Monk20/Druid20 Gestalt Build?

[sapmarten]

Let's say you were going for versatility in optimization. What feats would I get?

[Tvtyrant]

Your a Druid with unarmed strike progression; you have basically won the game already.

Feats I would take: Dragon Wildshape, Aberrant Wildshape, Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick, Natural Spell.

In core: Natural Spell, Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike), Multiattack.

[sapmarten]

Wait, I only get one of the two feat progressions?

GRRRRRRRRRRR.

Well, actually now I see why gestalt isn't absolutely broken OP. It's only slightly OP now.

[Kylarra]

Gestalt is actually still ridiculously broken, you just aren't getting that much mileage out of it since monk is only really bringing its Wis to AC, unarmed progression and good reflex saves to the table.

[Fox Box Socks]

Frozen Wildshape so you can become a 12 headed Cryohydra (that...apparently knows kung-fu).

[ShriekingDrake]

Frozen Wildshape so you can become a 12 headed Cryohydra (that...apparently knows kung-fu).

Thank you. I know not why, but that parenthetical made me laugh. :biggrin:

[Arbitrarious]

Kung-fu Panda?

[sapmarten]

Or Shaolin Owl Bear.

[blazingshadow]

take vow of poverty and natural spell and forget that you have more feats or anything else.

[MeeposFire]

Gestalt is actually still ridiculously broken, you just aren't getting that much mileage out of it since monk is only really bringing its Wis to AC, unarmed progression and good reflex saves to the table.

Well imp evasion and greater flurry aren't terrible either since you have decent standard actions (spells) and so if you full attack greater flurry is very nice.

[balistafreak]

take vow of poverty and natural spell and forget that you have more feats or anything else.

Vow of Poverty is an intentional gimp, FYI. But yeah, you basically can take Natural Spell and faceroll your way through normal CR encounters.

[ericgrau]

Gestalt is actually still ridiculously broken, you just aren't getting that much mileage out of it since monk is only really bringing its Wis to AC, unarmed progression and good reflex saves to the table.

You do realize that means now the druid can deal actual damage in his wildshape grapples, and has a huge AC based off his main casting stat.


Vow of Poverty is an intentional gimp, FYI.
... except on druids and monks. Unless you spring for silliness like dire tiger bardi... oh wait you already have a big AC that only works without armor. And now other bonuses on top of that.

What Tvtyrant said. This setup is a bit crazy.

[Kylarra]

It's not a bad setup, it's just not a hugely great setup for showing the benefits of gestalt, and the vaunted AC bonus is available in a relatively cheap item.

[deuxhero]

unarmed swordsage


But yeah, stuff to improve your natural attacks and wildshape+Natural spell.

[ericgrau]

It's not a bad setup, it's just not a hugely great setup for showing the benefits of gestalt, and the vaunted AC bonus is available in a relatively cheap item.

I always get confused about wildshape and polymorph and which items function in each. Seems that wildshape explicitly has an issue with armor, and the rest who knows. T-rex belt I suppose. I checked other forums and they said ask your DM. So I thought hey I'll check wizards.com and they said ask your DM. Seriosuly? Ugh.

Oh well AC isn't gonna matter much in a grapple anyway. The main thing was not only do you have a huge grapple modifier now you actually deal damage to the thing that can't do much back.

[Popertop]

Gestalt is actually still ridiculously broken, you just aren't getting that much mileage out of it since monk is only really bringing its Wis to AC, unarmed progression and good reflex saves to the table.

Rofl its insanely borked but monk is still bad lol

anyways, all you really need is natural spell.

if you really want to crank up the unarmed damage:
fanged ring, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk's Belt

If you weren't a Druid you would need a Necklace of Natural Attacks, but seeing as you can cast Greater Magic Fang, that equip isn't necessary.

some grapple feats would be nice, I think there's one where you can cast while grappling, at least I think I saw it somewhere...

some good stuff for druids in Complete Divine and Complete Champion as well

[Godskook]

Is there a reason you're not going Unarmed Swordsage instead of monk? All the same benefits, and *MORE*.

[Hiro Protagonest]

... except on druids and monks. Unless you spring for silliness like dire tiger bardi... oh wait you already have a big AC that only works without armor. And now other bonuses on top of that.

Contrary to your belief, there are plenty of AC enhancing items that aren't armor. Bracers of armor, amulet of natural armor, ring of force shield, ring of protection, etc. Plus, VoP doesn't give you a bonus to speed and jump checks, like boots of striding and springing, it doesn't give a bonus to stats like a belt of giant strength.

[ericgrau]

^ Ya but can your bear wear bracers and so on in wildshape? It's annoying that they aren't clear and say to ask the DM. Generally barding is better anyway, and the source of the real abuse when you should be paying +3 for such a thing. Eh fairly moot in a grapple anyway as said.

You can use still spell to cast while grappling, but ya there are ways to get automatic still. Maybe if somehow you could find a spontaneous druid variant you could apply still on the fly as needed. Swift or quickened spells would be best so you can keep dealing damage too, but some things can be worth the action.

[Tvtyrant]

Contrary to your belief, there are plenty of AC enhancing items that aren't armor. Bracers of armor, amulet of natural armor, ring of force shield, ring of protection, etc. Plus, VoP doesn't give you a bonus to speed and jump checks, like boots of striding and springing, it doesn't give a bonus to stats like a belt of giant strength.

You get a better stat bonus from VoP then a giant strength belt. +8 is better than +6 unless I have gone mad (tis possible!). You also get to use a Touch of Golden Ice, which with your barrage of natural attacks someone will roll a natural 1 every couple rounds. Also wildshaping into magical beasts! I agree that VoP<items, but in this case the difference is pretty marginal, since your playing 4 characters at once.

And why do you need unarmed swordsage? Beyond the fact you have gone into ToB territory, which is frequently banned, your character is already the equivalent to 4 other characters and has synergy.

[Greenish]

Generally barding is better anyway, and the source of the real abuse when you should be paying +3 for such a thing.Having your armour change with you is +2 (Beastskin, MIC). Keeping the AC while the armour melds into your form is +3 (Wild, DMG).

[Tvtyrant]

Having your armour change with you is +2 (Beastskin, MIC). Keeping the AC while the armour melds into your form is +3 (Wild, DMG).

So a +2 (to AC) Wild armor costs 25,000 GP? Yeesh, for that much you could get a +5 normally. Yeah this is more than cheap at upper levels, but it seems breathtakingly expensive to keep your items in wildshape at lower levels.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Having your armour change with you is +2 (Beastskin, MIC). Keeping the AC while the armour melds into your form is +3 (Wild, DMG).

And for everything else, there are wildingclasps! (Complete Adventurer, MiC):smallbiggrin:

[Godskook]

And for everything else, there are wildingclasps! (Complete Adventurer, MiC):smallbiggrin:

It should even work on armor too, depending on how your DM interprets things.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'll echo the Unarmed Swordsage. Shadow bear strike!

Assuming you stay monk (it's not a big deal, given that you have druid on the other side), and just want feat advice, I'd go for Wall of Bears and go SF: Conjuration to Augment Summoning and, most importantly, Greenbound Summoning. Oh, right, Natural Spell at level 6. Yes, you join the fray and tear stuff up with your bear-fu, right after your augmented greenbound bears of doom. Have a bear animal companion for style points.

[Cespenar]

With that many levels, I'd cram in a level of Rogue, Craven, Savage Grapple, Fist of the Forest, and if possible, MoMF and Warshaper too.

[Philistine]

Is there a reason you're not going Unarmed Swordsage instead of monk? All the same benefits, and *MORE*.
Presumably it's the same reason full caster//full caster gestalts aren't that awesome in practice: Action Economy. Monk brings lots of passive bonuses to the table, but taking advantage of Maneuvers costs actions.


With that many levels, I'd cram in a level of Rogue, Craven, Savage Grapple, Fist of the Forest, and if possible, MoMF and Warshaper too.
+1 to this. You should at the very least take one level of Fist of the Forest and three levels of Warshaper - grab a Monk's Belt if you really feel like you're losing out by giving up those four Monk levels.

[Urpriest]

Do you start out at level 20 or work your way up?

[mootoall]

The benefit of UASS in this situation isn't your standard action maneuvers, silly! It's your vast wealth of stances, boosts and counters, which, unless you're quickening a lot of spells, are useful when meleeing. And the UASS gets preeeety much all of the passive bonuses of the Monk, plus UAS synergy if you specialize in Tiger Claw.

[Morph Bark]

Presumably it's the same reason full caster//full caster gestalts aren't that awesome in practice: Action Economy. Monk brings lots of passive bonuses to the table, but taking advantage of Maneuvers costs actions.

Let the spellcasting be done out of combat. Use Wildshape and maneuvers in combat. Tadaa!

Alternatively: Totemist.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The benefit of UASS in this situation isn't your standard action maneuvers, silly! It's your vast wealth of stances, boosts and counters, which, unless you're quickening a lot of spells, are useful when meleeing. And the UASS gets preeeety much all of the passive bonuses of the Monk, plus UAS synergy if you specialize in Tiger Claw.


Let the spellcasting be done out of combat. Use Wildshape and maneuvers in combat. Tadaa!

These. Prepare all healing spells or something, then blast the enemies in combat with your maneuvers. You can always swap out a healing spell for summon nature's ally, and you can use that in the same round you use a counter.

[mootoall]

Ah, I meant Shadow Hand, by the way, not Tiger Claw. That's the one with UAS as a discipline weapon.

[FMArthur]

Ah, I meant Shadow Hand, by the way, not Tiger Claw. That's the one with UAS as a discipline weapon.

It's one of the four disciplines with unarmed strike as a discipline weapon. They are Setting Sun, Stone Dragon, Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw.

[Godskook]

Presumably it's the same reason full caster//full caster gestalts aren't that awesome in practice: Action Economy. Monk brings lots of passive bonuses to the table, but taking advantage of Maneuvers costs actions.

Except:
1.Swordsage maneuvers aren't all combat oriented, nor are they all within the move/standard/full action area. Swift/Immediate action maneuvers are invaluable, even on a Druid, cause quicken spell is incredibly expensive *AND* those maneuvers add a lot of useful things, such as swift action movement, damage boosters, and ablative defenses(counter charge and the 3 concentration save maneuvers)
2.Exactly what is Monk 'passively' bringing to the table that Swordsage is not? Other than bonus feats, few are useful, and most can be replicated with either equipment or swordsage class features.
3.Actually, part of the reason that caster//caster isn't spectacular in gestalt is that you're missing out on the mechanical benefits of things like better HD, better saves and better BAB. Another is that it is *GESTALT*, and why would you bother with caster//caster when far more interesting combos await you? Sure, passive bonuses help, but wizard//druid > monk//druid. All you gotta do is make a strong emphasis on both sides towards the buffing. Persistent superior magic fang is spectacular, and is easier to pull off with wizard/incantrix//druid than it is with just druid.


Ah, I meant Shadow Hand, by the way, not Tiger Claw. That's the one with UAS as a discipline weapon.

They both get UAS as a discipline weapon. The two disciplines were probably meant to be used together a lot, not only for that reason, but also cause the tiger claw prestige class specifically allows for daggers, despite them not being a tiger claw weapon(giving swordsages two weapon choices when prestiging into it).