts before her fall (or, if she had, she had also attuned herself for them).
It's very difficult to be certain about her final alignment. She was both Lawful and Good prior to killing Shojo, but the author is on record as saying- and FWIW I agree with him- that Miko often only adhered to her code of conduct by a razor-thin margin. So, it's conceivable that she was only borderline Lawful and/or Good up to that point. In which case, a single act might well be enough to shove her into some adjacent category (though the burning sulphurous aftermath seems unlikely, particularly if, as others have pointed out, Soon is willing to 'usher' her anywhere.)

Lord Bingo

2011-06-12, 07:39 PM

Whatever good Miko might have intended to do, she was wielding her alignment like a blunt instrument meeting out capital punishment for every infraction against her perceived moral superiority as she thought fit. While we can probably all agreed that Miko acted in accordance with the tenets of the lawful alignment, one would be hard pressed to associate her behavior with the ideals of a good person. Certainly while she was perhaps not technically in violation of the required lawful good alignment, until the very end, no one can claim that Miko acted in the spirit of it.

Now, it has been mentioned that it is possible for a paladin to fall but to remain lawful good nevertheless, and I for one shall not object to this -after all, even good people make mistakes of moral judgement. The thing is, however, that Miko's behavior in those final hours where little or no different from the way she had been acting all along. Miko might not have been evil, but she was not good!

I think it is more than implied by the final conversation between Soon and Miko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) that she will at least not be going to the afterlife she was expecting, but I actually have no idea what happens to a fallen paladin who dies while he or she is in need of atonement to regain her status. In a way I think Miko deserves whatever hell the lawful evil get, but it might be a bit too extreme considering that she was basically just disillusioned.

Gurgeh

2011-06-12, 09:12 PM

Carry2

2011-06-13, 12:09 PM

Whatever good Miko might have intended to do, she was wielding her alignment like a blunt instrument meeting out capital punishment for every infraction against her perceived moral superiority as she thought fit. While we can probably all agreed that Miko acted in accordance with the tenets of the lawful alignment, one would be hard pressed to associate her behavior with the ideals of a good person.
Wait! I did a chart!

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/61a5fe8b52.gif

The thing is, however, that Miko's behavior in those final hours where little or no different from the way she had been acting all along.
I'd have to differ on that point. Miko's earlier behaviour comes across as a lot more reasonable/accomodating than it does after her fracas with Belkar. I mean, even within the short space of time that she spends within the order, there were some faint signs of positive development on her part. She goes from "a paladin never compromises" to, well, compromising with the order about their lodgings at the inn (even going so far as to have the damages of the explosion covered on their behalf.) It's not a huge concession, but it was a start.

Yora

2011-06-13, 12:16 PM

Why does this thread exist? Miko died, we havn't seen her turn undead, and nobody wants to resurrect her.
What reason is there to suspect she's not in the afterlife?

Carry2

2011-06-13, 04:40 PM

Why does this thread exist? Miko died, we havn't seen her turn undead, and nobody wants to resurrect her.
What reason is there to suspect she's not in the afterlife?
Well, if you want a brief recap:
1. Author indicated a recurring role for Miko in distant past.
2. Like you said, she's not alive, not undead, and no-one seems inclined to resurrect her.
3. I'm out of other ideas. When you have eliminated the impossible, etc.

Usual caveat: other scenarios are not impossible, plot projections may have changed. If you mean on a more general, existential level: Well, this thread exists so we can argue. ...And to entertain me. :p

137beth

2011-06-13, 05:29 PM

Well, if you want a brief recap:
1. Author indicated a recurring role for Miko in distant past.
2. Like you said, she's not alive, not undead, and no-one seems inclined to resurrect her.
3. I'm out of other ideas. When you have eliminated the impossible, etc.

Usual caveat: other scenarios are not impossible, plot projections may have changed. If you mean on a more general, existential level: Well, this thread exists so we can argue. ...And to entertain me. :p

Miko got a reoccurring role. She was in the series from the end of the first book to nearly the end of the third. She has been killed, and isn't coming back.

Caractacus

2011-06-13, 06:57 PM

Wait! I did a chart!
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/61a5fe8b52.gif

This deserved far more positive comment than it actually generated...

You shall have a cookie! :smallbiggrin:

Lord Bingo

2011-06-13, 08:41 PM

If you're willing to lump Miko in with Nale and Tarquin - actual, card-carrying Lawful Evil characters, who will presumably be heading down to the OotS equivalent of Baator - then it's obvious you're simply being vindictive. Selfish or not, it takes a fairly selective interpretation of her actions to judge her as evil by any standard.

I did say "in a way I think ..." because I am uncertain what fate she should suffer. Certainly she deserves some sort of punishment, but on the other hand she was trying to be good, in her own misguided way. The Deva Roy encountered let him into the lawful good afterlife rather than bump him down to neutral exactly because he was trying to do the right thing. By the same reckoning a case could be made that Miko could with up in the afterlife she expects, which seems to be supported by Carry2's AWESOME CHART.

Somehow this just does not sit right with me and that might be me being judgemental but I just do not see her as deserving the afterlife of the lawful good. I probably should not consign her to the equivalent of hell either...

faustin

2011-06-14, 03:19 AM

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/61a5fe8b52.gif

:smallcool::smallcool: Impressive, at least.

Carry2

2011-06-15, 08:20 AM

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/61a5fe8b52.gif

This deserved far more positive comment than it actually generated...

You shall have a cookie! :smallbiggrin:
Thanks. :) Well, they do say a picture is worth a thousand words. Saves time, I guess. :p

Somehow this just does not sit right with me and that might be me being judgemental but I just do not see her as deserving the afterlife of the lawful good. I probably should not consign her to the equivalent of hell either...
Oh, I agree it's entirely possible- or even likely- that she didn't make it to Celestia. (I'm guessing Arcadia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcadia_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)) is the nominal first-runner, but really, it's very hard to tell.)

The point you make about Roy's Deva is interesting, because she allowed Roy in for "doing what he thought was best to the limit of his ability, including the limit of his ability to know what was best." Unfortunately, I would say Miko did what she thought was best to the limit of her ability- except for the limit of her ability to know what was best.

I just don't agree with the idea that Miko was always devoid of actual benevolence or potential for self-improvement. Miko is a mixed bag. That's why she's interesting.

ref

2011-06-16, 10:20 AM

I shalll reprise that.

Everytime I look at you I don't understand why you let the things you do get so out of hand.
Did you mean to die that wat? Was that a mistake, or did you know your messy death would be a record breaker?
Miyazaki, Miyazaki... who are you? What have you sacrificed?

Juggling Goth

2011-06-17, 01:55 AM

I think it is more than implied by the final conversation between Soon and Miko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) that she will at least not be going to the afterlife she was expecting

Definitely. The use of "your destination" - a) the author leaving it deliberately blank and b) Soon trying to be gentle with someone who's dying.

Carry2 - that's an awesome chart.

137beth

2011-06-19, 08:41 PM

Second lord bingo. By her death, Miko was at best chaotic neutral.

Awesome chart BTW

faustin

2011-06-20, 02:51 AM

I did say "in a way I think ..." because I am uncertain what fate she should suffer. Certainly she deserves some sort of punishment, but on the other hand she was trying to be good, in her own misguided way. The Deva Roy encountered let him into the lawful good afterlife rather than bump him down to neutral exactly because he was trying to do the right thing. By the same reckoning a case could be made that Miko could with up in the afterlife she expects, which seems to be supported by Carry2's AWESOME CHART.

Somehow this just does not sit right with me and that might be me being judgemental but I just do not see her as deserving the afterlife of the lawful good. I probably should not consign her to the equivalent of hell either...

Spanish High Inquisitor Torquemada tortured and killed thousand of people (mostly Jewish), but he was convinced he was doing God´s will , so that counts for him. So, should he deserve a Chaotic Neutral Afterlife?
At which point (or number of victims) does self-justification stop for being a excuse for evil acts?

Dvandemon

2011-06-20, 03:58 AM

We don't really have any evidence that souls can choose to make such journeys as opposed to just going to their final destination in the afterlife.

This. A thousand times this. You can try to use Eugene but he almost literally can't go anywhere without external help (i.e. the path's already there), let alone into a Rift. Miko could probably decide to go into the Rift, but really why would she? Whatver you think of her she isn't that irrational.

hamishspence

2011-06-20, 04:17 PM

If Windstriker can regularly visit Miko, I think it's safe to say she did not end up in the Lower Planes.

It's possible that the 12 Gods are spread out. For example, Rat is described as one of The Dark One's allies, in SoD.

So- they might not all be in the same plane.

If their divine servants are allowed to visit any plane a deity of the 12 is based in, then you might see, for example, paladin mounts in non-LG planes.

Acheron might be a possibility, if Rat resides there like his ally, The Dark One appears to. It's technically a Lower Plane, despite not actually having a strongly or even mildly Evil alignment.

(The plane isn't explicitly named- but the "plain of iron" description given by Jirix seems to fit. It's also the plane that goblin deities reside on in the Great Wheel D&D cosmology).

Kilo24

2011-06-20, 05:35 PM

...
Acheron might be a possibility, if Rat resides there like his ally, The Dark One appears to. It's technically a Lower Plane, despite not actually having a strongly or even mildly Evil alignment.

(The plane isn't explicitly named- but the "plain of iron" description given by Jirix seems to fit. It's also the plane that goblin deities reside on in the Great Wheel D&D cosmology).

I would have picked Arcadia, seeing as it's the plane of "a-bit-too-much-uncompromisingly-lawful-to-be-actually-lawful-good." Considering that that's basically Miko's schtick...

I'm pretty sure the hypothesizing is a moot point anyway. I doubt we'll see more of Miko, especially not in any significant capacity. I can't think of anyone in the story that would cared enough about her to rifle through the ruins of Azure City and resurrect her (considering the high monetary costs involved).