Wanting to make a Bard...

[Revenance]

Stats: 32 pt. buy. Starting at Level 15.

Starting Wealth: 75000 GP

Sources: Core, PHB2, Spell Compendium, Complete Arc/Adv/War, Races of Stone, MM2 & 3, XPH, Complete Psionic (but I'm not comfortable with psionics yet)

I've read the Bard's Handbook (http://http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0), but given the limited sources I have, I might not be able to effectively play the Bard.

I want to be mostly a buffer (I know that I can be a buffer Wizard, but I guess I like having the skill points, or maybe some obscure reason that I don't even know about) but not necessarily limiting myself to only buffing.

I guess I want help on optimizing this Bard...

Your help is much appreciated and I thank you!

[Zaq]

Well, while most of the easy Inspire Courage optimization can't be found in your source material, you can at least go into Sublime Chord. (Yes, that's less "Bard" and more "Sorcerer who sings," but if you want power and versatility, high-level spells can provide.)

That said, even just a straight Bard's spell list is pretty scary, especially with PHB2 and SpC on the table.

[Hirax]

If you're able to get access to the Book of Exalted Deeds, the words of creation feat would be very much worth your consideration. Ditto for getting access to the book Dragon Magic and the dragonfire inspiration feat. Complete Arcane and Complete Adventurer also have an assortment of special instruments that grant bonuses to your bard abilities.

As for the build itself, how would you like to be a telepathic bard?

bard9/mindbender1/sublimechord2/anything3

Mindbender gets you 100 foot telepathy, which, with your DM's permission, would allow you to buff your allies by 'singing' to them mentally. Great if you're trying to buff someone covertly. Sublime chord will of course get you 9th level spellcasting progression, so your buffs won't be limited to 4th level spells. You'll also get a boatload of 4th level spells, since you'll be getting 4th level spells separately from your bard levels and chord levels. Pick anything with full arcane caster progression for 13th level and beyond, sublime chord isn't worth it after second level.

[Revenance]

Well, while most of the easy Inspire Courage optimization can't be found in your source material, you can at least go into Sublime Chord. (Yes, that's less "Bard" and more "Sorcerer who sings," but if you want power and versatility, high-level spells can provide.)

That said, even just a straight Bard's spell list is pretty scary, especially with PHB2 and SpC on the table.

Yeah I don't mind being a Sublime Chord at all and that was the prestige class I'm thinking of taking. In general, I don't mind prestige classes, as long as it has some Bard stuff along with it. (Now that I think about it, I think I'm being contradictory by stating that I want to be a Bard yet wanting to take any PrC that might lessen my Bardliness as long as it's more effective. Sorry!)

Hmm I'm rather interested on what significant spells Bards have that Sor/Wiz don't have (assuming I don't go Sublime Chord).


If you're able to get access to the Book of Exalted Deeds, the words of creation feat would be very much worth your consideration. Ditto for getting access to the book Dragon Magic and the dragonfire inspiration feat. Complete Arcane and Complete Adventurer also have an assortment of special instruments that grant bonuses to your bard abilities.

As for the build itself, how would you like to be a telepathic bard?

bard9/mindbender1/sublimechord2/anything3

Mindbender gets you 100 foot telepathy, which, with your DM's permission, would allow you to buff your allies by 'singing' to them mentally. Great if you're trying to buff someone covertly. Sublime chord will of course get you 9th level spellcasting progression, so your buffs won't be limited to 4th level spells. You'll also get a boatload of 4th level spells, since you'll be getting 4th level spells separately from your bard levels and chord levels. Pick anything with full arcane caster progression for 13th level and beyond, sublime chord isn't worth it after second level.

Wow... I never thought of using it that way. I thought Mindbender dips were only for Beguilers :smalltongue:. Thanks for the build! I will most likely use this as my default build.



Any suggestions on feats or races?

[Hirax]

If you can get access to Races of the Dragon, spellscales are fun. They get +2 cha, -2 con, and a neato ability called blood quickening that I wouldn't do justice trying to describe, but it does things like get you free feats for the day. edit: off the top of my head one of them gets you the eschew materials feat for free all day.

[Godskook]

Is unearthed arcana a possibility, specifically LA-Buyoff? I ask cause I'm guessing your list is "what's handy", and UA is available via the SRD, and using LA-Buyoff to start as a lvl 14 Aasimar(with 3k to go until lvl 15) would benefit you greatly.

[Elric VIII]

Using CAdv, CAr, and RoS you can grab a level of Virtuoso, then one level of Sublime Chord, then use your remaining Virtuoso levels to advance the Sublime Chord's casting.

Why would you want to do this? Because Sublime Chord only gives you 1 Bardic Music/2 levels, whereas Virtuoso is 1/level. This gives you more music to feed to the excellent feat Metamagic Song from Races of Stone, which lets you use Bardic Music to pay for metamagic.

[dspeyer]

Reach Spell and Chain Spell are handy for buffers. Then use Metamagic Song (and maybe Metamagic School Specialization) to make them affordable.

[Optimator]

Using CAdv, CAr, and RoS you can grab a level of Virtuoso, then one level of Sublime Chord, then use your remaining Virtuoso levels to advance the Sublime Chord's casting.

Why would you want to do this? Because Sublime Chord only gives you 1 Bardic Music/2 levels, whereas Virtuoso is 1/level. This gives you more music to feed to the excellent feat Metamagic Song from Races of Stone, which lets you use Bardic Music to pay for metamagic.


Reach Spell and Chain Spell are handy for buffers. Then use Metamagic Song (and maybe Metamagic School Specialization) to make them affordable.
I heartily agree. These things make for a fun and very strong character.

[Keld Denar]

It's typically more like Bard8/Vituoso2/SublimeChord2/Virtuous+8. That gets you 10th level Virtuoso abilities, which are kinda fun, and the 2nd level Sublime Chord's Song of Arcane Power.

[Revenance]

Is unearthed arcana a possibility, specifically LA-Buyoff? I ask cause I'm guessing your list is "what's handy", and UA is available via the SRD, and using LA-Buyoff to start as a lvl 14 Aasimar(with 3k to go until lvl 15) would benefit you greatly.

I don't think it's a possibility since my DM doesn't use XPs. I will ask him about it though and make him look at the SRD.


Using CAdv, CAr, and RoS you can grab a level of Virtuoso, then one level of Sublime Chord, then use your remaining Virtuoso levels to advance the Sublime Chord's casting.

Why would you want to do this? Because Sublime Chord only gives you 1 Bardic Music/2 levels, whereas Virtuoso is 1/level. This gives you more music to feed to the excellent feat Metamagic Song from Races of Stone, which lets you use Bardic Music to pay for metamagic.

Assuming I would go for Bard 9, would it be better if I go Sublime Chord 2 and the rest Virtuoso? It would still give me the same amount of Bardic Music, but I won't get the revealing melody from Virtuoso. So I guess my question is what's better: 2nd lvl of Sublime Chord or 10th level of Virtuoso?

[Flickerdart]

Races of Stone has some very nice stuff for Gnome Bards, so check that out. If you don't want to be a Sublime Chord, War Chanter from CWar is nice as it gets Combine Song, so you can maintain two songs at once. Seeker of the Song (CArc) has that too. Lyric Thaumaturge (CArc again) gives your Bard casting a nice boost, so it's a valid alternative to "full caster or bust".

[Hirax]

It's typically more like Bard8/Vituoso2/SublimeChord2/Virtuous+8. That gets you 10th level Virtuoso abilities, which are kinda fun, and the 2nd level Sublime Chord's Song of Arcane Power.

I'd opt for bard9/virtuoso1/chord2/virtuoso+8 for that route, virtuoso's level 10 ability isn't as good as inspire greatness. The level 9 virtuoso ability is what gets you the ability to dominate creatures you've fascinated. 2nd level of sublime chord also trumps virtuoso 10 imo. If you're keen on the mindbender idea another possibility is bard9/virtuoso1/chord1/mindbender1/virtuoso+8

[Revenance]

Thanks for the suggestions!

I've opted for Human 7 Bard/1 Virtuoso/+2 Bard/2 Sublime Chord/Virtuoso for the rest (I might integrate Mindbender in there if DM allows the Telepathy thing, but I like Inspire Greatness and Song of Arcane Power). I wanted to be a Gnome but I needed the extra skill points to fulfill the skill requirements.

With access to Sor/Wiz casting, does that mean I could just ignore UMD?

[Keld Denar]

You'll still need UMD for anything in the 1-3 range of wizard spells, plus anything clerical and anything random that your DM might impose. My current RL group uses UMD to trigger some long disabled intercontinental teleporters that NOBODY has the ability to use anymore without UMD. So...it might still be useful.

[Kansaschaser]

You only had a few of the "Complete" books listed. How about Complete Mage or Complete Scoundrel? The Lyric Thaumaturge is from the Complete Mage and makes for some very versatile Bards.

Complete Scoundrel has some nifty spells for Bards and some cool skill tricks.

[p4r4d0x_]

Too bad Lyric Thaumaturge doesn't play nice with sublime, unless your DM is willing to houserule.