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Meeky
2011-06-04, 11:16 PM
Hello there. My name’s Meeky, and I’ve always been a fan of the monk class. I’ve only ever played one once, and I realize that it, by nature, isn’t the mightiest of all classes. However, I’ve never felt it’s as useless as many members of this board make it out to be. Of course, that can be argued for days, but that’s not the goal of this thread -- The goal of this thread is to try and make a halfway decent monk build that makes up for some of the class’s generally accepted downfalls.

If what I’ve provided below has been done before, namely on this forum, please feel free to slap me and call me a ninny. I’m trying to come up with something new-ish that may be regarded as a useful application of monk abilities and such.

Firstly, it can be contended that the monk’s AC bonus is pretty negligible when combined with the fact that monks must be unarmored to reap most of their benefits, including that AC bonus. The build I provide will hopefully make the monk’s defensive abilities, including its AC, very delicious.

Secondly, it can be contended that Flurry of Blows should be renamed “Flurry of Misses.” The build I provide will hopefully provide the opportunity to turn the monk into something that doesn’t miss as much with a little bit of inventive multiclassing after the level goal here (level 11, ECL: 12) has been reached, as far in the future as that may be for an aspiring monk.

Thirdly, I wish to prove that the above can be done using only the three 3.5 core rulebooks supplied by Wizards of the Coast: The Player’s Handbook, the Dungeon Master’s Guide, and the Monster Manual. The use of outside material, even from other Wizards books, is optional. Everything necessary for this build is within these three books.

(EDIT: Thanks to OracleofWuffing, it should be noted that Maxie actually cannot, without houseruling, take levels of monk and THEN Paladin and then BACK to monk without taking a feat from the Complete Adventurer. However, it is possible to make this build without using that feat simply by leveling straight through one class and then the other -- probably paladin and THEN monk, in retrospect.

Also, Greenish pointed out that the defender bonuses in this build can actually be applied to a lot of other characters with similar funds. Maxie does have the benefit of extra saves and AC from stat bonuses, but the defender bonus stacking is not unique. I have been slapped and called a ninny.)

Finally, I wish it to be noted that if there is any official errata or similar source that makes this build unusable, I’m open to such information being presented. After all, I want this to be something that can be accepted by rules lawyers everywhere, with or without a grumble, so fine-tuning this build according to errata is fine by me.

With that said, I wish to present to you…

Maxie Parry, Aasimar Monk 8 / Paladin 3

Maxie isn’t actually all that intimidating a fellow. At level 1, before racial benefits and score allocation, he had a slightly above average array: 16, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8. However, using his racial benefits, we get the following stats for him at level 1 (ECL: 2):

STR 14, DEX 12, CON 10, INT 8, WIS 18 and CHA 18.

This may hardly seem optimal at first glance, particularly considering the fact that Charisma is fairly useless outside of social situations, but Maxie has his reasons for this.

Now, Maxie is going to start his career as a monk, but after getting two levels in it, he’s going to get three in paladin. At this level, he’s not particularly powerful, but certain things should be noted as his benefits:

1.) Without the use of feats or items, Maxie’s saving throws are as follows: 10 Fortitude, 9 Reflex, 13 Will. This makes him fairly difficult for spell casters to take out with a non-direct damaging spell.
2.) Without the use of feats or items, Maxie’s AC is a mere 16. Of course, this also means 16 AC against touch attacks and 15 when flatfooted, but it’s still a low number overall, especially for a level 5 (ECL: 6) character.
3.) Maxie is immune to both disease and fear, and probably picked up Snatch Arrows for extra defense at his second monk level. Evasion from the Monk class gives Maxie that extra edge against spellcasters again, making those nasty Fireball spells less of a hassle for our brave little quasi-celestial human. All in all, this is a solid defense against many attacks.
4.) Finally, Maxie can use Divine wands and scrolls because of his paladin levels (as you only need to have levels in a class that can eventually cast spells to use magical items without a use magic device check). This won’t be important yet, as Maxie only has the funds of your typical ECL 6 character, but we’ll see if it helps him out later.

Given these facts, we have a level 5 character that can face off against most spellcasters without a hinch but will ultimately die when facing other martial combatants. This, of course, is highly unacceptable. This is why Maxie is going to spend his hard-earned gold on a few magical items.

The first thing to note, before reading onward, is that the wording concerning monks and Unarmed Strike’s limitations is very specific. In fact, it’s so specific, it goes out of the way to help Maxie be a better defensive specialist.

Below is a quote from page 41 of the Player‘s Handbook, concerning Unarmed Strike:

“… A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes even with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed.”

Translation: Even if Maxie is balancing a bucket of water on his head and wielding a greatsword in each hand, non-proficient with either, he can run around kicking people in the nads without penalty so long as he isn’t actually doing anything with the greatswords.

Now, it just so happens that there’s a handy-dandy little weapon enchantment in the Dungeon Master’s Guide that reaps a very nice defensive benefit. To quote directly from the text on page 224:

“A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s (I believe they meant ‘weapon’, not ‘sword’ here, but we can roll with either) enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement at the start of his turn, before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.”

Let’s rewind that for a moment. Read this again…

“… enhancement bonus to AC as a bonus that stacks with all others.”

Maxie Parry is giggling right about now.

What what I can ascertain, this means that Maxie Parry can have a weapon that he never uses to attack but holds in his hand. It provides a bonus to AC that stacks with all others.

So, if it stacks with all others, what if he had two of them?

This can be achieved by one of two ways: Maxie, if he believes that only swords can be ‘defending’, can use his paladin levels to get some small, cheesy weapon that’ll give him those benefits and not way him down -- Say, a shortsword. He takes two shortswords, gets them enchanted, and dances with them as he fights in combat just to block incoming attacks with them.

Alternatively, we can stay true to the ‘Monk’ part of Maxie and use, say, a quarterstaff. A quarterstaff can be enchanted as a double weapon, and double weapons have separate enchantments for each end (for balance purposes). Therefore, Maxie Parry can just carry a big, magical stick instead of those pesky pokers. Yes. I like this image better.

Now, defending is a +2 magical item quality, so, right now, let’s just say that Maxie’s quarterstaff (or his two shortswords) has each side enchanted to be defending +2. This is a fairly expensive enchantment for this level, that’s true, and it’s a bit unrealistic, but let’s use it anyway. This means that, without any other enchanted equipment, Maxie’s measly 15 AC has jumped up to 19, so long as he holds this magic stick as he kicks people in the groin. Handy, that. It’s not a huge number, but again, this is a character with only a dexterity of 12, and no other magical items thus far.

Let’s go ahead and level Maxie up further, all the way to 8th level of monk, his goal, which brings him to a character level of 11 and an ECL of 12.. Let’s assume he hasn’t acquired any new magical items just yet, and instead just has a massive sack of gold with him. We’re also not going to assign his two stat points yet because, frankly, we need to see what he’s lacking. By now, his benefits from his classes are as follows:

1.) A total base attack bonus of 9, which is 2 less than he’d have had if he’d have gone 11 levels in a strictly melee class (fighter/ranger/paladin).
2.) A Flurry of Blows that, therefore, uses 8/8/3 from base attack bonus, without any feats or stats taken into account. While perhaps not as good as a solid 12/7/2 from a fighter of equal ECL, it’s still solid enough on its own. Of course, our friend’s average(ish) stat scores may impede him, but at least his actual attack damage from his Unarmed Strike is now 1d10 and counts as magical.
3.) His saves have all increased by 2 due to monk levels. This may not seem like much, but that turns his saves into: 12 Fortitude, 11 Reflex, 15 Will. Still a very mean roll to make against any spellcaster or poison, and did I mention that Maxie has a +2 additional bonus to save against Enchantment spells and effects from Still Mind?
4.) Maxie now has both Lay on Hands (for a total of 8 HP healed over a single day) and Wholeness of Body (for a total of 16 HP healed over a single day). That’s 14 HP that Maxie can heal himself for without having to resort to the use of wands or outside assistance. Considering that he only has 10 constitution, that’s not bad.
5.) Finally, our little friend has extra utility now. He can fall 40 feet without going ka-splat, can run an additional 20 feet faster than normal while unarmored and, wielding only his magical quarterstaff and ordinary clothes, has had his AC raised up to 20.

Now, remember again: All of this has been accomplished without ANY specific feats being taken, and with only ONE magical item, the defending +2 / defending +2 quarterstaff (or two magical items if you really think he should just use swords instead). And since Maxie has an ECL of 12 by now, he’d obviously have a LOT better equipment.

So, you know what? Let’s go hog wild with a few magical items.

Firstly, we’re going to bump up the staff to being defending +5 / defending +5. This is an immediate jump of 6 AC for a total of 10 from his weapon which, again, stacks with ALL other AC bonuses. If you want to bother with natural, deflection, and armor AC bonuses, let’s give him +3 robes for armor bonus, a +2 ring of protection, and a +2 amulet of natural armor. So, 20 + 6 + 3 + 2 +2... Carry the ‘1’…

Oh, whoa. At ECL 12, character level 11, Maxie Parry has 33 AC. And this isn’t with the most powerful items -- or a shield bonus. Or improved dexterity. Or his two, unallocated bonus stat points from 4 and 8.

Let’s read up on something else in the PHB real fast, something about monks and their AC bonuses they get for being unarmored:

“When unarmored and unencumbere, the monk adds her wisdom bonus (if any) to AC… She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.”

So, we can’t use any magical shield tricks. Maxie can’t have a buckler on his arm, nor can he have an animated shield floating over his head, because animated shields “still any penalty associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure, and nonproficiency,” and the loss of that magical wisdom bonus and half of the monk’s abilities. Drat.

But you know what we can use? Spells that grant shield bonuses to AC. In this case, a simple potion of Shield from the arcane stuff can provide an additional +4 AC. Perhaps hean even get an item that lets Maxie cast it so many times per day, perhaps as a free action -- Whatever. In a fight, that’ll bring his AC up to 37, which isn’t a number to laugh at.

Now, let’s make him more obnoxious. The following level 2 spells all last for an hour per spellcaster level and give +4 to their respective stats: [I]Bull’s Strength, Bear’s Endurance, Cat’s Grace, Owl’s Wisdom, and Eagle’s Splendor. So, Maxie is going to have a wand of each, which he can use due to paladin levels, of caster level 3. He’s going to enchant himself with them before each fight. This has the following effects:

1.) His attack bonus and damage are each increased by 2;
2.) His AC will increase by 4 more points, due to both Wisdom and Dexterity increasing, bringing that up to 41.
3.) His saves will all increase by 2, due to his paladin ability Divine Grace, which boosts his saves up to 14 Fortitude, 13 Reflex, and 17 Will.
4.) His max HP will be boosted by 22 points, which is major for him because Constitution is his lowest score next to intelligence.
5.) Finally, because we raised DEX, CON and WIS each, Maxie's saves increase by ANOTHER 2 points. 16 Fortitude, 15 Reflex, and 19 Will are his saves while under the effects of all five of his wands.

What does this mean? Because Maxie is a monk and a paladin, he can turn himself into a nigh-indestructable force of doom. He fights using parts of his body besides his hands, which allow him to hold AC-specific items in his hands so as to give him extra AC. All Maxie needs to do this is a little bit of money.

We have done this using 0 feats, allowing for great customization for Maxie. We have done this using only material found within the three core rulebooks. We have done it in such a way that Maxie’s defenses incur jealousy in many poor sods, though perhaps a solid Drow with the same class levels would make Maxie seem weak due to the innate Spell Resistance. Furthermore, Maxie can use his feats to focus on offensive techniques if he really desires, allowing him a chance to stay up to speed with the party’s resident Fighter.

And if Maxie’s DM wants to argue that he can’t have two defender weapons both providing AC bonuses, despite the text from the DM’s guide saying otherwise -- That’s fine. Maxie still has 36 AC to play with, and that end of the staff can be ignored or used for other enchantments. (Or his single shortsword, if you still want to use those. But, really -- Isn’t it better to speak softly and carry a big stick?)

From here, Maxie can develop however he likes, dipping into other handbooks as he pleases. Perhaps he’ll take up the Kensai PrC from the Complete Warrior to enhance his body, thus giving it magical qualities. Perhaps he’ll keep leveling up as a monk. Maybe his DM allows a house rule that’ll let him have magical handwraps give his fists magical properties (or footwraps, if he’s allowed to keep both sides of the quarterstaff as Defender). Either way, he’s sure to lead a happy adventuring life.

We’ve done all this WITHOUT overpowered stats. Again, we started with 16, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8. This is a good roll, to be sure, but it fits perfectly into a 32 point buy system and started without a single 18 to accomplish the effects we desired.

Well, I hope this has been an enjoyable read for you. Maxie sure liked it. He’s flexing over there in the corner, see? If you notice anything incorrect about this build, please let me know, and feel free to play with a build similar to this if you ever want to experiment with playing a monk that can stand up for his class. Either way, that’s all I’ve got to offer about this class; so happy hunting and monster smashing and so forth.

Greenish
2011-06-04, 11:24 PM
Armour spikes, spiked gauntlets, sleeve blades, boot blades, braid blades, any character can stack defending weapons.

But yeah, wealth translates to power pretty easily, and unlimited wealth, well…

OracleofWuffing
2011-06-04, 11:33 PM
Let’s go ahead and level Maxie up further, all the way to 8th level of monk, his goal, which brings him to a character level of 11 and an ECL of 12..
Did I miss a Feat selection here? Once you leave the Monk class, you can no longer level up in Monk again.

Meeky
2011-06-04, 11:33 PM
Armour spikes, spiked gauntlets, sleeve blades, boot blades, braid blades, any character can stack defending weapons.

But yeah, wealth translates to power pretty easily, and unlimited wealth, well…

That's one of the issues. I didn't consider spikes / boot items when doing this (considering those are things monks probably can't / shouldn't be using). But the main part of this is that, because he's a Monk/Paladin specifically, he gets more obscene defensive benefits from his stat boosts.

Again: With all wands up, he'll get a total of +4 to all saves and +4 to AC. If he had wands that granted +6 to each stat, that'd be +6 to those instead. His defense is nasty.

But you're right -- His main toy here is wealth, and that staff would be extremely expensive. But now that you mention weapon / armor spikes and so forth... Hrm.

...

Maxie would not be happy to fight a fighter with that same Defender enchantment on his spikes.

Still, thank you for pointing that out. It's something for me to consider, since those are all ways to TECHNICALLY wield the weapon without having it impeding your attacks as a non-monk.

Meeky
2011-06-04, 11:35 PM
Did I miss a Feat selection here? Once you leave the Monk class, you can no longer level up in Monk again.

Crud.

In that case, Maxie has two options: He can go straight monk and then paladin, or straight paladin and then monk, if we wish to remain true to my post. (I think I'll edit that in.) Alternatively, there's a feat from the Complete Adventurer that could work, but our goal is to do this with only the PHB.

Thanks for noticing that!

Greenish
2011-06-04, 11:38 PM
There's a monk/paladin multiclassing feat that solves it.

Of course, by ECl 11-12 it isn't too hard to get Wis to AC in armour, Wis to saves, wis to attack twice, wis to damage and other nifty stuff.


And yes, a monk with unlimited wealth and unlimited buff rounds can be a decent combatant, but so can a commoner 1, so that hardly means anything.

[Edit]: Which reminds me, is there a point to this whole show?

gallagher
2011-06-04, 11:45 PM
i forget where the feat is or what it is called, but there is one that lets you key your monk abilities off of your charisma. if anything, that will help stop the MADness.

also, ascetic knight from complete adventurer would help keep your fists doing the talking.

also, with a monk 2/paladin 5 base, you could also enter sacred fist or tattooed monk. at level 8 you will have alter self once per day for an hour. ta da, you are more effective.

ACFs i would consider are the ones that trade away your mount for something better on a charge, and also decisive strike, which would allow you to attack only once, but it would be a double damage attack. you can smite evil on top of this, and i believe also do it at the end of a charge. with battle blessing, you will also be able to cast your paladin spells from wands at swift speed (and you have wand compartments in your defending weapons, right?)

Honest Tiefling
2011-06-04, 11:47 PM
Where is Maxie from? If you play Forgotten Realms, I believe a few monk orders allow for free monk/paladin multiclassing without the feat. Someone is using my computer to play New Vegas, but I believe that the Faiths and Pantheons web enchancement has the expanded multiclassing rules to allow you to go with Ilmater, Torm or possibly Tyr or Lathander for this build.

Bonus, FR has both aasimar, and the lesser aasimar for all of your racial needs.

Greenish
2011-06-04, 11:47 PM
i forget where the feat is or what it is called, but there is one that lets you key your monk abilities off of your charisma.Ascetic Mage.


with battle blessing, you will also be able to cast your paladin spells from wands at swift speedI very much doubt Battle Blessing works on spell trigger items.

[Edit]:
if anything, that will help stop the MADness.As far as I can discern, being MAD is the point of the build, assumedly to gain the benefit from most buffs. Keying monk's AC to Cha or paladin's Divine Grace to Wis would mean that one of those buffs would have less effect.

Meeky
2011-06-04, 11:49 PM
The point was, mostly, to show that a Monk with slight multiclassing, trying to stay as close to the core rulebooks as possible, can be a fairly competent character in a combat situation, even up against a fighter or typically superior melee character, given the same funds and so forth. (Of course, having naturally cruel saving throws due to class benefits helps a lot with this.)

Consider it a post of a (mostly) developed way to, without necessarily unlimited but certainly large funds, to display how that character might work. By merit of being a defense-jerkface. Which could probably still even make a decent spellcaster angry.

Again, I appreciate all the input you're all giving. I'm editing the top post as I go to mirror the points being made. Again: I'd like all major flaws and smack-worthy problems to be named so I can toy with this, but at least I've learned two things...

A) A monk/paladin with potions/wands of stat bonuses is rude.
B) Defender bonuses can go on ARMOR SPIKES. That's even ruder.

I like both tidbits of knowledge.

EDIT: Oh, and Maxie is from... Uh... Nowhere in particular. He's a Timelord. Like Doctor Who. Yeah.

gallagher
2011-06-04, 11:49 PM
also, if you are trying to do this in-core only, i would suggest going monk 2/ paladin X and try to abuse the heck out of having a mount.

you would probably still want to dip fighter for 2 levels or cleric for spells

gallagher
2011-06-04, 11:50 PM
B) Defender bonuses can go on ARMOR SPIKES. That's even ruder.



i fail to see how armor spikes would help an unarmored character...

maybe spiked shoulder pads?

Greenish
2011-06-04, 11:52 PM
The point was, mostly, to show that a Monk with slight multiclassing, trying to stay as close to the core rulebooks as possible, can be a fairly competent character in a combat situation, even up against a fighter or typically superior melee character, given the same funds and so forth.Then you fail. Rather entertainingly, but still.

Meeky
2011-06-04, 11:52 PM
i fail to see how armor spikes would help an unarmored character...

maybe spiked shoulder pads?

Oh, it wouldn't help MAXIE in particular. But it could be used for other characters, such as evil NPCs that I want to beat my players up. Not that I want any of them to see this post or get ideas like this.

...

Well, it's a good thing none of them are watching!

OracleofWuffing
2011-06-04, 11:54 PM
If I am doing the math correctly (read: I'm building this in PCGen, which isn't my forte but it'll be more accurate than if I actually did the math), A +5 +5 Defending Defending Quarterstaff would be 144,600 gold. Actually, I believe a one-sided +5 (No defending) quarterstaff is 50,300. While that is under your WBL, it should be noted that the DMG suggests limiting players expenditures to no more than a quarter of their wealth on a single item.

Meeky
2011-06-04, 11:56 PM
Then you fail. Rather entertainingly, but still.

I personally disagree, but so long as you found it entertaining, I'm satisfied with that response.

He can't do quite the same damage simply using a straight point-buy, but he can compete, albeit not on the level everyone dances for. He can achieve equal or better defenses (if they have the same funds) as a fighter-type due to the merit of greater stat benefits from a cheap potion or wand. In that, I see untapped potential.

Just my personal belief, as silly as it might be. Which it probably is.

Meeky
2011-06-04, 11:59 PM
If I am doing the math correctly (read: I'm building this in PCGen, which isn't my forte but it'll be more accurate than if I actually did the math), A +5 +5 Defending Defending Quarterstaff would be 144,600 gold. Actually, I believe a one-sided +5 quarterstaff is 50,300. While that is under your WBL, it should be noted that the DMG suggests limiting players expenditures to no more than a quarter of their wealth on a single item.

I didn't know that last part (about the 1/4 wealth suggestion), so that's good to know. It's only a suggestion, but it DOES keep players from wasting all their money in one place (as it's typically wiser to spread it out amongst multiple items, anyway).

Still, a +2 defending item along with +1 clothing and wands, +1 ring, +1 amulet -- Work your way up from there and that's more understandable, and less pricey. I may consider noting that, too, as that'd be the more realistic approach to achieving the defensive capabilities aimed for.

gallagher
2011-06-04, 11:59 PM
if you can get outside of core a little, i would also suggest looking at zen archery.

trying to focus on wisdom would let you throw shuriken better than punching them. lower damage, but it is cheap to enchant them. only buy as many as you can flurry with and make them returning.

Greenish
2011-06-05, 12:00 AM
He can achieve equal or better defenses (if they have the same funds) as a fighter-type due to the merit of greater stat benefits from a cheap potion or wand. In that, I see untapped potential.Yeah, if you want to burn all your money and spend your rounds in combat provoking attacks of opportunity.

Even without burning your actions on potions and wands, can you actually do something useful in an EL 12 encounter?


…Also, partially charged wands are cheaper. :smalltongue:

Meeky
2011-06-05, 12:07 AM
Yeah, if you want to burn all your money and spend your rounds in combat provoking attacks of opportunity.

Even without burning your actions on potions and wands, can you actually do something useful in an EL 12 encounter?


…Also, partially charged wands are cheaper. :smalltongue:

--Partially charged wands. Yes. Very yes.

But you don't have to actually use the wands in combat. Typically, if you're going with your ordinary dungeon crawling campaign, you know beforehand when there's danger ahead. Typically.

Now, all the spells I listed Maxie having wands for last 1 hour per caster level. 1 hour = 60 rounds. The caster level of the most basic wands for these spells is 3. Therefore, ordinary CL 3 wands of <insert the buff's name here> last 180 rounds, or 3 hours.

IMO, you can cast this before entering a dungeon, or just before opening a door. Come battle time, all you do is fight.

Edit: Zen Archery -- I think that's Core now, actually. Player's Handbook feat?

Greenish
2011-06-05, 12:08 AM
Edit: Zen Archery -- I think that's Core now, actually. Player's Handbook feat?Nope, Complete Warrior.

Meeky
2011-06-05, 12:10 AM
Oh well. But yeah -- Zen Archery is a feat I'd look into with that high of a wisdom score, for sure. Again, that's where the 'No feats have been taken (if we don't follow my silly directions about Monk>Paladin>Monk on the first post)' can be useful for character customization.

...Heeee. Two-weapon fighting hand crossbow slinging monk. That image makes me laugh, despite how ineffective that'd be.

Cog
2011-06-05, 12:17 AM
I'm surprised Argent Fist hasn't come up yet - it's a Monk/Paladin stacking PrC from Faiths of Eberron, and gives you the full benefits of Ascetic Knight (the mentioned stacking feat) in addition to some other goodies.

Greenish
2011-06-05, 12:18 AM
Incidentally, I've also toyed with monk/paladin aasimar, but I took the concept basically to the opposite direction.

Here's Serenity:

"Serenity"
Arctic Aasimar
STR: 14 DEX: 14 CON: 16 INT: 10 WIS: 18 CHA: 10 (before level up or magic bonuses)

1 Monk1: IUS, Combat Expertise, Travel Devotion
2 Monk2: Monastic Training
3 Paladin1: Alertness
4 Paladin2 (Iron Will from magical location)
5 Paladin3
6 Paladin4: Serenity
7 Argent Fist1
8 Argent Fist2
9 Shiba Protector1: Power Attack

gallagher
2011-06-05, 12:18 AM
Oh well. But yeah -- Zen Archery is a feat I'd look into with that high of a wisdom score, for sure. Again, that's where the 'No feats have been taken (if we don't follow my silly directions about Monk>Paladin>Monk on the first post)' can be useful for character customization.

...Heeee. Two-weapon fighting hand crossbow slinging monk. That image makes me laugh, despite how ineffective that'd be.
you know, you dont HAVE to flurry, either. you can just have a beefed up unarmed strike and just do a regular full attack and have your last attack throw a net. it is only a touch attack, and if you are able to put a little more into strength, you could entangle and control the opponent. if they fail to escape, you can flurry against them in their twisted-up-state

Greenish
2011-06-05, 12:21 AM
Now, all the spells I listed Maxie having wands for last 1 hour per caster level.Except for Bull’s Strength, Bear’s Endurance, Cat’s Grace, Owl’s Wisdom, Eagle’s Splendor and Shield, which only have min/lvl.

Meeky
2011-06-05, 12:23 AM
...Gall, that's actually a VERY impressive idea, and a fairly simple one. I like that. Seriously.

Don't give me too many cruel ideas to use against my players, though.

Hrm. In Faiths of Ebberon, specifically? I only have Races of Eberron, so that's slightly problematic for me, but I'm going to look that PrC up. That sounds... interesting.


"Serenity"
Arctic Aasimar
STR: 14 DEX: 14 CON: 16 INT: 10 WIS: 18 CHA: 10 (before level up or magic bonuses)

1 Monk1: IUS, Combat Expertise, Travel Devotion
2 Monk2: Monastic Training
3 Paladin1: Alertness
4 Paladin2 (Iron Will from magical location)
5 Paladin3
6 Paladin4: Serenity
7 Argent Fist1
8 Argent Fist2
9 Shiba Protector1: Power Attack

Was that game minorly house ruled? Combat Expertise normally requires 13+ intelligence, doesn't it?

EDIT: One minute per level?

...Well, butter my biscuits. That severely reduces the effectiveness of turning them on at the START of the dungeon. Before a fight still works, but ouch.

Thanks for the heads up.

DOUBLE EDIT: Yeah, just verified that. Where the Heck did I get 1 hour per level from on those spells? (Though I knew Shield was a 1 minute/level one.)

Gorgondantess
2011-06-05, 12:25 AM
I fail to see what's so impressive about this guy. Let's see... ECL 12? How would he stand up to being slapped in the middle of a web with an acid fog thrown on top of that? An excellent combo any wizard- and indeed, many sorcerers- would have at their disposal by this level, and with quicken spell it's only 1 round.
Or just a black tentacles spell.
Ooh, and one level later and he has to start dealing with forcecages.

Greenish
2011-06-05, 12:26 AM
Was that game minorly house ruled? Combat Expertise normally requires 13+ intelligence, doesn't it?Sir, you wound me for suggesting I'd post something not RAW legal without specifying it as such. :smalltongue: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#passiveWay)

I only needed Combat Expertise for that damned Shiba Protector, I'd much rather taken Stunning Fist, what with Argent Fist's ability to boost the DC, but alas that had to wait.

Meeky
2011-06-05, 12:30 AM
I fail to see what's so impressive about this guy. Let's see... ECL 12? How would he stand up to being slapped in the middle of a web with an acid fog thrown on top of that? An excellent combo any wizard- and indeed, many sorcerers- would have at their disposal by this level, and with quicken spell it's only 1 round.
Or just a black tentacles spell.
Ooh, and one level later and he has to start dealing with forcecages.

Well, as an Aasimar, he actually has 5 resistance to Acid/Fire/Cold. 2d6 damage isn't so big a burden there, and he'd save against the Web. This would allow, for example, the Zen Archery type of Maxie Gall mentioned be able to shoot that wizard with some competence, while resisting most damage from Acid Fog.

As for Forcecages... That'd just have to be dealt with.

(Of course, if he was Drow, he'd have Spell Resistance to help him out and still have CHA benefits, plus DEX benefits. Thus why I mentioned Drow in there as another way to play it.)

Cog
2011-06-05, 12:31 AM
Specifically, that Combat Expertise can come as a bonus feat via this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#passiveWay).

gallagher
2011-06-05, 12:31 AM
ok, i have an idea that will let you have some good fun with this if you want to continue this character with prestige classes.

first is the blackguard. you only need 2 levels of it, 3 if you want to use divine feats. you also get the fun of RPing it into existence. then you take levels in assassin, which if anything improves your sneak attacking and gives you access to more wands, which will be your friend. you can also take ambush feats if you are allowing the completes. you also get uncanny dodge

the sneak attack and poison use would make your FoB's more effective, as monks are missing out on the extra damage. also, since you can sneak attack off of anything that uses an attack roll... well you remember that net that hits on touch AC?

Greenish
2011-06-05, 12:32 AM
Cat's grace and Bear's Endurance aren't even on paladin list, now that I think of it.

[Edit]:
also, since you can sneak attack off of anything that uses an attack roll... well you remember that net that hits on touch AC?Net deals no damage, hence, no SA.

Otherwise rogues would just use touch attacks while fighting. :smalltongue:

Meeky
2011-06-05, 12:33 AM
Sir, you wound me for suggesting I'd post something not RAW legal without specifying it as such. :smalltongue: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#passiveWay)

I only needed Combat Expertise for that damned Shiba Protector, I'd much rather taken Stunning Fist, what with Argent Fist's ability to boost the DC, but alas that had to wait.

Thanks for the link, though it took me a while to realize what that was. (Also thanks to Cog for doing the same, though I only just saw your link, too.)

Hrm. I wonder if taking Stunning Fist as an actual feat later along that line would make up for not having it much earlier...

EDIT: About Cat's/Bear's: Then they wouldn't be usable via wands? Unsure on that, as they're usable by clerics, but -- Again, this is good for learning.

DOUBLE EDIT: Gall, you continue to teach me knew, evil things. Do you mind if I toy with that concept for a villain?

Greenish
2011-06-05, 12:36 AM
Hrm. I wonder if taking Stunning Fist as an actual feat later along that line would make up for not having it much earlier...Well, it'd be handy earlier, but eh, the build doesn't really come together at lower levels.


EDIT: About Cat's/Bear's: Then they wouldn't be usable via wands? Unsure on that, as they're usable by clerics, but -- Again, this is good for learning.What does it matter what a cleric can cast? :smallconfused:

[Edit]:
DOUBLE EDIT: Gall, you continue to teach me knew, evil things. Do you mind if I toy with that concept for a villain?Yours for the taking. It's not particularly impressive, actually.

OracleofWuffing
2011-06-05, 12:37 AM
Still, a +2 defending item along with +1 clothing and wands, +1 ring, +1 amulet -- Work your way up from there and that's more understandable, and less pricey. I may consider noting that, too, as that'd be the more realistic approach to achieving the defensive capabilities aimed for.
It's a bit more complicated than that for your end... If I have this stuff correct (and I reiterate, this is not the thing that I'm best knowledgeable about, so someone please double-check the mathematics here), a single +2 Defending Dagger is twice your level 5 WBL. This means that your AC for the entire thought process is lower than what you're saying.

gallagher
2011-06-05, 12:37 AM
also, for the idea of using assassin i had earlier, alter self is on that spell list.

if you have a fiendish servant from paladin/blackguard levels, you can share spells with it, and have it alter self into a vampire or some other kind of undead.

Meeky
2011-06-05, 12:38 AM
What does it matter what a cleric can cast? :smallconfused:

That's why I'm asking. Note that I normally play arcane casters, rogues, or martial characters of various flavor, so I've never dealt with paladins-using-wands before. I'm not sure if the fact that it can be cast as a divine spell (if not by paladins) would actually affect the paladin being able to use it or not.

Greenish
2011-06-05, 12:39 AM
I'm not sure if the fact that it can be cast as a divine spell (if not by paladins) would actually affect the paladin being able to use it or not.You can only automatically use wands of spells that appear on your own spell list.

[Edit]: And paladins cast from paladin list, not cleric list, nor any vague "all divine spells" list.

Meeky
2011-06-05, 12:44 AM
You can only automatically use wands of spells that appear on your own spell list.

That's simpler than what the gears in my head said, so that's good. (Of course, the character could always take a single level of cleric to remedy that... but that'd be a sort of wasted level.

Better to get a level of an arcane caster or start working on a prestige class that might include those spells in its list.)


It's a bit more complicated than that for your end... If I have this stuff correct (and I reiterate, this is not the thing that I'm best knowledgeable about, so someone please double-check the mathematics here), a single +2 Defending Dagger is twice your level 5 WBL. This means that your AC for the entire thought process is lower than what you're saying.

The defending item could later, of course -- But if it IS twice that, which is highly plausible as it's a +4 total item...

(See, this is why I sometimes regret having seen the sole paladin in a previous game I was a player in finding the Holy Avenger at level 8. It skews my perception on wealth in a typical D&D game, I think.)

More tweaking to do, more thinking to pretend to do. I'm probably gonna duck out of this conversation for the night soon. Thanks, everyone, for all your input and ideas.

Greenish
2011-06-05, 12:46 AM
That's simpler than what the gears in my head said, so that's good. (Of course, the character could always take a single level of cleric to remedy that... but that'd be a sort of wasted level.A level of cleric is never wasted. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0)


Better to get a level of an arcane casterNot at the least. Have a gander at Magic domain's granted power.

OracleofWuffing
2011-06-05, 12:49 AM
The defending item could later, of course -- But if it IS twice that, which is highly plausible as it's a +4 total item...
For that matter, Defending (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#defending) is a +1 bonus, not +2.

OracleofWuffing
2011-06-05, 01:52 AM
Just for the sake of visualizing things, here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=303376)'s what I got out of the level 11 build. It has been a while since I've done 3.5 sheets, so information could be wrong. It's at least easier to look things over this way rather than sorting through a wall of text for the right information, maybe it'll help you a bit, Meeky, for determining places that you're going to improve.


I've assumed Max HP.
No Skill Point allocations.
Only Monk Bonus Feats have been selected.
No Ability Point boosts by level have been applied.
Wand list is shrunk down to just Pally spells for reasons detailed above.
+2 Ring was upgraded to +3, as money was leftover. Probably not the best choice, but it's better than relying on using coins to intercept attacks
Bag of Holding added, because every adventurer could carry more stuff.


That said, in game theory, AC is not a good defense upon which to rely. It is generally seen as more important to buff miss chances, have some means of invisibility, and/or a means of flight.

true_shinken
2011-06-05, 06:14 AM
I just want to point out that even with your combos (that go well beyond WBL), Maxie's AC sucks. At 5th, you had what, AC 19? That's level 1 AC - +4 armor, +3 Dex, +2 shield. And it costs very few money.

Monks do make a somewhat good platform for buffs, this was pointed out already many times. But they don't get that buffs, so they need someone else to provide it for them or a nice DM who handles treasure like candy (like the hypothetical one from your build).

I do like the mental image of a dude using two weapons just for defense, though. Might steal the concept.

Cogitor
2011-06-05, 07:17 AM
1) Paladin doesn't get spellcasting til' level 4.
2) Bear's Endurance and Cat's Grace are not on the Paladin Spell List (it's not sufficient for them to merely be Divine.)
3) If you're going to break WBL a couple of times over, a simpler approach seems to be to drop the Monk levels and get Monk's Belt + Cloak of Resistance to replicate its uses so you can put your levels to use.
4) Average AC at CR 12 seems to be around 24, so your +8/+8/+3 full attack that deals 1d10 + 3 is going to single digits on average.
5) A Con of 10? For a front-line fighter with a low hitdice, that's exceedingly low. I calculate your HP as 56 on average. That's one Maximized or Empowered Orb away from unconsciousness.

true_shinken
2011-06-05, 08:38 AM
1) Paladin doesn't get spellcasting til' level 4.

That has nothing to do with using wands. They just need it on their class spell list.

LyrissMajere
2014-10-27, 02:01 AM
I know this is an old topic, however Monks have MANY advantages IF the person knows how to use them correctly.Take my build for example.

2sorc/10Dragon Disciple/the rest monk.

Only taking the 2 sorc to get the base arcane spells and to qualify for Dragon Disciple. DD allows you to fly, gain a bite and claw attack which can be used in the flurry of blows, a Natural AC on top of wis and dex, Decent saves especially depending on your race. I normally use Irda for the shapeshifting. Plus i just like the Irda lol. Once your monk starts gaining levels it is pretty much unstopable. Granted you can also change it up a little bit thanks to some new feats i ran across which allows you to multiclass from monk and go back to monk with no problem and no penalties no matter what class you use. By doing that you can level the DD and Monk at same time making for a quicker and more potent toon faster.

The last one i made got to level 17 monk 8 DD and 2 sorc NEVER died and well all i can say is the DM i had was STUPID as hell and couldn't outsmart me if his life depended on it. By the time my monk hit lv 5 he took out a GOD! All thanks to a STUPID wish the DM let me have lol. To be able to teleport through time and space at will. That wish AND the pair of handwraps I made that had a Maximized and empowered Vampiric Touch made perm on it. allowed me to teleport inside the huge body of the GOD and just start absorbing it's life from the inside out lol. Like i said a VERY stupid DM lmao.