Help me with a Barbarian/Bear Warrior/Warshaper build

[raxies94]

Hey guys, I'm playing a Barbarian in my current RL campaign. I was looking for a prestige class and saw bear warrior and frenzied berserker. With the berserker's obvious drawbacks, I decided to go with bear warrior.

From what I understand, bear warrior is worth it to go all the way to level 10 with. So I plan on just going to level 6 or 7 in it. Then I saw the warshaper, and that seems like it would be cool until level 3 or 4. I don't see the level 5 ability really giving me anything, so that's out.

So right now it's: Barbarian7/BearWarrior6-7/Warshaper3-4. But that leaves me 2 to 4 levels free.

So, does the build look okay? Can you think of any other prestige classes that could be awesome with this? Or should I just continue with barbarian?

Any feedback is appreciated.

[grarrrg]

Hey guys, I'm playing a Barbarian in my current RL campaign. I was looking for a prestige class and saw bear warrior and frenzied berserker. With the berserker's obvious drawbacks, I decided to go with bear warrior. (text)

NEEDS MOAR BEAR (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140757)!!

[deuxhero]

You could skip Bear Warrior with a nice DM. UA (The section in the SRD) has both class feature to substitute a ranger's fighting style for limited wildshape (Small and Medium only) and something that allows barbarians to swap some class feature or other for a ranger fighting style (combine the two).

[Greenish]

Bear Warrior 6-9 are pretty empty levels, and the capstone isn't really worth it.

I'd go Barbarian4/Fist of the Forest3/Bear Warrior5/Warshaper4/whatever.

Fist of the Forest is from Complete Champion, and works great with Bear Warrior, though it takes a few feats to qualify, you might want to swap some barbarian levels for fighter.

[Edit]:
You could skip Bear Warrior with a nice DM. UA (The section in the SRD) has both class feature to substitute a ranger's fighting style for limited wildshape (Small and Medium only) and something that allows barbarians to swap some class feature or other for a ranger fighting style (combine the two).I don't see why you'd use barbarian that gives away barbarian's signature ability (pretty much the only real class feature) when you could just be wildshape ranger.

Anyhow, ranger's wildshape isn't half as cool as getting so angry you turn into a large bear.

[deuxhero]

I think the Wildshape Barbarian math gives you two fast movements. Swap one out and you can have pounce instead. Does a wildshape Ranger get pounce+fast movement? No they don't!

OK, fluff wise Bear Warrior is cooler...

[Greenish]

I think the Wildshape Barbarian math gives you two fast movements. Swap one out and you can have pounce instead. Does a wildshape Ranger get pounce+fast movement? No they don't!Yes they do, pounce is pretty common in the better wildshape forms. Say, fleshraker.

[deuxhero]

But do bears get it? (also: Isn't the reason they are common because they have pounce? Aren't there even better options with natural pounce?)

[Greenish]

But do bears get it?Nope, but then the black bear isn't that impressive anyhow, and since you're limited to medium animals that's the best you can do.


(also: Isn't the reason they are common because they have pounce?)Well, they usually have a bunch of natural weapons and rakes to go with it. Big cats and theropod dinosaurs, for example.

[Stallion]

Bear Warrior 6-9 are pretty empty levels, and the capstone isn't really worth it.

I'd go Barbarian4/Fist of the Forest3/Bear Warrior5/Warshaper4/whatever.

Fist of the Forest is from Complete Champion, and works great with Bear Warrior, though it takes a few feats to qualify, you might want to swap some barbarian levels for fighter.


This.

With 5 levels of Frostrager, and 1 level of fighter. I agree with the whole swap out one level of barb for one of fighter. Feats are beautiful. Anyways, Frostrager synergizes pretty well, allowing for some elemental damage, healing via cold damage, an extra unarmed strike, and rend.

Another alternative is 2 levels of Totemist for Girallon Arms and then 4 levels of Psychic Warrior. Gotta love Expansion.

Finally, if this is allowed in your campaign, you could throw 6 levels of a refluffed Runescarred Berserker in. Or even Champion of Gwynharwyf.

[raxies94]

This.

With 5 levels of Frostrager, and 1 level of fighter. I agree with the whole swap out one level of barb for one of fighter. Feats are beautiful. Anyways, Frostrager synergizes pretty well, allowing for some elemental damage, healing via cold damage, an extra unarmed strike, and rend.

Another alternative is 2 levels of Totemist for Girallon Arms and then 4 levels of Psychic Warrior. Gotta love Expansion.

Finally, if this is allowed in your campaign, you could throw 6 levels of a refluffed Runescarred Berserker in. Or even Champion of Gwynharwyf.

Runescarred was actually my first choice, but I'm fairly certain my DM won't go for that.

[Darth Stabber]

It sounds like you might want the old Kungfu bear build, with it's large number of powerful attacks. The following is the build I plan to use next time a GM will allow it, and it works pretty well at all levels.

Barbarian4/fighter1/fist of the forest2/bear warrior5/fist of the forest1/frost rager2/warshaper4/warblade 1

ACFs: lion totem (trade fast movement for pounce)

Feats
Flaw - power attack
Human - Great fortitude
1 - improved bullrush
3 - improved unarmed strike
Fighter1 - leap attack
6 - shocktrooper
9- frozen bezerker
12 - blazing berzerker
15 - extra rage
18 - shape soulmeld (planar ward)

Maneuvers
Iron heart surge
Mountain hammer
Disarming strike (or any other iron heart manuever with no prerequisites)

Stance
Punishing Stance (I am making the conservative assumption that you can only choose a first level stance with your first initiator level, if you GM rules otherwise, feel free to replace it with something better)

Since this class gets no capstone abilities (because it never finishes a class), I added the level of warblade to give it some extra fun options for lvl20, though you can move that lvl to anypoint after lvl10, and push everything else back with little change to the functionality of the build. The shape soulmeld feat may seem out of place, especially since you have no essentia to put into it, but you only need the basic effect of that meld, which hedges out mind control in a manner similar to protection from evil. While normally prot spells are only a stop gap measure, having this as your only soulmeld means that you will never have it unshaped, and thus always have that protection up, and at 18th lvl you party really doesn't want to deal with you when you're dominatated. If you want this ability sooner, I'm going to go ahead and say that the last 3 feats are mutable, and can be rearranged or replaced as you prefer, without any loss to the core functionality of the build.

The basic functionallity is that you can use an unarmed strike in addition to your bear given natural attacks. You can make your full iterative and claw*2 +bite. Frost rager gives you the nice icefists. Fist of the forest gives you a host of really nice abilities including bigger fist damage dice, CON to AC, and an interesting "rage lite" ability. Warshaper has other fun utilities, but strangely it is not strictly neccessary for the build. Warshaper could actually be replaced if you wanted higher OP, but it has enough fun to justify keeping it in the build.

[raxies94]

It sounds like you might want the old Kungfu bear build, with it's large number of powerful attacks. The following is the build I plan to use next time a GM will allow it, and it works pretty well at all levels.

Barbarian4/fighter1/fist of the forest2/bear warrior5/fist of the forest1/frost rager2/warshaper4/warblade 1

ACFs: lion totem (trade fast movement for pounce)

Feats
Flaw - power attack
Human - Great fortitude
1 - improved bullrush
3 - improved unarmed strike
Fighter1 - leap attack
6 - shocktrooper
9- frozen bezerker
12 - blazing berzerker
15 - extra rage
18 - shape soulmeld (planar ward)

Maneuvers
Iron heart surge
Mountain hammer
Disarming strike (or any other iron heart manuever with no prerequisites)

Stance
Punishing Stance (I am making the conservative assumption that you can only choose a first level stance with your first initiator level, if you GM rules otherwise, feel free to replace it with something better)

Since this class gets no capstone abilities (because it never finishes a class), I added the level of warblade to give it some extra fun options for lvl20, though you can move that lvl to anypoint after lvl10, and push everything else back with little change to the functionality of the build. The shape soulmeld feat may seem out of place, especially since you have no essentia to put into it, but you only need the basic effect of that meld, which hedges out mind control in a manner similar to protection from evil. While normally prot spells are only a stop gap measure, having this as your only soulmeld means that you will never have it unshaped, and thus always have that protection up, and at 18th lvl you party really doesn't want to deal with you when you're dominatated. If you want this ability sooner, I'm going to go ahead and say that the last 3 feats are mutable, and can be rearranged or replaced as you prefer, without any loss to the core functionality of the build.

The basic functionallity is that you can use an unarmed strike in addition to your bear given natural attacks. You can make your full iterative and claw*2 +bite. Frost rager gives you the nice icefists. Fist of the forest gives you a host of really nice abilities including bigger fist damage dice, CON to AC, and an interesting "rage lite" ability. Warshaper has other fun utilities, but strangely it is not strictly neccessary for the build. Warshaper could actually be replaced if you wanted higher OP, but it has enough fun to justify keeping it in the build.

Looks pretty neat. Warblade wouldn't fly thought, because my DM doesn't want to use ToB. What book is fist of the forest from?

[Darth Stabber]

Looks pretty neat. Warblade wouldn't fly thought, because my DM doesn't want to use ToB. What book is fist of the forest from?

GMs always hate it when melee has nice things.

Fist of the forest is in complete champion. If tome of battle does not fly you may also want to check on Incarnum. If incarnum is okay you can drop a level of warshaper and the warblade level for 2 levels in totemist (you really don't want just one), because totemist is the master of natural weapons (want to add 4 more natural weapons to your routine?). The build is not particularly dependant on warblade, I only added it to give access to Iron Heart Surge. You could throw in any number of other fun classes, psychic warrior if you want to turn into a bigger bear, 1 more level of fighter for another bonus feat. Barbarian 5 for improved uncanny dodge (kinda yucky, but it's better than fighter3). Cleric for travel devotion and something else. Or another level of frost rager. The build is fairly flexible in that it has 2 levels and three feats to play around with at higher levels, just pickup something combative that allows you to maintain a chaotic alignment and everything is just peachy. I defer to the rest of the playground to help with what you might want to do if you lose the warblade level and possibly the 4th level of warshaper, noting that the last three feats are higly mutable.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Darth Stabber has covered a lot of the basics for barbarians. I'm a fan of more Frozen Bezerker, but I can't actually remember what the last few levels do, if much of anything. Really, though, you could leave those last few levels blank and roll with whatever works or you what spikes your interest at the time.

[Darth Stabber]

Also, bear warriors tend to be pretty good at grappling without even trying. Remember when you are in bear mode you gain the bear's improved grab, which means if you hit with any of you natural weapons (which unarmed strikes count whenever beneficial), you may begin a grapple without provoking attacks of opportunity. And with the size bonuses and increased strength score, you can actually pin Big-T and make him cry uncle at lvl 20.

A note about frostrager, including why I only have two levels and a level by level breakdown.

Frostrager 1 gives you frostrage (+1d8 cold damge on unarmed strikes(assuming you are a large bear), and +4 natural armor) and auto stabilize at negative hp. Good, but not outstanding, and the autostabilize is only good because it's free.

Frostrager 2 gives you an extra attack each round (with the attendant -2 to all attacks in the round). This is the ability you really want from this class, because the build focuses on quantity of attack. I would generally say drop out at this point, unless your going to take it all the way.

Frostrager 3 means you regain hp = to any cold damage you would have taken, but only while raging. If you have an evoker who loves cold damge this ability could be worth it, but honestly since you are already immune to cold (from frozen berzerker), I don't much care for it.

Frostrager 4 gives improved frostrage, it increased your natural armor from frost rage to +6, and increments your fist size and cold damage die size. Not to shabby, but you can get better elsewhere

Frostrager 5 gives rend, which means if you hit with atleast two attacks, you get to deal an additional 3d8+1.5str +1d6 cold (assuming you are also a large bear). It is a nice capstone, but I would rather pursue more warshaper, this is still really good though.

If you can't take warblade, then you could do a lot worse than dropping two levels from warshaper and adding the last three of this class. But only do it if you are going to take the last three of this class, because 3rd & 4th level of this class kinda suck.


Bear warrior notes

Bear warrior is printed with 10 levels, but I assure you that is either a mistake or trickery. The extra rage given at lvl 7 is not worth spending 2 levels on, and the difference between brown bear form, and direbear form is a measly 4 strength. Once you get brown bear form, you are large and you have enough strength to get the job done (and if you don't the extra 4 is not likely to make the difference). The class has a lot of dead levels for a prestige class, and there is no reason to continue when there are PRCs with actual class features better than that. Even bear warrior 5 has 2 dead levels (3 if you already have scent, like this build got from fist of the forest2)


Fist of the Forest notes:

For a 3 level PRC this jam packed full of goodies. What other PRC is designed for both monk and barbarian.

FotF1 - you get to add CON to your AC when you aren't wearing armor (awesome), your fists now deal d8s, you gain fast movement and since you were smart and traded it for pounce you are now as fast as dumb barbarians, and you gain feral trance which is like rage except it gives you +4 dex, +2 damage to unarmed strikes, and a bite attack when ever you make a full attack. The feral trance lasts for Con+3 rounds, is usable 1/day, and stacks with rage. The cost of this is that you have to sleep outside, hunt for your own food (you have survival and the dc is only 10 to feed yourself), and you get to break these vows 3 times per month at no consequence.

FotF2 gives you improved uncanny dodge (unless you traded the uncanny dodge from your barbarian levels for an acf, in which case you get normal uncanny dodge), and your unarmed strikes count as magical.

Finally FotF3 gives you scent, another feral trance per day, and increments your unarmed damage die size. I generally hold off on this level, since I want into bear warrior as soon as possible, and as the prerequisites fall, this prestige class's last level interferes with bear warriors first, and since the build is called kungfu bear, you can guess who wins.

All and all this PRC gives you a lot of nice benefits, and believes in immediate gratification, it's not the strongest, but since it is so short it leaves plenty of room for things that are.


Note on Warshaper

Warshaper is a funny little PRC that gives anyone with the ability to changeshape some weird super powers. Remember though that these abilities only work while you are shape shifted (ie while you are a bear)

Ws1 - you gain immunity to stunning and crits, which also works out to immunity to sneak attack, sudden strike, and I think skirmish, so that is pretty solid, you also can spend a move action to either move an existing natural weapon up a size category, or add a new one, and the correct answer is add a new one. Adding horns for a gore attack is a good choice, though if you wanted to be weird you could add a tentacle (I'm not saying anymore, since I don't want my post scrubbed). Downside you don't gain any BAB this level.

WS2 gives you +4str and +4con. Remember when I told you you didn't need the direbear form from bear warrior? This is why.

WS3 gives you an additional 5' of reach, which is really nice, I could see bringing in copmbat reflexes, maybe even improved trip. With this your brown bear form can hit targets 15' away, don't think about it too hard.

WS4 gives you fasthealing 1, and I just realized that, like all the other abilities in this class, it only works in bear form, useless. Stop at 3 or 2.

WS5 loses you another BAB, and the ability is useless to you (unless you really want to spend a standard action to switch to black bear form, you don't)

So yes, the abilities of 1-3 are good, drop out any time before 4.

I learned something as iwas writing this post, and I will post and I will edit my build suggestion accordingly

Barbarian4/Fighter1/FotF2/Bear Warrior5/FotF1/Frostrager2/warshaper2/totemist2/warblade1.

At lvl 20, you are making something like 10 attacks per round (4 for normal iterative of unarmed strikes, 1 extra unarmed strike from frost rager, 1 bite and two claws from being in bear form, 1 gore attack from warshaper, and atleast 1 from your totem chakra on totemist) with +36 damage each from PA+shocktrooper+leap attack alone (assuming you are charging), not to mention str and damage dice (which is something to the tune of 2d6 minimum thanks to all the boosters). If you charge and land half you attacks, what ever yhou hit is mostlikely dead. Warning if you use shock trooper remember to have some sort of miss chance other than AC, since you don't wear any (FotF), and you just subtracted your own BAB from your AC, luckily since you have a billion constitution while raging you should be alright.

Skills needed
Jump, Survival, Handle animal, intimidate.

A human with 8 int can keep those maxed throughout his progression no problem, anything extra should probably go into listen.

[Kaeso]

It sounds like you might want the old Kungfu bear build, with it's large number of powerful attacks. The following is the build I plan to use next time a GM will allow it, and it works pretty well at all levels.

Barbarian4/fighter1/fist of the forest2/bear warrior5/fist of the forest1/frost rager2/warshaper4/warblade 1

ACFs: lion totem (trade fast movement for pounce)

Feats
Flaw - power attack
Human - Great fortitude
1 - improved bullrush
3 - improved unarmed strike
Fighter1 - leap attack
6 - shocktrooper
9- frozen bezerker
12 - blazing berzerker
15 - extra rage
18 - shape soulmeld (planar ward)

Maneuvers
Iron heart surge
Mountain hammer
Disarming strike (or any other iron heart manuever with no prerequisites)

Stance
Punishing Stance (I am making the conservative assumption that you can only choose a first level stance with your first initiator level, if you GM rules otherwise, feel free to replace it with something better)

Since this class gets no capstone abilities (because it never finishes a class), I added the level of warblade to give it some extra fun options for lvl20, though you can move that lvl to anypoint after lvl10, and push everything else back with little change to the functionality of the build. The shape soulmeld feat may seem out of place, especially since you have no essentia to put into it, but you only need the basic effect of that meld, which hedges out mind control in a manner similar to protection from evil. While normally prot spells are only a stop gap measure, having this as your only soulmeld means that you will never have it unshaped, and thus always have that protection up, and at 18th lvl you party really doesn't want to deal with you when you're dominatated. If you want this ability sooner, I'm going to go ahead and say that the last 3 feats are mutable, and can be rearranged or replaced as you prefer, without any loss to the core functionality of the build.

The basic functionallity is that you can use an unarmed strike in addition to your bear given natural attacks. You can make your full iterative and claw*2 +bite. Frost rager gives you the nice icefists. Fist of the forest gives you a host of really nice abilities including bigger fist damage dice, CON to AC, and an interesting "rage lite" ability. Warshaper has other fun utilities, but strangely it is not strictly neccessary for the build. Warshaper could actually be replaced if you wanted higher OP, but it has enough fun to justify keeping it in the build.

This begs the question: How do unarmed attacks and natural attacks stack, if they even stack at all?

[Greenish]

WS3 gives you an additional 5' of reach, which is really nice, I could see bringing in copmbat reflexes, maybe even improved trip. With this your brown bear form can hit targets 15' away, don't think about it too hard.Brown bear has a reach of 5', Morphic Reach adds 5', that doesn't add up to 15'.

Also, I seem to recall that Frostrager has it's own unarmed strike advancement which as written messes up with FotF's one.

[Edit]:
This begs the question: How do unarmed attacks and natural attacks stack, if they even stack at all?"Begging the question" is the name of a logical fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question), you mean "raises the question". :smallamused:

And you first take your unarmed strikes with iteratives, then slap your natural attacks as secondary natural attacks in the end.

[Darth Stabber]

This begs the question: How do unarmed attacks and natural attacks stack, if they even stack at all?

RAW they stack, fully. Keep in mind though that 10 is rather conservative. With totemist2 now in the build? I could get it to 13 if I wanted (more yet if I want to spend a couple feats on it). Given the rules for natural weapon all of the attacks (except for the unarmed strikes) would get a -5, and all attacks (including the unarmed strikes) would get a -2 thanks to frostrager2's one two punch. The penalties actually don't matter that much as your Strength score is through the roof, and with shocktrooper the PA penalty comes out of AC, not attack roll. If it was an issue, multiattack would reduce the penalties to the natural weapons to -2, and one two punch is optional, eliminating an additional -2. If 3.0 material is allowed an amulet of natural weapons is a good (if expensive) way of getting all those tasty magic weapon properties onto you array. And if you do that, Fist of the Forest2 will give you ghost touch (well 50% full damage, 50% half damage).

[Hiro Protagonest]

What weapons are you gonna use? Are you just gonna kill them with your bear hands?

Pun-ish me if you will, I can bear it.

[Darth Stabber]

Brown bear has a reach of 5', Morphic Reach adds 5', that doesn't add up to 15'.

Also, I seem to recall that Frostrager has it's own unarmed strike advancement which as written messes up with FotF's one.

[Edit]: "Begging the question" is the name of a logical fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question), you mean "raises the question". :smallamused:

And you first take your unarmed strikes with iteratives, then slap your natural attacks as secondary natural attacks in the end.

Frostrager increments your fists damage die (I think), if not I imagine that you could probably ignore that particular bonus, assuming your gm isn't a jerk (a bold assumption sometimes). And you are right abou morphic reach, I could have sworn brown bear had more reach, but alas it does not.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Frostrager increments your fists damage die (I think), if not I imagine that you could probably ignore that particular bonus, assuming your gm isn't a jerk (a bold assumption sometimes). And you are right abou morphic reach, I could have sworn brown bear had more reach, but alas it does not.

I actually had to find my Frostburn book to check this, but the increased unarmed strikes come about only when raging, as it is apart of his frostrage ability. Which is odd, because that means, by RAW, even if your damage dice are bigger than that normally, you now get stuck with whatever frostrage gives you.

A sensible houserule would be to count frostrage and its improvement each as a +1 advancement on unarmed strike dice in either the same way as FotF or by the monk table.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What weapons are you gonna use? Are you just gonna kill them with your bear hands?

Pun-ish me if you will, I can bear it.

Nah, grab a mug. Not only will it help you in getting drunk, but then you can be a dreaded bear-'n-stein bear.

[Keld Denar]

How do unarmed attacks and natural attacks stack, if they even stack at all?
Here's a mini-guide for natural attacks. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0) It was co-authored by yours truely. It walks you through the steps pretty simply.


Frostrager increments your fists damage die (I think), if not I imagine that you could probably ignore that particular bonus, assuming your gm isn't a jerk (a bold assumption sometimes). And you are right abou morphic reach, I could have sworn brown bear had more reach, but alas it does not.
Frostrager does NOT incriment your fist die. In fact, it doesn't stack with Fist of the Forest at all, as FotF only incriments your die size if you have monk levels. Otherwise, both "set" your die size to a fixed size, and FotF is bigger at 1d10. I did a lot of looking into this a while back.

Another thing you can do is tap into Person Man's Frozen Dwarf Hulk Smash!! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50588) build, stacking FotF with Deepwarden before going into Bear Warrior. Getting 2x +Con to AC is good...getting it with your massive bear Con score is really good. Your AC actually goes UP while raging, which is all kinds of fun. Requires that you be a Dwarf, or burn up a bunch of levels on Stonebessed, but really, since Dwarf gives a +2 Con already, its a pretty awesome race for a build based around pumping your Con.

[raxies94]

Here's a mini-guide for natural attacks. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0) It was co-authored by yours truely. It walks you through the steps pretty simply.


Frostrager does NOT incriment your fist die. In fact, it doesn't stack with Fist of the Forest at all, as FotF only incriments your die size if you have monk levels. Otherwise, both "set" your die size to a fixed size, and FotF is bigger at 1d10. I did a lot of looking into this a while back.

Another thing you can do is tap into Person Man's Frozen Dwarf Hulk Smash!! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50588) build, stacking FotF with Deepwarden before going into Bear Warrior. Getting 2x +Con to AC is good...getting it with your massive bear Con score is really good. Your AC actually goes UP while raging, which is all kinds of fun. Requires that you be a Dwarf, or burn up a bunch of levels on Stonebessed, but really, since Dwarf gives a +2 Con already, its a pretty awesome race for a build based around pumping your Con.

That would be a bit more doable if I weren't already human...I wanted to have cleave at level 1 :smallcool:

[Popertop]

^this guy has it right

[Thrice Dead Cat]

*snip*

See, when it comes to pumping CON, if you go down that dark route, you may as well be an arctic dragonborn stonblessed (dwarf) Mongrelfolk. Yeah, it eats up three levels, but barbarian 1 with extra rage is still solid rather than barbarian 4. Take dragonborn before Stoneblessed 3 just so you don't have to worry about it mucking up the capstone. Your con score should be at a +10 bonus to the stat itself, breaking it down to +2 arctic +2 dragonborn +2 stoneblessed +4 mongrelfolk. I may be wrong on the last bit, but still, worst case, +8 CON, less if the templates are out.

Still get double bear con to AC, but also you only need to double pretend to be a dwarf!

[Keld Denar]

Ah, you didn't mention that in the OP...

Do note that if you go with Bear Warrior, you aren't really gonna be able to do the whole 2-handed PA thing anymore. You get something a little different. You are gonna want to go with Unarmed Strikes, since they are one of the only weapons you can use that you can PA with that also don't require a hand to wield. Even if you get a pair of Gloves of Man from Savage Species (and put them on while in bear form?), holding a greatsword in both hands will keep you from being able to make claw attacks. Check some math out quick...

Just from Power Attack:
Assuming a +11 BAB, a 2hander pretty much gets 4 attacks (3 iterative, 1 haste)
From +11 BAB, an UASer with natural weapons gets 5 UASs and 2 claws and a bite (3 iterative, +1 One-Two Punch (Frostrager), +1 Haste, +2 Claws, +1 Bite = 8).

Thus, both get the same return on PA. If the 2 hander PAs for 2, he gets +4 damage per attack or +16 damage per round. If the natural striker PAs for 2, he gets +2 damage across 8 attacks, or +16 damage per round. At that point, they even out. If you can get any more natural attacks (its not THAT hard), you get get even more return on your PA. Thats the joy of natural weapons...even if they are secondary natural weapons, they still get 1:1 PA. Offhand weapons don't get that bonus without spending even more crappy feats on it.

The only problem you really have with spreading out your damage across a large number of attacks is dealing with DR. Thats kinda the price you pay which makes it slightly less optimal than 2handed weapons, but its generally not bad enough to make it a completely bad idea.

[raxies94]

Ah, you didn't mention that in the OP...

Do note that if you go with Bear Warrior, you aren't really gonna be able to do the whole 2-handed PA thing anymore. You get something a little different. You are gonna want to go with Unarmed Strikes, since they are one of the only weapons you can use that you can PA with that also don't require a hand to wield. Even if you get a pair of Gloves of Man from Savage Species (and put them on while in bear form?), holding a greatsword in both hands will keep you from being able to make claw attacks. Check some math out quick...

Just from Power Attack:
Assuming a +11 BAB, a 2hander pretty much gets 4 attacks (3 iterative, 1 haste)
From +11 BAB, an UASer with natural weapons gets 5 UASs and 2 claws and a bite (3 iterative, +1 One-Two Punch (Frostrager), +1 Haste, +2 Claws, +1 Bite = 8).

Thus, both get the same return on PA. If the 2 hander PAs for 2, he gets +4 damage per attack or +16 damage per round. If the natural striker PAs for 2, he gets +2 damage across 8 attacks, or +16 damage per round. At that point, they even out. If you can get any more natural attacks (its not THAT hard), you get get even more return on your PA. Thats the joy of natural weapons...even if they are secondary natural weapons, they still get 1:1 PA. Offhand weapons don't get that bonus without spending even more crappy feats on it.

The only problem you really have with spreading out your damage across a large number of attacks is dealing with DR. Thats kinda the price you pay which makes it slightly less optimal than 2handed weapons, but its generally not bad enough to make it a completely bad idea.

Yeah, I'm seeing this now...Fist of the Forest looks pretty nice, but with my current feat selections, I'll have to wait until level 6 to qualify for it.

[Hamburgers]

Frenzied BEARserkers get a lot of flak for the potential they have to be a total party kill, mauling everyone they know after the enemies are dead.

This is because people don't make simple prep.

A wilding clasped Crystal Mask of Mindarmor 10k + 4k(MIC?) is a + 4 to will (INSIGHT)
Add a cloak of resistance, +9 will, on top of an assumedly bad will of like 3 or something, still well over half chance each round of making the save. Aside from that, nearly anybody can UMD a wand of grease between them and you and run for the hills. Failing that, Fly, people >.>. berserking raging bears who are also in fist of the forest trances, FOR. THE. WIN.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Frenzied BEARserkers get a lot of flak for the potential they have to be a total party kill, mauling everyone they know after the enemies are dead.

This is because people don't make simple prep.

A wilding clasped Crystal Mask of Mindarmor 10k + 4k(MIC?) is a + 4 to will (INSIGHT)
Add a cloak of resistance, +9 will, on top of an assumedly bad will of like 3 or something, still well over half chance each round of making the save. Aside from that, nearly anybody can UMD a wand of grease between them and you and run for the hills. Failing that, Fly, people >.>. berserking raging bears who are also in fist of the forest trances, FOR. THE. WIN.

There's a reason they get a lot of flack for being a walking TPK.

If you can't hit flying targets, then you will be completely negated every time your opponents are out of reach. And your allies will need to be able to *MAKE* an action before you finish eating their faces off. Since you can one-hit-kill any of your comrades, this is doubtful at best.

Remember, you auto-fail on a natural 1. Frenzied Berzerker is bad, mmmkay?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

There's a reason they get a lot of flack for being a walking TPK.

If you can't hit flying targets, then you will be completely negated every time your opponents are out of reach. And your allies will need to be able to *MAKE* an action before you finish eating their faces off. Since you can one-hit-kill any of your comrades, this is doubtful at best.

Remember, you auto-fail on a natural 1. Frenzied Berzerker is bad, mmmkay?

As long as you have a swift action, just diamond it away (assuming you aren't already frenzy-ing).

[Darth Stabber]

Ah, you didn't mention that in the OP...

Do note that if you go with Bear Warrior, you aren't really gonna be able to do the whole 2-handed PA thing anymore. You get something a little different. You are gonna want to go with Unarmed Strikes, since they are one of the only weapons you can use that you can PA with that also don't require a hand to wield. Even if you get a pair of Gloves of Man from Savage Species (and put them on while in bear form?), holding a greatsword in both hands will keep you from being able to make claw attacks. Check some math out quick...

Just from Power Attack:
Assuming a +11 BAB, a 2hander pretty much gets 4 attacks (3 iterative, 1 haste)
From +11 BAB, an UASer with natural weapons gets 5 UASs and 2 claws and a bite (3 iterative, +1 One-Two Punch (Frostrager), +1 Haste, +2 Claws, +1 Bite = 8).

Thus, both get the same return on PA. If the 2 hander PAs for 2, he gets +4 damage per attack or +16 damage per round. If the natural striker PAs for 2, he gets +2 damage across 8 attacks, or +16 damage per round. At that point, they even out. If you can get any more natural attacks (its not THAT hard), you get get even more return on your PA. Thats the joy of natural weapons...even if they are secondary natural weapons, they still get 1:1 PA. Offhand weapons don't get that bonus without spending even more crappy feats on it.

The only problem you really have with spreading out your damage across a large number of attacks is dealing with DR. Thats kinda the price you pay which makes it slightly less optimal than 2handed weapons, but its generally not bad enough to make it a completely bad idea.

Your point is valid up until leap attack is added into the equation. With leap attack the PA ration for UAS and natural weapons jumps from 1:1 to 2:1, while the 2hander goes from 2:1 to 3:1, meaning the 16 bonus damage from your previous equation jumps to 32, where as mr 2hander only increases to 24. If you happen to be going into frenzied berzerker, you get the extra PA multiplier to bring it to parity. That being said, FB is a very risky PRC, that requires your party to take steps to deal with you (which aren't foolproof), and I generally avoid it, if for no other reason than I generally like the people I game with. With warshaper 1 or totemist, the extra attacks are really easy to get (girallon arms ftw), totemist even more so as you gain some level of functionality without raging. With girallon arms, +15 or less BAB, haste, onetwo punch and the bite attack from feral trance you have 10 attacks, and you are not even a bear.

The more I think about it the more I realize that Totemist 2 is great for the big bear. Thr totem chakra turns off no magic items, and gives access to a wide range of good effects changeable every day, including most importantly more attacks per round (though flyspeed and trip are also good choices). Though there is nothing worth investing in the class from lvls 3-5, so only two lvls need to be dipped, but they are a strong two lvls, most PRCs don't give in two levels what this base class does. Plus it's the only other illiterate base class, which is fun to think about.

[Darth Stabber]

Yeah, I'm seeing this now...Fist of the Forest looks pretty nice, but with my current feat selections, I'll have to wait until level 6 to qualify for it.

Conveniently, that is really the proper time to take it (provided you already have leap attack and can affor to spend the 6th lvl feat on shocktrooper, because both of those are pretty critical (shocktrooper to let you take the PA penalty from AC instead of to-hit, and leap attack to double your PA bonus), if you have to cut one, probably leap attack, since shocktrooper is way too tasty (though it requires improved bullrush, which is fun, but kinda sucks). Combat brute is brought up fairly often, but it is fairly low on the list of priorities.

[raxies94]

Well, Fist of the Forest and Frostrager both look really good. Trouble is, to qualify for both of them I'll have to burn 3 feats...

So right now what I'm seeing is Barbarian2/Fighter1/Barbarian1/Fist of the Forest3/BearWarrior5/Frostrager5/Warshaper3

Seems like it's going to be rather feat heavy though...I'll definitely have to take extra rage, and I was hoping to be able to take multiattack.

[Keld Denar]

If you really need to, you can cut out 4 levels of Bear Warrior. Black Bear form is still decent, if you REALLY need to do something special with those 4 levels.

Otherwise, go Barbarian2/Fighter2/FotF3/... Barbarian3 doesn't really yield much more than Barb2 does, and Fighter2 gets you an extra feat for qualifying. As long as you put your Fighter bonus feats in your Fighter bonus feat slots, you should be fine.

[raxies94]

If you really need to, you can cut out 4 levels of Bear Warrior. Black Bear form is still decent, if you REALLY need to do something special with those 4 levels.

Otherwise, go Barbarian2/Fighter2/FotF3/... Barbarian3 doesn't really yield much more than Barb2 does, and Fighter2 gets you an extra feat for qualifying. As long as you put your Fighter bonus feats in your Fighter bonus feat slots, you should be fine.

Well, I'm actually not sure if I see anything feat wise that fighter 2 can give me...

[Keld Denar]

Improved Unarmed Strike is a prereqs for FotF and Power Attack is just plain useful. If those are both your fighter bonus feats, that leaves your general feats open for Frozen Berzerker, Great Fortitude, Extra Rage, Multiattack, etc.

EDIT: See if you can buy Great Fortitude from the Otyuth Hole magical location (Complete Scoundrel). That saves you from taking a crappy feat but meets your prereqs.

[Darth Stabber]

Well, Fist of the Forest and Frostrager both look really good. Trouble is, to qualify for both of them I'll have to burn 3 feats...

So right now what I'm seeing is Barbarian2/Fighter1/Barbarian1/Fist of the Forest3/BearWarrior5/Frostrager5/Warshaper3

Seems like it's going to be rather feat heavy though...I'll definitely have to take extra rage, and I was hoping to be able to take multiattack.

Actually this build is fairly feat requirement with only 4 feats needed for PRC qualification, and one stupid feat needed for a good feat.
Power attack - you'd have it anyway
Improved unarmed strike - even were it not a required feat, the build depends on it.
Great fortitude - okay this is crap.
Frozen berzerker - stylish, but certainly skippable if you don't need it.
Improved bullrush - also stylish, but stupid, you only have it because it is a prerequisite for Shocktrooper, and you do want shocktrooper.

If you want to see a mess of stupid requirements, look at frenzied berzerker.

[raxies94]

Well, the problem is that I've already chosen Power Attack and Cleave, so the second level of fighter doesn't really do anything for me. Great fortitude is not a fighter bonus feat, so yeah...

It's not looking good for shock trooper, no matter how much I want it. Seems like I won't be able to get many free feats until upper levels.

[comicshorse]

There's a reason they get a lot of flack for being a walking TPK.

If you can't hit flying targets, then you will be completely negated every time your opponents are out of reach. And your allies will need to be able to *MAKE* an action before you finish eating their faces off. Since you can one-hit-kill any of your comrades, this is doubtful at best.

Remember, you auto-fail on a natural 1. Frenzied Berzerker is bad, mmmkay?

Take the Steadfast Determination feat. You use your Con not your Wisdom for Will saves (which will be pumped through the roof) and you don't auto-fail on a 1

[Keld Denar]

You need Imp UAS for FotF, and Imp UAS is a fighter bonus feat...so that right there works.


Take the Steadfast Determination feat. You use your Con not your Wisdom for Will saves (which will be pumped through the roof) and you don't auto-fail on a 1

The "not fail on a 1" part is only for Fort saves...will saves are still autofail on 1.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Take the Steadfast Determination feat. You use your Con not your Wisdom for Will saves (which will be pumped through the roof) and you don't auto-fail on a 1

To be specific, Steadfast Determination lets you not auto-fail on fortitude saves.

[raxies94]

You need Imp UAS for FotF, and Imp UAS is a fighter bonus feat...so that right there works.





That's why I'll take a level of fighter at all. But a second level of fighter doesn't seem like it will help much.

[Keld Denar]

PHBII retaining rules. Retrain Cleave to Extra Rage, then take Cleave again when you get your 2nd Fighter level. Or just ask your DM if you can rearrange you feats around slightly. It'll still be the same character, just arranged in a more efficient way.

Also, any way you can talk to your DM about visiting an Otyuth Hole to pick up Great Fortitude? That'll make you smell funny, but at least you won't have to spend a feat on it. Nobody'll remark about your funny smell anyway, since you'll be able to rip them apart with your bear arms!

[Thrice Dead Cat]

PHBII retaining rules. Retrain Cleave to Extra Rage, then take Cleave again when you get your 2nd Fighter level. Or just ask your DM if you can rearrange you feats around slightly. It'll still be the same character, just arranged in a more efficient way.

Also, any way you can talk to your DM about visiting an Otyuth Hole to pick up Great Fortitude? That'll make you smell funny, but at least you won't have to spend a feat on it. Nobody'll remark about your funny smell anyway, since you'll be able to rip them apart with your bear arms!

Guess he finally answered the age old question about the bear pooping in the woods!:smallamused:

[raxies94]

PHBII retaining rules. Retrain Cleave to Extra Rage, then take Cleave again when you get your 2nd Fighter level. Or just ask your DM if you can rearrange you feats around slightly. It'll still be the same character, just arranged in a more efficient way.

Also, any way you can talk to your DM about visiting an Otyuth Hole to pick up Great Fortitude? That'll make you smell funny, but at least you won't have to spend a feat on it. Nobody'll remark about your funny smell anyway, since you'll be able to rip them apart with your bear arms!

Retraining eh? I'll look into that. Also, what books are extra rage and Otyuth Hole in?

[Darth Stabber]

Also, any way you can talk to your DM about visiting an Otyuth Hole to pick up Great Fortitude? That'll make you smell funny, but at least you won't have to spend a feat on it. Nobody'll remark about your funny smell anyway, since you'll be able to rip them apart with your bear arms!

Also no one will think it odd, given you sleep outside and eat only what you can hunt.

And extra rage is in complete warrior.

[Keld Denar]

Retraining eh? I'll look into that. Also, what books are extra rage and Otyuth Hole in?

Otyuth Hole is in Complete Scoundrel, and Extra Rage was in...Complete Warrior, IIRC. Gives +2 Rages/day.

[Dr.Epic]

Go frenzied berserker next. Then you can be the ultimate bear of destruction. I've done it. It was fun.

[raxies94]

I'm not really seeing how Otyuth Hole can substitute for Great Fort. That's not one of the special abilities it can give, going by the book.

[Darth Stabber]

Go frenzied berserker next. Then you can be the ultimate bear of destruction. I've done it. It was fun.

Frenzy Bear is a rough build, due to the rediculous requirements of FB (improved sunder and destructive rage, both useless, infact using them is actively harmful since it screws you out of loot). The only useless feat on kungfu bear is great fortitude, which can be bought with money. and improved bullrush, but that is pretty much needed on FB builds too (for shock trooper).

Besides frenzied berzerkers tent to like having hands, and thereby 2h greatsword for x4 PA multiplier on a charge.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Frenzy Bear is a rough build, due to the rediculous requirements of FB (improved sunder and destructive rage, both useless, infact using them is actively harmful since it screws you out of loot). The only useless feat on kungfu bear is great fortitude, which can be bought with money. and improved bullrush, but that is pretty much needed on FB builds too (for shock trooper).

Besides frenzied berzerkers tent to like having hands, and thereby 2h greatsword for x4 PA multiplier on a charge.

Wait... are you suggesting I blow my frenzy to go bear over rage, thereby preventing me from truly murdering my allies? Clever..., but a waste of resources.:smalltongue:

EDIT: Ah, I can't remember my password, but a found an old piece of work of mine that tried to maximize on types of rage via the silliness of changelings and their racial emulation racial feat: The ever unoriginal Mr. Angry (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3237.0).

[Darth Stabber]

Would a Rage spell trigger the bear transformation?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Would a Rage spell trigger the bear transformation?

Possibly. The spell does say it burns up usages of rage per day to those who have it, so I would go "yes." That said, that only extends the function of bearness out to the point where, if there is a fight you pop the spell to rage at the end of the work day instead.

[Keld Denar]

I'm not really seeing how Otyuth Hole can substitute for Great Fort. That's not one of the special abilities it can give, going by the book.

Well crap, looks like it only gives Iron Will. I thought you had your choice of that or Great Fort. Further review indicates that I'm wrong. My bad.

[raxies94]

Well crap, looks like it only gives Iron Will. I thought you had your choice of that or Great Fort. Further review indicates that I'm wrong. My bad.

Well poop. Looks like I'll have to burn a general feat on great fortitude after all.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

As long as you have a swift action, just diamond it away (assuming you aren't already frenzy-ing).

The problem is when you are already frenzying, because it requires a will save to stop it. And you can't use Concentration while in a frenzy.

[Darth Stabber]

Possibly. The spell does say it burns up usages of rage per day to those who have it, so I would go "yes." That said, that only extends the function of bearness out to the point where, if there is a fight you pop the spell to rage at the end of the work day instead.

Get me a sorcerer and a still, I have plans!!!

[cmakonline]

I would skip the Bear warrior completely....

I personally don't think its that great of a class. okay i know being a bear would be cool, but i just don't think it gives that much per level. Maxed out you will get 3x a day +20 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con, scent and 1 more rage.

If you do go for the Fist of the Forest (complete champion pg 80), then you get scent (so that level is completely useless from Bear Warrior). Fist of the Forest 3 will give you an attack 1d10 (unarmed!) and that scent if you really want it. It is heavy cost wise (for the PrC), but well worth it! I saw other people suggest this PrC as well.

If you want that Warshaper go for it, but I would only go a 2 level dip (gets you the Str and Con bonus). The 3rd level isn't a big deal if you ask me and 4th gives you a little healing....but I don't think that is worth it.

I think a much PrC than Bear Warrior is Primeval (Frostburn pg 65). If you go all 10 levels you will get Primeval form 4/day (1 more than Bear). Your Int and Cha will decrease by 3, but you will gain 3 in Str, Dex, Wis and Con. On top of that you can transform into a number of different creatures (click here for Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869026/The_Primeval_Handbook)) depending if you want more Str, Con, AC or to fly or w/e. Much better than Bear ever will.

Build I would do...Barbarian 8/Fist 2/Warshaper 2/Primeval 8.

I know this is feat heavy...that is the biggest issue (Fist is 3 feats and so is Primeval).
Feat List:
Human: 1st level Power Attack and Improved Unarmed Strike
Flaw: Great Fortitude
3rd Level Choice
5th Level (ACL from Sandstorm giving you an bonus feat instead of improved uncanny dodge) pick either Endurance or Self-Sufficient.
6th level are your choices (leaving you 6th, 9th, 15th and 18th)


Without the choices you have gotten all of the feat for Fist of the Forest (all in level 1). You just need Endurance, Self-Sufficient and Toughness (if DM will allow Improved Toughness to replace Toughness for Primeval go for that instead). Those can go 3, 6 or 9. You will have 1 feat open (since endurance or self-sufficient will be filled via 5th level). Rest of feats I would go Combat Reflexes (Feat) + Robilar’s Gambit (Feat) + Stand Still (Feat) for the last 3 feats - they will make you attack pretty much anything that moves (love this combo - if you add 1 level of fighter than you can add Mage Slayer feat to this combo)

At the end you will attack anything moving! On top of that you will have improved uncanny dodge (from Fist of Forest) if going Dire Lion +18 Str, +6 Dex, +10 Con, +8 Natural Armor (and you are a large sized). Don't for get that +3 to you Str, Dex and Con to your base character (making it better than the Dire Bear) and the +4 Str and Con from Warshaper. This totals +25 Str, +9 Dex, +17 Con +8 Natural Armor. Base speed is +30 (10 from Bar, 10 from 10 and 10 from Primeval). On top of this get your Con to you AC (if unarmored), 1d8 unarmed damage, Rage 3 times a day.

Other ideas:
Spell Sense (Complete Mage, p 35) to replace trapsense and gain AC bonus vs spells.
Lion Totem (Complete Champion, p 46) (Gain Pounce ability) to replace fast movement
Trapkiller (Dungeonscape , p 8): Lose trapsense, gain trapfinding. Use survival to find traps, attack rolls to disable.
Streetfighter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)(replaces Damage reduction).

[Dragonsoul]

:smallconfused: But you turn into a bear......you seem to be missing a important facet of this.....

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Primeval is nice, but, really, Bear Warrior is not the bulk of the build. At most, you'll want 5 levels of bear warrior. You could get by with just the 1 level dip, though. The real benefit is the fact that between Bear Warrior, Warshaper, Fist of the Forest, and Frostrager, you really aren't hurting for feats. Primeval's tax is just way too much for someone gunning for so many various things.

[cmakonline]

Might have a high tax, but well worth it. I find it much stronger than Frostrager and Bear Warrior. 1 level dip into Bear Warrior would give 1 more Primeval shape too :) Also Primeval doesn't require you to almost die in the cold...

[Dr.Epic]

You need to go to level 10 with Bear Warrior or the consequences will be dire...or rather won't be dire...because no DIRE BEAR!!!

[Darth Stabber]

You need to go to level 10 with Bear Warrior or the consequences will be dire...or rather won't be dire...because no DIRE BEAR!!!

Lame pun, and lame feature, it only nets you a very small addition to str, you can definitely do better things with 5 lvls. The reason you want 5 lvls of BW is because brown bear's stats are a more marked improvement, and brown bear is large. Also bear warrior makes the best non-druid grappler you can find (large + stupid high str + improved grab). If you combined it with reaping mauler you could make a terrifying wrestler instead of a multiattacker.

[Keld Denar]

If you combined it with reaping mauler you could make a terrifying wrestler instead of a multiattacker.

False. Reaping Mauler requires you to be medium sized (has Clever Wrestler as a feat prereq, and Clever Wrestler requires you to be medium). Thus, you can't both be a large bear AND a Reaping Mauler. And its actually worse, since Reaping Mauler is in Complete Warrior which has that one clause that states that if you cease to qualify for a PrC in the book, you lose it forever. Thus, the first time you turn into a large bear, all of your Reaping Mauler levels turn off indefinitely.

So...no.

And the best non-druid wrestler is probably a Totemist, or a Totemist based soul manifester using Grip of Iron, Expansion, and Girallon Arms with Kraken Mantle.

[Darth Stabber]

False. Reaping Mauler requires you to be medium sized (has Clever Wrestler as a feat prereq, and Clever Wrestler requires you to be medium). Thus, you can't both be a large bear AND a Reaping Mauler. And its actually worse, since Reaping Mauler is in Complete Warrior which has that one clause that states that if you cease to qualify for a PrC in the book, you lose it forever. Thus, the first time you turn into a large bear, all of your Reaping Mauler levels turn off indefinitely.

Missed that one, makes reaping mauler even worse than I thought.

[Darrin]

Missed that one, makes reaping mauler even worse than I thought.

You can get around the medium-size thing by taking three levels of Leviathan Hunter (Stormwrack p. 61).

[Burgod]

False. Reaping Mauler requires you to be medium sized (has Clever Wrestler as a feat prereq, and Clever Wrestler requires you to be medium). Thus, you can't both be a large bear AND a Reaping Mauler. And its actually worse, since Reaping Mauler is in Complete Warrior which has that one clause that states that if you cease to qualify for a PrC in the book, you lose it forever. Thus, the first time you turn into a large bear, all of your Reaping Mauler levels turn off indefinitely....

Pardon my thread necromancy and noob-ness, but where does it state in Clever Wrestling that you must stay medium sized? As I know my knowledge is horrible and all but all I see regarding that is the prerequisite to take the feat in the first place. As far as my vision goes (not very far in the first place) I see nothing that states "target must be larger then YOU" or "must be small or medium when grappling".

[olentu]

Pardon my thread necromancy and noob-ness, but where does it state in Clever Wrestling that you must stay medium sized? As I know my knowledge is horrible and all but all I see regarding that is the prerequisite to take the feat in the first place. As far as my vision goes (not very far in the first place) I see nothing that states "target must be larger then YOU" or "must be small or medium when grappling".

See the PHB page 87 under perquisites.

Basically you can't use a feat if you do not currently meet the perquisites.

[Burgod]

See the PHB page 87 under perquisites.

Basically you can't use a feat if you do not currently meet the perquisites.

Ok thanks for the clarification.

[cmakonline]

if a bear is wanted....being a werebear is far more fun!

[Greenish]

if a bear is wanted....being a werebear is far more fun!If I wanted to be forced to be LG, I'd play a paladin that actually keeps it's class features by being LG instead of a barbarian who loses them.

[dgnslyr]

if a bear is wanted....being a werebear is far more fun!

But then you have to eat LA and RHD and ugh that's no fun. Besides, Bear Warrior means you get so mad, you turn into a bear. How do you beat that?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

But then you have to eat LA and RHD and ugh that's no fun. Besides, Bear Warrior means you get so mad, you turn into a bear. How do you beat that?

To answer your question: I bear it.:smallwink:

[deuxhero]

That was unbearable...

[cmakonline]

But then you have to eat LA and RHD and ugh that's no fun. Besides, Bear Warrior means you get so mad, you turn into a bear. How do you beat that?

Bear Warrior can either go 1 level (always look like a bear when raging but only get a boost to abilities 1/day of black bear), 3 levels (if u want scent), 5 levels (for brown bear and 2/day of ability boost), 7 levels (if u want another rage/day), or 10 levels (for dire bear and 3/day ability boost).

Werebear will be either 2 LA or 3 LA (depending if its natural or afflicted) and 6 HD for the animal. If someone would go for 10 levels in Bear Warrior, then Werebear would be much better! If going afflicted, then you would need control shape skill to be able to shift when you want. If going natural, then shift when ever/where ever you want! Don't need to just rage to get the power of the bear! The dire bear isn't much better than the brown btw.

[Keld Denar]

Keep in mind that there is errata for Complete Warrior that changes the X/day thing to "every time you rage", so only 1 level is needed, unless you want Brown Bear form.

[cmakonline]

Keep in mind that there is errata for Complete Warrior that changes the X/day thing to "every time you rage", so only 1 level is needed, unless you want Brown Bear form.

Forgot about the errata....that does make a difference.

[Darth Stabber]

Are there any races that have rage? I know that SWd20 and SWSE both give it to wookies, but wookie bear warrior almost seems redundant.

[Keld Denar]

Orc Paragon gets rage, without the pesky "must be chaotic" clause (or claws, as the case may be!). I guess if you were like, an Anthro-Badger or Anthro-Wolverine, you'd have racial rage, but you'd also have some racial HD which are pretty much strictly worse than Barbarian levels.

So...to answer your question, I can't think of any +0 LA races that have Rage, sorry.

[Darth Stabber]

Orc Paragon gets rage, without the pesky "must be chaotic" clause (or claws, as the case may be!). I guess if you were like, an Anthro-Badger or Anthro-Wolverine, you'd have racial rage, but you'd also have some racial HD which are pretty much strictly worse than Barbarian levels.

So...to answer your question, I can't think of any +0 LA races that have Rage, sorry.

So adapting wookie it is. Have to work out a way to mitigate the inability to speak (which is compounded by illiteracy, wow I found a situation where that "class ability" REALLY matters, though once fighter lvls get involved it goes away)