PDA

View Full Version : How do you keep evil / chaotic PCs to WBL?



Talakeal
2011-06-05, 04:30 PM
One thing I have never been able to deal with is how to keep the economy running in a group that has one or more evil or chaotic neutral PCs, as they always find immoral ways to get extra loot, and if I try and keep them within the wealth by level guide lines I either need to hand wave stuff into nonsense or throw out civilized currency entirely and simply resort to a setting where no one will deal with the PCs and they need to steal and kill to survive.

Here are some examples of things players have done in my games, to give you an idea what I am talking about:

An item I want but can't afford is in a shop, I will kill the merchant and take it.
I will mind control a merchant into giving me goods for free.
I will bluff a merchant into buying my worthless items for a fortune as I tell him they are actually artifacts and beat his sense motive by 25.
I rescue the princess, and then tell the king that he better double his reward if he wants to get his daughter back alive.
Rob a bank.
Bad guys stole treasure X that we are hired to get back, we will kill the bad guys and keep it.
Killing friendly quest givers and NPCs and looting them, preferably just after they have given us the location of the bad guy (and his loot).
Hiring powerful henchmen or talking good NPCs into helping them, and then letting them die / get badly wounded in battle and take their stuff.
Sell captured enemies into slavery.

I know, I know, I have messed up players. But none of this stuff is terribly out of character for a chaotic neutral thief, or if we are running an evil game to begin with, but it still messess up all notions of WBL and economy in the game.

imperialspectre
2011-06-05, 04:35 PM
Any shop that deals in high-level magic items would necessarily have high-level magical protections, and a shop that isn't in that kind of business wouldn't have the resources to just buy an "artifact". Your problem has more to do with world-building than system failure.

dsmiles
2011-06-05, 04:46 PM
Well, if they're robbing banks and dominating shopkeepers, the law should handle it. Throw 'em in jail, freeze their assets, confiscate stolen goods...there's a ton of ways to deal with them.

RandomLunatic
2011-06-05, 04:49 PM
One way is to take the value of their illicit gains and just quietly dock it from their next quest reward. This will unfortunately tend to lead to a wealth skew towards your underhanded players, especially if they are not telling anybody about this (IC).

But as imperialspectre said, most of these specific problems can solved just by applying realistic consequnces.


An item I want but can't afford is in a shop, I will kill the merchant and take it.
I will mind control a merchant into giving me goods for free.Merchants who trade in magic items will have-get ready for it-access to magic items. Which includes things making oneself resistant to being stabbed or magicked. Also, if they get caught, expect the law to get involved.


I will bluff a merchant into buying my worthless items for a fortune as I tell him they are actually artifacts and beat his sense motive by 25.No matter how good the bluff check, they are going to at least spring for a Detect Magic, if not a full Ananlyze Deweomer or Legend Lore. If some guy came int oyour store and offered to sell you a Picasso for $50,000, wouldn't you have it authenticated first?


Rob a bank.Is going to have guards. Basically, make it an adventure/encounter, and the amount in the safe is their reward for successful completion.


I rescue the princess, and then tell the king that he better double his reward if he wants to get his daughter back alive.

Bad guys stole treasure X that we are hired to get back, we will kill the bad guys and keep it.Original patron hires another ground of murderous hobos adventurers to kill the PCs and return the Princess/treasure.


Killing friendly quest givers and NPCs and looting them, preferably just after they have given us the location of the bad guy (and his loot).
Hiring powerful henchmen or talking good NPCs into helping them, and then letting them die / get badly wounded in battle and take their stuff.When word gets around about how they treat thier "allies", the PCs are going to have a hard time replacing the ones they kill.

Lapak
2011-06-05, 05:00 PM
Yeah, it boils down to being willing to confront them with overwhelming force. Unless they have already conquered the world and have omnipotent godlike power (in which case it's much too late to worry about WBL) the rest of the world will react to their actions. Cities and kingdoms have access to resources that will put them down hard and permanently if they go around behaving his way, for example. These things will put them on any major polities' scry-and-die list if done frequently, and they probably won't last a week:

An item I want but can't afford is in a shop, I will kill the merchant and take it.
I will mind control a merchant into giving me goods for free.
I will bluff a merchant into buying my worthless items for a fortune as I tell him they are actually artifacts and beat his sense motive by 25.
I rescue the princess, and then tell the king that he better double his reward if he wants to get his daughter back alive.
Rob a bank.
Some things that don't annoy governments annoy people. And most people have friends. Some of them have powerful friends, and the more wealth they have the more likely that is. So betraying people in ways on this part of the list will potentially draw down the ire of large organizations of angry people. Also, as mentioned, getting a reputation for doing this WILL make some of them impossible very quickly:

Bad guys stole treasure X that we are hired to get back, we will kill the bad guys and keep it.
Killing friendly quest givers and NPCs and looting them, preferably just after they have given us the location of the bad guy (and his loot).
Hiring powerful henchmen or talking good NPCs into helping them, and then letting them die / get badly wounded in battle and take their stuff.

Of all the things you mentioned, only
Sell captured enemies into slavery. is one they might get away with, and that only in societies that don't frown on it, and it's the least profitable of the bunch to boot.

Doing any of this quietly and occasionally will be fine. Doing it constantly and without a care in the world will have consequences, and if you want them to restrain themselves you have to make that clear AND be willing to deliver on the consequences if they don't.

Talakeal
2011-06-05, 05:33 PM
Ok, couple of problems.

First, if I send the law after them, they will cry killer GM unless it is a level appropriate encounter, in which case I am just encouraging their behavior by sending them simple chunks of loot and xp in the form of guards.

Second, even if I dock their WBL from the next dungeon, it doesnt matter because they dont care because they don't actually need the gold to buy things, they will just find someone who would sell them the item if they had the gold and take the item by force.

Third, even if the high end shop keepers are immune to mind control or strong enough to resist violece (which also gets cries of killer DM) they can still rob a dozen lower end shop keepers and then trade their stolen goods to the high end shop keepers who I cant possibly justify having that sort of protection.

Fourth, have you seen the examples of bluffs that beat sense motive by +20? Convincing someone that they don't need to identify the +25 sword of a thousand truths because they can trust a guy like you who has never told a lie in his life is pretty run of the mill, and besides they are letting the sword go for a steal at only half a million gold pieces, you don't want that offer to pass them by!

sharona
2011-06-05, 05:38 PM
What they said.

Where are the *consequences* of this group's actions?

Paging Inigo Montoya to the red phone. Paging Inigo Montoya to the red phone ...

(only in this case Inigo is already grown-up, a full Mage-Captain in His Majesty's Guard when he is called back home for Dad's funeral ... and he's got lots of accrued vacation time plus a bunch of buddies who've got his back, nevermind access to the royal Intelligence service)

Why would anyone hire a party that has been shown to steal the object of a quest for themselves, or hold it for additional ransom?

Why would anyone buy from a party that the Merchant's Guild grapevine has BOLOs on for selling worthless goods and doing SOME sort of magic -- we don't know what, but after they leave your shop something's always missing! (One moment, I'll get back to my rant as soon as I talk to this guy about getting me some protection and setting up a sting ...) And if the party isn't identifiable, well, just the fact that several other merchants have been hit with a specific scam/tactic lately means the remainder will be extra-careful to take precautions.

Why would anyone hire on or help out a party when previous helpers have never returned? Not every NPC is a spineless easily-intimidated wimp (some merely pretend to be, for their own purposes).

Parties can usually get away with this here and there. But even Evil parties, just like evil overlords, need to be mindful of the enemies they make.

There are soooo many ways this could be used for future encounters over several sessions, perhaps.

dsmiles
2011-06-05, 05:41 PM
Alternatively, after this campaign comes to an early close, ask one of them to DM and make sure everybody acts the same way towards them. Do this one at a time, until everybody learns that they are ruining the fun. The DM is supposed to be having fun, too.

Morty
2011-06-05, 05:41 PM
First, if I send the law after them, they will cry killer GM unless it is a level appropriate encounter, in which case I am just encouraging their behavior by sending them simple chunks of loot and xp in the form of guards.


At which point you should tell them that if they go around using violence and deceit to solve all of their problems, they should expect be hit with overwhelming force that might well be above their level.

sharona
2011-06-05, 05:42 PM
Ok, couple of problems.

First, if I send the law after them, they will cry killer GM unless it is a level appropriate encounter, in which case I am just encouraging their behavior by sending them simple chunks of loot and xp in the form of guards.

If the guards are simple chunks of loot and XP, then it's not a level-appropriate encounter.

sharona
2011-06-05, 05:47 PM
Third, even if the high end shop keepers are immune to mind control or strong enough to resist violece (which also gets cries of killer DM) they can still rob a dozen lower end shop keepers and then trade their stolen goods to the high end shop keepers who I cant possibly justify having that sort of protection.

Wait - why is it unreasonable for shopkeepers to find ways to defend themselves against a Killer Party?

Once the effects wear off, and the shopkeeper's found out he's been bilked, and perhaps is smart enough to know there was magical influence involved ... and he's still expected to be a sitting duck and furthermore not warn his fellow merchants, in town or in the Guild if there is one?

And I'm all for level-IN-appropriate encounters if there are ways they can avoid pure combat. Heck, half the stuff I write is scaled combat-wise for a far more powerful group, specifically to get them to look for options other than outright-attack ... or fight *smart* instead of *stats*

TroubleBrewing
2011-06-05, 05:48 PM
So they cry killer DM. So what?

Your players clearly do not fear you. They have no sense of in-game consequences.

Talk to them outside of the game. Tell them that you don't enjoy their behavior, and that you won't put up with it. Either they mature in playstyle, or they get to venture through the Forest Where Everything Is A High-level Druid.

Gorgondantess
2011-06-05, 05:48 PM
Tell me this: how in the hell are your merchants with access to a whole slew of powerful magical items so easy to kill and take by force? You should be making your world more realistic. If it's so easy to just kill a merchant and take all their vast amounts of wealth, then everybody would be doing it. And if everybody was doing it, then only the toughest and best merchants would survive. Tough enough that they can take on the PCs. And don't forget, the merchant knows his inventory a lot better than the PCs, and likely has full ranks in UMD- so, have him pull out a few scrolls of limited wish that he kept for just such an occasion.
And as for crying killer DM- well, that's kindof your fault. You shouldn't have let the game turn into a CE monty haul. Before you let your characters get so out of control, just think about it for a moment, and you should've come to similar conclusions as the above. Then they wouldn't be expecting to get away with all of this all the time.

Lappy9000
2011-06-05, 05:55 PM
I run horrendously Chaotic Evil campaigns all the time, almost to the point where I have difficulty handling parties where the PC's are not bloodthirsty violent and cunning villain protagonists :smalltongue:

We never really have any problems with this because they know that their actions will have realistic consequences in the world (also, I don't use the Wealth By Level table, 'cause I think 300gp/encounter at 1st level is insane).

However, I will almost never say "No, you can't do that" to the actions of PC's, excluding in-party violence. The example I give to everyone is, yes, you can kill the king in his throne room, if you're prepared to fight his elite guards to escape. If you're clever enough to pull it off (maybe by convincing the guards to join you in advance?), awesome! But it certainly won't be easy.

Your groups calling out of "killer GM" just sounds like an excuse to do whatever the Nine Hells they want without consequences for their actions, which should absolutely not stand. Maybe show them once or twice what a true sadistic killer GM is to put them in their place (in a non-canon romp, naturally).

You don't need to make NPC's more powerful than the PC's. Use the power of trickery and paranoia to your advantage. It sounds to me that you just need to be tougher on your group (but not too tough. Make sure everyone's still having fun).



So they cry killer DM. So what?

Your players clearly do not fear you. They have no sense of in-game consequences.

Talk to them outside of the game. Tell them that you don't enjoy their behavior, and that you won't put up with it. Either they mature in playstyle, or they get to venture through the Forest Where Everything Is A High-level Druid.Basically, this. Great advice!

Ravens_cry
2011-06-05, 05:56 PM
A living, breathing world should have consequences. People are going to stop wanting to deal with them, after all, they have a reputation of theft, and those who do will be likely charge a surcharge for it, criminal, shady types likely, maybe even double. Or more.
As for robbing a bank, any bank that deal in adventurer worthy amounts is going to have excellent security, both mundane and magical. After all, if a bank can not convince its customers that the money is safer with the bank than locked up in their homes, the bank goes out of business. A living breathing world also should have a sense of history. The PC are by no means the first people to try robbing a bank and a highly successful bank will have experience.
The same with merchants who deal in magic items and other things of high value. The stupid ones who carries around items worth thousands of gold, or more, without security were weeded out long ago.
And if they still keep it up, bounty hunters, guards, and others are going to be on the look out for them. You robbed that merchant? Turns out it was a front for a powerful thieves guild. The people don't go to the guards with their troubles, oh no, they have other, more definite, means of exacting their kind of justice.

Provengreil
2011-06-05, 05:56 PM
Ok, couple of problems.

First, if I send the law after them, they will cry killer GM unless it is a level appropriate encounter, in which case I am just encouraging their behavior by sending them simple chunks of loot and xp in the form of guards.

Second, even if I dock their WBL from the next dungeon, it doesnt matter because they dont care because they don't actually need the gold to buy things, they will just find someone who would sell them the item if they had the gold and take the item by force.

Third, even if the high end shop keepers are immune to mind control or strong enough to resist violece (which also gets cries of killer DM) they can still rob a dozen lower end shop keepers and then trade their stolen goods to the high end shop keepers who I cant possibly justify having that sort of protection.

Fourth, have you seen the examples of bluffs that beat sense motive by +20? Convincing someone that they don't need to identify the +25 sword of a thousand truths because they can trust a guy like you who has never told a lie in his life is pretty run of the mill, and besides they are letting the sword go for a steal at only half a million gold pieces, you don't want that offer to pass them by!

even a basic appraise check will give them absolutely massive bonuses to sense motive, assuming a decent success. now take a gander at what quite a lot of merchants will have as a skill.

example: this (ordinary diamond) is a gem of wishing!
(one appraise check later, complete with detect magic) no it isn't.

erikun
2011-06-05, 06:04 PM
First, if I send the law after them, they will cry killer GM unless it is a level appropriate encounter, in which case I am just encouraging their behavior by sending them simple chunks of loot and xp in the form of guards.
Make it an adventure, then. Give them their level-appropriate encounter. Have them find wanted posters with a price on their head. Make them realize that, if they show their face anywhere inside Kingdom of X, they'll be getting level-appropriate encounters until they leave or burn the town down. If they want to play Chaotic Evil Stupid, then why are the Lawful Good governments playing nice with them?


Second, even if I dock their WBL from the next dungeon, it doesnt matter because they dont care because they don't actually need the gold to buy things, they will just find someone who would sell them the item if they had the gold and take the item by force.

Third, even if the high end shop keepers are immune to mind control or strong enough to resist violece (which also gets cries of killer DM) they can still rob a dozen lower end shop keepers and then trade their stolen goods to the high end shop keepers who I cant possibly justify having that sort of protection.
At some point, the merchants with the low- to mid-level magical items will all either be dead or have sold their merchandise to the high-level merchants. That's kind of how economics works; it culls the weak and preserves the strong. Nobody in their right mind are going to start selling +3 swords in such a situation unless they have the highest grade protections.

Also, the merchants that the party can deal with will be quite familiar with them at that point. As in, running a store with several gated Solars and wearing a full set of +5 (or higher) equipment. At that point, if the players want to start a fight, then there is no need to restrain things to a "level-appropriate encounter".

[EDIT]
Oh, and there is little reason for such a merchant not to leverage or blackmail the party. You want a +3 sword? That'll be ten times standard market value. Don't like the offer? Well, thank you for killing all my competition; you won't be able to buy your equipment anywhere else now.



Fourth, have you seen the examples of bluffs that beat sense motive by +20? Convincing someone that they don't need to identify the +25 sword of a thousand truths because they can trust a guy like you who has never told a lie in his life is pretty run of the mill, and besides they are letting the sword go for a steal at only half a million gold pieces, you don't want that offer to pass them by!
If somebody tells me that they're willing to sell an exceptionally valuable sword for half a million gold pieces, my first response is suspicion. Why not sell it to the reputable dealer for full price?

Remember that a bluff check makes the target believe you are being honest; it does not completely change the target's mind. It also lasts for only one round (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm), meaning that even with an infinitely high check, they will begin to doubt you six seconds after the offer.

And finally, how many merchants are going to have half a million gold pieces lying around their shop? Especially with murdering outlaws killing merchants throughout the kingdom? Any intelligent merchant will keep such money somewhere else, or will be working for our high-end, magic-buffed merchant who is immune to such trickery.

Mastikator
2011-06-05, 06:17 PM
An item I want but can't afford is in a shop, I will kill the merchant and take it.
I will mind control a merchant into giving me goods for free.
I will bluff a merchant into buying my worthless items for a fortune as I tell him they are actually artifacts and beat his sense motive by 25.
You now have a price on your head for the same or higher value of that you've stolen plus the damage you've caused to people. Assassins will soon kill you.


I rescue the princess, and then tell the king that he better double his reward if he wants to get his daughter back alive.
The king pays. Then banishes you from his kingdom and offers money for anyone who brings your head on a stake.


Rob a bank. City guards stab you to death.


Bad guys stole treasure X that we are hired to get back, we will kill the bad guys and keep it.
Next adventuring group is now hired to kill you and get the treasure you stole back.


Killing friendly quest givers and NPCs and looting them, preferably just after they have given us the location of the bad guy (and his loot).
Same as the first one.


Hiring powerful henchmen or talking good NPCs into helping them, and then letting them die / get badly wounded in battle and take their stuff.
They get blackballed from ALL other henchmen and nobody will trust them.


Sell captured enemies into slavery. Get a "wanted dead or alive" poster on every tavern door in the place as a known bandit and slavery



It's a mistake to assume that the PC's are the most powerful entities in the world. Or that the PC's won't get a very bad and well deserved reputation for their actions, and that NPC's won't respond appropriately.

Odin the Ignoble
2011-06-05, 06:18 PM
If the party is doing this they need "Killer DM" stuff. There actions should have consequences equal to the gravity of the action.

If you screw over the King, expect him to screw you over harder. And he's got armies/court magicians/a kingdom's treasury all on hand to do it with.

Anyone selling Magic Items probably has to deal with people like your party all the time. Meaning that he'd probably be able to take on your entire party, a couple of times a day if he needed too. And that'd be without resorting to calling in connections.

I'd just take a rough total of the cost of everything in his shop, and find his level via WBL. If he's selling the party a 7,500 gp item, he's probably got at least 75,000 in his shop, not to mention the money he'd spend on stuff other then inventory. He'd easily be a 12th or hire level character, with a whole lot of contingencies to protect him from evil/chaotic customers.

If the merchant weren't tough enough/smart enough to protect his business, he'd probably be out of business long before the characters got there.

If a GM creates a realistic reaction to a PC's action and the players cry "Killer DM" then the characters are most likely "Stupid Evil".

mathemagician
2011-06-05, 06:59 PM
Take a page from Harry Potter, use a port-key.

Get some higher powers of law involved. Tempt them with an item they want, and then make it The next item they steal without running a unique, disenchant-anti-theft-device transports them to an interdimensional court, where they stand trial for their past transgressions. Make an adventure out of being imprisoned and trying to regain what gear is legitimately theirs.

Alternatively, it could just be a trap by the merchants guild.

Also, yes, send high level adventurers after them. Give them warning first, of course, a bounty on their heads that starts at a moderate price. Give them some freebies, some really low level adventurers for them to feel all strong and badass, except now they've earned a higher bounty, and perhaps vengeance of a high level adventurer related to one of those slaughtered. After a few chances at redemption, if the players continue, let them know that they are pushing the line. Make sure they realize that they are essentially walking up to a dragon, and giving it a swift kick, and not expecting to be slain for it. If they decide their characters are sufficiently arrogant to continue, kill them with high level adventurers after the bounty. Make sure they realize that it is their actions that are driving this line of plot, not yours.

Absol197
2011-06-05, 07:30 PM
Basically what everybody else has said: there are no realistic consequences in your game world, so the players have come to expect to be able to do the things they are doing with no consequences. The DMG has a whole section on this, about altering the world based on the existence of things like magic, monsters, and other elements of the D&D world.

It is a fact in our world as well as in the D&D world: people who sell valuable stuff (jewelry, electronics, magic items, etc.) have to deal with thieves constantly. They will have protections in place. In neither world are the merchants necessarily the best to defend their own property, but they do have means to defend themselves, nontheless.
In our world, not only is there the police, who will respond to any thefts (and murders) and go to great lengths to bring the purpetrators to justice, but also they hire out to private security, people who have been trained to deal with things like this.

In a D&D-verse, the merchants will have mid- to high-level warriors on the premises any time there are customers in the shop. They most likely won't keep their merchandise (especially their most valuable stuff) in the front of the shop. It will be in the back. Most of their stuff sill be trapped in some fashion, and when it's not being shown to a customer, some kind of magical effects will be used to protect it. The merchants will also likely have paid local wizard's guilds or wizard's colleges for additional magical support against thieves. They'll likely have spells like alarm or something simple set up, or a sending stone, and then high-level wizards teleport in the moment the players start something.
As for using Bluff to sell someone snake oil, consider the chart on the Bluff skill, here: modifiers to Bluff skill. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/skillsCha.html) If the Bluff is "way out there, almost too impossible to consider," like the example you gave, you take a -20 penalty to your Bluff check (or a +20 to your Sense Motive, one or the other). Making impossible lies usually doesn't work. And as others said, it's not a suggestion spell. even if the merchant believes them, they're very likely to say, "Wow, that's great! Just let me confirm it real quick..."

tribble
2011-06-05, 07:30 PM
Why does it need to be so complicated? Just stop playing with ten-year olds.:smallamused:

Grendus
2011-06-05, 08:17 PM
Don't forget, there are plenty of nasty ways to take down a higher level character with lower level abilities. Many of these are available to fifth level or lower characters, which wouldn't be uncommon in medium sized villages. If the PC's are causing a ruckus, maybe the captain of the guard (5th level warblade), head of the local chapter of the mages guild (5th level wizard), and the high priest at the local temple (5th level cleric) round up some mercenaries or less psychotic hobos to help them bring the PC's down. Don't forget, Tuckers Kobolds were only CR 1/3, but their tactics made them terrifying enemies.

Casters:
1. Sunder a spellcaster's spell component pouch/holy symbol.
2. Cast Silence on a bolt and have your best sniper shoot the wizard with it.
3. Archers with readied actions to shoot if he tries to cast. First level sorcerers with Magic Missile prepared are even better, as almost nothing protects against force damage.
4. Protection from Evil would hedge out enchantment spells and summons.
5. Stack some concentration debuffs. For lower level characters, deafness (20% chance of failure), entangled (DC 15 concentration check), threatened squares (enlarged guardsman with a spiked chain, DC 15 concentration check or eat an attack of opportunity) are easy. Damage over time abilities work well if you can find them, unless they have a high concentration modifier there's still the chance of a bad roll.
6. If they have a signature spell, you can have someone get ready to counterspell. Yes, it's a waste of an action, but if you have the action advantage using your round to lock the wizard down could be a good use.
7. Don't forget, wizards have crap fortitude saves. Early fortitude based save or dies are great. Poisons are great too, though make sure it makes legal sense for them to be using them.

Fighters:
1. Grease. Most fighter classes don't get balance as a class skill, he'll be flat footed and vulnerable to a bunch of rogue archers. A few first level spells and even first and second level rogues can hit through his armor.
2. Ray of Enfeeblement offers no save. 1d6+2 strength penalty, and an Empowered Spellshard is cheap.
3. Ray of Exhaustion can strip him of full attack options, but offers a fortitude save. Slow, however, offers a will save which will probably be lower.
4. A goliath or half giant tripper build can completely lock a fighter type down.
5. One word - shatter.
6. A Net or Tanglefoot Bag only requires a touch attack, but halves their movement rate.
7. Entangle sucks. Escape Artist isn't usually a class skill for melee types, and even a raging barbarian has trouble with a DC 20 strength check. Even if they make it, they move half speed.
8. Web is even worse. Unless they're carrying flaming weapons, expect them to be glued in place.


And this is all available at level 5. If we're talking torqued off king, he probably has a high priest or high wizard at his command, or at least a more morally inclined group of murderous hobos he can send after them. More morally ambiguous enemies may send assassins, guerrilla tactics with Death Attacks could be nasty. DC 14 is easy-ish to pass, but anyone dies to a natural 1. Anger an assassins guild...

Ravens_cry
2011-06-05, 08:20 PM
Why does it need to be so complicated? Just stop playing with ten-year olds.:smallamused:
Well, yes, that is an option, but any game that goes in for verisimilitude and sandboxing should have these features, lurking in the background as part of living, breathing world.

Lappy9000
2011-06-05, 08:25 PM
Also, about the Bluff thing, I have a little trick for that (but use it sparingly).

So the 8th level bard with a +60 modifier to Bluff tries to convince the king of Countryrealm that he is, in fact, a piece of toast. The king naturally fails his Sense Motive, and honestly believes that the bard thinks the king is a piece of toast. He then calls his guard on the raving lunatic in his court.

Grendus
2011-06-05, 08:44 PM
For bluff, I always went with the "some things are just ridiculous" approach. No, the king is not going to believe that he's really you and he should give you the crown. No, the shopkeeper is not going to believe that that dingy gray rock you picked up outside is actually a +25 halfling skiprock of infinite wishes. Some things people just can't be convinced of.

HappyBlanket
2011-06-05, 09:09 PM
Also, about the Bluff thing, I have a little trick for that (but use it sparingly).

So the 8th level bard with a +60 modifier to Bluff tries to convince the king of Countryrealm that he is, in fact, a piece of toast. The king naturally fails his Sense Motive, and honestly believes that the bard thinks the king is a piece of toast. He then calls his guard on the raving lunatic in his court.

Oh god. Can I say "yes please" enough?

edit: Oh yeah, forgot to add. Throw a few Kolyaruts around if you're working with the broken deal, so long as that's level appropriate.

Traab
2011-06-05, 09:20 PM
Your guard attack doesnt have to be a tpk to be a winner. These guards will be attacking your group in the middle of main street at high noon. Word is going to get around town that this party is full of dangerous thieves that will rob and/or kill you for your merchandise. I know if I were a purveyor of magical goods, id invest in some powerful bodyguards after seeing that go down.

So, now noone will sell to the team in that city, and every merchant is heavily guarded by some npc goon squad that is conveniently more powerful than they are. Congrats, you managed to ripoff one or two stores and make some money. Too bad you cant do anything else in this town as everyone is ready to kill you to protect themselves.

gomanfox
2011-06-05, 09:25 PM
It really sounds like the problem is the OP is too afraid to punish the players for stupid actions. If you have a party of first level PCs that get an audience with the king of a country for a quest or something, and your players are stupid enough to attempt to kill him, you don't throw a level-appropriate encounter at the PCs and reward them with the king's treasury. It would be unrealistic for the ruler of a country to not be protected by well-trained and well-equipped guards, just because the encounter needs to be winnable by the PCs. The DMG even suggests that some portion of your encounters should be extremely difficult (if not impossible) to survive without retreat.

If your players complain that it's unfair, tell them to think about the consequences of their actions before doing things like that. I'm sure with enough overpowering encounters thrown at them when they rob shops (that should be well-defended) or when they make demands or threaten powerful people, they'll eventually learn they need to stop doing it... or find smarter ways of doing it at least.

Of course, it would also help to talk to your players outside of the game and let them know they should expect stronger consequences for their actions, because you're wanting a more realistic world. How you describe your players, it sounds like they could probably get away with killing the high priest of a god in the presence of that deity without worrying about punishment because a god smiting them would be "unfair." If you're afraid of showing your players realistic consequences, you may just want to find a new group of people to run a game for.

Arbane
2011-06-05, 09:51 PM
At which point you should tell them that if they go around using violence and deceit to solve all of their problems, they should expect be hit with overwhelming force that might well be above their level.

Wait, I'm confused. Violence and deceit AREN'T supposed to be the solution to all problems?

Talakeal
2011-06-05, 11:59 PM
If you look at some of the previous threads I have started my players get extremely upset at any encounter that they don't "win", even if it is a perfectly level appropriate encounter or one that they are only involved in because of their own actions or lack thereof.

Maybe I should toughen up, but it seems like they just wouldn't play then rather than outgrowing it.

Also, if they are playing evil characters rather than chaotic neutral characters it is because I told them that I would be running an evil game, so if I sent capable guards at them every time they did something evil it would appear that I was just screwing them over for playing their characters. What I am really wondering is how I can let them play in a "magic mart" style campaign when they show no compunctions about killing or mind controlling merchants.

My players also do not enjoy high level NPCs because they feel they are worthless, and I can see where they are coming from. If every shop has access to high level security, how is the town in any danger from the orc raiders they are sent out to slay? As a result my campaign world has very few high level NPCs, and those there are have better things to do than stand guard at a shop.

bannable
2011-06-06, 12:21 AM
While I typically abhor this, high level NPCs sell high level items. If they only want to deal with low level NPCs, only give them low level equipment.

If they complain, recommend a game of Candy Land to them. That way they can always win.

Ravens_cry
2011-06-06, 12:23 AM
There still be basic precautions involved, otherwise no one would do this kind of business. Maybe some noble or monarch in more of need of gold than a magic item will sell it to you, and visa versa, but otherwise the risk of theft is simply too great. Orc and other raids will occur out on the edge of civilisation, where such precautions may not be available, giving low level PC something to do and feel valuable. But for this reason, goods worth stealing will not be available. If they want to acquire high level items, they have to travel to major centres, where these precautions WILL be available.

Anxe
2011-06-06, 12:31 AM
Just keep giving them what they want. Eventually they will realize that their characters have no real friends and have led a meaningless and empty life. Then they'll start killing each other. :belkar:

Odin the Ignoble
2011-06-06, 12:32 AM
Also, about the Bluff thing, I have a little trick for that (but use it sparingly).

So the 8th level bard with a +60 modifier to Bluff tries to convince the king of Countryrealm that he is, in fact, a piece of toast. The king naturally fails his Sense Motive, and honestly believes that the bard thinks the king is a piece of toast. He then calls his guard on the raving lunatic in his court.

That's a house rule I've always used. That bluff just convinces the opponent that what you believe what you say.

If you tell a guard there's a colossal dragon behind that door, they'll act accordingly. If that particular door is a door to a broom closet, acting according probably means laughing in your face.



My players also do not enjoy high level NPCs because they feel they are worthless, and I can see where they are coming from. If every shop has access to high level security, how is the town in any danger from the orc raiders they are sent out to slay? As a result my campaign world has very few high level NPCs, and those there are have better things to do than stand guard at a shop.

They might not be a threat to the Shop Keep, just like they probably aren't a threat to the King himself. But Orc Raiders pose a threat to the "little people" all the low end shopkeeps, farmers and assorted peasants. Peasants on who's backs the high level NPC's cushy lives are built.

If there aren't high level NPCs around to sell/protect high level items. Then high level items probably shouldn't be for sale.

Talakeal
2011-06-06, 12:37 AM
That's a house rule I've always used. That bluff just convinces the opponent that what you believe what you say.

If you tell a guard there's a colossal dragon behind that door, they'll act accordingly. If that particular door is a door to a broom closet, acting according probably means laughing in your face.

And then get eaten by the dragon sticking his head out of Mordenkeinan's Magnificent Mansion.

The Glyphstone
2011-06-06, 12:39 AM
Why does it need to be so complicated? Just stop playing with ten-year olds.:smallamused:

Most ten-year-olds I know are more mature than this.

Seonor
2011-06-06, 12:42 AM
My players also do not enjoy high level NPCs because they feel they are worthless, and I can see where they are coming from. If every shop has access to high level security, how is the town in any danger from the orc raiders they are sent out to slay? As a result my campaign world has very few high level NPCs, and those there are have better things to do than stand guard at a shop.

Yes, normally high level NPCs would have something better to do than standing around looking threatening. But after your party killed a few merchants the guild behind them will notice and try to make an example of them. And a magic mart should be very well connected, after all the rich and powerful are going to be their most important costumers. Asking some of them for a favor in return for a discount or a especially rare item should be fairly easy to set up.
And even if the guild doesn't actually seek retrebution, some high level NPCs might decide on their own to step in. Since the magic mart is very convienent for them by giving them a place to buy and sell pricy items without having to search for buyers and sellers for themselfes. Anyone who threatens that is going to get a quick boot to the head. There might actually be somewhat of a gentlemans (and womens) agreement between good, neutral and lawful evil not to disrupt their operation since they are just that usefull. And as soon as a Big Bad finds out that he is can't do an important ritual because someone decided to rob his usual supplier of ingridients he is going to be annoyed. The same is true for the good group of NPCs that is trying to stop the Big Bad but fails because they can't buy the bane arrows that would need to kill the Big Bads pet dragon.

The Glyphstone
2011-06-06, 12:44 AM
End result - you already know what you have to do...you just need to do it, or sit back and let your group continue to run rampant with their sense of entitlement.

absolmorph
2011-06-06, 01:37 AM
If you look at some of the previous threads I have started my players get extremely upset at any encounter that they don't "win", even if it is a perfectly level appropriate encounter or one that they are only involved in because of their own actions or lack thereof.

Maybe I should toughen up, but it seems like they just wouldn't play then rather than outgrowing it.

Also, if they are playing evil characters rather than chaotic neutral characters it is because I told them that I would be running an evil game, so if I sent capable guards at them every time they did something evil it would appear that I was just screwing them over for playing their characters. What I am really wondering is how I can let them play in a "magic mart" style campaign when they show no compunctions about killing or mind controlling merchants.

My players also do not enjoy high level NPCs because they feel they are worthless, and I can see where they are coming from. If every shop has access to high level security, how is the town in any danger from the orc raiders they are sent out to slay? As a result my campaign world has very few high level NPCs, and those there are have better things to do than stand guard at a shop.
Well, first off your players seem a tad spoiled if they get upset because they didn't "win" a fight.

Second, don't punish them for evil acts. Punish them for stupid evil acts.
Going into the town square and spewing hatred against the beloved local lord in an attempt to provoke an uprising? Stupid evil.
Using lies and deceit to assassinate that lord without anyone linking it to you? Evil.

If you want a "magic mart" campaign where the orc raiders still pose a threat to the town, make the party tromp back to a big city when they want an expensive magic item. Or have the guards be only concerned with the safety of the shop and goods, so they're willing to let the town burn down so long as the shop is untouched.

Golden-Esque
2011-06-06, 01:50 AM
One thing I have never been able to deal with is how to keep the economy running in a group that has one or more evil or chaotic neutral PCs, as they always find immoral ways to get extra loot, and if I try and keep them within the wealth by level guide lines I either need to hand wave stuff into nonsense or throw out civilized currency entirely and simply resort to a setting where no one will deal with the PCs and they need to steal and kill to survive.

Here are some examples of things players have done in my games, to give you an idea what I am talking about:

An item I want but can't afford is in a shop, I will kill the merchant and take it.
I will mind control a merchant into giving me goods for free.
I will bluff a merchant into buying my worthless items for a fortune as I tell him they are actually artifacts and beat his sense motive by 25.
I rescue the princess, and then tell the king that he better double his reward if he wants to get his daughter back alive.
Rob a bank.
Bad guys stole treasure X that we are hired to get back, we will kill the bad guys and keep it.
Killing friendly quest givers and NPCs and looting them, preferably just after they have given us the location of the bad guy (and his loot).
Hiring powerful henchmen or talking good NPCs into helping them, and then letting them die / get badly wounded in battle and take their stuff.
Sell captured enemies into slavery.

I know, I know, I have messed up players. But none of this stuff is terribly out of character for a chaotic neutral thief, or if we are running an evil game to begin with, but it still messess up all notions of WBL and economy in the game.

In my opinion, if you have players who are THAT Chaotic / Evil, then Urban adventures may not be the correct route. Why not have them try to conqueror the city and have them raise an army of monsters / rebels in order to do so. If they win, they can use the bank as their private john if they really wanted to! THAT's more in-line with an evil adventure, if you ask me.

Absol197
2011-06-06, 03:42 AM
My players also do not enjoy high level NPCs because they feel they are worthless, and I can see where they are coming from. If every shop has access to high level security, how is the town in any danger from the orc raiders they are sent out to slay? As a result my campaign world has very few high level NPCs, and those there are have better things to do than stand guard at a shop.

Where do the high-level magic items they're trying to steal come from? If you take a look, the caster level of a magic weapon or suit of armor is 3x the enhancement bonus. For a weapon with a total of a +5 bonus, the creator needs to be 15th level. For a scroll of a 7th-level spell, the creator needs to be able to cast that spell, which means being at least 13th. If high-level magic items exist, so do the people who create them, which means that high-level characters must exist as well.

Also, I don't think anyone else has mentioned this before, so I'll get into it: in just about every large urban center, there's going to be some kind of thieves guild. If the players keep up stealing so much in on their turf, the thieve's guild or mob in the area is going to react to that threat. It's not just Good-aligned people that will be after them.

Also, who said that every town has high-level characters? If you look at the section about world-building in the DMG, you'll see high level characters are only really common in large urban centers. However, powerful magic items (Those worth more than around 300-400 gp) are also only found in those same areas. In rinky-dink farming villages in the countryside, you and your players are right: there won't be high-level characters to guard the magic item shops, and the village will be vulnerable to raids from the savage humanoids in the countrysides. However, in those same areas, there really isn't anything worth stealing, either. In order to get stuff worth stealing, they need to go to a big city, where all the precautions mentioned by myself and other will be in effect.

elpollo
2011-06-06, 04:14 AM
If you look at some of the previous threads I have started my players get extremely upset at any encounter that they don't "win", even if it is a perfectly level appropriate encounter or one that they are only involved in because of their own actions or lack thereof.

Point out it's only a game if there's a chance of failure. Offer to point them to a good book or two.



Maybe I should toughen up, but it seems like they just wouldn't play then rather than outgrowing it.

As others have said, explain. Tell them you're not there to indulge them in their power fantasies - you're there to challenge them and to tell a story. Explain why you're not enjoying it, and tell them that their actions will have realistic consequences, so if they go around being psychopathic killers then they will be treated as such by the world.

Also point out how flawed the alignment system is, and that "evil" doesn't necessarily mean "murders everyone ever (yes, even you)". There's no reason that people who fall under Chaotic Evil can't have qualms about killing innocent townspeople.



Also, if they are playing evil characters rather than chaotic neutral characters it is because I told them that I would be running an evil game, so if I sent capable guards at them every time they did something evil it would appear that I was just screwing them over for playing their characters. What I am really wondering is how I can let them play in a "magic mart" style campaign when they show no compunctions about killing or mind controlling merchants.

That would be screwing them over as much as saying "I'm running a pirate game" then pitting them against a rival pirate king when they try and take control of the trade routes is. Evil =/= doing whatever you want without consequences.

You let them play in such a setting as it would be: magical traps abound, high level casters being paid large sums of money to protect things, and various outsiders being used to hunt down those who steal. Warn them of your change in style first. Anything from then on is fair game.



My players also do not enjoy high level NPCs because they feel they are worthless, and I can see where they are coming from. If every shop has access to high level security, how is the town in any danger from the orc raiders they are sent out to slay? As a result my campaign world has very few high level NPCs, and those there are have better things to do than stand guard at a shop.

Absol197 has answered this point better than I probably could, although I will add that you could ask "Either this world has bigger fish than you (in which case expect them gunning for you when you piss them off), or it doesn't. Which is it?" If they choose the latter: "Then well done, you've won D&D. Who's for parcheesi [REPLACE WITH GAME OF CHOICE]?"

GoblinArchmage
2011-06-06, 04:54 AM
Well, first off your players seem a tad spoiled if they get upset because they didn't "win" a fight.

Second, don't punish them for evil acts. Punish them for stupid evil acts.
Going into the town square and spewing hatred against the beloved local lord in an attempt to provoke an uprising? Stupid evil.
Using lies and deceit to assassinate that lord without anyone linking it to you? Evil.



Also point out how flawed the alignment system is, and that "evil" doesn't necessarily mean "murders everyone ever (yes, even you)". There's no reason that people who fall under Chaotic Evil can't have qualms about killing innocent townspeople.

I agree with this. Are the PCs actually roleplaying, or are they just killing everybody because they think that's what evil means? I don't think that there is anything wrong with playing a ruthless and sadistic killer, but if somebody wants to play that then the character should at least be an interesting ruthless and sadistic killer. Running around doing nothing but killing people and stealing without any precautions or interesting motivations doesn't sound very interesting. Yes, playing evil characters is fun, but not when those characters are so lame.

Why are they whining about having challenging encounters? Why aren't they glad that they have made such powerful enemies? What's the fun of being evil if everybody just lets you do your thing without challenging you? If I was playing an evil character, I think that I, as a player, would enjoy having to worry about all of the enemies that I had made.

Earthwalker
2011-06-06, 07:05 AM
Well I agree with what most people have said, give them consquences to thier actions.

I would like to add -

Talk to them out of game about what you are expecting from them, in this evil campaign. Tell them up front that if they try things like this they will have to face consquences.

Then offer suggestions on what you would expect from an evil campaign.

for example -

If they like the idea of going into a shop, rolling one bluff check and getting loot. Say you would rather it ran like Oceans 11 or Hustle (or other con movie / film) So getting what they want (money or magical items) would be the focus of the campaign but they would have to come up with a better con then simply one bluff roll. Explain how they have to make a fake to sell, convince the guy its real. How they would need to maybe set up fake buyers fake auras on the item. Take care of the guys security, by distracting his guards. Maybe one of the group play a fake expert in the item to provide an "indepentant" apprasal of the item.

Or

Make robbing a bank the focus of the adventure. Make it tough with security that would kill them in an open fight, so they have to sneak in. give them traps to foil. People to con. Give them a use for thier mind control magic but not just as a "I Win" button.

Explain this to them, how it would be alot more fun for you, and hopfully them.

Traab
2011-06-06, 07:17 AM
Absol197 has answered this point better than I probably could, although I will add that you could ask "Either this world has bigger fish than you (in which case expect them gunning for you when you piss them off), or it doesn't. Which is it?" If they choose the latter: "Then well done, you've won D&D. Who's for parcheesi [REPLACE WITH GAME OF CHOICE]?"

That is probably the best point you can make with your players. Either there are npcs out there stronger than you, or you already won the game and its all over. Theres no point to playing a rpg if there are no threats your player team cant stomp all over. There is no drama, no risk, no real triumph. You might as well give them this type of mission till they get the message ORC ATTACK! (http://www.goblinscomic.com/08212005/)

Nachtritter
2011-06-06, 08:09 AM
Pull a Fett on them; send in the Bounty Hunters.

Seriously, nothing livens up a game like a grim, terrifying bounty hunter who just won't quit. The next time the PCs get to town, have them notice numerous WANTED posters with their likenesses on them. That may be good for a giggle or two from your group, if I'm reading them correctly. Then, send in a group eager to collect on the bounty - a bunch of low-level thugs, enough to get them to relax your guard.

Then, you start sending in the bounty hunters you've written up, the ones who make Clint Eastwood look like Robin Williams.

The bounty hunter should at least 3 levels higher than the highest leveled member of the party and have either some animal companions or goons to make the encounter more balanced. They should set traps for the characters, or ambush them when they least expect it; they are, after all, hunting individuals known for being dangerous and/or criminally insane. The best part? If the PCs kill one, that'll only up the bounty, meaning even MORE bounty hunters - and likely, more competent ones - will show up to get that coin.

I wouldn't push this idea to its extreme - don't kill or arrest the PCs unless they really need a lesson, and don't do it so much the PCs learn to expect a bounty hunter every time they leave town - but if your campaign's out of control and the PCs are basically acting like piranhas with swords and fireballs, it may be time to bring in a professional to cut their egos down to size.

May I suggest using a wizard as your base class for the bounty hunter? The amount of spells available can make a wizard/bounty hunter extremely easy and, hey, those reagents don't pay for themselves.

Sewercop
2011-06-06, 09:00 AM
This depends alot on the lvl of the group. But if you know about the "wish economy" it is a very good way to tone down your players.

Gold is important up to certain degree, but as soon as you want items that cant be wished up with no exp loss every item will need to be orderd on a case by case basis.

Sure, that +2 sword is in stock... Steal it. But the headband of wicked awesome +x is not going to be lying around. And the merchant will not accept gold for it.
What would he want?
Yup.. save the princess, and ill make it for ya. The kings my friend.

In a very simple step you have made stealing for gold dumb. You can get all the gold you need. But you cant use it to buy overpowerd items. They can still be evil and chaotic and steal and loot. But they will not be able to steal the things the really want.

Make a search for wish economy, its way better explained then this by other people.

The easiset solution for merchants? Its a simulacrum of the wizard.. You kill his copy. You now have a happy wizard clapping his hands for the first manhunt in decades.

Thats some good adventure hook if you ask me :)

drakir_nosslin
2011-06-06, 02:18 PM
*Disclaimer*
I haven't read the entire thread so this might have been suggested already.

Give them a taste of their own medicine. Have the next merchant they talk to offer them a powerful magic item you know that they want. He is obviously protected by lots of guards and stuff, so they are discouraged to attack him. Instead they buy the item, walk away and ten minutes later they discover that the ring of wishes is really just a cheap copper ring with a magic aura or something.
Cue players complaining and the DM explaining that if they can do it, so can anyone else with enough ranks in bluff and a wizard friend.
Do this once or twice, along with sending the law after them etc etc and they might learn something.

Falin
2011-06-06, 02:24 PM
Allow me to introduce you to the Wish Economy. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dungeonomicon_(DnD_Other)/Economicon#Wish_and_the_Economy) You're welcome.

Reluctance
2011-06-06, 03:01 PM
Like everybody else said, low-level commoners will not have the resources to afford high-level items. Make the rewards for conning/killing low-level mundane shopkeepers too cheap and bulky to be worth it, and watch those actions taper off.

If they want impressive items, have them go to impressive places. Sigil, divine realms, bartering with a dragon for something in its hoard, that sort of thing. You're a killer DM if the owner of a small-town general store turns out to be a retired 20th level druid. I can't see that same argument if the huge f'ing dragon your players are dealing with continues to be a huge f'ing dragon if they try to attack or cheat it.

dsmiles
2011-06-06, 03:06 PM
Quick fix: Do away with the MagicMart, they won't have anywhere to rob. If they're robbing MagicMarts, word will spread, and the stores will relocate or close. (I hate the MagicMart concept anyways, so the more people I convert, the happier I am. :smalltongue:)

erikun
2011-06-06, 03:28 PM
My players also do not enjoy high level NPCs because they feel they are worthless, and I can see where they are coming from. If every shop has access to high level security, how is the town in any danger from the orc raiders they are sent out to slay? As a result my campaign world has very few high level NPCs, and those there are have better things to do than stand guard at a shop.
If you are playing an evil campaign, why are they being given quests from the good-aligned townfolk to kill orcs in the first place? It's an evil campaign; they should be getting evil quests from the evil folk. Steal from the merchant caravan, assassinate the mayor, slay the good-aligned townfolk for the orc raiders.

As for the merchant problem, perhaps you could start changing in-game mechanics to reflect their habits. Want to buy a new scroll? Sorry, our local wizard was killed by a bunch of rogues. You'll need to head to the big city for that. +3 sword? Sorry, don't sell those here even sense that merchant caravan was attacked and burned. Buy your sword for 500,000 gold? What are you, crazy? This is just a small town on the outskirts, and the only local merchant that big was assassinated last week.

If the players complain about the sudden lack of merchants, point out that they wouldn't have such trouble if they'd stop robbing and killing merchants. That's how economics works.


Or you can just keep as you are doing, letting the players get away with murder (literally) while an infinite stream of merchants with an infinite stream of money/valuables comes their way. However, I would consider it very stupid not to simply hack apart the 1st level commoners and take their +5 equipment in this case. It's a lot quicker and easier than trying to get the money for a purchase off orc raiders, after all.

Talakeal
2011-06-06, 04:13 PM
I don't usually play evil campaigns. Normally I just have one or two players who are "chaotic neutral" while everyone else is good.

Also, I don't let them just do whatever they want, I do have consequences. The problem is those consequences basically remove the entire concept of treasure from the game, which I feel is taking away a lot.

Instead of go on the adventure, kill the dragon, take its million gold then go to town and spend it on cool swag it becomes "Screw the dragon, his horde is almost all gold, and gold is worthless since we killed every merchant in the region! Let's just go to the neighboring region and track down some more merchants!"

Also, it feels like cheating to change the world based on the alignment of the party. If the small town had no guards and needed the PCs to protect them from orcs I am not suddenly going to stock the town with level 12 fighters just because the PCs are evil, to me that reeks of an MMO.
Magic items are virtually indestructible in my campaign world, and the period has gone through several golden ages of civilization in the past which produced most of them. Over thousands of years of recorded history magic items will accumulate even if there are only one or two guys alive at any given time actually making them.

dsmiles
2011-06-06, 04:19 PM
Yeah, but there should still be consequences. The next city over hears about their antics, they report up the chain of governing bodies until someone has the resources to hire the bounty hunters to track them down. Just letting them run around doing whatever they want without realistic consequences isn't helping the situation any. Seriously. Just send in the bounty hunters. Suffer the cries of "Killer DM." They'll either quit, or shape up. Either way, the gaming community, as a whole, will be better off.

Reluctance
2011-06-06, 04:48 PM
Instead of go on the adventure, kill the dragon, take its million gold then go to town and spend it on cool swag it becomes "Screw the dragon, his horde is almost all gold, and gold is worthless since we killed every merchant in the region! Let's just go to the neighboring region and track down some more merchants!"

This is good-ish. Retcon the world so that powerful creatures care more about magical swag than they do about shiny metal. If you want them to haul off after the dragon and they've shown that they're motivated by magic items, let them know that the dragon's horde has tempting magical items. Simple, no?


Also, it feels like cheating to change the world based on the alignment of the party. If the small town had no guards and needed the PCs to protect them from orcs I am not suddenly going to stock the town with level 12 fighters just because the PCs are evil, to me that reeks of an MMO.

Both the DMG town generation rules and common sense imply that in small villages that are still troubled by orc raiders, there won't be enough of a market for magic items to make running a mage mart profitable. Ergo, there won't be a mage mart to knock over. It's not unreasonable to say that these things can be bought, but that you have to go out of your way to find a seller. The smaller the town, the less you can get from pillaging it, and the less worth your time it becomes.


Magic items are virtually indestructible in my campaign world, and the period has gone through several golden ages of civilization in the past which produced most of them. Over thousands of years of recorded history magic items will accumulate even if there are only one or two guys alive at any given time actually making them.

I'm personally partial to a 4e-ish interpretation, where high level items tend to filter out to the planar markets, but let's even assume an accumulation of items. If you're at the point where permanent magic items are common enough that everybody has one, you have to rework your economy around that. If you're not, these items tend to accumulate in the hands of people powerful enough to defend them, or rich enough to have powerful security. Getting in will take much more than gutting a random schlub.

Besides, here's a chance to show how cartoonish evil doesn't pay. If the PCs decide to rob/kill people willing to buy items off of them, under the assumption that they can take whatever money/gear is on the NPC as well as keeping their original items, pretty soon nobody will be willing to meet with them. That closet full of +1 longswords doesn't do anything if you can't cash them out to afford better gear.

Lapak
2011-06-06, 04:57 PM
I'm personally partial to a 4e-ish interpretation, where high level items tend to filter out to the planar markets, but let's even assume an accumulation of items. If you're at the point where permanent magic items are common enough that everybody has one, you have to rework your economy around that. If you're not, these items tend to accumulate in the hands of people powerful enough to defend them, or rich enough to have powerful security. Getting in will take much more than gutting a random schlub.Hah! Indeed. This reminds me of Dragaera from Stephen Brust's Taltos series; the soul-destroying Morganti weapons are outlawed, but there are scads of them around from when they were built as terror-weapons of war. The end result is that they gradually all filter into the hands of a few nobles who are powerful enough to slide by or ignore the laws against them. Those guys end up with literal armories full of the things.

Very true to the 'rich get richer' way that the real world tends to function, too.

Incanur
2011-06-06, 05:38 PM
While I agree with many of the suggestions, to an extent I think we should blame this on the system. Keeping track of wealth by level is a huge pain in the ass. 3.x D&D economics - particularly the ability to convert gold into power - make certain stories problematic if not impossible. Excluding Vow of Poverty, mighty heroes will invariably be filthy rich yet also discouraged from extravagance because each coin spent on fine wine means a longer wait for next weapon crystal or belt upgrade. Low-level characters can't stumble on a dragon's hoard without becoming dramatically more deadly through their ability to purchase items of win. (RAW, gold turns into gates and then wishes, but that's too silly for most tables.) Putting enchanted swords on the market creates a mechanistic modern feel at odds with the emotion and meaning traditional in the fantasy genre.

erikun
2011-06-06, 05:39 PM
Also, it feels like cheating to change the world based on the alignment of the party. If the small town had no guards and needed the PCs to protect them from orcs I am not suddenly going to stock the town with level 12 fighters just because the PCs are evil, to me that reeks of an MMO.
So if you were playing a good-aligned party and they just happened to burn down a couple of villages and cause the death of several nobles, then a few weeks later the villages would be rebuild and a new batch of nobles shows up to take their place? :smallconfused:

Note that I'm not recommending the world change to match the party's alignment. I'm recommending the world change to match the party's actions. The party kills a bunch of defenseless merchants. Therefore, there are less defenseless merchants. The only ones remaining alive are the ones who can properly defend themselves, are aware of the party's tricks, and have a means of stopping them.


Unless this is all hypothetical, and you are asking how the world should work with 1st level characters. However, I was under the impression that you are talking about an ongoing game, and the whole merchant-killing-high-WBL is something that your players are currently doing.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-06-06, 05:45 PM
Alright, I haven't read most of this and I don't care to. But remember one thing, this is Talakeal's group, the one full of players who tried to wreck a temple just because a full-fledged goddess told them not to. Then, when the temple's guardians killed most of them, they whined and complained.

I have a 9 year-old in my group who's more mature than these guys.

erikun
2011-06-06, 06:00 PM
But remember one thing, this is Talakeal's group, the one full of players who tried to wreck a temple just because a full-fledged goddess told them not to. Then, when the temple's guardians killed most of them, they whined and complained.
Aha, good point.

Might I recommend just not playing an evil campaign with these people? I mean, if they complain that the temple guards defended themselves when the party attacked them, and it wasn't fair because the characters were already weakened, then they don't seem like the most mature group to game with. Just have all merchants sitting behind a Protection from Evil - Detect Lies field with a couple of armed guards behind the counter if things get sticky.

Actually, if you want a random idea, use the 4e method of handling magical items. You don't sell the magic sword to a merchant, you sell it to someone who can break it down into magical powder. They can then use the magical powder to make new magical equipment. Nobody else can use the powder, so it isn't worth anything to anybody else, and the guy making the magical equipment doesn't have anything worthwile to steal. (The party will need to look for another "magicsmith" if they kill the one in town.)

Tvtyrant
2011-06-06, 06:03 PM
Invent the checking system; no matter how many people you kill you can never get their wealth because its all based on signatures and personal arcane marks. There is no central vault of money because the whole economy runs on "trust" IE its a modern economy. Magic items have worth but few people have them, so you basically get to steal clothes and jewelry.

Nachtritter
2011-06-06, 06:49 PM
Alright, I haven't read most of this and I don't care to. But remember one thing, this is Talakeal's group, the one full of players who tried to wreck a temple just because a full-fledged goddess told them not to. Then, when the temple's guardians killed most of them, they whined and complained.

I have a 9 year-old in my group who's more mature than these guys.

Bounty hunters. Trust me.

The Glyphstone
2011-06-06, 06:51 PM
Bounty hunters. Trust me.

They're expensive though, and contract hits are illegal - bad groups aren't worth legal trouble over.






Unless you were talking about bounty hunters for the characters...

Hiro Protagonest
2011-06-06, 06:52 PM
Bounty hunters. Trust me.

These guys attack anyone who tells them what to do. I think there was one instance when a nature spirit or something told them not to harm the forest, so the wizard proceeded to use fireballs on the forest. So if they thought they were being ordered around by their employer, they would attack him.

Edit:
They're expensive though, and contract hits are illegal - bad groups aren't worth legal trouble over.






Unless you were talking about bounty hunters for the characters...
I'm pretty sure he was.



Wait, are you, Nachtritter? Or are you talking about sending bounty hunters after them?

Absol197
2011-06-06, 06:54 PM
Also, it feels like cheating to change the world based on the alignment of the party. If the small town had no guards and needed the PCs to protect them from orcs I am not suddenly going to stock the town with level 12 fighters just because the PCs are evil, to me that reeks of an MMO.

I took the liberty of statting up a sample, average town of each city type for you, with how many characters of which levels are available, as well as what kind of/how valuable of magical items should be available in a town of that type. Here we go:

Sample Thorp (Pop. 65)
People:
Commoners: Lv. 7, Lv. 3 (x2); Lv. 1 (x32)
Experts: Lv. 4, Lv. 2 (x2); Lv. 1 (x5)
Fighters: Lv. 1
Rogues: Lv. 1
Warriors: Lv. 2; Lv. 1 (x3)
Children: Lv. 1 (x15)
Items:
Base Value Items:
<50 gp (1d4–1 copies)
Armor/Shields: 50 gp or less
Potions: shillelagh (50)
Scrolls: Depends on number of spells on scroll:
0—yes
1st—maybe
Weapons: 50 gp or less.
Wondrous Items: universal solvent (50)

Minor Magic Items: 1d4
Sample Hamlet (Pop. 260)
People:
Adepts: Lv. 1
Bards: Lv. 1
Clerics: Lv. 1
Commoners: Lv. 8, Lv. 4 (x2), Lv. 2 (x4); Lv. 1 (x158)
Druids: Lv. 1
Experts: Lv. 5, Lv. 2 (x2); Lv. 1 (x9)
Fighters: Lv. 2, Lv. 1 (x2)
Rogues: Lv. 2, Lv. 1 (x2)
Warriors: Lv. 3; Lv. 1 (x10)
Children: Lv. 1 (x60)
Items:
Base Value Items:
<200 gp (1d4–1 copies)
<50 (1d6–1 copies)
Armor/Shields: Masterwork of 50 gp or less; normal of 200 gp or less.
Potions: bless weapon (100)
Scrolls: Depends on number of spells on scroll:
1st or lower—yes
2nd—maybe
Weapons: 200 gp or less
Wondrous Items: QFT fan (200)

Minor Magic Items: 1d6
Sample Village (Pop. 585)
People:
Adepts: Lv. 2; Lv. 1 (x4)
Aristocrats: Lv. 1 (x3)
Barbarians: Lv. 1
Bards: Lv. 2, Lv. 1 (x2)
Clerics: Lv. 2, Lv. 1 (x2)
Commoners: Lv. 9, Lv. 4 (x2), Lv. 2 (x4); Lv. 1 (x371)
Druids: Lv. 2, Lv. 1 (x2)
Experts: Lv. 6, Lv. 3 (x2); Lv. 1 (x16)
Fighters: Lv. 3, Lv. 1 (x2)
Monks: Lv. 1
Rogues: Lv. 3, Lv. 1 (x2)
Sorcerers: Lv. 1
Warriors: Lv. 4, Lv. 2 (x2); Lv. 1 (x24)
Wizards: Lv. 1
Children: Lv. 1 (x135)
Items:
Base Value Items:
<500 gp (1d4–1 copies)
<200 gp (1d6–1 copies)
<50 gp (1d8–1 copies)
Armor/Shields: Masterwork 350 gp or less; normal 500 gp or less.
Potions: undetectable alignment (300)
Scrolls: Depends on number of spells on scroll:
2nd or lower—yes
3rd—maybe
Wands: light (375)
Weapons: Masterwork 200 gp or less; normal 500 gp or less.
Wondrous Items: QFT whip (500)

Minor Magic Items: 2d4
Medium Magic Items: 1d4
Sample Small Town (Pop. 1,300)
People:
Adepts: Lv. 3; Lv. 1 (x7)
Aristocrats: Lv. 2; Lv. 1 (x7)
Barbarians: Lv. 2, Lv. 1 (x2)
Bards: Lv. 3, Lv. 1 (x2)
Clerics: Lv. 3, Lv. 1 (x2)
Commoners: Lv. 10, Lv. 5 (x2), Lv. 2 (x4); Lv. 1 (x852)
Druids: Lv. 3, Lv. 1 (x2)
Experts: Lv. 7, Lv. 3 (x2); Lv. 1 (x32)
Fighters: Lv. 4, Lv. 2 (x2), Lv. 1 (x4)
Monks: Lv. 2, Lv. 1 (x2)
Paladins: Lv. 1
Rangers: Lv. 1
Rogues: Lv. 4, Lv. 2 (x2), Lv. 1 (x4)
Sorcerers: Lv. 2, Lv. 1 (x2)
Warriors: Lv. 5, Lv. 2 (x2); Lv. 1 (x50)
Wizards: Lv. 2, Lv. 1 (x2)
Children: Lv. 1 (x300)
Items:
Base Value Items:
<1,000 gp (1d4–1 copies)
<500 gp (1d6–1 copies)
<200 gp (1d8–1 copies)
<50 gp (1d10–1 copies)
Armor/Shields: Masterwork 850 gp or less; normal 1,000 gp or less.
Potions: shield of faith (+5) (900)
Scrolls: Depends on number of spell on scroll:
2nd or lower—yes.
3rd or 4th—maybe.
Wands: summon monster I (750)
Weapons: Masterwork
Wondrous Items:
hand of the mage (900)

Minor Magic Items: 3d4
Medium Magic Items: 1d6
Sample Large Town (Pop. 3,250)
People:
Adepts: Lv. 6, Lv. 3 (x2); Lv. 1 (x16)
Aristocrats: Lv. 5, Lv. 2 (x2); Lv. 1 (x16)
Barbarians: Lv. 5, Lv. 2 (x2), Lv. 1 (x4)
Bards: Lv. 6, Lv. 3 (x2), Lv. 1 (x4)
Clerics: Lv. 6, Lv. 3 (x2), Lv. 1 (x4)
Commoners: Lv. 13, Lv. 6 (x2), Lv. 3 (x4); Lv. 1 (x 2,159)
Druids: Lv. 6, Lv. 3 (x2), Lv. 1 (x4)
Experts: Lv. 10, Lv. 5 (x2), Lv. 2 (x4); Lv. 1 (x79)
Fighters: Lv. 7, Lv. 3 (x2), Lv. 1 (x4)
Monks: Lv. 5, Lv. 2 (x2), Lv. 1 (x4)
Paladins: Lv. 4, Lv. 2 (x2), Lv. 1 (x4)
Rangers: Lv. 4, Lv. 2 (x2), Lv. 1 (x4)
Rogues: Lv. 7, Lv. 3 (x2), Lv. 1 (x4)
Sorcerers: Lv. 5, Lv. 2 (x2), Lv. 1 (x4)
Warriors: Lv. 8, Lv. 4 (x2), Lv. 2 (x4); Lv. 1 (x126)
Wizards: Lv. 5, Lv. 2 (x2), Lv. 1 (x4)
Children: Lv. 1 (x750)
Items:
Base Value Items:
<2,000 gp (1d4–1 copies)
<1,000 gp (1d6–1 copies)
<500 gp (1d8–1 copies)
<200 gp (1d10–1 copies)
<50 gp (1d12–1 copies)
Armor/shields: +1 armor/shield (1,000+base)
Potions: magic vestment (+3) (1,800)
Rings: Protection +1 (2,000)
Scrolls: Depends on number of spells on scroll:
3rd or lower—yes
4th to 6th—maybe
Wands: summon monster I (750)
Weapons: Masterwork
Wondrous:
horn of fog (2,000)

Minor Magic Items: 3d4
Medium Magic Items: 2d4
Major magic items: 1d4
Sample Small City (Pop. 6,900)
People:
Adepts: Lv. 10, Lv. 9, Lv. 5 (x2), Lv. 4 (x2), Lv. 2 (x8); Lv. 1 (x53)
Aristocrats: Lv. 9, Lv. 8, Lv. 4 (x4), Lv. 2 (x8); Lv. 1 (x54)
Barbarians: Lv. 9, Lv. 8, Lv. 4 (x4), Lv. s (x8), Lv. 1 (x16)
Bards: Lv. 10, Lv. 9, Lv. 5 (x2), Lv. 4 (x2), Lv. 2 (x8), Lv. 1 (x16)
Clerics: Lv. 10, Lv. 9, Lv. 5 (x2), Lv. 4 (x2), Lv. 2 (x8), Lv. 1 (x16)
Commoners: Lv. 16 (x2), Lv. 8 (x4), Lv. 4 (x8), Lv. 2 (x16); Lv. 1 (x5,041)
Druids: Lv. 10, Lv. 9, Lv. 5 (x2), Lv. 4 (x2), Lv. 2 (x8), Lv. 1 (x16)
Experts: Lv. 14, Lv. 13, Lv. 7 (x2), Lv. 6 (x2), Lv. 3 (x8); Lv. 1 (x181)
Fighters: Lv. 11, Lv. 10, Lv. 5 (x4), Lv. 2 (x8), Lv. 1 (x16)
Monks: Lv. 9, Lv. 8, Lv. 4 (x4), Lv. 2 (x8), Lv. 1 (x16)
Paladins: Lv. 8, Lv. 7, Lv. 4 (x2), Lv. 3 (x2), Lv. 2 (x4), Lv. 1 (x12)
Rangers: Lv. 8, Lv. 7, Lv. 4 (x2), Lv. 3 (x2), Lv. 2 (x4), Lv. 1 (x12)
Rogues: Lv. 11, Lv. 10, Lv. 5 (x4), Lv. 2 (x8), Lv. 1 (x16)
Sorcerers: Lv. 9, Lv. 8, Lv. 4 (x4), Lv. 2 (x8), Lv. 1 (x16)
Warriors: Lv. 11 (x2), Lv. 5 (x4), Lv. 2 (x8); Lv. 1 (x291)
Wizards: Lv. 9, Lv. 8, Lv. 4 (x4), Lv. 2 (x8), Lv. 1 (x16)
Children: Lv. 1 (x900)
Items:
Base Value Items:
<4,000 gp (1d4–1 copies)
<2,000 gp (1d6–1 copies)
<1,000 gp (1d8–1 copies)
<500 gp (1d10–1 copies)
<200 gp (1d12–1 copies)
<50 gp (1d12 copies)
Armor/shield: +1 armor/shield (1,000+base)
Potions: All (max 3,000)
Rings: Counterspells (4,000)
Rods: Lesser metamagic (enlarge/extend/silent) (3,000)
Scrolls: Depends on number of spells on scroll:
4th or lower—yes
5th or higher—maybe
Wands: magic missile (5th) (3,750)
Weapons: +1 weapon (2,000+base)
Wondrous:
Stone salve (4,000)

Minor Magic Items: 4d4
Medium Magic Items: 3d4
Major Magic Items: 1d6
Sample Large City (Pop. 16,250)
People:
Adepts: Lv. 13, Lv. 12 (x2), Lv. 6 (x6), Lv. 3 (x12); Lv. 1 (x82)
Aristocrats: Lv. 12, Lv. 11 (x2), Lv. 6 (x2), Lv. 5 (x4), Lv. 3 (x4), Lv. 2 (x8); Lv. 1 (x82)
Barbarians: Lv. 12, Lv. 11 (x2), Lv. 6 (x2), Lv. 5 (x4), Lv. 3 (x4), Lv. 2 (x8), Lv. 1 (x24)
Bards: Lv. 13, Lv. 12 (x2), Lv. 6 (x6), Lv. 3 (x12), Lv. 1 (x24)
Clerics: Lv. 13, Lv. 12 (x2), Lv. 6 (x6), Lv. 3 (x12), Lv. 1 (x24)
Commoners: Lv. 19 (x3), Lv. 9 (x6), Lv. 4 (x12), Lv. 2 (x24); Lv. 1 (x10,681)
Druids: Lv. 13, Lv. 12 (x2), Lv. 6 (x6), Lv. 3 (x12), Lv. 1 (x24)
Experts: Lv. 17, Lv. 16 (x2), Lv. 8 (x6), Lv. 4 (x12), Lv. 2 (x24); Lv. 1 (x499)
Fighters: Lv. 14, Lv. 13 (x2), Lv. 7 (x2), Lv. 6 (x4), Lv. 3 (x12), Lv. 1 (x24)
Monks: Lv. 12, Lv. 11 (x2), Lv. 6 (x2), Lv. 5 (x4), Lv. 3 (x4), Lv. 2 (x8), Lv. 1 (x24)
Paladins: Lv. 11, Lv. 10 (x2), Lv. 5 (x6), Lv. 2 (x12), Lv. 1 (x24)
Rangers: Lv. 11, Lv. 10 (x2), Lv. 5 (x6), Lv. 2 (x12), Lv. 1 (x24)
Rogues: Lv. 14, Lv. 13 (x2), Lv. 7 (x2), Lv. 6 (x4), Lv. 3 (x12), Lv. 1 (x24)
Sorcerers: Lv. 12, Lv. 11 (x2), Lv. 6 (x2), Lv. 5 (x4), Lv. 3 (x12), Lv. 1 (x24)
Warriors: Lv. 14 (x3), Lv. 7 (x6), Lv. 3 (x12); Lv. 1 (x608)
Wizards: Lv. 12, Lv. 11 (x2), Lv. 6 (x2), Lv. 5 (x4), Lv. 3 (x12), Lv. 1 (x24)
Children: Lv. 1 (x3,750)
Items:
Base Value Items:
<8,000 gp (1d4–1 copies)
<4,000 gp (1d6–1 copies)
<2,000 gp (1d8–1 copies)
<1,000 gp (1d10–1 copies)
<500 gp (1d12–1 copies)
<200 gp (1d12 copies)
<50 gp (2d6 copies)
Armor/Shields: +2 armor/shield (4,000+base)
Potions: All (max 3,000)
Rings: Protection +2 (8,000)
Rods: Immovable (5,000)
Scrolls: Depends on number of spells on scroll:
5th or lower—yes
6th or higher—maybe
Wands: magic missile (9th) (6,750)
Weapon: +1 weapon (2,000+base)
Wondrous Items:
Minor: All.
Medium: scarlet and blue ioun stone (8,000)

Minor Magic Items: 4d4
Medium Magic Items: 3d4
Major Magic Items: 2d4
Sample Metropolis (Pop. 65,000)
People:
Adepts: Lv. 16 (x2), Lv. 15 (x2), Lv. 8 (x4), Lv. 7 (x4), Lv. 4 (x8), Lv. 3 (x8), Lv. 2 (x16); Lv. 1 (x264)
Aristocrats: Lv. 15 (x2), Lv. 14 (x2), Lv. 7 (x8), Lv. 3 (x16); Lv. 1 (x265)
Barbarians: Lv. 15 (x2), Lv. 14 (x2), Lv. 7 (x8), Lv. 3 (x16), Lv. 1 (x32)
Bards: Lv. 16 (x2), Lv. 15 (x2), Lv. 8 (x4), Lv. 7 (x4), Lv. 4 (x8), Lv. 3 (x8), Lv. 2 (x16), Lv. 1 (x32)
Clerics: Lv. 16 (x2), Lv. 15 (x2), Lv. 8 (x4), Lv. 7 (x4), Lv. 4 (x8), Lv. 3 (x8), Lv. 2 (x16), Lv. 1 (x32)
Commoners: Lv. 20 (x4), Lv. 10 (x8), Lv. 5 (x16), Lv. 2 (x32); Lv. 1 (x44,166)
Druids: Lv. 16 (x2), Lv. 15 (x2), Lv. 8 (x4), Lv. 7 (x4), Lv. 4 (x8), Lv. 3 (x8), Lv. 2 (x16), Lv. 1 (x32)
Experts: Lv. 20 (x2), Lv. 19 (x2), Lv. 10 (x4), Lv. 9 (x4), Lv. 5 (x8), Lv. 4 (x8), Lv. 2 (x32); Lv. 1 (x1,518)
Fighters: Lv. 17 (x2), Lv. 16 (x2), Lv. 8 (x8), Lv. 4 (x16), Lv. 2 (x32), Lv. 1 (x64)
Monks: Lv. 15 (x2), Lv. 14 (x2), Lv. 7 (x8), Lv. 3 (x16); Lv. 1 (x32)
Paladins: Lv. 14 (x2), Lv. 13 (x2), Lv. 7 (x4), Lv. 6 (x4), Lv. 3 (x16), Lv. 1 (x32)
Rangers: Lv. 14 (x2), Lv. 13 (x2), Lv. 7 (x4), Lv. 6 (x4), Lv. 3 (x16), Lv. 1 (x32)
Rogues: Lv. 17 (x2), Lv. 16 (x2), Lv. 8 (x8), Lv. 4 (x16), Lv. 2 (x32), Lv. 1 (x64)
Sorcerers: Lv. 15 (x2), Lv. 14 (x2), Lv. 7 (x8), Lv. 3 (x16); Lv. 1 (x32)
Warriors: Lv. 17 (x4), Lv. 8 (x8), Lv. 4 (x16), Lv. 2 (x32); Lv. 1 (x2,487)
Wizards: Lv. 15 (x2), Lv. 14 (x2), Lv. 7 (x8), Lv. 3 (x16); Lv. 1 (x32)
Children: Lv. 1 (x15,000)
Items:
Base Value Items:
<16,000 gp (1d4–1 copies)
<8,000 gp (1d6–1 copies)
<4,000 gp (1d8–1 copies)
<2,000 gp (1d10–1 copies)
<1,000 gp (1d12–1 copies)
<500 gp (1d12 copies)
<200 gp (2d6 copies)
<50 gp (3d6 copies)
(If also a Minor item, +1)
Armor/shield: +3 armor/shield (9,000+base)
Potions: All (max 3,000)
Rings: Walter walking (15,000)
Rods: Flame extinguishing (15,000)
Scrolls: Depends on number of spells on scroll:
6th or lower—yes
7th or higher—maybe
Wands: searing light (6th) (13,500)
Weapon: +2 weapon (8,000+base)
Wondrous Items:
Minor: All
Medium: scabbard of keen edges (16,000)

Minor Magic Items: All
Medium Magic Items: 4d4
Major Magic Items: 3d4

How to read these city write-ups:
"People" is pretty straight forward: the number of people in the city, and what class and level they are.

"Items" denotes what value and type of items can be found in a city of that size. The entry "Base Value Items" indicates what you should roll to determine how many of a specific type of item can be found in the city, based on its price (in a small city, for example, there are 1d6-1 of an item that is worth 2,000 or less). If the item is non-magical, multiply the result by 2. If you get a result of 0, then that item can't currently be found in that city.
Below that entry is a list of the various types of magical items (potions, scrolls, etc.), and a type of item in that category. The listed item is the most expensive version of that category of magical item that would normally be possible to find in that city. That item, and all less expensive items of that type, have a possibility of being found. So if I'm in a Thorp, and I want a potion of cure light wounds (50 gp), I have a possibility of finding it: there are 1d4-1 of them in town. If the DM rolls a 1 on the die, that means there are 0, and I'm out of luck. Anything more expensive should only be available if you, the DM, have a very good reason for it (for another example, in a metropolis, a rod of flame extinguishing and all cheaper rods [DMG pg. 234] can be found, but not usually anything more expensive).

Finally, there's a couple lines for Minor, Medium, and Major magic items. This is the number of additonal Minor, Medium, and Major magic items that are available in the city, not limited by price as the other items are. Typically, I roll these randomly, but you can select them specifically, if you wish. However, keep in mind that such items follow this chart:
{table=head]Minor|Medium|Major|Item Type
2%|5%|5%|Armor
2%|5%|5%|Shields
5%|10%|10%|Weapons
35%|10%|5%|Potions
2%|10%|10%|Rings
--|10%|10%|Rods
35%|15%|10%|Scrolls
--|3%|20%|Staves
10%|15%|5%|Wands
9%|17%|20%|Wondrous Items[/table]

Most, if not all, of the stuff above is straight from the DMG.

So, there are a couple of things to note: until you get to at least a small city, you'd be lucky to find even a +1 weapon (and you're not even guarenteed to find a simple potion of cure light wounds!). And at this size of city, level 10-11 NPCs, while not common, are definitely not too incredibly uncommon, either. And even in a metropolis, the biggest cities int he world, you're still lucky if you can find a sword that is stronger than +2!

Also note that, at every level of city, but especially at the lower city sizes, not every magic item will be conveniently located in one "MAGIC MART!!!" They're likely spread around in the possession of multiple merchants, or even not for sale. The merchants who are selling them, especially at the Small City scale or lower, treat each and every one as a rare valuable (which, of course, it is), and likely don't even mention they have it unless asked. They simply display their non-magical wears.

From the sound of your campaign (what little we have to go on), I'm thinking your party is currently in probably a village, at the biggest. So you would be correct: there's not going to be 12th-level fighters standing guard over the shops. But if you look, there's not really any magic of note in the shops, either. There's no magic items to stand guard over!

Bovine Colonel
2011-06-06, 07:26 PM
Direct them to the couple of threads you've posted recently about them?

Autolykos
2011-06-06, 07:36 PM
Well, nothing says they should always get the treasure after the encounter. It can work the other way around: They picked the amount of treasure, and get the encounter appropriate for it. If they bit off more than they could chew - their choice. As long as your players know you're doing it this way, it's perfectly fair.
Obviously you've never played Shadowrun. There most player characters are expected to be some shade of evil, but they usually behave when dealing with their fixer - because losing connections and reputation will leave you with bad-paying and risky jobs, and if a lot of guys want to kill you, one of them might know something about explosives and where you live.

cattoy
2011-06-06, 08:20 PM
Since you continue to tolerate the presence of CN pcs in the hands of smacktards, you get what you're dealing with.

You're the DM. You're the only one with the authority to lay down the law and shut down the troublemakers, either by restricting their alignment options or by banning them from the game. If you can't do either, then you're going to have to deal with this for as long as it takes for the problem players to grow out of this phase, assuming they ever do.

Talakeal
2011-06-06, 08:32 PM
Since you continue to tolerate the presence of CN pcs in the hands of smacktards, you get what you're dealing with.

You're the DM. You're the only one with the authority to lay down the law and shut down the troublemakers, either by restricting their alignment options or by banning them from the game. If you can't do either, then you're going to have to deal with this for as long as it takes for the problem players to grow out of this phase, assuming they ever do.

Alignment is just a couple letters on a character sheet. Problem players will still act out, they just use slippery slope arguments to explain that they are no worse than anyone else, you are just picking on them unfairly because they don't lie about.

For example, I steal because it feels good for me to hurt people, you give to the poor because it makes you feel good to help people, we are both acting out of equally selfish motives and you are choosing to discriminate against me for it.

Or, you admitted that in (insert impossible situation where you have to do an evil act to prevent an even worse act and there is no other option) you would do the same thing as I am doing, so why are you giving me a hard time for it?

dsmiles
2011-06-06, 08:43 PM
Again, you need to stop letting these players walk all over you. Take the shouts of "Killer DM!" Seriously, take them. They'll either shape up or quit. And again, either way, the gaming community will be better off for it. We don't need smacktards ruining the fun for the rest of us.

Nachtritter
2011-06-06, 08:56 PM
These guys attack anyone who tells them what to do. I think there was one instance when a nature spirit or something told them not to harm the forest, so the wizard proceeded to use fireballs on the forest. So if they thought they were being ordered around by their employer, they would attack him.

Edit:
I'm pretty sure he was.



Wait, are you, Nachtritter? Or are you talking about sending bounty hunters after them?

I plead the fifth, on the grounds it could incriminate me.

cattoy
2011-06-06, 09:13 PM
Alignment is just a couple letters on a character sheet. Problem players will still act out, they just use slippery slope arguments to explain that they are no worse than anyone else, you are just picking on them unfairly because they don't lie about.

For example, I steal because it feels good for me to hurt people, you give to the poor because it makes you feel good to help people, we are both acting out of equally selfish motives and you are choosing to discriminate against me for it.

Or, you admitted that in (insert impossible situation where you have to do an evil act to prevent an even worse act and there is no other option) you would do the same thing as I am doing, so why are you giving me a hard time for it?

That's why I said either restrict alignment options OR ban the problem player(s). If forcing them to behave works, then problem solved. If it doesn't, then kick them out.

TriForce
2011-06-06, 09:37 PM
personally, i got the feeling these players of yours are simply toying with you. they push as far as they can go, and as soon as you try to do something against it, they cry "killer GM" or whatever, so you will feel guilty and let them do whatever they want.

this is a problem that goes beyond just mechanics or the way you created your world. these friends are literally abusing your kindness.

while i understand you dont want to piss of your friends just becouse of a game, you should also realize that if they get angry with you just becouse you put some actual opposition against them, their friendship probably isnt worth much, besides, what is the challange in a game if everything goes their way?

a few important things:
1: dont limit their freedom, players should be able to ATTEMPT anything they want. there should be things in the world they are simply not strong enough for ofc, and you should give them a fair warning ingame that they wont be able to handle it. if they still try to so it however, rip them to shreds. put a mage tower somewhere, with a warning that inside are a lot of mages and at least one archmage. if they got any braincells, they should realize that a archmage is pretty high lvl, and shouldnt be messed with, if they still try, use whatever spell you want. imprisonment, multiple summon monster 9, power word spells, symbol spells, whatever kills them the most efficiently. if they complain, just explain that you warned them, and thats that.

2: be consistant. if a shopkeeper is lvl 3, dont make him easyer or harder without a lot of time passing. likewise, if a monster or opponent is a lvl- appropriate encounter, dont make him easyer just becouse otherwise players will die. the death of a character is a normal thing in dnd, and while a normal campaign shouldnt have a death each session, your group obviously isnt normal.

3: reward risks and smart thinking, punish stupidity and lazyness
basically, if your players overcome something you didnt expect they were able, or if they solve a puzzle/mystery in a origional way, reward them for it. it will make them feel good about their capabilities. likewise, if they pick a fight with someone obviously more powerful without anything to back them up, make them regret it. for instance, in a campaign of mine, a player (halforc) walked into a bar with 90% orcs in it. he decided it would be fun to have a bar fight, so he picks a fight with one of the orcs. theplayer however, was not as god in hand to hand combat as he tought, and was almost knocked out. at that moment, he decided he wanted to heal himself ( he only got subdual damage) and used a ability that drained 2 hp from everyone in 30ft... as in lethal damage, to restore his HP. meaning he pissed of EVERYONE in the entire bar. by that time i informed him he needed to make a new character, since the parts of him that left the bar were not even recognizable as humanoid anymore.

4: i also advise you to tell your players that if they want a nw character (or need a new character ofc) it will be one lvl lower then their current one. that will prevent players from being too careless with their characters

all in all, id say your best bet is to stop being afraid of your party. anyone who is rich enough to buy and sell powerful magic is rich enough to hire someone or something to prevent those magic items or spells from being stolen. dont make everything impossible to steal, just make sure they cant steal stuff too far above their lvl yet. pay attention to how much they try to hide their actions, if they do that well, not much problems, if they dont hide them at all, the world will turn against them, and they will find out there are a lot more powerful people out there then them

Arbitrarious
2011-06-06, 10:03 PM
As a long time DM the question becomes, are you having fun? If it seems like work, stop. Your players obviously don't appreciate the time and effort you put into running the game and only concerned with themselves. Politely tell them that you no longer enjoy running games for them and take a break. If they complain or ask why simply tell them that you feel they are being manipulative and disrespectful. There are people who are my friends who I don't play D&D with. They are not mutual by nature.

Don't punish yourself for their poor roleplaying.

Talakeal
2011-06-06, 10:52 PM
Here is the thing though, I am still having fun. I genuinely enjoy the game, and even when players are being "problem players" I still am enjoying the game as a whole.

The thing is, something about that way I run games or about me as a person just rubs players the wrong way. I have had so many people show up for a couple of games and then just stop coming.
I remember in high school one player who was for a time my best friend and had been in my group for several years got a chance to play in someone else's game, and afterwards he told "you know, it wasn't until I got a chance to play with a competent DM that I realized just how bad you were at it". He never played with me again after that, even though the other guy got bored and quit playing after a couple sessions to the best of my knowledge.

So I treasure the players I have, I am really not able to find other players, so it is either bad gaming or no gaming, and for me I prefer bad gaming. Generally when I have a problem I am not mad at the players, the players are mad at me because I did what I felt was a fair response to the situation, and it pissed them off.
I take both the setting and the rules very seriously, which is apparently a problem for players.
Normally I stick by RAW unless it is an obvious typo or mistake, and use in game consequences to deal with things rather than "rule 0" or "fiat", however I also don't alter the setting to make it easier for the players when they are doing something blatently stupid or illegal (either according to the rules or the ingame authorities).

Hiro Protagonest
2011-06-06, 10:59 PM
Hm, tell us how you DM. Maybe set up a PbP on the forums with the people on this thread playing in it.

Whybird
2011-06-07, 06:25 AM
What Erikun said about giving them party-appropriate quests. It sounds like the kind of thing they want to do is knock over towns and steal their stuff, so focus your campaign less on the heroic quests they want to go on, and more about the amazingly valuable items of power that these towns possess, and how these things are guarded, and the effect they're having on the lives of the people they encounter

So maybe in the next village they walk into, everybody flees into their houses and one villager, trembling and grovelling in the dust, approaches them to say "Oh gods -- it's you. Please don't hurt us! We're just trying to live our lives! And I have valuable information for you -- if you spare our village I'll tell you everything!" Then they learn that all the people they've pissed off have got so desperate that the King has done a deal with the Nine Hells for protection: peasants are being ritually sacrificed in exchange for demonic allies to protect the cities they turned over, and more and more the demons are taking charge -- maybe even planning to make the kingdom into a permanent outpost of Hell. That way, they're in the situation where every merchant they rob is a victory for the other side. They can still go around being magnificent bastards, but they're facing increasing patrols of hellspawn (level-appropriate, naturally) and a dwindling supply of people who are willing to be around them for fear of what they'll do.

stainboy
2011-06-07, 08:04 AM
An item I want but can't afford is in a shop, I will kill the merchant and take it.
I will mind control a merchant into giving me goods for free.
I will bluff a merchant into buying my worthless items for a fortune as I tell him they are actually artifacts and beat his sense motive by 25.


D&D breaks if players kill or charm the Magic Mart vendors, nothing you can do about that. I suggest not having Magic Marts anymore. (You could also force players to handle shopping in abstract - you buy items OOC straight off a list and never interact with the merchant IC - but that's dumb and terrible.)



I rescue the princess, and then tell the king that he better double his reward if he wants to get his daughter back alive.
...
Bad guys stole treasure X that we are hired to get back, we will kill the bad guys and keep it.
...
Sell captured enemies into slavery.


Use the WBL rules. Just hand out slightly less treasure to compensate.

FWIW older editions had explicit rules for selling dragons into slavery. Selling normal humanoids as slaves seems like a lot of trouble for limited profit. (I'm guessing about the price of a slave based on the daily wages of a common laborer).



Rob a bank.


A bank vault is a dungeon that contains treasure. Design the dungeon to be appropriate for the amount of treasure. Cracking open a well-protected vault and then killing the town guard is exactly the game expects from adventurers.



Killing friendly quest givers and NPCs and looting them, preferably just after they have given us the location of the bad guy (and his loot).
Hiring powerful henchmen or talking good NPCs into helping them, and then letting them die / get badly wounded in battle and take their stuff.


These are tricky. Just don't have anyone with a WBL go anywhere alone with the PCs. Either they don't trust the PCs or they don't trust "adventurers". For questgivers, just don't have them wear all their loot to the meeting.

Sewercop
2011-06-07, 08:43 AM
I say it again, wish economy.

But what lvl are your guys on? And what classes have they chosen?

If you have one good optimizer and the rest is average char builders it might be as easy as the optimizer just acting out of boredom.
Many problems have easy solutions.

If they get away with killing people, they will continue to do it.
You dont need to put loads of guards by fiat in a village to kill them.
If they kill everyone in a torp, just have one resurected as an investigation for the local duke.

Then make him send out a call for arms against marauding hobos stabbing people in the face for fun.

stainboy
2011-06-07, 08:54 AM
That too, although I'm concerned that Takaleal's players might read the Economicon and take it as permission to loop wishes. The Three Economies would be my preferred solution with less ridiculous players. I think Takaleal might be better off with the default 3.5 solutions.

Sewercop
2011-06-07, 09:04 AM
That too, although I'm concerned that Takaleal's players might read the Economicon and take it as permission to loop wishes. The Three Economies would be my preferred solution with less ridiculous players. I think Takaleal might be better off with the default 3.5 solutions.

He do not have to tell them about the wish economy, and heavens forbid tell them how to loop wishes.
He just need to implement that merchants are not willing to part with items for gold. It costs exp after all.

And if they still wanna kill the lvl x wizboys simulacrum... Then let the turtled wizard open a can of ambush whoop and paralize snap and walk in and grab theyre favorite gear as payment. Just let em live.

You think demanding more for a princess is evil? Take the best piece of gear from everyone, and walk away. Thats evil. what goes around comes around.

Magesmiley
2011-06-07, 09:20 AM
Ok, couple of problems.

First, if I send the law after them, they will cry killer GM unless it is a level appropriate encounter, in which case I am just encouraging their behavior by sending them simple chunks of loot and xp in the form of guards.

Second, even if I dock their WBL from the next dungeon, it doesnt matter because they dont care because they don't actually need the gold to buy things, they will just find someone who would sell them the item if they had the gold and take the item by force.

Third, even if the high end shop keepers are immune to mind control or strong enough to resist violece (which also gets cries of killer DM) they can still rob a dozen lower end shop keepers and then trade their stolen goods to the high end shop keepers who I cant possibly justify having that sort of protection.

Fourth, have you seen the examples of bluffs that beat sense motive by +20? Convincing someone that they don't need to identify the +25 sword of a thousand truths because they can trust a guy like you who has never told a lie in his life is pretty run of the mill, and besides they are letting the sword go for a steal at only half a million gold pieces, you don't want that offer to pass them by!

These aren't that big of problems. For problem one, I'll point you to Table 3-2 (Encounter Difficulty) on page 49 of the DMG. See what the bottom Show that to the players if they complain about killer GM. 15% of encounters SHOULD be very difficult and 5% SHOULD be overwhelming. Its up to the players to figure out which ones they are. If the PCs are as notorious as you indicate, you're entirely justified in using an EL 5+ levels higher than the PCs (maybe some bounty hunters out to collect all the rewards on them). You could even turn this into a series of encounters with the players constantly dodging those after them.

If you're feeling nice, drop some hints involving wanted posters. Heck, if you want to see sparks fly, put up wanted posters offering a reward for them which also offers amnesty for all crimes for whomever brings them in. If the price is high enough, you'll have the players consider whacking each other and looting them of their stuff and collecting the reward.

Another thing to consider is to have your NPCs behave intelligently and research the PC's capabilities. Have them watch the PCs and hit them when they're down. A good time is right after the casters have depleted their spells.

Or set things up so that the PCs are constantly harassed by low-level encounters so that they can't recover. Then, when they want to hide and recover, have the NPCs turn them away. A lot of low-level encounters that keep chewing up resources can really hurt.

I personally think the local thieves' guild is the solution to too much loot. They have to keep their money somewhere, either that or it is on them. They want an encounter of their level, fine. Make an NPC of the EL that is totally statted out to be hidden to sneak up and rob them. If you've got the books, a whisper gnome (Races of Stone) with the dark template (Tome of Magic) should work just fine. A hide bonus in the twenties (combined with the hide in plain sight ability) and a move silently in the high teens is feasible at EL 2 for this character, so imagine what it is at the PC's level with bonuses from gear and whatnot. Also give him a hideously high Sleight of Hand. Problem solved. If you're feeling nice, drop rumors about a 'ghost' who robs rich travellers, leaving no trace.

As to the problem of them looting stuff from sellers, make them take other skill rolls, such as Gather Information, to even locate a seller. You're entirely justified in stating that if the players want to play out these encounters with shop keepers, they'll have to play things out in their entirety.

Another notion that comes to mind is to have some shopkeepers scam them with bogus or even cursed items. The cursed items (DMG 274) in particular could be fun, especially if the NPC has a bunch of cursed items for sale. The PCs come in, see all the goodies, kill the shopkeeper and take everything. Pick some of the items that aren't immediately obvously cursed: Amulet of Inescapable Location, Armor of Arrow Attraction, Bag of Devouring, Boots of Dancing, Bracers of Defenselessness, Gauntlets of Fumbling, Periapt of Foul Rotting, Robe of Vermin, Berserking Sword, etc.

For problem three, refer to the solution to one, above. For added fun, have the bounty hunters set up an ambush and really let them have it.

For problem 4, how high is this bonus? Keep in mind that there are TWO factors determining the modifier, not one. Believability is one, the second is going against self-interest, nature, personality, orders, or the like. Looking at the bluff examples on page 68 of the PHB, you'll note that the examples include the word "or". My reading is that you're justified in applying a modifier for EACH of these factors. If they give an unbelievable bluff, give a +20. If it puts their business at risk, tack on another +10.

You'll also note that in the skill description of Bluff that the target only reacts as you wish for a short time (usually 1 round or less). Plenty of time for the shopkeeper to realize he's been taken and then say no.

And just because a PC is a phenomenal bluffer, doesn't mean that he's any good as a negotiater. Most shopkeepers are pretty shrewd bargainers. Just because he thinks something is worth a particular price, doesn't mean that he's going to pay that for it. Ask the player how his Profession (merchant) skill is for negotiating a price.

valadil
2011-06-07, 09:32 AM
If they keep their gains small, I let them get away with it. If they take too much, they run into problems.

Let's say a level 1 guy has 5000 gold on him. Way above WBL because I can't be bothered to consult WBL. And let's also say he's intent on spending it. Someone will notice this pushover with way more money than he can handle. If the player used questionable means to obtain that much wealth, someone else in the world is just as morally questionable. They'll notice the PC and see an easy target. Think about it this way: what would your level 2 character do if he heard that the kobold living by the drainage gate outside of town accidentally acquired +3 armor? That's easy pickings. You'd go straight after that kobold before somebody else got his shiny new armor.

Now, the player's other choice is to not spend the money. At least not all at once. He'll buy a +1 sword instead of a +2 sword. He still shows that he has more money than he should but not enough to draw attention. And he has more money banked than WBL suggests, but that's okay if he can't spend it.

If you were playing a modern game and the players robbed a bank, they'd end up with a whole lot of marked bills they can't use. Sure they can buy groceries, but if they try to buy a car with a stack of sequential hundred dollar bills, they'll run into trouble. Wealth above WBL works similarly in my book. The coins aren't exactly marked, but if it's obvious you have more money than you should, somebody notices. The end result is that the players can't spend all that extra wealth they have and so the stuff that they can't spend isn't really wealth and doesn't count against WBL. Yes, they'll be able to afford every inn they reach, but so what? They earned the right to not sleep in the stables just this once.

Of course there's also the industrious thief, who spreads out the spending of his wealth. If you've got a PC who intends to buy a couple gems here, travel for a few days, get a portrait made over there, etc, then just run with it. That player will bump into so many potential plot hooks he won't have time to spend his wealth. By the time he reaches the third city and is looking to buy a nice piece of jewelry, he'll be two levels higher than he was when he started. The extra money won't be as significant by this point.

dsmiles
2011-06-07, 09:33 AM
Another notion that comes to mind is to have some shopkeepers scam them with bogus or even cursed items. The cursed items (DMG 274) in particular could be fun, especially if the NPC has a bunch of cursed items for sale. The PCs come in, see all the goodies, kill the shopkeeper and take everything. Pick some of the items that aren't immediately obvously cursed: Amulet of Inescapable Location, Armor of Arrow Attraction, Bag of Devouring, Boots of Dancing, Bracers of Defenselessness, Gauntlets of Fumbling, Periapt of Foul Rotting, Robe of Vermin, Berserking Sword, etc....Helm of Opposite Alignment, Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity, Loadstone...

Falin
2011-06-07, 09:35 AM
Even if they do read it, it really isn't a thing. The whole point of the wish economy is that by the time you get to it all the things you can wish for aren't all that great. A +3 sword costs 18,000 gold, which means you can't buy it with gold, nor can you wish for it. You can wish up as many +2 swords as you want, but not +3 swords. And the same goes for any items that are above 15,000 gold in worth, magic, or otherwise. They just aren’t available for gold, you need a more high end currency for them, like hope, or souls, or some other form of planer currency.

Sewercop
2011-06-07, 09:38 AM
Every gamer now that you identify every single item.

Besides, if any believe that cursed items are a good soultion... Hah.
You want less violence? dont curse items and make em paranoid on top of murder hobo.

Earthwalker
2011-06-07, 09:56 AM
1) An item I want but can't afford is in a shop, I will kill the merchant and take it.
The item is for sale in the shop, but it is held in extradimensional space. Most shops are part of a larger guild, which has an interest in keeping its shop managers safe, crimes against the guild will be punished. It should be simple to keep a magic shop keeper safe while a transaction happens. Only one person in the shop for a trade over 500 gp, Security arranged in the form of seerious people that can fight back. Sure they can rob a load of ladders from the hardware store easy, not so much magic shops.
2) I will mind control a merchant into giving me goods for free.
A simple spell can prevent mind control of this level. It should be simple for a magic shop to set up protection against this.
3) I will bluff a merchant into buying my worthless items for a fortune as I tell him they are actually artifacts and beat his sense motive by 25.
All items bought are examined by an expert, this expert looks the item over away from the seller. If they don’t agree to this, the shop keeper doesn’t buy it.
4) I rescue the princess, and then tell the king that he better double his reward if he wants to get his daughter back alive.
The king is paying 10k gp for his daughter, one group betrays him and keeps her. Does he 1) give up, b) use the money to hire people to kill the group. (More to the point don’t give these quests to evil people)
5) Rob a bank.
Perfect, this is a dungeon crawl in reverese. Get in and get the money, then spend all your time escaping the guard, the thieves guild and anyone else who wants some of the loot.
6) Bad guys stole treasure X that we are hired to get back, we will kill the bad guys and keep it.
Fine, don’t hire them for this work if they are going to do this. At least don’t pay them up front.
7) Killing friendly quest givers and NPCs and looting them, preferably just after they have given us the location of the bad guy (and his loot).
Again let them, make the friendly quest givers have not a lot of value. Or be of a level of power that they can at least take a couple of PCs with them. After all once this happens a few times people will know not to deal with the PCs.
8) Hiring powerful henchmen or talking good NPCs into helping them, and then letting them die / get badly wounded in battle and take their stuff.
Word will spread and people will not be willing to help them. Also the people they allowed to die can have friends that want an explanation. What do they do when someone turns up asking for their brothers sword back ?
9) Sell captured enemies into slavery.
Not a lot wrong with this, of course how do they find slavers in the first place and how can they trust slavers ?

Oracle_Hunter
2011-06-07, 10:11 AM
Here is the thing though, I am still having fun. I genuinely enjoy the game, and even when players are being "problem players" I still am enjoying the game as a whole.

The thing is, something about that way I run games or about me as a person just rubs players the wrong way. I have had so many people show up for a couple of games and then just stop coming.
I remember in high school one player who was for a time my best friend and had been in my group for several years got a chance to play in someone else's game, and afterwards he told "you know, it wasn't until I got a chance to play with a competent DM that I realized just how bad you were at it". He never played with me again after that, even though the other guy got bored and quit playing after a couple sessions to the best of my knowledge.

So I treasure the players I have, I am really not able to find other players, so it is either bad gaming or no gaming, and for me I prefer bad gaming. Generally when I have a problem I am not mad at the players, the players are mad at me because I did what I felt was a fair response to the situation, and it pissed them off.
This is a downward spiral. Get off of it! :smalleek:

What we have here is the following spiral:
(1) You are a "bad DM" (whatever that means) so some of your Players leave.

(2) You cater to the ones who stay, because you don't want to be without a game.

(3) The Players who stay are jerks who walk all over you and make you unhappy with your game.

(4) You continue to cater to the Jerks, which turns away better Players
Stop it! If you want to have better Players, you need to be a better DM. Being a better DM means finding Players who aren't jerks, running games for them, and asking them what they liked and didn't like about your game. Cater to the Players you want to have and kick out the Jerks who wreck your games.

Your former "best friend" was a bit of a jerk leaving the way he did, but damnit, maybe he had a point. If you still talk with him and trust his opinion, find out what DM he played with and ask to play in (or just sit-in) with that game. Talk to that DM's Players and find out what they enjoy about that game. Befriend a "good DM" and see if he can give you tips.

Whatever you do, you need to stop playing with Jerks and find out how to run games that are fun for people you want to play with.

dsmiles
2011-06-07, 10:18 AM
Stuff.
AMEN! 10 Characters.

Traab
2011-06-07, 10:29 AM
Its possible that one of your problems as "a bad dm" is your inability to rein in your players and keep their excesses under control. This is what it all comes down to. You need to either put your foot down and put in game reasons why what they do wont end well for them, or get used to being a doormat whose only use is to setup their latest splurge of annoying activities.

Well, I suppose there is one other option. Accept their behavior and from now on delight in giving them exactly what they want. Setup scenarios with bossy npcs they can torture, kill, and do the exact opposite of what they wanted, give them fabulously wealthy and stupid merchants with +12 swords of god slaying sitting in open cabinets who enjoy getting shiny rocks in exchange for their worthless metal things. Line their paths with cute kittens and puppies for them to kick, or force feed to other bossy npc types.

Absol197
2011-06-07, 12:48 PM
*Lots of good advice*

What Oracle_Hunter said. If someone told me I was a bad DM, the first thing I would do is ask why. In fact, even though I've been told by my players that I'm a pretty good DM, I'm still looking for ways to impeove my style.

You can improve yourself. One of the best ways, like Oracle_Hunter suggested, is to sit in on or play in other games, especially games run by people who your friends say are "Good DMs." Most everyone is willing to help others get better at what is a difficult skill, so find some toher DMs and compare notes.

If you don't mind me getting off on a philosophical tangent, my master at my Shaolin school told me this, and I hold myself to it at all times: "Nothing is every static, it is either growing or decaying. If you're not growing, you are decaying. Which is it?"

kyoryu
2011-06-07, 01:25 PM
1) Is everyone having fun? If they are, what's the big deal? And yes, you as a DM count as part of everyone. But, there's no "right" and "wrong" way to play. Just different ways for different people. So, to rephrase the problem, you want different things out of your game than the group does.

2) Are you willing to stop playing rather than play the group does? You'd better be, because there's every chance in the world that your group will choose to not play rather than play the way you want to. Ultimately, as a social dynamic, that's the ultimatum you have. It may be easier to start with a new group if you want a vastly different playstyle. If there are complaints about your DM ability, maybe play in a few games, find DMs you like, and analyze what they do.

3) *If* you've decided you're willing to blow up the group rather than play the way they've been playing, you can proceed with trying to modify the playstyle of the group. The first thing you need to do is understand what a Killer DM is. A Killer DM is not a DM that lets players blow themselves up as a consequence of their own actions - a Killer DM is one that throws impossible challenges at players in such a way that they cannot be avoided.

If you tell the players there's a huge, ancient dragon on top of a mountain, and they decided to trek up there and attack it and (predictably) die, that's not being a Killer DM. However, if the dragon decides to fly down to the village and attack the PCs out of the blue, with no provocation, and no chance of escape, that *is* being a Killer DM. If the characters knowingly kill the dragon's lost human love, and the dragon retaliates, it's not being a Killer DM. If you make a random NPC the dragon's lost love, with no way for the players to suspect this or find out, and then the dragon retaliates, then it IS being a Killer DM.

In other words, in reasonable games, players are responsible for their actions. They're not responsible, however, for things they were railroaded into.

If your group is as entitled as you portray them as, having them deal with the consequences of their actions will likely break up the group. That's okay. Just be fair with the game.

4) Make sure the players know that they aren't the strongest thing in the world. How you do this is up to you, but it's important that they realize this. This sets up a certain level of context - if players insist on behaving as antisocial jackwads, there are forces greater than them that may come and beat on them. This doesn't have to be done in a hostile fashion - the wizard NPC that sees their most powerful, uber spell and offhandedly remarks, "Oh, yes, I remember when I learned that little trick" can work, as well as a friendly duel with a master at arms. So can hearing someone brag about how they single-handedly defeated three of something that the party could barely defeat one of.

5) Think about realistic depictions of NPCs. Shops will have defenses appropriate to both the amount of cash/goods they have, as well as the perceived danger. If attacks go up, shops will either increase their defenses, move, or just go out of business. "Yeah, the magic item racket was good, but every single one is getting blowed up by these yahoos!" Shops may band together for mutual defense. Also, you won't find Ye Olde Artifact Shoppe in the dirt-poor farming village. If it exists, it'll be in the capital - where there will be more, and more highly trained, guards.

6) Think about realistic consequences for actions. Eventually you'll get known, and wanted. At which point nobody will want to deal with you. If it's a world with illusion magic, people will *know* that and start to become suspicious of strangers with lots of money when they know that a magic-using lunatic is blowing shops up after buying stuff. At some point, every town will round up the guard to prevent them from entering. So they blow up the guard if they're that powerful... what would the king do about this group of psychos blowing up his towns? What would you do if you were the king? Send in the army, or some specialists (SEAL Team 6?). And you don't respond to such threats with sufficient, "level-appropriate" force. You respond with overwhelming, decisive force.

7) EXPLAIN THIS TO THE PLAYERS. Again, we get back to player agency. Whether it's done in-game ("Rumor has it that the merchant guild is getting sick of their members getting wasted. They're increasing their defenses, and looking for bounty hunters. I hear they're interviewing some really nasty types...") or OOC doesn't matter. What needs to happen is that players understand that there will be consequences for player actions, and that the consequences may not be level-appropriate, but will be world-appropriate.

8) Offer other ways to be "evil". If it's an evil campaign, players need to feel they can be evil. Offer them ways to be evil (subterfuge, working for an assassin's guild, etc.) that make sense in your game world and provide outlets for evil without them assuming that every town is a candy store for raping and pillaging.

9) STICK TO YOUR GUNS. If players whine about the consequences, explain what happened ("you ticked off the merchant guild. They hired assassins. Expensive ones, since you were taking 100k gp of loot off of their stores, they figured it was a good investment"), reiterate the warnings they were given, IC and OOC ("look, you heard the rumors that they were looking into hiring bounty hunters. You heard the rumors of who they were hiring, and what nasty pieces of work they were"), and remind them that this was a consequence of their actions, not DM railroading ("Yes, you're playing an evil character. You've had plenty of opportunities to do other evil things rather than raiding the richest cities in the kingdom. You had enough gold to buy the item you needed, and the merchant offered to give it to you in exchange for a small favor - which was ASSASSINATING SOMEONE, which would be right up your alley as an EVIL CHARACTER.")

Of course, this only works if you've made sure you've laid the groundwork for this speech. If you haven't given the players sufficient information to know the likely consequences, or have railroaded them into the actions, sticking to your guns won't work, and the players will have an honest complaint about the situation.

And even then, they may quit. This is, again, why being willing to not play is an important step.

TriForce
2011-06-07, 01:53 PM
Here is the thing though, I am still having fun. I genuinely enjoy the game, and even when players are being "problem players" I still am enjoying the game as a whole.

The thing is, something about that way I run games or about me as a person just rubs players the wrong way. I have had so many people show up for a couple of games and then just stop coming.
I remember in high school one player who was for a time my best friend and had been in my group for several years got a chance to play in someone else's game, and afterwards he told "you know, it wasn't until I got a chance to play with a competent DM that I realized just how bad you were at it". He never played with me again after that, even though the other guy got bored and quit playing after a couple sessions to the best of my knowledge.

So I treasure the players I have, I am really not able to find other players, so it is either bad gaming or no gaming, and for me I prefer bad gaming. Generally when I have a problem I am not mad at the players, the players are mad at me because I did what I felt was a fair response to the situation, and it pissed them off.
I take both the setting and the rules very seriously, which is apparently a problem for players.
Normally I stick by RAW unless it is an obvious typo or mistake, and use in game consequences to deal with things rather than "rule 0" or "fiat", however I also don't alter the setting to make it easier for the players when they are doing something blatently stupid or illegal (either according to the rules or the ingame authorities).

basically, you dont want to put the player characters at risk, becouse your afraid that the players will stop playing. if this is really how you feel, i suggest you stop playing DnD with that group and simply suggest to play some mortal kombat or something with them. your intentions are good, but if you lead a game with that attitude, your not really being a good DM, no offence intended ofcourse. the fact that you post these questions on this forum suggests to me you dont really like the way the campaign is going. if im wrong about this, please ignore this post, but i can tell you that this problem will not be solved by RAW rules, its a matter ofg attitude, both from you as your players, and that means as a DM, you sometimes need to punish stupid things players do

Magesmiley
2011-06-07, 03:01 PM
Here is the thing though, I am still having fun. I genuinely enjoy the game, and even when players are being "problem players" I still am enjoying the game as a whole.

The thing is, something about that way I run games or about me as a person just rubs players the wrong way. I have had so many people show up for a couple of games and then just stop coming.
I remember in high school one player who was for a time my best friend and had been in my group for several years got a chance to play in someone else's game, and afterwards he told "you know, it wasn't until I got a chance to play with a competent DM that I realized just how bad you were at it". He never played with me again after that, even though the other guy got bored and quit playing after a couple sessions to the best of my knowledge.

So I treasure the players I have, I am really not able to find other players, so it is either bad gaming or no gaming, and for me I prefer bad gaming. Generally when I have a problem I am not mad at the players, the players are mad at me because I did what I felt was a fair response to the situation, and it pissed them off.
I take both the setting and the rules very seriously, which is apparently a problem for players.
Normally I stick by RAW unless it is an obvious typo or mistake, and use in game consequences to deal with things rather than "rule 0" or "fiat", however I also don't alter the setting to make it easier for the players when they are doing something blatently stupid or illegal (either according to the rules or the ingame authorities).

If you're having fun, I guess everything is good. Something to think about is if there might be a way to make things more fun.

My observation here is that you might have more fun as a player, rather than as a DM. You also can learn a lot from playing in someone else's game too. Playing with a more skilled group of players tends to raise your own skills. Look around for groups seeking out players, many local game shops have groups that play at the store.

I've been DMing for over 25 years now, and I still don't have it all down. I occasionally play in other games and sometimes I learn things that I'm doing wrong or that I could use to improve how I run the games I DM.

One other thing that you might not have considered: is it possible that it is one or more of your regular players that drove away some of the other players over the years?

Talakeal
2011-06-07, 07:10 PM
I currently am not gaming with my regular group as I am away for college right now, and I want to decide if it is worth playing online with my old group and / or finding a new group. In either case I am trying to figure out the solutions to the problems which has plagued my game for the last decade.

When people get mad at me over the game or leave the game I ask why. If they give me an answer 90% of the time it is because my game is too hard, they call me either a killer DM or say I am pulling grudge monsters or super NPCs out of my butt to railroad them.
The other times the answer is less tangible, but usually involves me taking the game too "seriously". That I try and follow the rules when they aren't obviously broken, but will amend them when they are. Likewise I follow the plot, and try and keep the pace of the game moving.
Here are some specific examples that might shed some more light on the issue:

When said former best friend left my game I asked what was so much better. As an example, he said that he was attacked by gargoyles, and the DM let him 1 shot them with no save by casting "Transmute Stone to Mud" on them, which he felt rewarded his creativity. He (correctly) said that I would have said "No, stone to mud doesn't affect living creatures, and even if it did it would allow a save. Besides, Gargoyles aren't actually animated statues, they just have a hide that resembles stone".

Another player told me that his favorite game was almost a total sand box where the party just ran around doing whatever they wanted. However, what they wanted to do was mess with random people, for example polymorphing a random farmer's wife into an orc, teleporting the princess out of her clothes during a public appearance, casting hold portal on the door to the general store, casting suggestion on the barmaid to make her think she is an owl bear, casting enlarge person on a random child playing in a field, etc.
He said that the DM would actually role-play out all the people involved, allowing for hours of hilarity, where as I would have said "ok, given a brief description of what happened and then try and get them on to a "real" adventure as quickly as possible.

The third example is a game I played in during junior college. The game was just crazy. All the Players had 10x WBL, he allowed all prestige classes, feats, and races, the world was filled with high CR monsters, most with multiple templates, most NPCs had class levels in the mid teens, and almost all named NPCs were epic level. Frequent Artifacts and plot items everywhere, we had epic loot at level 10 or so, he would assign arbitrarily high skill check and save DCs (like close to 100 at mid level). He would give monsters, magic items, and locations, crazy abilities not found in the rules.
Generally the players got away with everything, although sometimes he screwed us in the weirdest ways.
For example one time the fighter got hit with a custom spell that lowered his maximum HP to 1 for the rest of the dungeon, and I got hit with a spell that removed all magic from me for 24 hours, (this includes items, spell casting, and friendly spells cast on me by others) which couldn't be removed. Also, when I took the craft item feat he ruled that I could not craft custom items not in the book and that even those in the book cost double market price in materials rather than half.
All in all the game was just CRAZY, and I couldn't stand it, leaving after a couple months because neither the setting nor the rules had any logic or consistency to them. HOWEVER, he always had close to a dozen players in his group, most seeming to have a great time, while my "by the book" game could only manage 3 or 4 players at a time and most only last a few sessions.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-06-07, 07:25 PM
Sounds like it is in fact you who is bad. Bad at choosing good players. Those things you just described were all bad on the players' parts (except the third one, which was the DM).

So you should probably try finding a new group, or start being tough on your current group.

Talakeal
2011-06-07, 07:32 PM
Sounds like it is in fact you who is bad. Bad at choosing good players. Those things you just described were all bad on the players' parts (except the third one, which was the DM).

So you should probably try finding a new group, or start being tough on your current group.

Maybe so, but in all three of those examples the playrs were having fun, something which is often, but not always, missing from my games.

erikun
2011-06-07, 07:36 PM
As an example, he said that he was attacked by gargoyles, and the DM let him 1 shot them with no save by casting "Transmute Stone to Mud" on them, which he felt rewarded his creativity.

Another player told me that his favorite game was almost a total sand box where the party just ran around doing whatever they wanted.

The third example is a game I played in during junior college. All the Players had 10x WBL, he allowed all prestige classes, feats, and races, the world was filled with high CR monsters, most with multiple templates, most NPCs had class levels in the mid teens, and almost all named NPCs were epic level.
All in all the game was just CRAZY, and I couldn't stand it
It sounds like the problem, then, is a large difference between the kind of game you want to play and the kind of game they want to play. They want to play crazy, over-the-top Monty Haul games, and you want to play lower-key dungeon crawls.

Probably the most sanity-retaining idea will be to find a group that is interested in your style of play (either new players or join an existing one) or change your playstyle to what the players want.

It sounds like your current players want an open sandbox, anything goes, no consequence kind of world. If you are okay with that, and with making stuff up as you go along, then you might try changing your DM style. If that doesn't make you comfortable, then you might try looking around at other RPG groups for a bit. Actually, it might be good to ask your current table what they thing of your DM style - they're the ones sticking around, after all.

Also, do you really need 12 players at your table? Do you think you could handle that many? If not, then you shouldn't compare your table to the "successfulness" of other DMs.

(Also, I sense a very strong teenage/preteen vibe from your gaming group. Most people get less interested in +20 Fireballchucker swords at fifth level as they get older.)

Talakeal
2011-06-07, 07:43 PM
I try sand box games, they don't work. Maybe its because I am bad at improving, but usually it involves people wandering around bored because they are not noticing or interested in any of my hooks and don't have the motivation to make their own, let alone agree on them.
In my games the more structure the better, I only get accused of railroading when the PCs want to do something evil or munchkiny. For example one time I guy wanted to take several years of from adventuring to research new spells and craft items, and I told him that if he did that the rest of the world would keep moving while he did so and the villain would likely have conquered the world by that point without the heroes to stop him. He got very mad.

You know I actually find the opposite to be true. In elementary school and middle school our games were very old school, low magic, low power games. t wasn't until I got to college that everyone wanted to be over the top epic level anime characters and super heroes.

dsmiles
2011-06-07, 07:45 PM
I concur with Swiftmongoose. You need to find players that are interested in plot, if you like plot. They're out there, I'm one of 'em. My players are interested in abridged plot. As in, they like plot in their games, but not a plot-heavy game. Now, I'm as averse to railroading as the next guy, but I do like a central plot to drive the game. I think I'd enjoy that part of your game.

However, I am a huge advocate of rewarding creative thinking. (I probably would have allowed the gargoyles a save, but I would have allowed the use of the spell.) I am also a huge advocate of The Rule of Cool. If a player comes up with something off-the-wall but that sounds like it would work, I allow it. Creative problem solving is the central framework of my games. I don't think a strict adherence to RAW is very appealing.

That being said, you need to find the right kinds of players for your style of game. If you can't, you need to adapt your style to the players you can get. But letting players walk all over you is bad. They'll get the idea that they can walk all over every game they play in, and then they'll become total problem players, and end up without a game to play in. Rein them in. Seriously.

Talakeal
2011-06-07, 08:04 PM
However, I am a huge advocate of rewarding creative thinking. (I probably would have allowed the gargoyles a save, but I would have allowed the use of the spell.) I am also a huge advocate of The Rule of Cool. If a player comes up with something off-the-wall but that sounds like it would work, I allow it. Creative problem solving is the central framework of my games. I don't think a strict adherence to RAW is very appealing.

That being said, you need to find the right kinds of players for your style of game. If you can't, you need to adapt your style to the players you can get. But letting players walk all over you is bad. They'll get the idea that they can walk all over every game they play in, and then they'll become total problem players, and end up without a game to play in. Rein them in. Seriously.


I personally hate the rule of cool, and maybe it is that sort of disconnect with my players that is the root of the problem. To me creativity and cleverness come from working within the rules and logic to solve problems, not to simply narrate it away.

Cool stuff works in books and movies. It doesn't really work so well in games or in real life.

It is cool when the Power Rangers pull out their mega sword and one shot the monster, but it is lazy and repetitive storytelling when every fight ends that why, but honestly, if you had such a sword, why wouldn't you use it every fight, hell, why do the power rangers wait 20 minutes before pulling it out rather than just using it at the start of every fight?



If you aren't going by RAW or common sense, in my mind, you have no common ground to walk on.
To me it rules out cleverness, and where do you draw the line? If not constrained by rules or logic I can personally craft an "I win" button in any situation through good storytelling, but then we don't really have a game, we just have a bunch of guys trying to sit around topping each other's tall tales.

In the case of the gargoyles, that would be creating precedent, you now either have to allow Stone to Mud as a very effective Sod spell against most constructs and all creatures with the earth sub type, in which case it is no longer creative it is merely optimal, or create an inconsistent and unfair world where things work sometimes but not other times at the DM's whim. And I do know that waffling on rules calls is something my players absolutely HATE, and even do a nasal imitation of me that resembles George Mcfly from Back to the Future being unable to make up his mind or stand his ground.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-06-07, 08:11 PM
I personally hate the rule of cool, and maybe it is that sort of disconnect with my players that is the root of the problem. To me creativity and cleverness come from working within the rules and logic to solve problems, not to simply narrate it away.So the only players you reward are heavy optimizers? Real fair. I'm a fan of rule of cool and miscellaneous bonuses myself.
Cool stuff works in books and movies. It doesn't really work so well in games or in real life.

It is cool when the Power Rangers pull out their mega sword and one shot the monster, but it is lazy and repetitive storytelling when every fight ends that why, but honestly, if you had such a sword, why wouldn't you use it every fight, hell, why do the power rangers wait 20 minutes before pulling it out rather than just using it at the start of every fight?This is because it's rule of plot, not rule of cool. And it's a bad plot, IMO.
If you aren't going by RAW or common sense, in my mind, you have no common ground to walk on.
To me it rules out cleverness, and where do you draw the line? If not constrained by rules or logic I can personally craft an "I win" button in any situation through good storytelling, but then we don't really have a game, we just have a bunch of guys trying to sit around topping each other's tall tales.No, you have a bunch of guys that are working their brains to come up with creative things so they can get a bonus.
In the case of the gargoyles, that would be creating precedent, you now either have to allow Stone to Mud as a very effective Sod spell against most constructs and all creatures with the earth sub type, in which case it is no longer creative it is merely optimal, or create an inconsistent and unfair world where things work sometimes but not other times at the DM's whim. And I do know that waffling on rules calls is something my players absolutely HATE, and even do a nasal imitation of me that resembles George Mcfly from Back to the Future being unable to make up his mind or stand his ground.

Stone to mud shouldn't be an SoD, I agree with this, because these creatures magic that holds the stone in a certain position should hold the mud in the dame position, so it's just a cosmetic change.

Talakeal
2011-06-07, 08:21 PM
I absolutely can and do apply bonuses for creative or entertaining plans. That isn't against the rules either, the DMG tells you to give situational bonuses to rolls. If a player comes up with a good plan I will definitely give them a huge bonus, something which some players have complained about because they are not creative, quick thinking, or possessing their knowledge / social skills their characters should have and feel they are being punished for it.

When I hear the rule of cool trumps RAW and real world logic I imagine players wanting to do stuff that is either nonsense or gives them a clearly unfair advantage by RAW. For example, in the crazy campaign I mentioned earlier, he had a rule that you could cripply your opponents simply by declaring it, for example "I cut off his leg!" shouted during a damage roll means the opponent is immobilized. However, after the first orc shouted "He cuts off your head!" and 1 shot a PC on a normal attack we had a gentlemens agreement not to use it anymore.

I imagine players wanting to have bullets bounce of them like superman, or double jumping like ninja gaiden, or bicycle kicking like Liu Kang, all look cool on the screen, but make no sense in real life and give unfair advantages in the game. But if someone wants to kick over a flaming brazier on their opponent, or swing on a chandelier, or use their staff of the arch mage as a pole vault, then I am all for it and will give them a bonus for it.
Also, I do invoke the opposite on rules lawyers. For example in a previous thread a guy was talking about how his barbarian shows off his badassness by sticking daggers up to the hilt into his own eye / throat / heart, belly flopping off of tall towers onto concrete, and using hot lava as a sauna because he knows that he has enough HP that such activities can't actually kill him by RAW. I told him that in my campaign I would consider him Coup De Graceing himself in those situations, and was told that I was a DM who ignored the RAW to screw PCs through FIAT as a result.

In the case of stone to mud used on a creature made of animate rock (which gargoyles are not as far as I can tell) I wouldn't count it as a SoD, but I probably would give them a major penalty to their natural AC, making it a save or suck roughly appropriate to other spells of its level but only useful in certain circumstances.

Bovine Colonel
2011-06-07, 08:52 PM
Y'know how sometimes in the Finding Players (Recruitment) forum a request crops up for a real-life group?

Hiro Protagonest
2011-06-07, 08:55 PM
Y'know how sometimes in the Finding Players (Recruitment) forum a request crops up for a real-life group?

You could also look for people in your time zone, that are on at the same time as you, so there's less of a chance of the PbP game dying.

erikun
2011-06-07, 08:59 PM
For example one time I guy wanted to take several years of from adventuring to research new spells and craft items, and I told him that if he did that the rest of the world would keep moving while he did so and the villain would likely have conquered the world by that point without the heroes to stop him. He got very mad.
Why would you deny this? Some campaigns assume months, years, or even decades between gaming sessions. If the rest of the party wants to leave on adventure, then say, "You can study, but the rest of the party is planning on leaving. If you stay here, then they are going on an adventure without you."

On the other hand, if the entire party wants to take a few years off - and they aren't directly in the middle of a "Big Bad Destroy World in 90 Days" quest - then why not let them?


In the case of the gargoyles, that would be creating precedent, you now either have to allow Stone to Mud as a very effective Sod spell against most constructs and all creatures with the earth sub type
Stone to Mud: You turn their hardened stone skin to mud. The loose their natural AC (or half their natural AC) and in the gargoyle's case, can't fly anymore.

It is a creative solution to a creative use of the spell. No, it isn't the automatic win that the player expected, but it is something that is helpful and that they can use in the future if they want.

That's how I would rule it, if my players wanted it to affect the game like that. (Some players prefer RAW interpretations.)

Talakeal
2011-06-07, 09:39 PM
Why would you deny this? Some campaigns assume months, years, or even decades between gaming sessions. If the rest of the party wants to leave on adventure, then say, "You can study, but the rest of the party is planning on leaving. If you stay here, then they are going on an adventure without you."

On the other hand, if the entire party wants to take a few years off - and they aren't directly in the middle of a "Big Bad Destroy World in 90 Days" quest - then why not let them?


Stone to Mud: You turn their hardened stone skin to mud. The loose their natural AC (or half their natural AC) and in the gargoyle's case, can't fly anymore.

It is a creative solution to a creative use of the spell. No, it isn't the automatic win that the player expected, but it is something that is helpful and that they can use in the future if they want.

That's how I would rule it, if my players wanted it to affect the game like that. (Some players prefer RAW interpretations.)


That's exactly what happened. I said he could take of a few years, but neither the other PCs nor the Villains are just going to freeze in time while he did so, which he said was railroading.

And if gargoyles are made of stone (they aren't in my campaign world, the monster manuals never say for sure one way or another) I would also allow the spell to remove their natural armor as I already said. However, you do have to be careful with allowing "Object" spells to allow living creatures, or else players will want to start doing it to everything. Why not shrink object the red dragon?

dsmiles
2011-06-07, 09:52 PM
Why not shrink object the red dragon?
In 27 years of playing DnD, I've never met a player that would try that. But stone to mud or stone to flesh on a gargoyle (which are made of stone in my campaign world)? That's a perfectly viable option. Sure it's not RAW, but that's just a guideline to attempt (and fail, IMO) to provide a working, balanced system in which to play a collaborative storytelling wargame.

erikun
2011-06-07, 09:54 PM
That's exactly what happened. I said he could take of a few years, but neither the other PCs nor the Villains are just going to freeze in time while he did so, which he said was railroading.
Then he has a problem with the other players, not the DM. :smalltongue: Ask the other players if they want to stop, and if they don't then just continue on without him. If he complains, point out that the other PCs want to do stuff while he reads for three years.


And if gargoyles are made of stone (they aren't in my campaign world, the monster manuals never say for sure one way or another) I would also allow the spell to remove their natural armor as I already said. However, you do have to be careful with allowing "Object" spells to allow living creatures, or else players will want to start doing it to everything. Why not shrink object the red dragon?
Try the "Yes, and" (or "Yes, but") philosophy. Try to think up a way that it could work, but not necessarily as useful as the players want.

Yes, you can Stone to Mud the gargoyles, but it isn't an instant kill.

Yes, you can Fireball the fire elemental for damage, but it only does minimal damage, and it spawns a bunch of tiny fire elementals as well.

Yes, you can Shrink Object on the dragon, but now you have a tiny dragon with a high AC bonus that hasn't lost any of its stats. And is upset.

Of course, there will be times when things absolutely don't make sense - you can't start a fire by pouring water on a log - but try to make things possible. It sounds like your players are more interested in having fun than maintaining consistency.

Shadowknight12
2011-06-07, 10:02 PM
"How do you keep evil / chaotic PCs to WBL?"

You grab the heaviest book you own, you hit them over the head as hard as you can, and then you alter their character sheets to reflect the wealth they should have at their current level. When they come to, you pretend nothing happened and laugh at the silliness of their accusations.

TriForce
2011-06-08, 06:57 AM
ah look, now i see why you have less then succesful campaigns. basically you want to play by RAW and logic, getting to the story as soon as possible and following it as much as you can, while your players play by rule of cool and improvising, not caring about plot at all.

i cant say one way is better then the other, personally im mostly a RAW person, but i allow funny things sometimes and usually put no time pressure on my players unless situational. a good DM in my opinion, will manage to please both type of players. however, this is insanly hard, especially if you have both type of players in the same group. for your group to really work, it seems to me you need to get your players to get a bit more serieus, and you need to be willing to throw RAW out of the window every now and then.

as for your examples, i cant really tell you what would be best, just what i would have done.

stone to mud on gargoyles: in my settings, gargoyles just have a skins as hard as stone, not made from actual stone, so the spell would just fail.

sandbox game: yes i would also have expanded on the effects their practical jokes would have had, however, i also would have made it harder for them to keep doing that as they did more. if my players want to mess with people thats fine, however if they mess too much they will get themselves into trouble. id probably do something like let one of them who is careless get captured, and making it so the rest of the party needs to rescue him

as for the crazy game, i like the use of new abilities, my opinion is that things like that will make your world feel more unique, however, the craft item feat ruling is bull**** in my opinion, as is the increadible overpoweredness of all the players and monsters. its DnD we play, not dragonball Z.

TopherKersting
2011-06-08, 07:49 AM
An item I want but can't afford is in a shop, I will kill the merchant and take it.
I will mind control a merchant into giving me goods for free.
I will bluff a merchant into buying my worthless items for a fortune as I tell him they are actually artifacts and beat his sense motive by 25.

Any merchant in my world with anything worth anything is a retired adventurer. His thief friend is running the tavern next door, his soldier friend now runs the bakery across the street. Combat starts, he yells, PCs are soon overwhelmed. Merchants should be fairly resistant to mind control--they negotiate many times each day--and their sense motive should be extremely high.


I rescue the princess, and then tell the king that he better double his reward if he wants to get his daughter back alive.

As others have said, pay the ransom, then pay the bounty.


Rob a bank.

No bank should be level appropriate. If the party can rob it, the loot should be insignificant. Besides, most banks don't have a large amount of cash on hand, as most of their resources are lent to their borrowers.


Bad guys stole treasure X that we are hired to get back, we will kill the bad guys and keep it.

Again, pay the bounty, while noting that the bounty hunters can keep all the party's loot except for treasure X.


Killing friendly quest givers and NPCs and looting them, preferably just after they have given us the location of the bad guy (and his loot).

Aw, the friendly quest givers you killed gave you bad or incomplete information? (Such as The Good, the Bad and the Ugly: They have the name of the cemetery but not the name on the grave where the treasure is buried.)


Hiring powerful henchmen or talking good NPCs into helping them, and then letting them die / get badly wounded in battle and take their stuff.

Powerful henchmen have powerful friends with ways to make them talk.


Sell captured enemies into slavery.

Saturate the slave market so that it isn't profitable, or make sure the new slaves escape in a week, providing shiny recycled enemies for the PCs.

----------------

First and foremost, you are missing one huge thing:

There is a big difference between giving the players what they want and giving the players what they think they want.

Most players think they want Monty Haul. What they really want is a game where they earn every gold piece and every magic item, where every battle is hard fought and where every victory is worth retelling. One moment they'll be laughing until it hurts, the next they'll be checking to see if they have a blank character sheet ready.

Another useful thing for draining wealth is making PCs pay for training to get new abilities. He can't just "ding" and get Florentine style, he needs to find a Florentine master and negotiate an education.

Finally, others have said this but it bears repeating: Level-inappropriate encounters are a staple of any good GM's repertoire. I use them regularly in two types of situations:


The party is going in a direction I haven't planned, so I need them to turn around and get back to the plot.
The party needs to learn when to fight, when to run, and when to talk. If they know every opponent can be beaten, they'll never talk and they'll never run.


Topher

Oracle_Hunter
2011-06-08, 01:16 PM
You know I actually find the opposite to be true. In elementary school and middle school our games were very old school, low magic, low power games. t wasn't until I got to college that everyone wanted to be over the top epic level anime characters and super heroes.
You... might want to try changing systems. It seems like the 3.5 Players you have at your disposal are simply incompatible with the style of game you want to run. Perhaps if you ran a more story-oriented (or rules-light) system, you'd attract a different class of Players.

Mouse Guard will be the easiest transition for you, since it is still mechanically dense but with mechanics that focus on characterization and story. If you want to practice your DMing and improvisation a few quick games of Mountain Witch might help fill the void.

kyoryu
2011-06-08, 01:34 PM
I try sand box games, they don't work. Maybe its because I am bad at improving, but usually it involves people wandering around bored because they are not noticing or interested in any of my hooks and don't have the motivation to make their own, let alone agree on them.

Sandbox games require work for them to work well. If you have "quest hooks", you're veering away from sandbox play to begin with, and towards more of an amusement part paradigm.

The way to make sandbox games work is two things, in my experience:

1) The world goes on without the characters
2) Find out what motivates the characters, and give them ways to go get that

Talakeal
2011-06-08, 04:09 PM
You... might want to try changing systems. It seems like the 3.5 Players you have at your disposal are simply incompatible with the style of game you want to run. Perhaps if you ran a more story-oriented (or rules-light) system, you'd attract a different class of Players.

Mouse Guard will be the easiest transition for you, since it is still mechanically dense but with mechanics that focus on characterization and story. If you want to practice your DMing and improvisation a few quick games of Mountain Witch might help fill the void.

Although I phrased my question in terms of D&D because that is what this board knows, that isn't the only game I play. I play white wolfs storyteller games just as much as D&D, and have played lots of other games, and these days I mostly play test my own system. The same problems keep cropping up regardless of system.

I really don't like games with rules that dictate the story. Although I haven't tried Mouse Guard I have played FATE, and just couldn't get the hang of it at all.



Sandbox games require work for them to work well. If you have "quest hooks", you're veering away from sandbox play to begin with, and towards more of an amusement park paradigm.

The way to make sandbox games work is two things, in my experience:

1) The world goes on without the characters
2) Find out what motivates the characters, and give them ways to go get that

I was not aware a sandbox worked like that, I thought it was more like an open video game like Fallout 3 or TeS. So you are saying I should have stuff, NPCs with plots and dungeons and stuff, I just shouldn't do anything to direct the PCs to them and hope they stumble over them on their own at the appropriate level to deal with it? No being sarcastic, genuinely curious here.

All the players ever seem to "want" is to amass as much magic and wealth as they can in the easiest way they can, which is usually scamming people out of money and then sitting in a library / workshop for years on end and then when they are the most powerful people in the world running around playing pranks on people who can't fight back. That doesn't seem like much of a story, and I can't imagine it is interesting for the actual role players at the table.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-06-08, 04:44 PM
Although I phrased my question in terms of D&D because that is what this board knows, that isn't the only game I play. I play white wolfs storyteller games just as much as D&D, and have played lots of other games, and these days I mostly play test my own system. The same problems keep cropping up regardless of system.
So... even when you're playing Hunter your Players want to play "over the top epic level anime characters and super heroes?" :smallconfused:

I dunno what to tell you then. If you won't play actual character-based systems (e.g. Mouse Guard, Mountain Witch, Bliss Stage) and any Player that shows up to one of your games wants to play some over-the-top character whether you're playing Exalted or Call of Cthulhu then there is literally nothing you can do. What I am hearing is a fundamental disconnect between your style of play and the style of play of every single Player on campus.

I must say that I am skeptical, but you clearly know your situation better than anyone else. Perhaps you should shelve your DMing books for awhile and see if you can't figure out what all these Players want from your games - and whether you'd be willing to provide it. Or take to the Internet, host a few games here. Hell, if nothing else you can get some quality feedback from the PbPers of the Playground and maybe get a better handle on your root problem.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-06-08, 04:55 PM
I think you should make the worst player in your group DM. If he complains he doesn't want to, then tell him that he can't call you a railroad DM if you're gonna make the plot continue if he wants to do something else, and that you are going to send guards of a level much higher than the PCs if he keeps stealing from people.

JonestheSpy
2011-06-08, 05:01 PM
I think "We're having fun" only gets you so far.

A group of people can declare that McDonlad's is great and insist on eating there every meal because it's what they enjoy most, but in the end they're still just stuffing their faces with cheapass junk food.

Make of that what you will.

Talakeal
2011-06-08, 05:07 PM
So... even when you're playing Hunter your Players want to play "over the top epic level anime characters and super heroes?" :smallconfused:

I dunno what to tell you then. If you won't play actual character-based systems (e.g. Mouse Guard, Mountain Witch, Bliss Stage) and any Player that shows up to one of your games wants to play some over-the-top character whether you're playing Exalted or Call of Cthulhu then there is literally nothing you can do. What I am hearing is a fundamental disconnect between your style of play and the style of play of every single Player on campus.

I must say that I am skeptical, but you clearly know your situation better than anyone else. Perhaps you should shelve your DMing books for awhile and see if you can't figure out what all these Players want from your games - and whether you'd be willing to provide it. Or take to the Internet, host a few games here. Hell, if nothing else you can get some quality feedback from the PbPers of the Playground and maybe get a better handle on your root problem.

This thread is quickly turning into my bringing up everything that is wrong with my life as a gamer. Trust me, I still have an overall positive experience despite all the problems, I am just responding honestly to all the people who respond to my problems with "find a new group / kick the guy out" by trying to address what problems I have.

I was never able to convince them to play hunter for exactly this reason. Normally they can never decide on any single supernatural, and so even if we are playing a specific game rather than just "world of darkness" at least one or two players always insisted on playing a different type of supernatural than the rest of the group.

Likewise I was never able to convince the group to play Call of Cthulhu because mages in that game aren't flashy enough and I have one player who won't play a non magic user in any game period because to him magic powers are the sole appeal of RPGs (which also ruled out the Aces and Eights campaign that we wanted to play).

As I said I don't have any experience playing story driven RPGs except a little Fate, however what I did have seemed to be completely antithetical to playing a character as I kept have to play "musical chairs", jumping out of my character's head to narrate what the story and characters, and the other players and GM kept taking control away from my character to tell the story when it was their turn. For all I know they were playing the game very wrong and not all systems are like that, but it has soured me on the concept.

I am not saying there is a disconnect between me and all the other players, I am just saying I have been unable to successfully recruit any new players since high school who have stuck around for more than a few weeks for whatever reason. I have never gotten any honest feedback as to why they are leaving, they usually just stop showing up or claim that RL issues are getting in the way. The only feedback I do get is when my regular players tell me how great another GM's game is going and that is what I have based my statements on.

I don't get a chance to PC very often, but when I do I don't normally have any problem with the GM's game unless it is really weird (like the 3.0 game I described earlier, but even that I probably would have stuck around in if my other RL friends hadn't dropped out).
In my experience players are overly hard on DMs and try and create problems when none exist. I do, however, have problems with other players when I PC, usually because I am not good at playing PvP games. For example one time the party fighter felt my hydrophobic rogue was a "useless coward" and threw her into a lake to draw out the monsters in it, almost killing me, so I backstabbed him in his sleep that night, or another time when the fighter felt me enchanter was "useless" when fighting mindless vermin so positioned the monsters so they could only attack me so that at least I would assist him by soaking up hits (he told me this is what he was doing), and as a response I mind controlled him into the front lines. In both cases the DM and other players only saw my behavior because it was aggressive rather than passive aggressive and I was kicked from the group.
Actually, know that I think about it, 90% of the time when I PC I am either kicked from the group for not taking crap from abusive PCs / NPCs or the GM simply gets bored and stops playing an otherwise great game.

I could try playing a PbP game if you think it would help, but I always hear stories of how terrible they are because it takes months to do a single encounter and people disappear for days on end with no explanation and often never return. I am also skeptical about any feedback I get because a lot of people on this forum, and the internet in general, are just flaming / trolling for the hell of it. Still, if you think there is some value we can talk.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-06-08, 05:13 PM
I could try playing a PbP game if you think it would help, but I always hear stories of how terrible they are because it takes months to do a single encounter and people disappear for days on end with no explanation and often never return. I am also skeptical about any feedback I get because a lot of people on this forum, and the internet in general, are just flaming / trolling for the hell of it. Still, if you think there is some value we can talk.

How do you know people on the forums are just trolling for the hell of it? Because I haven't seen a single person do that.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-06-08, 05:14 PM
This thread is quickly turning into my bringing up everything that is wrong with my life as a gamer. Trust me, I still have an overall positive experience despite all the problems, I am just responding honestly to all the people who respond to my problems with "find a new group / kick the guy out" by trying to address what problems I have.
The reason I'm pushing this point is because this is - what - the 5th or 6th thread you've started in which your Players are wrecking your game? This is not a series of one-offs; this is a systematic problem.


I could try playing a PbP game if you think it would help, but I always hear stories of how terrible they are because it takes months to do a single encounter and people disappear for days on end with no explanation and often never return. I am also skeptical about any feedback I get because a lot of people on this forum, and the internet in general, are just flaming / trolling for the hell of it. Still, if you think there is some value we can talk.
At this point, anything that lets you play with someone aside from your current stable of Players would be a good idea. IMHO you need some perspective - either from playing different games, or getting honest feedback from sapient individuals. I've not been much for PbP, personally, but AFAIK this board has a decent population of DMs and Players so the chances that you'll have an educational experience (and hopefully a positive one) is pretty good :smallsmile:

Side Note

As I said I don't have any experience playing story driven RPGs except a little Fate, however what I did have seemed to be completely antithetical to playing a character as I kept have to play "musical chairs", jumping out of my character's head to narrate what the story and characters, and the other players and GM kept taking control away from my character to tell the story when it was their turn. For all I know they were playing the game very wrong and not all systems are like that, but it has soured me on the concept.
Well, that is pretty much what collaborative storytelling games are, but don't you do the same thing when you switch between NPCs? :smallconfused:

Anyhow, if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. I'm sorry to hear it, 'cause that style of game is showing some serious innovation these days. And I think they're a lot of fun.

dsmiles
2011-06-08, 05:19 PM
The reason I'm pushing this point is because this is - what - the 5th or 6th thread you've started in which your Players are wrecking your game? This is not a series of one-offs; this is a systematic problem.
I have to agree. This is definitely an ongoing problem. Most of the advice in this thread is solid (there are some I'd disagree with, but that's another story). If this continues, your players will go off to ruin other games after college, and we can't have that, now, can we?

Talakeal
2011-06-08, 06:10 PM
How do you know people on the forums are just trolling for the hell of it? Because I haven't seen a single person do that.

There are several people who are now banned that were trolling every thread pretty hard, I could name names but I am pretty sure if I did that I would join them. Likewise there are a couple of people who respond to almost every thread in the most hostile way possible, not necessarily flaming or trolling, but people with no tact and opinions that are radically different than the norm.


I have to agree. This is definitely an ongoing problem. Most of the advice in this thread is solid (there are some I'd disagree with, but that's another story). If this continues, your players will go off to ruin other games after college, and we can't have that, now, can we?

Actually all of the problem players have either dropped out or graduated, as would I if I hadn't gotten a late start and changed my major twice... but that's a different story.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-06-08, 06:11 PM
There are several people who are now banned that were trolling every thread pretty hard, I could name names but I am pretty sure if I did that I would join them. Likewise there are a couple of people who respond to almost every thread in the most hostile way possible, not necessarily flaming or trolling, but people with no tact and opinions that are radically different than the norm.

Those people are banned. Problem solved.

Talakeal
2011-06-10, 02:21 AM
Those people are banned. Problem solved.

Well, the first type gets banned pretty quickly, but there are several people in the second camp who have been here as long as I have.

dsmiles
2011-06-10, 07:23 AM
Actually all of the problem players have either dropped out or graduated, as would I if I hadn't gotten a late start and changed my major twice... but that's a different story.
Wait. What? :smallconfused:

You come in here griping about your players, and then you say that they're not problem players? I'm a little confused.

Your description in the OP...is the definition of 'problem player.' Look it up in the dictionary, you'll see a picture of these guys sitting around a table.

Seriously, if you ask for advice, consider the advice. Don't dismiss it out of hand with comments like, "They'll cry 'Killer DM!'" Sometimes, you just have to stand up to your players. Sometimes, you have to take a little heat for it. It happens. There's only two ways to fix problem players. One of them will get you jail time (usually 25 - life). The other is to stand up to them, and explain to them that they're problem players.

Either that or put up an ad looking for new players. I'm sure the student center has a corkboard or something where you can pin notices. If not there, try the local gaming store, or Pen & Paper Games (http://www.penandpapergames.com/).

The Glyphstone
2011-06-10, 07:29 AM
And even on the first method, a sufficiently sympathetic judge (who's a gamer) might go easy on you if your defense is "They kept killing my quest-givers!"

dsmiles
2011-06-10, 07:55 AM
And even on the first method, a sufficiently sympathetic judge (who's a gamer) might go easy on you if your defense is "They kept killing my quest-givers!"I've heard of that. I think they call it 'justifiable homicide' in the legal circles.

RPGuru1331
2011-06-10, 08:06 AM
So people near universally tell you that you have problem players, and you're... concerned that you have trolls who stay within the rules and have opinions out of the norm?

Dude, you have problem players. I'm sorry. If you're not trying to run this kind of game and they're taking advantage of quest givers, murdering merchants and whatnot, that's a problem player. Personally I'd recommend talking it over OOC; there isn't, per se, a problem with what they're doing, but the fact that it's annoying you and this isn't an evil game. And even if that's what you were doing, if they expect to throw their weight around without recourse to the authorities, they don't understand the point of villainous protagonists. Putting aside thematic and storyline discussions, it isn't interesting to punch out random merchants and not have anything bad happen at all because of it (They don't need to be punished for, say a well-planned caper that removes a shopkeep's supply and gold; it's not about being evil, but about the boring method and shaking it up in some way).

You were concerned about the 'realism'? HEre's realism; there's no magic item shops in a city that can't defend itself. Those are people who have resources, are well off, and can move, even in a 'feudal' world where the ordinary peasant can't. They're merchants; even an ordinary merchant has some fair amount of mobility in this kind of society. A magic item merchant all the moreso. Having them there at all is 'video gamey', so if they're pulling this crap it's acceptable to have a band of wandering, honest-to-god heroes show up and hear about this groupt hat took advantage of the town. Then rather than give them particularly strong loot, just boost their base stats to the point where it's roughly equivalent despite having no magic items, maybe give them a few extras that 'by the rules' they shouldn't have. There; arbitrary wealth-to-XP Ratios restored. You can't just hand them the experience; even if you talk it out in OOC, and even if you get them to see the problem, they may not want to just hand the loot back. I can actually respect that, for IC-ness. You can't just hand them the experience; it'll only encourage that kind of thing more and send mixed messages. So, you send a band of wandering heroes.

The Valiant Turtle
2011-06-10, 11:31 AM
I'd definitely say that the vast majority of your issue is problem players, including the problem of other players leaving. I know I wouldn't want to play in pretty much any of the groups you've described even the GM was the greatest GM the world has ever seen.

I've never really been a fan of pbp. To me much of the fun of RPGs is getting together with friends and quoting Monty Python/Princess Bride/Star Wars and just generally having fun while we are also role-playing. You can't get that in pbp and having to check in daily just seems like work to me. You probably could get most of the fun using voice-chat software (Skype or others) and any of the various virtual tabletops that are out there. I think maptools is the most popular, but there are others. It will probably take more setup time, but it might be worth it. Send me a PM if you decide to try this. I'm easy-going and really don't mind a nice railroad ride now and then, but will give you an honest evaluation afterwards.

Mikeavelli
2011-06-10, 12:35 PM
The problem isn't necessarily problem players.

Certainly, if you can find a group who honestly wants to go around playing heroic knights in shining armor, righting wrongs and so forth, that would be absolutely perfect. You would be happy DM'ing, the players wouldn't step out of line, etc.

But, in my experience, All players are murderous little sociopaths. It's extremely hard to get anyone at all to feel empathy for nameless, faceless NPC's, especially merchants or guardsmen who represent the sort of people you want to punch in the face in real life.

Anyone who has ever been a wage slave has some measure of resentment for people who are able to sit in a store and be wealthy by selling fantastically expensive stuff. They might even see themselves as a sort of Robin Hood style bandit, stealing from the greedy merchant for the benefit of the poor.

They themselves are poor, at least compared to a merchant who can spend half a million gold on a sword.

Anyone who has ever had a run-in with the cops, or dislikes authority figures in any way, is not going to see the city guards as people doing their job, they're going to see them as irritating enforcers at best, and tasty little chunks of xp at worst.

These tendencies among players are so very common that you are never going to find people who game your way unless you go very, VERY far out of your way in order to find them.

[hr]

The solution is to incorporate their actions and personalities into the campaign, and Make that the central challenge of the game!

As you might have guessed, I’ve run through this problem with players in my own game, and can tell you, clearly and unambiguously, that enforcing consequences for their actions is the best possible course of action.

The players had set themselves up in a city modeled after renaissance London, and after completing an adventure that gained them the respect of the townsfolk, they cut loose a bit. The rogue decided they should go about robbing noblemen (the players decided the nobility of the city was hopelessly corrupt) – and taking over the city.

The next session involved a group of NPC’s of equal level to the players attempting to track them down and scry-and-die the players. For some reason the players didn’t even think they were behaving in an “evil” fashion, so it came as a bit of a shock when that party was led by a Paladin.

One player died in that encounter, and the rest were nearly dead (tremendously rare in my games), and the entire city was hunting them after it ended. They were forced to plane shift to finally escape. At the time, I got many complaints of “killer GM” and “You’re just doing this to teach us a lesson.” I was, but that’s beside the point.

they loved it, and still talk about that session a year later

The next session sunk all their ill-gotten gold into hiring a mercenary army and came in to “liberate” the city, placing it under their control. What followed was a series of sessions where they were opposed by progressively more powerful individuals and organizations, all of which called them out for the terrible things they were doing.

And… It worked. Despite doing so many “evil” things, they still wanted to believe they were doing “good.” It became so difficult to believe that after getting chewed out and attacked by good NPC’s in-game, that they actually changed their behavior and started behaving like civilized human beings.

Talakeal
2011-06-10, 03:57 PM
Wait. What? :smallconfused:

You come in here griping about your players, and then you say that they're not problem players? I'm a little confused.

Your description in the OP...is the definition of 'problem player.' Look it up in the dictionary, you'll see a picture of these guys sitting around a table.

Seriously, if you ask for advice, consider the advice. Don't dismiss it out of hand with comments like, "They'll cry 'Killer DM!'" Sometimes, you just have to stand up to your players. Sometimes, you have to take a little heat for it. It happens. There's only two ways to fix problem players. One of them will get you jail time (usually 25 - life). The other is to stand up to them, and explain to them that they're problem players.

Either that or put up an ad looking for new players. I'm sure the student center has a corkboard or something where you can pin notices. If not there, try the local gaming store, or Pen & Paper Games (http://www.penandpapergames.com/).

I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that they aren't in college anymore, not that I don't play with me or they aren't still problem players.

My players seriously think I am a killer DM, and constantly bitch about how I require intelligence, play monsters and NPCs with real motives and tactics, and about how I "pull grudge monsters out my but". I think they are being whiny and overly sensitive, but they still tell me that every time I do play tough with them, and I am pretty sure that if I ramp it up they will just act out all the stronger until they leave.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-06-10, 04:07 PM
I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that they aren't in college anymore, not that I don't play with me or they aren't still problem players.

My players seriously think I am a killer DM, and constantly bitch about how I require intelligence, play monsters and NPCs with real motives and tactics, and about how I "pull grudge monsters out my but". I think they are being whiny and overly sensitive, but they still tell me that every time I do play tough with them.

Then actually get tough on them! In a few months of playing they'll suck it up, because there likely aren't any other DMs out there. If you don't think you can handle their whining, make one of them DM!

Talakeal
2011-06-10, 04:13 PM
I have had players walk out on when they felt the difficulty was too high. I have had one player who was bitching so hard that all the fights were unfair that I told him if he didn't stop I would dock him XP, at which point he told me that if staying around was going to kill his character and cost him XP he was out and leave.
I have had a player walk out of a session because they were injured by a trap which they believed was unrealistic.
I have had a player whose defense based character with a low BaB couldn't hit the monster without modifiers or buffs and so she left because she felt she was worthless.
I have had a player walk out because they shot at a literal God only to find that he was immune to harm.
And after that incident in the temple I had two players walk out, one of them didn't come back for months.

This all really happened, and each one is a different player. These are times when I felt I wasn't playing tough with them, I really feel that if I was playing tough on them I would lose my whole group, and as I have said I still enjoy gaming even when it is with problem players.

I am paying attention when you tell me to toughen up, I just need to figure out a way to do it more subtly and need to do other things at the same time I think.


Then actually get tough on them! In a few months of playing they'll suck it up, because there likely aren't any other DMs out there. If you don't think you can handle their whining, make one of them DM!

Most of them lack the skill, creativity, or motivation to DM. The only other guy in my group who is willing to DM is not terribly great at it, and the other players are 10x harder on him than they are on me for some reason, so the games always fall apart rapidly. Also, every time we have ever had a DM other than me they simply get bored after a few sessions and end the campaign, I don't know why, but I seem to be the only one around here with an attentions span.

dsmiles
2011-06-10, 04:14 PM
They are being whiny and overly sensitive.There it is.

There's no reason not to try to find new players that want to play the game that you're offering. These guys obviously want a pushover DM. I'm not a pushover, and I won't recommend anyone else ever be a pushover. Playing with a pushover DM is boring.

When they get whiny and overly sensitive, don't get a thin skin. If they leave, advertise for more players. Hell, advertise for more players now. Get the players you want to play with. Then dump these guys. I had a player who got sensitive and whiny when I played monsters to their Intelligence. We stopped inviting him, because he wanted a different game than I was offering (among other things; you should see my Real Roleplayers of Genius (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11027684&postcount=11) post), and a different game than the other players wanted.

These guys want a sandbox game where there are no consequences for their actions, it seems. They need to find a DM willing to provide that. You should find players that want to play a game with a plot and realistic consequences for characters' actions. They're out there.
[/2˘]