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Togo
2011-06-05, 05:04 PM
This is the Out Of Character thread.

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-05, 05:16 PM
SpoD: Saffron (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=300689)Background
She was a greedy cruel human hunter from the Prime who thought the animals in the Beastlands were the ultimate trophy game. She was trying to hunt a celestial wapiti, unaware that it was actually the Deer Lord. The Deer Lord revealed himself, and she tried to justify her actions by saying that tigers were allowed to hunt them, so she should be, too. The Deer Lord sensed her disingenuousness, however, and told her that if she wanted to hunt prey like a tiger, she must live as a tiger--and transformed her into an anthropomorphic tiger. As she had been very beautiful and vain about her looks, this devastated her.

She tried to return home, but everywhere she went, people thought she was a weretiger or a rakshasa and drove her away. Eventually, she returned to the Beastlands, found the Deer Lord, and repented. She begged his forgiveness, and he told her that she would now hunt for them--hunt those who would do harm to this place, those who would destroy the Good of the wild. She agreed, and has been an agent of the Beast Lords ever since. A few years ago, the Deer Lord offered to return her to her natural form as a reward for decades of service and she refused, saying that this shape allowed her to serve them better.
Autopsibiofeeder: Derk Silverhair (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=300685)Background
In his youth Derk experienced what many sorcerers experience while they are young. Luckily for him, the weird events and phenomena were a known Ďissueí in the family. Just about once every three generations a sorcerer would pop up. The solution was simple: send the troubled kid to a monastery and the priests would take care of it. Normally, these kids would end up as scribe or get some other dusty job, neglecting their powers, but Derk was strong and looked a good soldier. So he ended up getting training as a paladin and his work as a soldier allowed him to develop his sorcerer skills.

Obviously, a paladin developing into an armoured arcanist granted him considerable status in the region and during ten years he was an important leader in the cause of law and good, providing relative peace and protection for the region. To all things comes and end, though, and at some point he decided he had outgrown his job. He had found a good candidate to fill his position and he had become more and more curious about the rest of the world and what lay beyond.

The next three years Derk spent travelling the world, accompanied by several different groups of adventurers. In his adventures and through conversations with fellow adventurers he picked up all kinds of knowledge. He became stronger and more confident in his quests against evil, but somewhere in the back of his head there was this feeling of emptiness. A curiosity that needed to be filled, a longing for a world that may not be as black and white and a craving for a deeper understanding of the source of his power.

At age 30 Derk met a very special man that convinced him to travel together for a while. Soon this new friend exposed himself as being a (relatively young) silver dragon that wanted to learn about humans through Derk. In return he would teach Derk about his ancestry, the source of his power, about the other planes and arcane mysteries. In these last two years Derk matured fully and developed into the man he is now.

Derk still wants to learn more about the balance between good and evil and as soon as he heard of the existence of a place called Sigil, the door to the multiverse, he made work of travelling there. He put all his connections and resources he built up during his life to work in order to reach the next step in his eternal quest...

Description
Derk is a tall and muscular man who has had silvery hair since his birth, a trait that runs in the family. Not only did this give their name, it also hints at a faint ancestry that goes back ages. His face shows a steadfast determination and a zealous passion, but also the understanding and wisdom that typically grows on a man that has been a soldier and adventurer for over 15 years. Friendly, yet stern most would say. When on a mission, he typically wears a shiny full plate armor made out of mithral and a big mean looking flail. He always wears silvery gloves, for some reason....

Personality
In his younger years Derk was a zealous and unforgiving paladin, and what it made worse was the pride running through his veins due to his draconic ancestry. A caring man, a devoted man and a kind man but also relentless towards those that did not live by the law. Fortunately, nowadays he has grown older and wiser. He has learned to understand and appreciate other (good) philosophies and tolerates less straightforward, dishonest, combat tactics to some degree (but will never take part in it). At the same time his grudge versus evil and particularly the undead has grown over the many years as he witnessed more and more evil acts. These days his main drivers are a thirst for knowledge and understanding of the moral side of life. As he learned more about the cosmology and religion, he has become convinced that evil cannot be conqueredÖit will never go away. Nevertheless, there are places for evil beings to exist and places for evil beings to be eradicated, with threatened creatures that deserve protection.

In combat
In combat Derk prefers to face enemies in the open and fight with honor. He will not lie in an ambush if he can avoid it and he will not use sneak attack tactics. He is able to take quite the beating and will always be at the forefront, offering protection to those that need it and death to those that deserve it. In a typical combat situation, Derk will cast a swift Shield and his lizard familiar will cast Haste while Derk rushes into combat. As soon as he can, he will use his Air devotion, but otherwise you will find him battering the opposition.

Obrysii: Xiuhcoatl (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=300759)Background
The dragon Xiuhcoatl, the Flame Drake, the Desert's Bane, has humble beginnings: on a small, backwater world on the Prime Material, he was born to parents seeking to improve their lot in the multiverse. They rose up, and challenged the gods - and lost.

Struggling as they might, before they died they flung their child - their beloved, singular offspring - to a place where no deity could reach: Sigil, the City of Doors, protected by the entity known only as the Lady of Pain. Here Xiuhcoatl would find peace and safety - at least for a time.

However, the magic that twisted reality to send him failed, leaving him in the Outlands.

The dragon is now approximately fourteen years old, and having amassed a considerable fortune from his time in the planes.

Xiuhcoatl operates under the name Androse Pensive, a young prince of a far-away kingdom who now owns and runs an orphanage for any young who have no family.

Xiuhcoatl dislikes combat, preferring to talk out disputes rather than fight, and even more dislikes to reveal his true form. If pressed, however, or if someone openly and malevolently threatens those he protects, he fights with a wrath only a dragon could produce.

The vast majority of his gear works both as Androse as well as in his natural form, and he focuses on wand-magic as his own innate powers have yet to develop.
GuessWho: Sthrerrbhna Ilathalar-tuth (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=302604)Background
Born as the result of a pregnant adventurer helping to end a Far Realm incursion, the woman known to most as 'that weirdo mutant girl what has the unpronouncible name' fled to Sigil in search of people who wouldn't actually flinch just looking at her.

Personality
Strange, secretive and happy to speak to even the weirdest monsters. Prefers the distinctly inhuman to the humanoid, and tends towards discussions of such things as black holes, wormholes, reality inversion, implausable cultures, highly improbable events and violations of the laws of the universe. Any mention of the Far Realm is enough to make her stop whatever she is doing and attempt to form a discussion group.

Description
Snake tail, tentacles, extra eyes and gills make for a woman who stands out even in a Sigil crowd. Blue eyes, pasty white skin and long black hair doesn't really help, nor do the once-fine, now-tattered clothes she wears.
Toliudar: Godot Samuels (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=300614)Background
Godot grew up among the Barni, a travelling clan of chaos gnome players and circus folk. As you might expect among an intelligent and capricious group of naturally gifted mages, the Barni began investigating the mystic connections between the building blocks of magic, and the manner in which social interactions and performances can unlock astonishing effects.

Godot's initial training was primarily as an ingenue actor and fiddler, although she did a little bit of all of the myriad of tasks it takes to keep a traveling band of players afloat. Including, as it turns out, befuddling drunks, avoiding corrupt watchmen, and slipping away from bandits.

The Barni's special act was an aerial ballet by a quartet of pixies - Deepti, Ashera, Ashti and Nehra - alternately making themselves visible and invisible, and incorporating objects plucked from audience members into the dance. Godot stood in total awe of the pixies as a child, and grew up following one of the four around like a puppy. She remains close with the four sprites, and some of their fey magic has permanently rubbed off on her.

The Barni do what they can to get out of awkward situations using wit and guile, without bloodshed. Godot has taken this a step further. Even now, a decade after leaving the circus, she takes some pride in the fact that she has never killed a person ('person' being defined as anyone who is likely to talk back when you talk to it, a definition which she has stretched to include clever animals not actively trying to eat her).

She HAS, though, helped negotaiate a treaty between the wandering tribes of the Ashter and the port city of Vista. She has written a play that was performed before King Tsher of Leppo. She has beaten the vampire Troil at cards - and escaped his wrath when he discovered she'd cheated more skilfully than him. She has improvised a song that gave the townsfolk of Umree the courage to take down a necromancer's army of zombies.

All of which has lead her to fear that, in fact, this is as good as it gets. She has an extraordinary range of plays under her belt already, and is the toast of three cities along the east coast. She is, frankly, bored, and worried that life has nothing left to offer her.

In desperation, Godot has wangled access to Sigil, where she has promptly joined the Sensates, and seeks a transformative experience, one that will fuel her muse for years to come.
THEchanger: Simon Shadowstalker (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=300585)Background
ďNow those memories come back to haunt me. They haunt me like a curse.Ē -Bruce Springsteen

ďThey say that Darkstone can twist a personís thoughts, eat a personís mind, pull at a manís soul. They say that Darkstone is the essence of evil bound to rock. But we know better. We know what Darkstone does. It is a depository, nothing more.
So, what would happen, if we were to use that depository, and give it life? Force a soul within it, and give the soul control. It would be the ultimate warrior. A warriorís soul, within a body of stone.
They would be unstoppable.Ē -Father Carlos, in his treatise on the production of Darkstone Adepts.

5 Elements
1) Cleric of Heironeous, one of the ones who goes out and smashes evil into the dust.

2) Very protective of his companions, to the point of sacrificing himself for their sake.

3) Agreed to an experimental procedure, wherein his soul would be bound to a Darkstone statue of himself, to afford better defenses in the fight against evil.

4) Experiment went awry, and Simon was placed in a deep sleep for a very long time.

5) Upon waking, the temple to Heironeous had been abandoned, the artifacts left within. Simon took up the weapons and magic items he could find, and left to do battle once more. He made his way to Sigil, the City at the Center of the Realms, to be in a better place to seek out evil-doers.



2 Goals
1) Simon, in addition to fulfilling the orders of Heironeous, wishes to figure out what exactly happened to his brothers.

2) Simon needs to come to terms with the fact that his friends are probably dead. In fact, they almost certainly are. Itís been a very long time.


2 Secrets
1) (Known)Simon knows that the Darkstone material, while excellent for the storage of souls, is also not exactly a good thing. Itís actually a special stone from the Plane of Gehenna, which means its very essence is stained with evil. Simonís not exactly sure what that will entail for him and those around him, but heís sure its not good.

2) (Unknown)Simon Shadowstalker is not actually the Simon he remembers. Sort of. You see, the Darkstone the temple of Heironeous had obtained already had a soul within it. The residentís soul has not been determined, but Simonís soul was lost in the ritual. Instead, the remnants of his mind were imprinted upon the soul which was already residing within the stone. No magic thus far has managed to cure this, but if such a spell were devised, the results could be disastrous.


3 People
1) Rachel Stargazer-
A bar-maid in the Boarís Head tavern in Sigil, Rachel is a Zenythri, one of those oddly Lawful-Aligned almost humans. Rachel and Simon maintain a friendship full of biting sarcasm and clever come-backs, but she would always come to Simonís aid in a pinch. She has a minor bit of magic, and is very proficient in the use of a bottle as a weapon.

2) Micheal Wrathmaker
Micheal is a cleric of Hextor. Thatís about all that needs to be said here. Simon and Micheal realize they could never defeat each other in a head-on battle. So, they maintain a non-aggression pact. As long as they stay on their sides of the city, and Micheal doesnít do too much evil, they stay out of each otherís way. But both plot to find a way to wipe the other from existence. Micheal is a vampire.

3) Ezekiel
The man known only as Ezekiel has followed Simon since his transformation. The robed watcher always carries a notebook with him, and an ever-moving pen writes as its master watches. He never interferes, he never speaks. Occasionally, he motions. Strangely, Ezekiel does not show himself to many other people besides Simon. Whenever Simon goes to show someone the man, Ezekiel has disappeared.


3 Memories
1) Simon remembers his first steps outside after awaking. It was a deeply disturbing event. Simonís new body prevents him from really feeling sensations of touch. That was the second time Simon wept in his life.

2) The first time Simon wept was early in his career as a crusader in the name of Heironeous. He was working with one of his brothers, George. They were exterminating a nest of undead. George was taken by a vampire. Simon could do nothing to save George. By the time Simon found them, George was a Spawn. Simon did what he had too. Simon never worked along side his brothers in the crusades again.

3) Simon hates what heís become, and what he fears he will become. He feels that his humanity is slowly slipping away from him. As such, he makes every effort to appear as human as possible. Sadly, this just makes him seems awkward. When he accidentally sticks his hand in a fire, it stays there until he realizes that his hand should be burning, when he quickly pulls it back. Stuff like that. Itís just sad, really.
Cespenar: Rhion Lett (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=300926)Background
Rhion's life could be summarized as one word: Adaptation. To put it from the start, his father was a hermit. Yes, a hermit's life is supposed to be lived alone, and this one was going to prove no exception, if he hadn't met a lovely young woman, looking for a cure for her strange illness. The illness was cured alright, but it seems that they both needed a bit more than a cure, which is why they ended up as lovers, and eventually, parents. Rhion was born into a world of motion. By the time her mother gave birth to him, they weren't staying still at one place, but rather spending their whole life travelling, and this didn't change when the little child who they named Rhion joined the "family". It wasn't too easy for him, since children tend to search for aspects of safety and security, and neither had a place in the ever-journeying family of Rhion, at least not in their usual forms. Thus, he did what he had to do, and adapted. Then, as what he was adapted to has changed, he adapted again. And again. But he discovered what adaptation really meant later, when he was 17, as his father who was already well aged, passed away. He understood that one cannot adapt to his new conditions by simply observing these conditions and accepting them as the truth. One adapts (and makes life easier to live) by seeing the world as a whole, and accepting it as a whole, both the negative and positive parts.

With these thoughts Rhion tried to get over his father's death, and gave a "radical" decision, in which he took her mother and persuaded her to settle down at the first town that they'll come upon. She didn't resist, and they took solace in the safety of a community for once in a while, which was a "different change" than they have had before. Rhion tried to take care of them both by using what healing skills he learned from his father for the townsfolk, and to his surprise, he was received rather well by the people, who were apparently in need of a healer in town.

Rhion was content to live there for the rest of his life, if it weren't for one Godsmen monk that was passing through the town. Fate brought them together, and the man told Rhion all about the faction and its philosophy, insisting that his life would be a waste if he would stay here forever, what he *should* do is to ever being in motion, striving for the maximum of his potential. To his surprise, his mother agreed with this idea wholeheartedly, saying that she would rather let him go than keep him with her and prevent him for what he might become. Rhion was both deeply moved and intrigued by the words of his mother and the monk, and after thorough considerations, he decided to heed the monk's word and follow him, to wherever the road leads.

It's been almost twenty years now that the monk has passed away too, but his ideas live with and within Rhion, guiding and shaping his actions this whole time. And his path, while being as long as his own life, finally brought him to Sigil, where gateways into each and every world should exist, if one were to believe the rumors. The perfect place for a traveler.
Ifni: Blackfrost Umbriel (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=301089)Short version: Umbriel was born in an eclipse cabal named Blackfrost, hidden in the ice of Ocanthus near the stronghold of Wee Jas called the Cabal Macabre. Umbriel went to study at the Cabal as a girl, and as she grew in power and knowledge was sent on increasingly far-ranging missions, advancing the interests of Wee Jas across the planes. She has primarily worked in research and recovery of knowledge from old libraries and caches (including excavations), but is also well-practiced at dealing with traps and monstrous guardians.

Long version:
In the beginning was the Word, and in the Word lay the sum of all knowledge. But evil sought to unspeak the Word, and plunge all again into ignorance and darkness. The keepers of the Word broke it into many parts and fled, to all the corners of their world, and beyond.
Below the turning iron cubes of the Infernal Battlefield, the guardians found a world where darkness lay on the face of the deep, a great sheet of blue-black ice veiling the unknown horrors below. A world where glittering iceshards spun and sparkled in the endless air, in a storm of razor edges to eviscerate the unprepared.
They came through the storm to the fortress of the Lady of Book and Bone, and found shelter there. To the Lady they paid homage and swore eternal loyalty, and the Lady returned her favor and her protection.
So began Blackfrost, sanctuary of the Eclipse. So began our trust. May it stand ever unbroken - until the ice of Ocanthus melts, and the Word may again be freely spoken.
Umbriel rubbed her forehead. Blackfrost had been much in her thoughts for the past day, as she prepared herself for the final stage of her journey to Sigil, and it was impossible to remember her childhood cabal without recalling the soft, dry voice of Loremaster Yeylea reciting the catechism that was the first lesson the little ones learned. Those last words had opened every meal and every formal meeting for the first two decades of her life. That was long ago, now, in another world, and she was no longer who she had been. Still, the memories lingered.
Blackfrost had always sent some of its children to the Cabal Macabre - those who were too restless to submit easily to the rigid disciplines of the Eclipse, or gifted enough that the Jasidans regarded their skills as wasted within the peaceful confines of the cabal. Umbriel had been both, a high-spirited, mind-hungry girl blessed with a boundless curiosity and an intelligence as sharp as the razor-edged Ocanthan ice.
Fifty years later, the restlessness and high spirits had faded. Bitter experience had taught her the value of caution and care, of subtlety over raw power. Of course, exhibitionism still had its place. Sometimes a statement had to be made. And the hunger for knowledge - that would never be slaked while she lived.
She had served the Ruby Sorceress for half a century: teaching apprentices at the Cabal and in strongholds on other planes, researching new spells and the nature of magic, exploring far-flung libraries and old ruins to seek out forgotten lore, and otherwise serving the Lady's interests. But for this last mission she'd been given little guidance, only a final goal. That it was a goal that marched closely with her own desires... she supposed the Lady had done that deliberately. High risk and high reward, success or oblivion. The Lady of Book and Bone, goddess of magic and death, would expect no less.
So be it. She touched the ruby pin at her throat and murmured a brief devotion as she stepped through the portal.

A memory from Umbriel's youth, when she first went to the Cabal Macabre:


Umbriel stands before the gateway in the dome that protects Blackfrost. She is motionless and her face is serene, but she radiates a quivering eagerness leashed only by an effort of will. Her sleeveless tunic and knee-length pants are bright crimson, a splash of color contrasting sharply with the white garb of the others her age. Her strawberry-blonde hair is woven into a long, thick braid that hangs past the small of her back. A low hum of whispering from the watchers fills the air.
Yeylea walks forward and hands a bundle of scrolls to the young illumian.
"These are your charge," he says, his voice soft but carrying to the edges of the courtyard. "Deliver them into the hand of the Seneschal. You have one hour from this moment to prepare yourself and make the journey."
Umbriel nods respectfully and inclines her head. Then she turns and runs toward the gate.
She hears a gasp behind her, a stifled cry from someone in the crowd, but she does not stop. She leaps gracefully through the invisible boundary where the bladestorm begins, and as she feels the first prickle of the frosty air, she speaks a single word of power.
The shards of ice whirl around her in an intricate, ever-changing dance, but they do not touch her. The cold kisses her exposed skin, but it will not harm her in this short trip. She runs lightly across the dark ice, graceful as the wind, and does not halt until she arrives, breathless and laughing, in the clear air that surrounds the Lady's home.
The spell she had used had not been one taught to the children of the cabal. She had found its greater version hidden deep in the library's records of the initial arrival in Ocanthus, but it had been beyond her powers to cast. It had taken much of her free time over the past few months to reduce it to this more manageable, less complex variant. But it had been worth it, to hear the gasps from her peers, to overcome the challenge by adroit use of the single perfect spell.
She takes a moment to catch her breath and brush the dark powdery flecks of ice from her tunic and pants. She looks up at the castle, glowing with an eerie bone-white light. This is where she will prove herself, and come to realize her full potential, as she could never do in the quiet, unchanging, confining security of Blackfrost. Within waits knowledge, and power, and glory... and danger too, and pain, no doubt. But even so, she wants it all.
She walks through the great double doors.

Receiving her current mission:

Umbriel enters the audience chamber and drops into a deep curtsey before the ice weird, her black robes pooling on the floor around her as she sinks to one knee.
"As I have been summoned, Seneschal, so do I come," she greets the weird, eyes lowered to the smooth bone-pale floor.
"Rise, Blackfrost Umbriel," the Seneschal says, her voice cold and haughty as always. It is her nature; Umbriel does not take offense. "The Lady is pleased with you."
Umbriel rises and stands motionless, her folded hands pale against the utter blackness of her robes. "I am honored, Seneschal."
The ice weird nods in response, a small smile curving her frost-blue lips. "Yes. You are." She lifts her chin. "Your kin have also served well, for centuries now. Consequently, the Taker desires more followers from among your people." She pauses, regarding Umbriel steadily. "Blackfrost will remain as it is, of course. Our mistress understands the nature of the Eclipse oaths, and would not risk the revelation of the sanctuary. But there are many illumian cabals scattered across the planes. Our Lady desires that Her worship become more prevalent among them."
Umbriel frowns. "I am hardly the best evangelist you could find, Seneschal," she says carefully. "My skills are in research, in the teaching of magic, the gathering of lore, and in spells that reshape the physical world - not in proselytizing, in winning minds and souls to a cause. I know my limitations."
"Indeed. But for the moment, it is information that is needed. Groundwork that must be laid. You do know, do you not, of Illumian cabals that do not follow the path of the Eclipse?"
"Of course." The barest shade of irritation colors Umbriel's voice. "The loremaster of Blackfrost is conscientious and I would not forget his teachings."
The ice weird tilts her head. "Just so. The question was rhetorical. But so it goes: the Lady wishes you to work toward the establishment of a chain cabal in her service. It is hoped that in future the chain cabal will both advance the Lady's interests, and provide an avenue to recruit more Illumians to our faith, without risking Blackfrost."
Umbriel raises an eyebrow. "With me as the sole link. I am glad to see you trust my discretion."
"You have earned trust." The weird shrugs, ripples spreading across the surface of her icy pool. "If you have not betrayed your vows in fifty years of walking the planes, She sees no reason that it should be a problem now."
"Where is this putative cabal to be located?"
"Have you ever been to the city called Sigil?"
Umbriel stiffens. "No. I have not. My instructors told me that the Lady of Pain has powers that the gods themselves might fear, and that egress from the city except through portals is impossible. Consequently, it should be regarded as a trap, and avoided where possible." She pauses, and asks, "Has that situation changed?"
"No. But you are very unlikely to draw the attention of the Lady of Pain or other powerful beings within Sigil - at least, unless you make a serious mistake - and you have the ability to deal with more commonplace threats. It is not necessary that the chain cabal should be in Sigil itself - although if you feel that would be possible, such a site would be useful - but the city provides access to a very large number of planes, and there will be travelers there from all over the Wheel. It should provide a good starting point for you to seek out potential locations, and perhaps possible recruits, while sending back information on events in Sigil itself. And of course, you should remain alert for hints of any stolen works from the Sublime Library, or new spells and lore more generally, as well as any developments that would threaten our mistress' interests."
"Of course," Umbriel replies, only a hint of irony in her tone. The reward for a task well done is a harder task... but she feels a hint of excitement stirring in an old and dusty corner of her soul. It will be challenging, certainly, and dangerous, but to found a new cabal: that would be a worthy legacy. And Sigil! She has read of the city, of course, but never thought to see it with her own eyes. She bows deeply to the ice weird. "I thank you for conveying our mistress' commands, Seneschal."
The weird inclines her head, and replies, "Go and prepare yourself, Blackfrost Umbriel. I will look forward to hearing your reports."




As I already spoilered in the IC thread, Derk would like to speak in DimGray if that is okay with everyone. I like the suggestion of us having met by destiny since we were all on the way to Sigil. Sigil being a strange, unfamiliar and perhaps dangerous place, we would all have a good reason to stick together.

We're a lot of players and high level at that, so good luck Togo managing it :smallsmile:. With that in mind, will we be having a tight posting regime (as in x times per y days minimum unless some announced absence occurs) or not? I think this would help keeping the game fluent.

Obrysii
2011-06-06, 08:28 AM
Unless colors are required, I just use quotation marks, as per Standard English.

If colors are required, I'll use Dark Orange.

SPoD
2011-06-06, 08:50 AM
I prefer both quotes and colors, so I'll be using Sienna.

We should all transplant our background blurbs to this thread, and put a link to our character sheets:

Saffron's Character Sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=300689)

Background:
She was a greedy cruel human hunter from the Prime who thought the animals in the Beastlands were the ultimate trophy game. She was trying to hunt a celestial wapiti, unaware that it was actually the Deer Lord. The Deer Lord revealed himself, and she tried to justify her actions by saying that tigers were allowed to hunt them, so she should be, too. The Deer Lord sensed her disingenuousness, however, and told her that if she wanted to hunt prey like a tiger, she must live as a tiger--and transformed her into an anthropomorphic tiger. As she had been very beautiful and vain about her looks, this devastated her.

She tried to return home, but everywhere she went, people thought she was a weretiger or a rakshasa and drove her away. Eventually, she returned to the Beastlands, found the Deer Lord, and repented. She begged his forgiveness, and he told her that she would now hunt for them--hunt those who would do harm to this place, those who would destroy the Good of the wild. She agreed, and has been an agent of the Beast Lords ever since. A few years ago, the Deer Lord offered to return her to her natural form as a reward for decades of service and she refused, saying that this shape allowed her to serve them better.

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-06, 08:55 AM
Right, good idea. I will collect all the info (backgrounds and sheetlinks) that appear in this thread in my first post, so it is gathered at the top of page 1.

Obrysii
2011-06-06, 09:35 AM
Here's my background:
The dragon Xiuhcoatl, the Flame Drake, the Desert's Bane, has humble beginnings: on a small, backwater world on the Prime Material, he was born to parents seeking to improve their lot in the multiverse. They rose up, and challenged the gods - and lost.

Struggling as they might, before they died they flung their child - their beloved, singular offspring - to a place where no deity could reach: Sigil, the City of Doors, protected by the entity known only as the Lady of Pain. Here Xiuhcoatl would find peace and safety - at least for a time.

However, the magic that twisted reality to send him failed, leaving him in the Outlands.

The dragon is now approximately fourteen years old, and having amassed a considerable fortune from his time in the planes.

Xiuhcoatl operates under the name Androse Pensive, a young prince of a far-away kingdom who now owns and runs an orphanage for any young who have no family.

Xiuhcoatl dislikes combat, preferring to talk out disputes rather than fight, and even more dislikes to reveal his true form. If pressed, however, or if someone openly and malevolently threatens those he protects, he fights with a wrath only a dragon could produce.

The vast majority of his gear works both as Androse as well as in his natural form, and he focuses on wand-magic as his own innate powers have yet to develop.

Toliudar
2011-06-06, 08:58 PM
Thanks for pulling together our sheets, Autopsibiofeeder...how do you shorten that?

Whew. A lot of high level characters. There'll be a strong 'herding cats' element to this. I'm hoping we can establish at least some kind of past links, even if it is between a few individuals. Godot, for example, has been kicking around Sigil for a while, so could cross paths with a number of you. I'll have a look through backgrounds and suggest a few possibilities.

Godot will speak, think and orate in purple.

Background:
Godot grew up among the Barni, a travelling clan of chaos gnome players and circus folk. As you might expect among an intelligent and capricious group of naturally gifted mages, the Barni began investigating the mystic connections between the building blocks of magic, and the manner in which social interactions and performances can unlock astonishing effects.

Godot's initial training was primarily as an ingenue actor and fiddler, although she did a little bit of all of the myriad of tasks it takes to keep a traveling band of players afloat. Including, as it turns out, befuddling drunks, avoiding corrupt watchmen, and slipping away from bandits.

The Barni's special act was an aerial ballet by a quartet of pixies - Deepti, Ashera, Ashti and Nehra - alternately making themselves visible and invisible, and incorporating objects plucked from audience members into the dance. Godot stood in total awe of the pixies as a child, and grew up following one of the four around like a puppy. She remains close with the four sprites, and some of their fey magic has permanently rubbed off on her.

The Barni do what they can to get out of awkward situations using wit and guile, without bloodshed. Godot has taken this a step further. Even now, a decade after leaving the circus, she takes some pride in the fact that she has never killed a person ('person' being defined as anyone who is likely to talk back when you talk to it, a definition which she has stretched to include clever animals not actively trying to eat her).

She HAS, though, helped negotaiate a treaty between the wandering tribes of the Ashter and the port city of Vista. She has written a play that was performed before King Tsher of Leppo. She has beaten the vampire Troil at cards - and escaped his wrath when he discovered she'd cheated more skilfully than him. She has improvised a song that gave the townsfolk of Umree the courage to take down a necromancer's army of zombies.

All of which has lead her to fear that, in fact, this is as good as it gets. She has an extraordinary range of plays under her belt already, and is the toast of three cities along the east coast. She is, frankly, bored, and worried that life has nothing left to offer her.

In desperation, Godot has wangled access to Sigil, where she has promptly joined the Sensates, and seeks a transformative experience, one that will fuel her muse for years to come.

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-07, 02:09 AM
Thanks for pulling together our sheets, Autopsibiofeeder...how do you shorten that?

Hmmm...I guess Auto will do. Some people use Autopsi, which is also ok, but looks a lot like autopsy which is weird-ish :smallwink: (though it is also the name of a good band).

Ifni
2011-06-07, 02:42 AM
Sorry for the delay, guys, I was getting Umbriel's spells-prepared list together, which was non-trivial :smallwink:

I will claim Dark Slate Blue for Umbriel, if that's okay, and Dark Slate Gray for her raven.

Couple of questions:
-Is there anyone here who would really benefit from having an extra fighter bonus feat? One step away from the end of a feat chain, or just something you really wanted but didn't have room for? If so, let me know, I can do you an Extended Heroics - you do have to meet the prereqs though.
-Is there someone in the group who considers themselves a skill-based character? Perhaps Godot? I have the Share Talents spell from PHB2, which when cast on me and another person, gives us both +2 on all skills in which any one of us has a rank. I have every Int-based skill except Forgery covered, plus Concentration.

Please feel free to look at my character sheet and request other buffs (in particular, I've never used Polymorph much, but I am a transmuter, so if you have a favorite form that's not ridiculously cheesy, let me know :smallsmile:) My raven familiar will be loaded up with three Hastes, Mass Fly, Mass Fireshield and Freedom of Movement.

Given we've had some time to get to know each other, Umbriel would also offer a Chained Greater Magic Weapon to the party (using her lesser metamagic rod of chaining): she can make 20 weapons +5 for 20 hours, so just let me know how many you want enchanted :smallwink: Casters may also borrow her orange prism ioun stone for the purpose of casting buff spells, although she will watch you like a hawk (and if you're obviously Chaotic based on their interactions so far - *cough* Dime *cough* - she would likely have a counter-spell at the ready to try to stop any attempts to teleport away with it :smalltongue:)

Anyone who wants Mage Armor is also very welcome to it, since I can cast that one spontaneously.

Please let me know if I'm stepping on anyone's toes ability-wise, since I can shift my focus pretty easily by changing my spell load-out, and it's harder for most of the rest of you.

Umbriel currently appears as a woman sculpted from air, riding a black phantom horse. Her full current buff list is in the spoiler block.

Current buff spells:
Elemental Body (Air) (CL20): 30ft perfect fly speed (40ft with Heart of Air), [Air] subtype, immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, critical hits, flanking, 60ft darkvision.
Superior Resistance (CL20, extended): +6 resistance bonus on saving throws.
Greater Mage Armor (CL20): +6 armor bonus to AC.
Dragonsight (CL20): 100ft blindsense, 200ft darkvision, can see twice as well as a human in normal light and 4x as well in low light.
Heart of Earth (CL 20): 30 temporary HP, +8 bonus on checks to resist an overrun, trip or bull rush attack.
Heart of Water: 30ft swim speed, water breathing, +5 bonus to Escape Artist checks.
Heart of Air: +10 to Jump checks, +10 enhancement bonus to fly speed.
Familiar Pocket (CL20): safe haven for my raven familiar Valthrax.
Phantom Steed (CL19): AC 18, 26 HP, 240ft speed, can bear rider + 190lbs, fly at its speed with average maneuverability.
Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability (CL20): imbued spells are Haste x3, Mass Fly, Mass Fireshield, Freedom of Movement.
Contingency (CL20) (see character sheet)

SPoD
2011-06-07, 02:57 AM
I'm moderately skill-based, being a ranger. I have Handle Animal, Hide, Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Search, Spot, and Survival trained.

I would also happily take a Greater Magic Weapon, I'm using a +1 swordbow.

I don't think I'd have anything specific for the Heroics, though, so you can give that to someone else.

Ifni
2011-06-07, 04:10 AM
Okay, one GMW marked down for the Huntress. Like I said, there are 20 available (from one casting), and having spares doesn't do me any good, so feel free to include backup weapons if you like :smallsmile:

Since I forgot to post it earlier, here is the copy of Umbriel's background:


Short version: Umbriel was born in an eclipse cabal named Blackfrost, hidden in the ice of Ocanthus near the stronghold of Wee Jas called the Cabal Macabre. Umbriel went to study at the Cabal as a girl, and as she grew in power and knowledge was sent on increasingly far-ranging missions, advancing the interests of Wee Jas across the planes. She has primarily worked in research and recovery of knowledge from old libraries and caches (including excavations), but is also well-practiced at dealing with traps and monstrous guardians.

Long version:
In the beginning was the Word, and in the Word lay the sum of all knowledge. But evil sought to unspeak the Word, and plunge all again into ignorance and darkness. The keepers of the Word broke it into many parts and fled, to all the corners of their world, and beyond.
Below the turning iron cubes of the Infernal Battlefield, the guardians found a world where darkness lay on the face of the deep, a great sheet of blue-black ice veiling the unknown horrors below. A world where glittering iceshards spun and sparkled in the endless air, in a storm of razor edges to eviscerate the unprepared.
They came through the storm to the fortress of the Lady of Book and Bone, and found shelter there. To the Lady they paid homage and swore eternal loyalty, and the Lady returned her favor and her protection.
So began Blackfrost, sanctuary of the Eclipse. So began our trust. May it stand ever unbroken - until the ice of Ocanthus melts, and the Word may again be freely spoken.
Umbriel rubbed her forehead. Blackfrost had been much in her thoughts for the past day, as she prepared herself for the final stage of her journey to Sigil, and it was impossible to remember her childhood cabal without recalling the soft, dry voice of Loremaster Yeylea reciting the catechism that was the first lesson the little ones learned. Those last words had opened every meal and every formal meeting for the first two decades of her life. That was long ago, now, in another world, and she was no longer who she had been. Still, the memories lingered.
Blackfrost had always sent some of its children to the Cabal Macabre - those who were too restless to submit easily to the rigid disciplines of the Eclipse, or gifted enough that the Jasidans regarded their skills as wasted within the peaceful confines of the cabal. Umbriel had been both, a high-spirited, mind-hungry girl blessed with a boundless curiosity and an intelligence as sharp as the razor-edged Ocanthan ice.
Fifty years later, the restlessness and high spirits had faded. Bitter experience had taught her the value of caution and care, of subtlety over raw power. Of course, exhibitionism still had its place. Sometimes a statement had to be made. And the hunger for knowledge - that would never be slaked while she lived.
She had served the Ruby Sorceress for half a century: teaching apprentices at the Cabal and in strongholds on other planes, researching new spells and the nature of magic, exploring far-flung libraries and old ruins to seek out forgotten lore, and otherwise serving the Lady's interests. But for this last mission she'd been given little guidance, only a final goal. That it was a goal that marched closely with her own desires... she supposed the Lady had done that deliberately. High risk and high reward, success or oblivion. The Lady of Book and Bone, goddess of magic and death, would expect no less.
So be it. She touched the ruby pin at her throat and murmured a brief devotion as she stepped through the portal.

A memory from Umbriel's youth, when she first went to the Cabal Macabre:


Umbriel stands before the gateway in the dome that protects Blackfrost. She is motionless and her face is serene, but she radiates a quivering eagerness leashed only by an effort of will. Her sleeveless tunic and knee-length pants are bright crimson, a splash of color contrasting sharply with the white garb of the others her age. Her strawberry-blonde hair is woven into a long, thick braid that hangs past the small of her back. A low hum of whispering from the watchers fills the air.
Yeylea walks forward and hands a bundle of scrolls to the young illumian.
"These are your charge," he says, his voice soft but carrying to the edges of the courtyard. "Deliver them into the hand of the Seneschal. You have one hour from this moment to prepare yourself and make the journey."
Umbriel nods respectfully and inclines her head. Then she turns and runs toward the gate.
She hears a gasp behind her, a stifled cry from someone in the crowd, but she does not stop. She leaps gracefully through the invisible boundary where the bladestorm begins, and as she feels the first prickle of the frosty air, she speaks a single word of power.
The shards of ice whirl around her in an intricate, ever-changing dance, but they do not touch her. The cold kisses her exposed skin, but it will not harm her in this short trip. She runs lightly across the dark ice, graceful as the wind, and does not halt until she arrives, breathless and laughing, in the clear air that surrounds the Lady's home.
The spell she had used had not been one taught to the children of the cabal. She had found its greater version hidden deep in the library's records of the initial arrival in Ocanthus, but it had been beyond her powers to cast. It had taken much of her free time over the past few months to reduce it to this more manageable, less complex variant. But it had been worth it, to hear the gasps from her peers, to overcome the challenge by adroit use of the single perfect spell.
She takes a moment to catch her breath and brush the dark powdery flecks of ice from her tunic and pants. She looks up at the castle, glowing with an eerie bone-white light. This is where she will prove herself, and come to realize her full potential, as she could never do in the quiet, unchanging, confining security of Blackfrost. Within waits knowledge, and power, and glory... and danger too, and pain, no doubt. But even so, she wants it all.
She walks through the great double doors.

Receiving her current mission:

Umbriel enters the audience chamber and drops into a deep curtsey before the ice weird, her black robes pooling on the floor around her as she sinks to one knee.
"As I have been summoned, Seneschal, so do I come," she greets the weird, eyes lowered to the smooth bone-pale floor.
"Rise, Blackfrost Umbriel," the Seneschal says, her voice cold and haughty as always. It is her nature; Umbriel does not take offense. "The Lady is pleased with you."
Umbriel rises and stands motionless, her folded hands pale against the utter blackness of her robes. "I am honored, Seneschal."
The ice weird nods in response, a small smile curving her frost-blue lips. "Yes. You are." She lifts her chin. "Your kin have also served well, for centuries now. Consequently, the Taker desires more followers from among your people." She pauses, regarding Umbriel steadily. "Blackfrost will remain as it is, of course. Our mistress understands the nature of the Eclipse oaths, and would not risk the revelation of the sanctuary. But there are many illumian cabals scattered across the planes. Our Lady desires that Her worship become more prevalent among them."
Umbriel frowns. "I am hardly the best evangelist you could find, Seneschal," she says carefully. "My skills are in research, in the teaching of magic, the gathering of lore, and in spells that reshape the physical world - not in proselytizing, in winning minds and souls to a cause. I know my limitations."
"Indeed. But for the moment, it is information that is needed. Groundwork that must be laid. You do know, do you not, of Illumian cabals that do not follow the path of the Eclipse?"
"Of course." The barest shade of irritation colors Umbriel's voice. "The loremaster of Blackfrost is conscientious and I would not forget his teachings."
The ice weird tilts her head. "Just so. The question was rhetorical. But so it goes: the Lady wishes you to work toward the establishment of a chain cabal in her service. It is hoped that in future the chain cabal will both advance the Lady's interests, and provide an avenue to recruit more Illumians to our faith, without risking Blackfrost."
Umbriel raises an eyebrow. "With me as the sole link. I am glad to see you trust my discretion."
"You have earned trust." The weird shrugs, ripples spreading across the surface of her icy pool. "If you have not betrayed your vows in fifty years of walking the planes, She sees no reason that it should be a problem now."
"Where is this putative cabal to be located?"
"Have you ever been to the city called Sigil?"
Umbriel stiffens. "No. I have not. My instructors told me that the Lady of Pain has powers that the gods themselves might fear, and that egress from the city except through portals is impossible. Consequently, it should be regarded as a trap, and avoided where possible." She pauses, and asks, "Has that situation changed?"
"No. But you are very unlikely to draw the attention of the Lady of Pain or other powerful beings within Sigil - at least, unless you make a serious mistake - and you have the ability to deal with more commonplace threats. It is not necessary that the chain cabal should be in Sigil itself - although if you feel that would be possible, such a site would be useful - but the city provides access to a very large number of planes, and there will be travelers there from all over the Wheel. It should provide a good starting point for you to seek out potential locations, and perhaps possible recruits, while sending back information on events in Sigil itself. And of course, you should remain alert for hints of any stolen works from the Sublime Library, or new spells and lore more generally, as well as any developments that would threaten our mistress' interests."
"Of course," Umbriel replies, only a hint of irony in her tone. The reward for a task well done is a harder task... but she feels a hint of excitement stirring in an old and dusty corner of her soul. It will be challenging, certainly, and dangerous, but to found a new cabal: that would be a worthy legacy. And Sigil! She has read of the city, of course, but never thought to see it with her own eyes. She bows deeply to the ice weird. "I thank you for conveying our mistress' commands, Seneschal."
The weird inclines her head, and replies, "Go and prepare yourself, Blackfrost Umbriel. I will look forward to hearing your reports."

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-07, 04:45 AM
I would not mind a GMW on my flail and if you have left, I could use one on my bow. I am really bad at archery, though, so please have that bow have the lowest priority on the list. :smallsmile:

Cespenar
2011-06-07, 07:11 AM
Hmm, seems I'm a little bit late. Nevertheless, on to the essentials!

Color: Dark Green

Background:Rhion's life could be summarized as one word: Adaptation. To put it from the start, his father was a hermit. Yes, a hermit's life is supposed to be lived alone, and this one was going to prove no exception, if he hadn't met a lovely young woman, looking for a cure for her strange illness. The illness was cured alright, but it seems that they both needed a bit more than a cure, which is why they ended up as lovers, and eventually, parents. Rhion was born into a world of motion. By the time her mother gave birth to him, they weren't staying still at one place, but rather spending their whole life travelling, and this didn't change when the little child who they named Rhion joined the "family". It wasn't too easy for him, since children tend to search for aspects of safety and security, and neither had a place in the ever-journeying family of Rhion, at least not in their usual forms. Thus, he did what he had to do, and adapted. Then, as what he was adapted to has changed, he adapted again. And again. But he discovered what adaptation really meant later, when he was 17, as his father who was already well aged, passed away. He understood that one cannot adapt to his new conditions by simply observing these conditions and accepting them as the truth. One adapts (and makes life easier to live) by seeing the world as a whole, and accepting it as a whole, both the negative and positive parts.

With these thoughts Rhion tried to get over his father's death, and gave a "radical" decision, in which he took her mother and persuaded her to settle down at the first town that they'll come upon. She didn't resist, and they took solace in the safety of a community for once in a while, which was a "different change" than they have had before. Rhion tried to take care of them both by using what healing skills he learned from his father for the townsfolk, and to his surprise, he was received rather well by the people, who were apparently in need of a healer in town.

Rhion was content to live there for the rest of his life, if it weren't for one Godsmen monk that was passing through the town. Fate brought them together, and the man told Rhion all about the faction and its philosophy, insisting that his life would be a waste if he would stay here forever, what he *should* do is to ever being in motion, striving for the maximum of his potential. To his surprise, his mother agreed with this idea wholeheartedly, saying that she would rather let him go than keep him with her and prevent him for what he might become. Rhion was both deeply moved and intrigued by the words of his mother and the monk, and after thorough considerations, he decided to heed the monk's word and follow him, to wherever the road leads.

It's been almost twenty years now that the monk has passed away too, but his ideas live with and within Rhion, guiding and shaping his actions this whole time. And his path, while being as long as his own life, finally brought him to Sigil, where gateways into each and every world should exist, if one were to believe the rumors. The perfect place for a traveler.

Also, to summarize, Rhion is a multi-purpose fellow. He has low level utility spells, a lot of forms he can wildshape into, passable stealth skills, can follow tracks, can heal a little, etc.

Toliudar
2011-06-07, 08:28 AM
-Is there someone in the group who considers themselves a skill-based character? Perhaps Godot? I have the Share Talents spell from PHB2, which when cast on me and another person, gives us both +2 on all skills in which any one of us has a rank. I have every Int-based skill except Forgery covered, plus Concentration.

Godot is, not surprisingly, strongly focused on social skills, and has bardic knack, so is moderately good at everything. I figured our tigress and druid could take care of the hunting/scouting, you the knowledge skills, and so on.

As noted in the recruitment thread, Godot has the vow of nonviolence feat. It's a fairly important part of her character, and also provides a huge boost to the power of her enchantments. The only imposition it places on other players is that you not kill helpless opponents. With a strongly good-focused group, I'm hoping we could work towards that as an ideal anyway. However, I normally avoid the kind of character that forces other people to adjust their play style, so this is new territory for me. If any of you have major reservations about this, let me know and I'll adjust the build.

Edit: Godot would also gratefully accept a GMW onto her dagger, although any situation that sees her using it for anything more than opening a letter is probably one in which things have already gone horribly, horribly wrong.

Cespenar
2011-06-07, 08:43 AM
Rhion would be totally okay with not killing helpless opponents. Actually, any good character worth his/her salt shouldn't kill helpless opponents anyway, barring some extremely specific cases, like, say, killing off Joker instead of putting him behind bars again, knowing that he would get out somehow and endanger all sorts of lives. :smallwink:

SPoD
2011-06-07, 09:47 AM
The only imposition it places on other players is that you not kill helpless opponents.

As long as we can kill in the heat of battle, and we're not required to take them prisoner in the first place, it shouldn't be a problem.

Are there any exceptions? Demons, devils, undead, constructs? Presumably summoned monsters that are going to go "poof!" at 0 hp instead of actually die don't count.

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-07, 10:02 AM
Aye, mercy is weaved in the fabric of my character, being a paladin, but you'll find it hard to convince me to let an undead live :smallconfused: exist.

Toliudar
2011-06-07, 10:06 AM
Hard to picture a helpless undead. Turning is extremely temporary, and it's not like imprisonment/rehabilitation is likely to change their mind. Although it would be fun to try for an epic diplomacy check on the BBEG vampire...

SPoD
2011-06-07, 10:12 AM
Hard to picture a helpless undead. Turning is extremely temporary, and it's not like imprisonment/rehabilitation is likely to change their mind. Although it would be fun to try for an epic diplomacy check on the BBEG vampire...

Yes, but if there WERE a helpless undead, would it be a problem? Hold Undead springs to mind.

Also, you didn't answer about demons, devils, and constructs. Hunting demons and devils is a big part of my character's job, so it will probably be an issue if I can't dispatch them, helpless or not.

Ryuuk
2011-06-07, 10:24 AM
Togo, thanks for having given my submission a place in the game, but I think it may be best if I drop out now. I'm already in a few other games and I'm finding my free time limited at the moment. Apart from the two IC samples with Dime, I never got around to formalizing the background, so Belze seems kind of distant at the moment.

Still, it looks like you have a good sized party as is, so good luck guys.

Toliudar
2011-06-07, 10:26 AM
I don't have any kind of authoritative answer, SPoD. Here's the relevant text from Book of Exalted Deeds:
Special: To fulfill your vow, you must not cause harm or suffering to humanoid or monstrous humanoid foes. You may not deal real damage or ability damage to such foes through spells or weapons, though you may deal nonlethal damage. You may not target them with death effects, disintegrate, pain effects, or other spells that have the immediate potential to cause death, suffering, or great harm.

Your purity is so great that any ally of yours who slays a helpless or defenseless foe within 120 feet of you feels great remorse. Your ally takes a Ė1 morale penalty on his attack rolls for 1 hour per your character level. For each helpless foe slain, the attack penalty increases by 1, to a maximum
equal to your character level. The duration of the increased penalty starts from the latest slaying.

You may ask your allies to give you an oath that a helpless foe will not be
slain. If the oath is sworn, an ally who later breaks the oath takes the
penalty for doing so as if you were present. If you leave a helpless foe to be killed by your allies, you have broken your vow. You may ask a defeated
creature to give you an oath of surrender or noninterference in exchange for its life. If the creature breaks this oath to you, you can allow your allies to deal with the creature as they see fit without breaking their oaths or your vow of nonviolence.

If you intentionally break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it. If you break your vow as a result of magical compulsion, you lose the benefit of this feat until you perform a suitable penance and receive an atonement spell.

Again, I'm not fond of the heavy-handedness of the feat, but it was such a good fit for this character, I wanted to try to make it work. I'm NOT asking all of you for any kind of oath, but Godot would have made her feelings known on the journey to this point.

Mechanically, the passage seems to be referencing humanoid & monstrous humanoid opponents specifically, but it's not completely clear. Certainly, that makes it a much more functional mechanic (taken to its extreme, the feat could be read to force the entire group into a life of monastic veganism). Togo, would you be okay with making this specific to humanoids/monstrous humanoids? Voluntarily, Godot's going to be trying not to kill anybody, but being able to loosen the strictures on golems, undead, illithid, etc would be a big help.

SPoD
2011-06-07, 10:32 AM
Mechanically, the passage seems to be referencing humanoid & monstrous humanoid opponents specifically, but it's not completely clear. Certainly, that makes it a much more functional mechanic (taken to its extreme, the feat could be read to force the entire group into a life of monastic veganism). Togo, would you be okay with making this specific to humanoids/monstrous humanoids? Voluntarily, Godot's going to be trying not to kill anybody, but being able to loosen the strictures on golems, undead, illithid, etc would be a big help.

Yeah, that's why I asked, because I read the feat first and was left confused. The first paragraph references humanoids/monstrous humanoids, but the rest of the paragraphs just say, "foe."

Vow of Peace does explicitly make you a monastic vegan--that bit with straining water to avoid hurting insects is taken from real practices--which would sort of imply that this feat doesn't.

Cespenar
2011-06-07, 10:38 AM
"Rules As Intended" probably means humanoid/monstrous humanoid for the allies part as well. Otherwise, stating that in the first place wouldn't make any sense. I suggest this interpretation.

Toliudar
2011-06-07, 10:39 AM
Exactly SPoD. There's a reason I didn't take the Vow of Peace feat.

Although I've always wanted to try a two-player game with Vow-of-everything Druid and Bard-or-Sorcerer, just to see how they deal with the challenges of an adventure without actually hurting people. Fun to see them go up against a warren of kobolds and come out with a trade agreement and the key to the city, for example.

Obrysii
2011-06-07, 10:46 AM
Xiuhcoatl (Androse) has the heart of a paladin, as any Gold Dragon has - he will not kill innocent people, nor helpless people. He will always try to parley first (as he's done so far in the IC thread), and only as a last resort use his full power.

He is something of a wand mage, though presently he does not have many wands - due to his young age and the fact he was just sent to the Planes by his family.

Ifni
2011-06-07, 11:17 AM
Umbriel is a (Lawful Neutral) pragmatist: if you need this, then provided she feels it's worthwhile to travel with you, she'll deal. She's worked with a very wide range of people (/creatures/things), several of whom had bizarre codes of conduct: she's learned to adapt.

She's not eager to kill helpless foes anyway, but there are a few exceptions. She would be very strongly against letting beings that embody Chaos (such as demons) go free with an oath of non-interference, because she knows from lore and long personal experience that they'll break it as soon as they find it convenient. Also, she will grumble a bit if forced to keep githyanki alive. The humanoid + monstrous humanoid interpretation should be fairly unobjectionable for her.

(That said, if Umbriel does occasionally take the penalty, it's not that bad; a penalty to her attack rolls doesn't really hurt her much, although it would make it harder for her to keep disintegrating people :smalltongue:)

Current GMW list:
-Saffron's swordbow
-Derk's flail and bow
-Umbriel's sickle
-Godot's dagger
Total = 5
You guys need more backup weapons :smalltongue:

Note that monk unarmed strikes count as manufactured weapons, so I can stick GMW on those as well; unfortunately I don't think I can do natural weapons, so our gold dragon is a bit out of luck :smallfrown:

As for Share Talents, I'll think about it and post later today: I'm thinking of linking myself and Saffron and doing another link between Godot and Rhion (I have it as a spontaneous spell, and it's only L2), but let me know if you have other suggestions.

Cespenar
2011-06-07, 11:29 AM
What's Share Talents, if you don't mind me asking?

SPoD
2011-06-07, 11:39 AM
You guys need more backup weapons :smalltongue:

I bought a swordbow so I wouldn't NEED backup weapons! :smalltongue:

Toliudar
2011-06-07, 11:46 AM
Share Talents is a quirky spell from PH2 that links two characters, and gives each a +2 bonus to any skill for which one of them has at least one rank. Since Godot has ranks in 23 different skills - including all of the trained only ones - she'd be a great candidate for this, and she'd be very happy to pair up with Umbriel on it.

I just noticed that THEchanger hasn't posted here yet, but has been on the boards. I'll fire off a quick PM.

Ifni
2011-06-07, 11:48 AM
What's Share Talents, if you don't mind me asking?

PHB2 spell, L2, I can cast it spontaneously using my beguiler spell slots. It lasts 10 minutes/level (so just over 3 hours per casting, for me), it links two willing creatures, and both creatures get a +2 bonus on any skill checks for which either character has 1+ ranks in the skill. Furthermore, if you don't have a skill trained but your link-buddy does, you can roll checks with that skill even if it's usually trained-only.

EDIT: Aaaand ninja'ed :smallsmile: I'm thinking about doing two separate links to share the happiness, and linking Umbriel with Saffron just because Saffron might (?) be more willing than Godot to come stand next to trapped doors with me and give me assists on Disable Device checks, but I'm happy to shift the pairings around if that makes more sense. Gotta go now, but will be back later.

Toliudar
2011-06-07, 12:12 PM
EDIT: Aaaand ninja'ed :smallsmile: I'm thinking about doing two separate links to share the happiness, and linking Umbriel with Saffron just because Saffron might (?) be more willing than Godot to come stand next to trapped doors with me and give me assists on Disable Device checks, but I'm happy to shift the pairings around if that makes more sense. Gotta go now, but will be back later.

*Laughing* Fair enough. Although Godot actually has ranks (well, rank, but with Bardic Knack, aid another becomes an auto-succeed) in Disable Device, and so might be a more useful buddy in such things.

Frankly, though, at this level, most traps seem to either be speed bumps or major puzzles. A trapped door is often more safely dealt with using a disintegrate than a high skill check.

SPoD
2011-06-07, 12:16 PM
I don't know that I have much use for bonuses to the Int-based skills anyway, so if you want to cast it on Godot, that's fine with me.

THEChanger
2011-06-07, 01:44 PM
Sup, dudes and dudettes. My appologizes for lack of posting. There's been crazy stuff. Finishing up Driver's Ed, finals coming soon, etc.
But, I'm here now! And ready for the beating of inter-planar...


As noted in the recruitment thread, Godot has the vow of nonviolence feat.

...Oh. Okay then. Yeah, Simon can handle that. Just, keep an eye around anything Undead and/or Evil Outsider-ish. They make him rather angry.
Autopsibiofeeder already got my sheet, so I'll re-post Background stuff.
ďNow those memories come back to haunt me. They haunt me like a curse.Ē -Bruce Springsteen

ďThey say that Darkstone can twist a personís thoughts, eat a personís mind, pull at a manís soul. They say that Darkstone is the essence of evil bound to rock. But we know better. We know what Darkstone does. It is a depository, nothing more.
So, what would happen, if we were to use that depository, and give it life? Force a soul within it, and give the soul control. It would be the ultimate warrior. A warriorís soul, within a body of stone.
They would be unstoppable.Ē -Father Carlos, in his treatise on the production of Darkstone Adepts.

5 Elements
1) Cleric of Heironeous, one of the ones who goes out and smashes evil into the dust.

2) Very protective of his companions, to the point of sacrificing himself for their sake.

3) Agreed to an experimental procedure, wherein his soul would be bound to a Darkstone statue of himself, to afford better defenses in the fight against evil.

4) Experiment went awry, and Simon was placed in a deep sleep for a very long time.

5) Upon waking, the temple to Heironeous had been abandoned, the artifacts left within. Simon took up the weapons and magic items he could find, and left to do battle once more. He made his way to Sigil, the City at the Center of the Realms, to be in a better place to seek out evil-doers.



2 Goals
1) Simon, in addition to fulfilling the orders of Heironeous, wishes to figure out what exactly happened to his brothers.

2) Simon needs to come to terms with the fact that his friends are probably dead. In fact, they almost certainly are. Itís been a very long time.


2 Secrets
1) (Known)Simon knows that the Darkstone material, while excellent for the storage of souls, is also not exactly a good thing. Itís actually a special stone from the Plane of Gehenna, which means its very essence is stained with evil. Simonís not exactly sure what that will entail for him and those around him, but heís sure its not good.

2) (Unknown)Simon Shadowstalker is not actually the Simon he remembers. Sort of. You see, the Darkstone the temple of Heironeous had obtained already had a soul within it. The residentís soul has not been determined, but Simonís soul was lost in the ritual. Instead, the remnants of his mind were imprinted upon the soul which was already residing within the stone. No magic thus far has managed to cure this, but if such a spell were devised, the results could be disastrous.


3 People
1) Rachel Stargazer-
A bar-maid in the Boarís Head tavern in Sigil, Rachel is a Zenythri, one of those oddly Lawful-Aligned almost humans. Rachel and Simon maintain a friendship full of biting sarcasm and clever come-backs, but she would always come to Simonís aid in a pinch. She has a minor bit of magic, and is very proficient in the use of a bottle as a weapon.

2) Micheal Wrathmaker
Micheal is a cleric of Hextor. Thatís about all that needs to be said here. Simon and Micheal realize they could never defeat each other in a head-on battle. So, they maintain a non-aggression pact. As long as they stay on their sides of the city, and Micheal doesnít do too much evil, they stay out of each otherís way. But both plot to find a way to wipe the other from existence. Micheal is a vampire.

3) Ezekiel
The man known only as Ezekiel has followed Simon since his transformation. The robed watcher always carries a notebook with him, and an ever-moving pen writes as its master watches. He never interferes, he never speaks. Occasionally, he motions. Strangely, Ezekiel does not show himself to many other people besides Simon. Whenever Simon goes to show someone the man, Ezekiel has disappeared.


3 Memories
1) Simon remembers his first steps outside after awaking. It was a deeply disturbing event. Simonís new body prevents him from really feeling sensations of touch. That was the second time Simon wept in his life.

2) The first time Simon wept was early in his career as a crusader in the name of Heironeous. He was working with one of his brothers, George. They were exterminating a nest of undead. George was taken by a vampire. Simon could do nothing to save George. By the time Simon found them, George was a Spawn. Simon did what he had too. Simon never worked along side his brothers in the crusades again.

3) Simon hates what heís become, and what he fears he will become. He feels that his humanity is slowly slipping away from him. As such, he makes every effort to appear as human as possible. Sadly, this just makes him seems awkward. When he accidentally sticks his hand in a fire, it stays there until he realizes that his hand should be burning, when he quickly pulls it back. Stuff like that. Itís just sad, really.

Toliudar
2011-06-07, 02:39 PM
Togo: Just a quick clarification: are all of us looking for the gate to Sigil? Should we assume that none of us currently possess the means to get there?

Togo
2011-06-07, 02:46 PM
Togo, would you be okay with making this specific to humanoids/monstrous humanoids? Voluntarily, Godot's going to be trying not to kill anybody, but being able to loosen the strictures on golems, undead, illithid, etc would be a big help.

Yes, mechanically it applies to humanoids and monstrous humanoids. The mechanics are quite harsh enough already.

Golems aren't alive. Mindless undead aren't alive. Intelligent undead technically aren't, but may try to convince you otherwise.

Whether you can sucessfully reconcile preserving the life of humanoids, and killing anything extraplanar or funny-looking out of hand is another question of course :smallbiggrin:, but it's a role-playing question for you, not a mechanics question for the feat.

Togo
2011-06-07, 02:53 PM
Togo: Just a quick clarification: are all of us looking for the gate to Sigil? Should we assume that none of us currently possess the means to get there?

Yes. The only known way to get into or out of Sigil is through a portal. If something else would work, you don't know about it. By reputation, planar travel, wish and similar and even direct divine intervention don't work, although you'd have to wonder if anyone has ever really tried.

SPoD
2011-06-07, 03:01 PM
Yes. The only known way to get into or out of Sigil is through a portal. If something else would work, you don't know about it. By reputation, planar travel, wish and similar and even direct divine intervention don't work, although you'd have to wonder if anyone has ever really tried.

So, while we may know of other portals, they're nowhere near where we are right now, or they're guarded by people less friendly than the Athar...would that be a fair assessment?

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-07, 04:44 PM
Obrysii, do I know you are a dragon? Have you been open about that? I have been for sure open, proud as I am, about my heritage and consider myself a dragon as well....or at least as close as one can get. You will for sure have noticed it.

It would make quite a difference if I knew that about you or not when it comes to my attitude towards you (which is positive either way, of course). Did you tell the group at large? Did you inform me?

SPoD
2011-06-07, 04:53 PM
I'm a little confused on that as well. Especially since the name being used to refer to the character has switched back and forth between Androse and Xiuhcoatl.

I'd prefer that if we don't all know that he's a dragon that we avoid mentioning it in casual description or using his dragon name. It'll just make things easier to keep straight.

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-07, 05:11 PM
Aye. What made me wonder for real was Godot's remark, as he called us 'retinue'. I loved it in one sense that that is quite what I would do as a bard. However, Derk would be willing to pose as a retinue of a Gold Dragon but being the retinue of someone claiming to be some prince of something would sting his pride a bit.

Just as Xiuhcoatl was flattered by the event due to his pride, Derk has his pride as well :smallwink:.

Toliudar
2011-06-07, 05:24 PM
Godot was just playing with the fact that 'Androse' spoke up first, and presents in a grand manner. I was NOT assuming that we'd know that he's a gold dragon, although passive spot checks, scent (as already alluded to IC) etc make long-term disguises actually quite difficult in D&D.

It was also a way to avoid the tiresome 'and these are seven posts of us each introducing ourselves' round.

Whether Derk is or is not offended by her not-entirely-serious presentation, I doubt that there's anyway Godot would know he'd be miffed. So now Derk gets to be miffed and correct the situation, or just go along with it, as you see fit.

Obrysii
2011-06-07, 05:25 PM
Would it be inappropriate that I want this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltcMueAFEl0) to happen with "Prince" Androse when they get to Sigil?

He does have a marble elephant..

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-07, 06:01 PM
Godot was just playing with the fact that 'Androse' spoke up first, and presents in a grand manner. I was NOT assuming that we'd know that he's a gold dragon, although passive spot checks, scent (as already alluded to IC) etc make long-term disguises actually quite difficult in D&D.

It was also a way to avoid the tiresome 'and these are seven posts of us each introducing ourselves' round.

Whether Derk is or is not offended by her not-entirely-serious presentation, I doubt that there's anyway Godot would know he'd be miffed. So now Derk gets to be miffed and correct the situation, or just go along with it, as you see fit.

I totally agree with you. I even liked the way you handled it, but knowing about the golden dragon just alters the way Derk views it, mostly because the whole dragon thing means a lot to him. So, that's it, basically. Derk may be miffed, but he wouldn't act on it right now...in the end he is a gentleman at heart. It is just that this subtle detail means a lot to him, so that is why I was wondering :smallsmile:. It had not much to do with Godot's action per se, he just triggered it.

Cespenar
2011-06-07, 06:15 PM
Would it be inappropriate that I want this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltcMueAFEl0) to happen with "Prince" Androse when they get to Sigil?

He does have a marble elephant..

Androse certainly has the wealth to pull that, as do any other level 15 adventurer. :smallbiggrin:

Togo
2011-06-07, 06:18 PM
So, while we may know of other portals, they're nowhere near where we are right now, or they're guarded by people less friendly than the Athar...would that be a fair assessment?

Sure. You know of a few others. There's a fairly well-known one in the first circle of Hell, for example. There are several on the Astral that are well known, but finding them would take a while. There's one in the City of Brass, but they charge a lot for using it, usually in the form of personal servitude. There are probably at least a hundred or more, but it's a big universe, they're not generally in convenient locations, and most aren't well known.

The nearest likely one is in Bedlam, the city that forms a gateway to Pandemonium. There's reputed to one in the Correctional College there. So you could travel to Bedlam (a few days to just under two weeks), and then try and break into a madhouse run by fiends. Going to an inn with decent wine and having to listen to philosophy for up to an hour sounded like the better choice at the time.

Togo
2011-06-07, 06:29 PM
He certainly has the wealth to pull that, as any other level 15 adventurer can. :smallbiggrin:

You guys are important people. You have the capability to create a parade because you're important enough to have parades. Granted there is always someone more important out there than you are, like Jasmine and Jafar, but if they don't bother to get the elephants and golden camels, that's their look out.

The most obvious problem with the scenario is that there isn't really a palace to go to in Sigil. You could parade around, but there isn't an obvious destination. Might be an idea if you ever end up visiting someone you want to impress though. :smallamused:

Ifni
2011-06-07, 06:47 PM
Umbriel is quite pleased with the "retinue" cover, it means she doesn't need to come up with a lie as to what she's actually doing :smallwink: Similarly, while Umbriel herself would not be parading, she would be very happy to assist others in a parade that would draw attention to them and away from her :smallbiggrin:

Right at the moment though, she's more interested in this planar rift business. Togo, in case you missed it, I've been rolling Knowledge (The Planes) and Spellcraft checks in my spoilerblocks in the IC thread: I also have Arcane Sight up now, looking for magic in the area or on our new friends.

With Share Talents, let's just do a link between Umbriel and Godot for the moment, but Cespenar, Saffron (or anyone else), do let me know if you'd like to set up a link as well. Remember it's +2 to all your trained skills, you don't actually need to have a synergistic link-partner to benefit, although of course it helps :smallsmile:

EDIT: I'm not sure if Umbriel is close enough to hear any of this conversation: if yes, are there any Knowledge checks I should be making for the various names?

SPoD
2011-06-07, 11:06 PM
The most obvious problem with the scenario is that there isn't really a palace to go to in Sigil. You could parade around, but there isn't an obvious destination.

That's their new tourist slogan right there:

Sigil, the City Where the Parades Never Stop!*







* Because our city is on the inside of a donut.

GuesssWho
2011-06-08, 12:50 AM
Togo, thanks for having given my submission a place in the game, but I think it may be best if I drop out now. I'm already in a few other games and I'm finding my free time limited at the moment. Apart from the two IC samples with Dime, I never got around to formalizing the background, so Belze seems kind of distant at the moment.

Still, it looks like you have a good sized party as is, so good luck guys.

So, does this mean I can join?

SPoD
2011-06-08, 11:59 AM
Hey, Obrysii, I was talking to myself and I'm nowhere near you or the humans. I'm sneaking around a quarter mile away, investigating the planar breach. Not only shouldn't you have heard me, but since I'm hidden-in-plain-sight, talking directly to me will make it seem like you're talking to yourself, since none of the humans even know I exist yet. Any chance you can edit your post to reflect that?

Frankly, unless you can beat a Hide check of 55 (and blindsight doesn't work against me), you shouldn't know where I am right now. :smalltongue:

Obrysii
2011-06-08, 12:31 PM
....I made a mistake. Sorry?

SPoD
2011-06-08, 12:38 PM
....I made a mistake. Sorry?

It's cool. I'm not upset, I just wanted to fix it before the NPCs start talking to me, thus ruining my opportunity for sneaking around. :smallsmile:

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-08, 04:21 PM
Obrysii, do I know you are a dragon? Have you been open about that? I have been for sure open, proud as I am, about my heritage and consider myself a dragon as well....or at least as close as one can get. You will for sure have noticed it.

It would make quite a difference if I knew that about you or not when it comes to my attitude towards you (which is positive either way, of course). Did you tell the group at large? Did you inform me?

We still haven't resolved this issue, I think? ... or have we?

Obrysii
2011-06-08, 05:50 PM
We still haven't resolved this issue, I think? ... or have we?

No, we have. I deleted the part dealing with his character.

Toliudar
2011-06-08, 07:11 PM
Sorry, I'm especially dense today. Does that mean that we DO know that you're a gold dragon, or that we don't know?

Togo
2011-06-08, 07:57 PM
So, does this mean I can join?

I don't see why not. I'm assuming you don't normally go around looking like a tentacle nightmare? It might be worth working out with these guys what they've seen of you thus far.

SPoD
2011-06-08, 11:22 PM
No, we have. I deleted the part dealing with his character.

He meant the issue with whether or not you've told us that you're a gold dragon.

Also, I'm a woman.

SPoD
2011-06-08, 11:30 PM
Togo, Re: my IC spoiler:
How far above where they are standing for the garlic sausage smell? Like, within reach, or do I need to fly? If I need to fly, would it be fair to say that the portal is where it would be if it had been on the second or third floor of the inn?

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-09, 01:14 AM
He meant the issue with whether or not you've told us that you're a gold dragon.


Aye :smallsmile:.

I have a two day conference coming up now, so I won't be posting untill friday 5pm-ish (Paris time).

GuesssWho
2011-06-09, 04:40 AM
I don't see why not. I'm assuming you don't normally go around looking like a tentacle nightmare? It might be worth working out with these guys what they've seen of you thus far.

Yeah, she wears robes that hide her tentacles and gills and keeps her extra eyes closed. They might have seen her tail, though, that's pretty hard to hide. Not that it's that unusual, with a group like this.

And she will speak in . . . Lime.

Cespenar
2011-06-09, 04:50 AM
I start to like this thread and its slow journey into utter chaos. :smalltongue:

Ifni
2011-06-09, 12:02 PM
I start to like this thread and its slow journey into utter chaos. :smalltongue:

Bah! Umbriel disapproves! (in contrast, Ifni approves tremendously :smalltongue:)

Togo
2011-06-09, 12:29 PM
Togo, Re: my IC spoiler:

Saffron
How far above where they are standing for the garlic sausage smell? Like, within reach, or do I need to fly? If I need to fly, would it be fair to say that the portal is where it would be if it had been on the second or third floor of the inn?

It's about 20 feet up, give or take. Yes, it would be fair to say exactly that. :smallwink:

Togo
2011-06-09, 12:31 PM
Yeah, she wears robes that hide her tentacles and gills and keeps her extra eyes closed. They might have seen her tail, though, that's pretty hard to hide. Not that it's that unusual, with a group like this.

And she will speak in . . . Lime.

Excellent, feel free to chime in on the IC thread when you feel like it. We'll assume you were standing back for a bit, which is why noone has referred to you.

Togo
2011-06-10, 07:48 PM
A few thoughts

The party will, unless I severely misjudge the situation, shortly be arriving in Sigil. The obvious thing at that point is to have everyone have errands they want to run, contacts they want to meet and things they want to do. Logically, since everyone did their own characters, those activities won't involve the rest of the party. Rather than have the thread disintegrate into 8 single character epics, I'm going to try and keep the action on the party as a group. That means I'm going to try and keep things current when you arrive in the city, and it would really help if you stayed together, at least at first.

Later on there will (probably) be time for people to slip off and get things done on their own, but I intend to handle that off-camera for the most part, to keep the main game moving.


Sooner or later there is going to be some form of combat, and I've been thinking about the best way to make sure that doesn't drag. I'm thinking that the best way would be to have group initiative. Everyone rolls initiative, anyone who beats the monsters goes first, then the monsters then everyone acts again, then the monsters act again, and so on. In other words, ignore initiative differences within the party, and let people act in whatever order they happen to post in. I don't generally like group initiative, and of course that method would render people's initiative bonuses less notable, but it would still determine whether you or the bad guys went first.

Anyone see any problems with that?

GuesssWho
2011-06-10, 07:54 PM
Sounds good to me.

SPoD
2011-06-10, 08:04 PM
Anyone see any problems with that?

I'm in several PbP groups, and I think we all use group initiative. The only time it really matters is in the first round, like you said. So no problem here.

Also, I have no errands in Sigil, I'm here because I was told to come here. I'm working under the assumption that my mission will find me. :smallsmile:

Ifni
2011-06-10, 08:04 PM
Works for me! I agree with the group initiative, it really speeds up combat in PbP.

Umbriel's primary initial goal in Sigil is to learn a bit about what's currently going on in the city without getting into trouble, so tagging along with the more eye-catching members of the party makes sense for her. She's also quite intrigued by these chance-met companions, and especially wants to talk with Saffron about her plane-reading abilities. Getting in touch with any contacts can wait for later :smallwink:

GuesssWho
2011-06-10, 08:10 PM
Sthrerrbhna is just looking for somewhere that people won't throw rocks at her. She has a snake tail, gills, extra eyes and tentacles, so Sigil is about it on that score.

Toliudar
2011-06-10, 08:48 PM
I'm good with group initiative as well.

Cespenar
2011-06-11, 01:21 AM
Group initiative is fine by me as well. And Rhion, well, he's on a permanent vacation, and Sigil is said to be the tourist attraction, after all.

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-11, 03:56 AM
Group initiative is fine with me. Derk's only objective is to learn and since everything is new he will be fine doing anything. He is very loyal so tends to stick with the group anyway, if only to offer physical protection.

Obrysii
2011-06-11, 11:53 AM
Xiuhcoatl has sort of fallen into the leadership role, and beyond his goal of helping those who cannot help themselves, he simply is seeking a name for himself. His previous world is gone - or at least he believes it is. He has nothing but his path forward for himself.

Togo
2011-06-11, 08:14 PM
Testing....

*....***....*
*............*
*...........*
*...........n
*...........***************************
*....HH.............23............................ ..........
*....HH.....................................20.... 20......
*...........................................****** ***
*....:..1..:..2..:...:..3..:..4..:...19*
*....:..5..:..6..:...:..7..:..8..:......*
*........................................18*
*....:.9..:.10..:...:.11..:.12.:......*
*....:.13.:.14.:...:.15..:.16.:...17*
*..........................................*
*....***************21*.....*
*....*****************....* 22

Ifni
2011-06-11, 08:21 PM
Hmm, I'm sure that's not ominous at all :smallwink:

[roll0] Knowledge (The Planes) to see how much Umbriel knows about the Far Realms (and possibly whether she recognizes Sther as associated with them, depending on how much Sther is hiding her unusual features - Umbriel's Spot check is not anything special).

Obrysii
2011-06-11, 08:38 PM
Testing....

If you're trying to make battle maps, the best way to do that is by making them in Excel and then taking a screen shot, uploading to imgur, and posting the image in spoiler tags.

Togo
2011-06-11, 09:01 PM
I'd have thought that the fact that she directly referred to far realms, and her description of her appearance, would make the connection spottable, if not fairly obvious.

Note that there several theories as to where the Far Realms actually are. The most popular is that they are far away - outside the traditional great wheel cosmology - hence the name Far Realms. The second is that they exist in some of the spaces between the planes, and that any damage to the planar structure risks opening a portal to these mad and twisted realms. This is generally seen as less likely, because there are plenty of examples of planar rifts that don't do this. The last is that the Far Realms are actually all around us in some sense, but that most people aren't able to directly perceive them. This is a theory most often advanced by the mad, a group which includes a disturbingly high proportion of those who actually study the Far Realms in any detail.

Togo
2011-06-11, 09:11 PM
If you're trying to make battle maps, the best way to do that is by making them in Excel and then taking a screen shot, uploading to imgur, and posting the image in spoiler tags.

Hmm.. I'll have to play with that. For the moment I just wanted to give an idea of what the layout is.

Ifni
2011-06-11, 09:53 PM
I'd have thought that the fact that she directly referred to far realms, and her description of her appearance, would make the connection spottable, if not fairly obvious.

So I figured, I just didn't want to make assumptions, as she did say she was trying to hide her less-obvious traits (everything but the tail) :smallwink:

Thanks for the Far Realms info :smallsmile:

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-12, 07:43 AM
Also, Togo, I was just thinking about the group initiative thing. I would not mind at all if you would roll initiative for all players and NPC's. It would mean a bit more typing for you, but you can reuse the template, I guess. This could cut of in some cases 24 hours of real time waiting for all to have logged on and rolled initiative. Just a suggestion, don't know how you all feel about that?

GuesssWho
2011-06-12, 09:22 PM
My idea is that on a maps of the planes, the Far Realms are all the blank parts. :smallbiggrin:

Toliudar
2011-06-12, 09:42 PM
Obrysii, I'd like to thank you for giving me a really, really good straight line. If the fake flirtation (Godot REALLY means nothing by it) is annoying for either you or Derk, it can stop at a word.

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-13, 03:52 AM
It is fine with me, though I must admit that I went and double checked your gender on your sheet :smalltongue:

GuesssWho
2011-06-13, 06:07 PM
I should probably be added to the first IC post, by the way.

Togo
2011-06-13, 07:15 PM
Also, Togo, I was just thinking about the group initiative thing. I would not mind at all if you would roll initiative for all players and NPC's. It would mean a bit more typing for you, but you can reuse the template, I guess. This could cut of in some cases 24 hours of real time waiting for all to have logged on and rolled initiative. Just a suggestion, don't know how you all feel about that?

Good idea. Can anyone who's initiative modifier at present is different from the one on their character sheet let me know over the next day or so? It might be different because of spells, temporary effects, not being in your base form, etc. Can you also include initiative mods for any familiars, animal companions etc.

Ifni
2011-06-13, 07:24 PM
If I have one memorized, please assume Umbriel casts Nerveskitter (+5 init for all PCs) whenever the party rolls initiative.

For the GM:
Umbriel takes 10 on her CL check (using her Arcane Mastery feat) to get 29. Succeed or fail, she'll learn something interesting :smallwink:

Also, can you confirm my Contingency is okay? I basically want a Silence to go off (targeted on Umbriel) if the party is about to get hit with a Blasphemy/Holy Word/Word of Chaos/Dictum, or Wail of the Banshee. If possible, I'd also like to use my Extraordinary Spell Aim feat to exclude Umbriel from the effect of the spell, at the time that I cast it into the Contingency.

SPoD
2011-06-13, 07:27 PM
I'm a +8, Gylda is a +7 (unless I'm riding her when the battle starts, in which case she goes on my turn).

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-14, 02:11 AM
My initiative is +0, like a dragon's initiative is supposed to be.

Cespenar
2011-06-14, 05:57 AM
Rhion's initiative is -1. He usually arrives after the battle is done, and looks around all puzzled. :smalltongue:

Ifni
2011-06-14, 10:59 AM
Did Androse really mean Umbriel when he asked about expertise on wands with a teasing wink, or Godot? If he's wandering back over to Umbriel (who's waiting in line to get a drink from the beer wagon as an excuse for hanging around and inspecting people with Arcane Sight), she will probably be rather amused by that question :smalltongue:

Re "children", Umbriel is old enough to be Derk's mother - or grandmother, if she were human :smallwink: She's quite elderly (75, although illumians live longer than humans), at an age where she's noticeably slowing down physically, although her mind is sharper than ever. Her spells help with mobility and make her less frail, but don't really disguise her age.

EDIT: Familiar's initiative is +2, but she will rarely be an independent combatant.

Toliudar
2011-06-14, 12:05 PM
And Godot - gnomes in general, I'd suggest - is used to having her age underestimated by big'uns, who unconsciously equate short with childlike. So the "children" thing would just roll off her.

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-14, 04:57 PM
Just to explain, mainly towards Godot and Umbriel, Derk comes from a specific environment. He has always been a representative of the church, a knight and a man of authority. Everyone, including old(er) ladies :smallwink:, would adress him as sir, or lord or whatever title people deem worthy of a man of his stature. When a lady would fancy him, which happened seeing his charismatic appearance and his position, they would never be so straight forward about it. They might giggle and blush, laugh harder than his uptight sense of humour warranted or have their father put in effort to bring her together with him at some point.

He is just not used to be so 'common'. :smallsmile: By all means, however, feel free to make fun of him and embarrass him. He is far too polite to ever get upset.

Togo
2011-06-14, 05:35 PM
It is partly Derk's reserved formality that's made him a target for a certain chaos gnome. :smallwink:

Toliudar
2011-06-14, 05:57 PM
Just to explain, mainly towards Godot and Umbriel, Derk comes from a specific environment. He has always been a representative of the church, a knight and a man of authority. Everyone, including old(er) ladies :smallwink:, would adress him as sir, or lord or whatever title people deem worthy of a man of his stature. When a lady would fancy him, which happened seeing his charismatic appearance and his position, they would never be so straight forward about it. They might giggle and blush, laugh harder than his uptight sense of humour warranted or have their father put in effort to bring her together with him at some point.

He is just not used to be so 'common'. :smallsmile: By all means, however, feel free to make fun of him and embarrass him. He is far too polite to ever get upset.

That's...such a perfect foil for Godot, I don't think she could have created a better. Thank you. Thank you thank you thank you!

Cespenar
2011-06-14, 07:13 PM
Just to explain, mainly towards Godot and Umbriel, Derk comes from a specific environment. He has always been a representative of the church, a knight and a man of authority. Everyone, including old(er) ladies :smallwink:, would adress him as sir, or lord or whatever title people deem worthy of a man of his stature. When a lady would fancy him, which happened seeing his charismatic appearance and his position, they would never be so straight forward about it. They might giggle and blush, laugh harder than his uptight sense of humour warranted or have their father put in effort to bring her together with him at some point.

He is just not used to be so 'common'. :smallsmile: By all means, however, feel free to make fun of him and embarrass him. He is far too polite to ever get upset.

There's a limit of what Rhion can help, you know. He can't stop a self-assisted suicide. :smalltongue:

Togo
2011-06-14, 07:47 PM
If I have one memorized, please assume Umbriel casts Nerveskitter (+5 init for all PCs) whenever the party rolls initiative.

Nerveskitter only effects a single target. Unless you're chaining it or something?

For the GM:
Umbriel takes 10 on her CL check (using her Arcane Mastery feat) to get 29. Succeed or fail, she'll learn something interesting :smallwink:

Succeed. Nephira has faint illusion and abjuration magic cast upon her. She does have spellcasting or spell-like abilities, they are arcane, highest level available is 6th.

Also, can you confirm my Contingency is okay? I basically want a Silence to go off (targeted on Umbriel) if the party is about to get hit with a Blasphemy/Holy Word/Word of Chaos/Dictum, or Wail of the Banshee. If possible, I'd also like to use my Extraordinary Spell Aim feat to exclude Umbriel from the effect of the spell, at the time that I cast it into the Contingency.

Um.. not really. Contingency has a single trigger condition. I'm happy with Blasphemy/Holy Word/Word of Chaos/Dictum since that's variations on a single effect, and I'd also be happy with a theme, like word-based spells, or similar, but Wail is an entirely different and unrelated spell.

Also, contingency only allows for spells that affect the caster. If you use extraordinary spell aim to exclude yourself from the effect, then the spell no longer qualifies for use with contingency.

Ifni
2011-06-14, 11:37 PM
Nerveskitter only effects a single target. Unless you're chaining it or something?

Doh :smallredface: I should not post from airports on 3 hours of sleep... sorry. My only previous character who knew Nerveskitter had five levels of Warweaver by the time he got it, and I'd honestly forgotten it's normally a single-target spell.

Nerveskitter will be targeted on Godot, unless someone else has something they really want to do on the first round of combat? (e.g. lots of sneak attack / sudden strike dice, or a critical buff they need to get active before they do anything else)

For the GM:



Um.. not really. Contingency has a single trigger condition. I'm happy with Blasphemy/Holy Word/Word of Chaos/Dictum since that's variations on a single effect, and I'd also be happy with a theme, like word-based spells, or similar, but Wail is an entirely different and unrelated spell.

Again, apologies for an unclear post. I meant to ask if you could check the version on my character sheet, which is currently set to trigger on "sonic effects equivalent to a L7 or higher spell". What I said in the post was just a summary of my intent. If "equivalent to a L7 or higher spell" is too vague or disallowed for other reasons (I'm mostly just trying to make sure I also block spell-like or supernatural Blasphemy etc), I'm happy to rephrase to just Blasphemy / Holy Word / Dictum / Word of Chaos.


Also, contingency only allows for spells that affect the caster. If you use extraordinary spell aim to exclude yourself from the effect, then the spell no longer qualifies for use with contingency.

This one I can't blame on being sleep-deprived: I have a friend who uses a very similar combo (contingent ESA'ed Antimagic Field), and I didn't think he'd do something unambiguously wrong by RAW - but on checking the wording, you are clearly correct. ESA makes one creature "unaffected", Contingency requires it "affects your person". So noted. I will leave the Silence contingency in place, and be prepared to spend an action dismissing it if it triggers. Can I ESA it to leave another PC unaffected at the time of storing it in the contingency? If I do, provided that PC is entirely within the Silence field, will they be protected from the sonic attack?

Togo
2011-06-15, 04:10 AM
Answers in spoiler

Umbriel


Again, apologies for an unclear post. I meant to ask if you could check the version on my character sheet, which is currently set to trigger on "sonic effects equivalent to a L7 or higher spell". What I said in the post was just a summary of my intent. If "equivalent to a L7 or higher spell" is too vague or disallowed for other reasons (I'm mostly just trying to make sure I also block spell-like or supernatural Blasphemy etc), I'm happy to rephrase to just Blasphemy / Holy Word / Dictum / Word of Chaos.

No, ''strong' sonic effects is fine. Ordinarily I would hesitate to allow a contingency that acted as a divination (detecting the precise level of an incoming attack, something that you wouldn't ordinarily be able to do), but 7th level or higher happens to be the range for 'strong' magic', so that should be fine.


Can I ESA it to leave another PC unaffected at the time of storing it in the contingency? If I do, provided that PC is entirely within the Silence field, will they be protected from the sonic attack?

Um..

Ok - extraordinary spell aim allows you to alter the spells area of effect so as to leave one person unaffected. By my reading, that would only hold true after the spell was cast so long as they didn't subsequently move. (Happy to hear counter-arguements on that one.) The problem with using it with contingency is that you have to cast - and aim - the spell when you cast contingency. I'm happy for you to create a pocket the size of a PC at a certain distance and direction from you. Where that will be when the contingency is triggered, and whether anyone is in it, is another matter. In term of silence this would create a 'safe' zone where a spellcaster could move to and still cast safely.

Silence blocks sonic effects from moving through its area, so it would explicitly block wail, holy word etc. as these are spreads - they originate from a target point and spread outwards. It would also block sonic emenations, and missles (like sound lance) in the same way as if it were a solid object. Note that a person standing in a pocket would not be protected if the holy word or wail were targeted on their square for some reason.

Toliudar
2011-06-15, 07:46 AM
Nerveskitter will be targeted on Godot, unless someone else has something they really want to do on the first round of combat? (e.g. lots of sneak attack / sudden strike dice, or a critical buff they need to get active before they do anything else)

Thanks, Ifni! Godot's first action will indeed almost always be a group buff (Inspire courage +8, or another buff depending on circumstances) so having her go early in the count may indeed provide dividends for all.

Cespenar
2011-06-15, 09:34 AM
Inspire courage plus what now?

Toliudar
2011-06-15, 09:50 AM
Well, inspire courage isn't THAT hard to optimize. Bard 10, Song of the Heart, Words of Creation and Inspirational Boost.

Oh. I guess this would be a good time to put in a pitch AGAINST mind blank, at least for those of you who care about attack rolls. As a mind affecting effect, Godot's bard 'song' (she doesn't sing) only works on you if you can be affected by them. Something to think about, anyway.

Cespenar
2011-06-15, 11:11 AM
I know it's possible to optimize almost anything in the game, but +8 to everyone's attack rolls is still a funny thing to see. :smallbiggrin:

Togo
2011-06-15, 09:02 PM
Saffron 1d20+8
Glyda 1d20+7
Derk 1d20+0
Rhion 1d20-1
Umbriel 1d20+5
Penrose 1d20+7
Sthrer 1d20+2
Godot 1d20+7

NPCs 1d20+4

Remember, as discussed, anyone with an initiative higher than the NPCs may act now. You don't need to wait for another PC with a higher score to post first. Anyone with an initiative lower than the NPCs will have to wait, I'm afraid.

----

Edit - ok, can anyone spot why this isn't working?

Toliudar
2011-06-15, 09:06 PM
Ooh. Spider riders? Much fun!

Initiative here?

Godot: [roll0] - or +5 to that if Umbriel is able to Nerveskitter her.

And while we're at it.

Knowledge checks:

Nobility: Are there any insignia on the breastplates that she recognizes? [roll1]
Local: Does she recognize the men as belonging to any of the factions? [roll2]
Arcana: What are the funky rod-things? [roll3]


Edit: sorry, I'd forgotten about group initiative.

SPoD
2011-06-15, 09:45 PM
Edit - ok, can anyone spot why this isn't working?

The code is "roll" not "dice". :smallsmile:

Here's mine anyway: [roll0]

EDIT: Ugh, apparently I really was too distracted following...

Togo
2011-06-15, 09:52 PM
ok, if this works, use these...

Saffron
Glyda [roll1]
Derk [roll2]
Rhion [roll3]
Umbriel [roll4]
Penrose [roll5]
Sthrer [roll]1d20+2[
Godot [roll6]

NPCs [roll7]

Remember, as discussed, anyone with an initiative higher than the NPCs may act now. You don't need to wait for another PC with a higher score to post first. Anyone with an initiative lower than the NPCs will have to wait, I'm afraid.

Togo
2011-06-15, 10:03 PM
At last! Thanks to SPoD and Toliudar for their help!

Right, anyone who's initiative is higher than NPCs, gets to act.

The market is a square area about 120 feet across. The roofs the spider riders are on are about 30 feet up.

Saffron, assume that you're in the far east of the square, near the road.

The funky rod things are just a weird description on my part - they're flaming brilliant energy two bladed swords. Think burning double light sabres.

Godot
yes you recognise the insignia on their armour as being from the Iron Tower - a mercanary group based on the Astral Plane - who often do jobs for people in Sigil. Most of them are githyanki. As a mercanary group, they're not formally aligned with any faction.

Togo
2011-06-15, 10:05 PM
Trying again to get Sthrer's initiative

Sthrer [roll0]

Ifni
2011-06-15, 10:18 PM
Umbriel's Knowledge checks (pick out those which are relevant):
Arcana: [roll0]
Religion: [roll1]
Planes: [roll2]
Local: [roll3]
Nobility & Royalty: [roll4]
History: [roll5]
Nature: [roll6]
Dungeoneering: [roll7]

If Geography or Architecture & Engineering are relevant, let me know :smallwink:

I'm trying to identify the riders' race (if any indicators are visible) and the nature of the spiders they're riding, any guilds or factions they're associated with and anything I know about those factions' goals, or the riders/spiders themselves if they're notable entities.

For any of them within 120ft of me, Spellcraft is minimum 32 at the moment to see auras on them with my Arcane Sight.

Saffron, are you visible or hidden at the moment?

@Togo:
That's a self-consistent and reasonable ruling on Extraordinary Spell Aim, I'm happy to go with it. The aforementioned friend ran it as "this one person is unaffected by the spell no matter where they go", but I honestly don't mind. I won't put a hole in the Silence, and I've modified my contingency on my sheet accordingly.

SPoD
2011-06-15, 10:48 PM
Definitely hidden, and not near my bat, either. :smallfrown:

Ifni
2011-06-15, 11:00 PM
SPoD, is Haste valuable to Saffron? If so, if you want to un-hide and you can get close enough to the rest of the group, my familiar can tag you with Haste before she commands herself back into Umbriel's pocket.

I am deeply tempted to ready a Reverse Gravity for when the spiders spring, but not sure that'll work quite the way I'd like it to :smallwink: Does Derk have a way to fly under his own power? I'd normally just open with Mass Fly + Haste, but if everyone who wants to can fly already, I might do something else with my action.

Teleportation magic doesn't work in Sigil since it goes via the Astral, right?

SPoD
2011-06-15, 11:06 PM
Well, I'm unhidden as of now, because I just shot four times. I can try to get closer to the party next turn, but I'm not sure how far away you are.

And yeah, Haste would let me get another arrow in each turn. Flight isn't as important to me since I can hit them at range, but I'll take it if you're giving it out for free.

Also, started the battle out with a x3 crit! Go me! :smallcool::smallbiggrin:

Ifni
2011-06-15, 11:17 PM
Well, I'm unhidden as of now, because I just shot four times. I can try to get closer to the party next turn, but I'm not sure how far away you are.

And yeah, Haste would let me get another arrow in each turn. Flight isn't as important to me since I can hit them at range, but I'll take it if you're giving it out for free.

Also, started the battle out with a x3 crit! Go me! :smallcool::smallbiggrin:

Indeed, very nice :smallbiggrin:

Haste has an annoying targeting restriction that all targets need to be within 30ft of each other, so if you're on the other side of a 120ft wide square and full attacking every turn, it might be hard to get that to work. It sounded like the rest of us are all still pretty close together, though?

I'll wait for any results from my Knowledge checks before acting.

SPoD
2011-06-16, 12:15 AM
Indeed, very nice :smallbiggrin:

Haste has an annoying targeting restriction that all targets need to be within 30ft of each other, so if you're on the other side of a 120ft wide square and full attacking every turn, it might be hard to get that to work. It sounded like the rest of us are all still pretty close together, though?

I'm fine with you leaving me out of the Haste, too, if I'm too far away. Whatever's easiest.

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-16, 02:11 AM
Does Derk have a way to fly under his own power? I'd normally just open with Mass Fly + Haste, but if everyone who wants to can fly already, I might do something else with my action.



Derk has the Flight of the Dragon spell. Given his clumsy nature, he generally prefers to stay on the ground, though :smallwink:

Togo
2011-06-16, 07:05 AM
Godot
I believe you should be taking some damage from Word of Creation?

Umbriel

The spiders are husk widowmakers, undead widowmaker spiders. While widowmakers are highly posionous, husk vermin lose their poison. However, husk vermin attacks can sap strength, or even life itself.
A living vermin of any size slain by a husk widowmaker will rise as husk vermin in 1d4 hours
Husk widowmaker attacks count as magical
the bite of a husk widowmaker does 2d4 points of strength damage as well as ordinary damage. For each such sucessful attack, the husk widowmaker gains 5 temporary hp.

Widowmakers are good at jumping. You're not sure if that translates into the husk version or not. (clearly you need higher knowledge skills!:))

The riders are humans

Auras - No active spells that you can see. However, their armour (breastplate) weapons (double swords and javelins), riding gear (reins, gloves) and cloaks are all magical. They may well have other, smaller magical items (rings and amulets etc.), but they're hard to see from where you are.

Swords - strong transmutation, moderate evocation
armour - faint enchantment
reins - faint transmution
spiked gloves - faint evocation
cloak - moderate abjuration
Javelin - faint evocation

You recognise the insignia on their armour as being from the Iron Tower - a large mercanary group based on the Astral Plane. Most of that group are githyanki. You would imagine they're quite expensive.

DerkSince you disclosed the nature of their weapons in the OOC thread and I have the feat to make them as well as ranks in the tied knowledge skill, I am going to assume I know what I am dealing with.

Yes. It should be clear it's a double sword, which you'd recognise, at least in concept. It should be clear it's made of energy. I'm ruling it's pretty darned obvious what you're dealing with.

Note that, if it were a holy, spellstoring, axiomatic brilliant energy weapon that's on fire, I would have described it in the same way. I'm just telling you what your character would see.

Am I right that shield spell does not protect either against brilliant energy?

Yup.

Togo
2011-06-16, 07:57 AM
Just Umbriel and Penrose to act, and then it's the NPCs turn.

Obrysii
2011-06-16, 08:00 AM
Are we in the same area? We were at the ceramics shop...

Toliudar
2011-06-16, 08:27 AM
Right! Nonlethal damage to Godot from words of creation: [roll0]

Togo
2011-06-16, 09:58 AM
Are we in the same area? We were at the ceramics shop...

Yes...

*....***....*
*............*
*...........*
*...........n
*...........*********X*****************
*....HH.............23............................ ..........
*....HH................................S....20.... 20......
*...........................................****** ***
*....:..1..:..2..:...:..3..:..4..:...19*
X....:..5..:..6..:...:..7..:..8..:......*
*........................................18*
*....:.9..:.10..:...:.11..:.12.:......*
*....:.13.:.14.:...:.15..:.16.:...17*
*..........................................*
*....*********X*****21*.....*
*....*****************....* 22

1 Clubs and Licks
2 Fire works
3 On a stick
4 Wraps
5 Combat pottery
6 Tobias alchemical
7 Mirrors
8 Candles
9 Apothacary
10 Glassware
11+12 Painted plates
13 Locks
14 Toys
15 Fruit
16 Hot Sweatmeats
17 Sinners
18 Blackened Lizards
19 Juice!
20 Children's stalls

21 Half-elf cafe
22 Fine Elven Dining
23 Fire Jugglers

The combat pottery stall is marked 5 on the map. Kalinor and Nephira were talking at the mirror stall (7), and the glassware that got knocked over is at (10). Most people are at 5 or 10. Sethrer is at 16. Umbriel is just below the four Hs that mark the beer barrel. Saffron I've marked with an S. The surviving spider riders are marked with an X. The nearest spider rider to you is about 15-20 feet away horizontally, and about 25 feet up.

SPoD
2011-06-16, 11:54 AM
Togo, thanks, your math is correct. I did forget about the +8 to hit and, more importantly, damage. I think Saffron's opinion of Godot just rose slightly...

Toliudar
2011-06-16, 12:02 PM
Holy! Your numbers were without Godot's boost? The respect is mutual.

Ifni
2011-06-17, 12:49 AM
SPoD, did you also forget that your bow is +5 at the moment? :smallwink:

It looks like everyone but Sthrer and Saffron meet the targeting conditions for Haste, so I'm going to post on that assumption - if I'm misreading the map, please let me know.

SPoD
2011-06-17, 02:10 AM
SPoD, did you also forget that your bow is +5 at the moment? :smallwink:

It looks like everyone but Sthrer and Saffron meet the targeting conditions for Haste, so I'm going to post on that assumption - if I'm misreading the map, please let me know.

:smallredface: I did, actually. I think I turned that guy into chunky salsa.

EDIT: Yeah, I did 20 extra points of damage than the 135 needed to knock him out: +12 for the critical, and then +4 to the second and fourth arrows. There's no way he's NOT dead. Togo, given that revised damage, would he have gotten knocked out before the last arrow drove into him? If so, I'd like to hold my fire on the last one. I'm willing to just give up the fourth attack altogether (as in, I'm not looking to hit someone else with it), I just don't want to shoot an unconscious man.

Togo
2011-06-17, 04:38 AM
:smallredface: I did, actually. I think I turned that guy into chunky salsa.

EDIT: Yeah, I did 20 extra points of damage than the 135 needed to knock him out: +12 for the critical, and then +4 to the second and fourth arrows. There's no way he's NOT dead. Togo, given that revised damage, would he have gotten knocked out before the last arrow drove into him? If so, I'd like to hold my fire on the last one. I'm willing to just give up the fourth attack altogether (as in, I'm not looking to hit someone else with it), I just don't want to shoot an unconscious man.

Yes, you take him out with just two arrows.

Togo
2011-06-17, 05:14 AM
egad! 7 rolls, and my highest is a 13? The dice do not like me today!

Penrose, your move.

EDIT - followed by 1, 5, 5, 7, 15, 7. <humph>

Obrysii
2011-06-17, 06:43 AM
Sorry, I have been having a crazy week at work.

Togo
2011-06-17, 07:24 PM
Just to clarify, all the people who were higher initiative than the NPCs have now acted, and the spider riders have now acted. So now everyone in the party gets to act again. Rhion, Simon, you shouldn't have acted until now. You're both welcome to act now with the actions you've listed, or you can change your mind.

GuesssWho
2011-06-17, 07:57 PM
I'm thinking Sthrer would put an ice wall between the public and the nearest spider rider. Where would that wall go, and what would I need to roll?

SPoD
2011-06-17, 07:59 PM
I think I liquified another rider. Critical hit on the 4th arrow. :smallredface:

Ifni
2011-06-17, 08:27 PM
Maybe your first three arrows dropped him, and you'll get to redirect the crit? Maybe? I feel a bit sorry for Godot and her Vow of Nonviolence :smalltongue:

Togo, re grapple damage, the way I read Evards is that on casting the tentacles just grab to hold, they can grapple to crush (for damage) on subsequent rounds ("once the tentacles grapple an opponent, they may make a grapple check each round on your turn to deal 1d6+4 points of bludgeoning damage"). If you disagree, feel free to roll the damages for me, it's just 1d6+4 for each grappled creature - or I can roll them after I get your response if you prefer.

*kicks self* Why on the Prime do I have Benign Transposition memorized instead of Blood Wind, when I knew we were going to Sigil? :smallconfused:

If you have any requests for Umbriel's action, feel free to ask her IC through the Message; she's feeling inclined to chill out and conserve her spells, now that the vile gith-minions are all either nicely tangled up in tentacles or being perforated by Saffron, but will happily provide magical assistance if anyone needs it to join the fun :smallwink: (for example, I can pop off a Mass Fly if that would be useful to Derk and/or change Rhion and Simon's actions - Umbriel has no intention of going near the spiders herself, Str damage is nasty! She needs her allies to actually deal with them :smallsmile:)

Obrysii
2011-06-17, 08:35 PM
My character might seem helpless, but he just doesn't want his cover blown.

Togo
2011-06-17, 08:45 PM
I think I liquified another rider. Critical hit on the 4th arrow. :smallredface:

Nice shooting. Yes, that will kill the rider WEST on the 4th arrow hit (not before).

Note that if you switch to a target that's in a grapple, you'll be firing into a grapple, and thus need to randomise which you hit of the tentacles or the rider.

Can you remind me what you're using to ignore cover, or does that not still apply?


Togo, re grapple damage, the way I read Evards is that on casting the tentacles just grab to hold, they can grapple to crush (for damage) on subsequent rounds

True, my mistake.

Togo
2011-06-17, 08:48 PM
I'm thinking Sthrer would put an ice wall between the public and the nearest spider rider. Where would that wall go, and what would I need to roll?

Rider SOUTH. You could do a wall across the edge of the roof. There's no guarentee that a spider might not be able to jump or climb over it, although whether or not that would be easy is another matter. No roll necessary

Alternatively, you could enclose the spider rider and his mount (and all the tentacles) in a hemisphere of ice. That would trap them unless they managed to break through it, but it would simply fail if they made their reflex save.

SPoD
2011-06-17, 08:59 PM
you remind me what you're using to ignore cover, or does that not still apply?

Improved Precise Shot. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedPreciseShot) In fact, it also specifically says when I shoot into a grapple, I always hit the right target.

Ifni
2011-06-17, 09:29 PM
Obrysii, I feel you may also be overlooking the +8 morale bonus to hit and damage from Godot, and the fact that if you were anywhere near Umbriel in the morning, every weapon you own is now +5 :smalltongue: (okay, if there are more than 20 weapons among the party, not ALL of them are magical, but when we discussed this earlier I think we only got to a total of 5)

Also, Umbriel did mention that the spiders are undead (whispered through the previously cast Message spell to the rest of the party), so unless your PC is unusually sympathetic to the undead for a gold dragon, I don't think he need have any qualms about re-killing it :smallwink:

Obrysii
2011-06-17, 09:49 PM
Obrysii, I feel you may also be overlooking the +8 morale bonus to hit and damage from Godot, and the fact that if you were anywhere near Umbriel in the morning, every weapon you own is now +5 :smalltongue: (okay, if there are more than 20 weapons among the party, not ALL of them are magical, but when we discussed this earlier I think we only got to a total of 5)

Also, Umbriel did mention that the spiders are undead (whispered through the previously cast Message spell to the rest of the party), so unless your PC is unusually sympathetic to the undead for a gold dragon, I don't think he need have any qualms about re-killing it :smallwink:

My apologies. I have had a hectic week and did not realize any of that.

So add +8 to my attack (total of 39) and +8 to my damage (so it's 15). And also, I suppose my character has no sympathies for an undead spider.

Ifni
2011-06-17, 10:03 PM
My apologies. I have had a hectic week and did not realize any of that.

So add +8 to my attack (total of 39) and +8 to my damage (so it's 15). And also, I suppose my character has no sympathies for an undead spider.

No need to apologize! I wasn't trying to be snarky, it's easy to miss these things, I just wanted to make sure you knew about the buffs and the info :smallsmile:

Cespenar
2011-06-18, 04:50 PM
Just to clarify, all the people who were higher initiative than the NPCs have now acted, and the spider riders have now acted. So now everyone in the party gets to act again. Rhion, Simon, you shouldn't have acted until now. You're both welcome to act now with the actions you've listed, or you can change your mind.

Sorry, I was unsure of what would happen in case of an equal initiative count, so I wrote up Rhion's action nevertheless.

Anyway. Rhion doesn't do anything than getting himself some wings, he merely watches, since the situation looks well under control.

Togo
2011-06-18, 08:02 PM
Ok, so still waiting for Umbriel (who has implied she's going to delay unless anyone asks her to do otherwise), and Sthrer, who was asking about wall of ice. And also Simon, who I managed to leave out of the initiative order entirely. Sorry about that THEChanger!

Ifni
2011-06-18, 08:09 PM
Ok, so still waiting for Umbriel (who has implied she's going to delay unless anyone asks her to do otherwise), and Sthrer, who was asking about wall of ice. And also Simon, who I managed to leave out of the initiative order entirely. Sorry about that THEChanger!

Count me as delaying, I want to see how they react to Godot (although if anyone has any requests, please do just ask). I'll write an IC post where I'll also roll the tentacles' grapples for damage this round.

EDIT: ... okay, I'm grateful the dicebot saved that for a relatively inconsequential grapple-for-damage roll. 5, 4, 6, and 3 on 4d20! Y'all have fun with the spiders, I think Umbriel needs a beer :smallwink:

Toliudar
2011-06-19, 04:38 PM
Togo, do I get the impression that the mercenaries didn't hear Godot at all, could hear but not understand, or understood but are unaffected? She's not used to being ignored. :smallwink:

I understand the challenges of using diplomacy checks in combat, but I thought that she was making a fairly persuasive point about what actually served their self-interests best at this point.

Obrysii
2011-06-19, 05:33 PM
Was my attack ignored?

Togo
2011-06-19, 06:10 PM
Togo, do I get the impression that the mercenaries didn't hear Godot at all, could hear but not understand, or understood but are unaffected? She's not used to being ignored. :smallwink:

I understand the challenges of using diplomacy checks in combat, but I thought that she was making a fairly persuasive point about what actually served their self-interests best at this point.

You did, you reckon they probably heard you, and yes you're self-aware enough to know you were very pursuasive.

So something else is going on? Either they know something about their chances that you don't, or they're more concerned about their mission than their own self-interest, or they're being mind controlled, or they're fanatics hoping to die in battle, or etc. etc. etc.

But yeah, you'd be expecting them to be talking to you right now. They're not.

Togo
2011-06-19, 06:15 PM
Was my attack ignored?

Sorry I should have posted some description there. I've added some to one of the previous posts.

You did hit, and you clearly did damage, and the undead spider now looks more hurt than it was.

On its action it broke free from the tentacles. It didn't have any more actions, so it couldn't attack you, but it looks like it's about to.

Ifni
2011-06-19, 06:44 PM
Looking for information on the Iron Tower, do I know if they have any kind of honor code that requires them to die rather than fail in a mission, or something similar?

Knowledge (Local) [roll0]
Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) [roll1]
Knowledge (History) [roll2]

Togo
2011-06-20, 04:41 PM
It's a lawful neutral githyanki military organisation. They will likely be highly disicplined, to put it mildly. The githyanki are very big on death before dishonour, death after dishonour, and death on matters of honour. Suicide attacks would be not be typical behaviour, however.

Cespenar
2011-06-20, 04:54 PM
It's a lawful neutral githyanki military organisation. They will likely be highly disicplined, to put it mildly. The githyanki are very big on death before dishonour, death after dishonour, and death on matters of honour. Suicide attacks would be not be typical behaviour, however.

Did you just describe feudal Japan? :smalltongue:

Togo
2011-06-20, 05:14 PM
Derk, sorry, in my smmary I didn't mean to imply that you hadn't reached your destination. I need to be more careful in my summaries. Next battle, I'll try and have a proper map ready.

Waiting for Godot (and Umbriel).

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-20, 05:27 PM
Derk, sorry, in my smmary I didn't mean to imply that you hadn't reached your destination. I need to be more careful in my summaries. Next battle, I'll try and have a proper map ready.

Waiting for Godot (and Umbriel).

No worries, it is really working out ok for me like this.

Ifni
2011-06-20, 07:13 PM
Okay, so with that action from Godot, what I need to know is whether Godot had line-of-sight to the guy behind the ice wall (who I think is the only rider still conscious on her action). If she's mind-controlling him, I'll glitterdust Androse's spider. If she's throwing orbs of force at spiders, I'll satisfy my own curiosity as to whether the enchantment aura on the breastplates is relevant, by trying to dispel it on the guy behind the ice wall.

My DC for the Will save on Glitterdust is 22. Togo, feel free to resolve my action and proceed with the round, if need be I'll post a text-y description to the IC later :smallsmile:

Togo
2011-06-20, 07:56 PM
I don't think Godot has line-of-sight to the last rider, due to the wall of ice. As such, I'll assume she's readying a orb of force. That further means you're casting dispel magic.

Togo
2011-06-20, 08:26 PM
Both Simon and Godot have the opportunity to interrupt with their readied actions, of course, but I wasn't able to tell if you want to do so.

Toliudar
2011-06-20, 08:34 PM
I'm happy with the way you've adjudicated it. Consider Godot continuing to hold her readied action, unless Derk doesn't seem to want to take the lead with the spider rider.

SPoD
2011-06-20, 11:47 PM
Waiting for Godot

You've been waiting this whole time to say that, haven't you?

Anyway, before Derk gets all up in Saffron's face, I want it to be clear that she attacked BEFORE Derk asked for surrender again; I posted first and her initiative is higher than his by 8 points. The fact that Togo narrated it the other way around isn't my fault, or the character's, so please don't "have a talk" with me about how I killed him as he was about to surrender. :smallannoyed: He took an action after Godot's Diplomacy check and didn't surrender then, so she (and I) had no reason to believe a surrender was forthcoming at the time that she shot.

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-21, 02:18 AM
You've been waiting this whole time to say that, haven't you?

Anyway, before Derk gets all up in Saffron's face, I want it to be clear that she attacked BEFORE Derk asked for surrender again; I posted first and her initiative is higher than his by 8 points. The fact that Togo narrated it the other way around isn't my fault, or the character's, so please don't "have a talk" with me about how I killed him as he was about to surrender. :smallannoyed: He took an action after Godot's Diplomacy check and didn't surrender then, so she (and I) had no reason to believe a surrender was forthcoming at the time that she shot.

No, that's not it. Derk never believed he would surrender after the compelling statement by Godot. However, while flying up to the roof Derk came to realize that these guys had actually not done anything wrong yet (besides possessing an undead mount and perhaps violating some traffic rules since they were riding roof tops :smallwink:). Derk wanted to give him an extra chance, if only to have him prove he had ill intentions.

One might (note that Derk won't, this is just hypothetical) even argue that the ones committing a crime here is us. For all we know these guys are the much feared, but legal, secret agents of some authority here.

Derk just thinks we may have gotten carried away and reacted with a bit too much brutal force, which may have led to the death of three innocent men. In the end, we are guests in a place that is very new and unfamiliar to us.


I'm happy with the way you've adjudicated it. Consider Godot continuing to hold her readied action, unless Derk doesn't seem to want to take the lead with the spider rider.

Derk is concerned with cleaning up the spiders and more than happy to have Godot do the talking. He is used to have things done by the persons that are best at it. Far more efficient.

Cespenar
2011-06-21, 02:36 AM
I think a court-martial happens to be in order. :smalltongue:

Ifni
2011-06-21, 02:45 AM
Godot, please feel free to talk over Umbriel: she will gladly defer to Godot's superior expertise at talking people down, she just wanted to find out if there's anything she should know about the breastplate before it un-suppresses :smallwink:

Togo
2011-06-21, 07:58 AM
Waiting for Godot You've been waiting this whole time to say that, haven't you?

Um.. yes? :smallredface:

Obrysii
2011-06-21, 09:41 AM
I think it would be quite fun if Xiuhcoatl goes from this "Undead are violations of natural law!" idealism to a more "ends justify the means" kind of guy through the course of the game - as the cruel reality of this world alters his inborn draconic mindset.

Toliudar
2011-06-21, 10:24 AM
Um.. yes? :smallredface:

Well, I was hoping SOMEONE would use it.

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-21, 12:31 PM
Godot whispers back, as she sheathes her knife and heads over to speak with Derk and the man.


I am perhaps a bit confused, but Derk is I think standing on the North roof with a dead rider and an entangled spider. The remaining rider you want to adress is on the ground now, no?

Or did you mean something in the line of 'she heads over to the man while speaking to Derk'?

Toliudar
2011-06-21, 01:08 PM
I am perhaps a bit confused, but Derk is I think standing on the North roof with a dead rider and an entangled spider. The remaining rider you want to adress is on the ground now, no?

Or did you mean something in the line of 'she heads over to the man while speaking to Derk'?

Did I miss something? I thought that the surviving rider surrendered to Derk. I'll double check IC. Sorry.

Togo
2011-06-21, 04:57 PM
NORTH - Derk, dead rider, spider grappled by tentacles, being slowly crushed to 'death'.
EAST - Dead rider, live spider, not doing anything. Sthrer is also on this side, further south
WEST - dead rider, live spider, not doing anything. This is the one that was chewing on Ambrose
SOUTH - live spider, live rider, rider appears to be surrendering.

I'm intending to drop out of intiative at this point, so please act freely.

Ifni
2011-06-21, 08:53 PM
Togo, what is your opinion on Wee Jas' attitude toward undead? The canon on this has changed a bit over the years - as far as I understand, all of the following have been valid at one point:
(1) Wee Jas is the mistress of death, undeath is rebellion against her dominion (and/or corruption of souls she is supposed to take to their rest), and so the undead must be sent to true death whenever encountered.
(2) Wee Jas' power over death extends to power over the undead; if keeping them undead rather than truly-dead serves the purposes of her followers, that's just fine.
(3) Choosing undeath for oneself, as in the case of liches and other intelligent undead, is rebellion against Wee Jas (like (1)) except in very special circumstances, but raising mindless undead is okay (like (2)).
(4) Choosing undeath for oneself is fine, but raising undead from bodies obtained unlawfully or against the wishes of the original creature (if intelligent) is against the rules.

I've been trying to keep this ambiguous so far, but Jasidan doctrine on this point will significantly affect Umbriel's reaction to the discussion of the spiders' fate. If you don't mind and just want me to pick one, I can do that too.

EDIT: Please assume Umbriel relays all communications via the Message spell to all PCs - anyone speaking into the Message will have their words transmitted on to the entire party. I'm just avoiding posting IC until I know whether Togo has an opinion on Wee Jas' attitude to undead, since Umbriel is going to follow her religion's doctrine precisely in this regard.

Togo
2011-06-22, 08:45 AM
Feel free to pick one for Umbriel to take as cannon. Just let me know which one.

You may, of course, take more than one as being the position of the church of Wee Jas. Many churches have internal disagreements, particularly when different branches of the church start in different dimensions.

Whatever you choose should be reconcilable with the fact that Wee Jas grants access to the Death Domain, including Animate Dead and Greater Create Undead. I'd have thought that this would be hard to reconcile with 1, but I'm happy to be convinced otherwise.

Toliudar
2011-06-22, 10:31 AM
Sorry to bulldozed this forward, folks. I'm happy to go with majority opinion on how best to deal with our not-quite-yet prisoner. Um, as long as it doesn't involve lying to him, accepting his surrender, and then slitting his throat. Your thoughts?

GuesssWho
2011-06-22, 12:25 PM
Accept the damned surrender already.

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-22, 01:35 PM
Sorry to bulldozed this forward, folks. I'm happy to go with majority opinion on how best to deal with our not-quite-yet prisoner. Um, as long as it doesn't involve lying to him, accepting his surrender, and then slitting his throat. Your thoughts?

The man can live and go his way, for all Derk cares, as long as it becomes clear who ordered him to be here. It seems that the greatest unjustice being done here is having them sent to us. His friends lasted for what....12 seconds? It seems to me that they were sent here to die.

The mounts....well, Derk really needs a good reason to let them go. Derk thinks it is his God-given duty to rid the world of them :smallsmile:.

So...what is the Tower, what do they do (and why) and why on earth do they use undead mounts?

Anywho...I think you are doing fine and agree with what you did so far. And am happy you're doing the talking.

Togo
2011-06-22, 04:48 PM
Incidently, it looks like the first fight was a bit too easy for you. It was intended as a warm up, but even so... Those guys would have been very nasty if they got into melee range, but simply weren't tough enough to get through to you.

Don't worry, the battles are intended to different from eachother, and I'm presently busy making the next one much more deadly, just for you...

Cespenar
2011-06-22, 05:08 PM
First fight? Whatever are you talking about? :smalltongue:

P.S. I kid, I kid. I like having different leveled encounters across the game. It's more realistic than the "always appropriate leveled encounters" approach.

P.P.S. It's fine, Toliudar. I'm sure if anyone would oppose, they would. Or so I think.

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-22, 05:17 PM
First fight? Whatever are you talking about? :smalltongue:

You have easy talking! I had to burn through quite a few spell slots and special abilities to uh, er....look cool, yet moderately redundant :smallwink:.

But Cespenar, we can still fight over who gets first at the 'On a Stick' stall? :smallsmile:

Cespenar
2011-06-22, 05:21 PM
You have easy talking! I had to burn through quite a few spell slots and special abilities to uh, er....look cool, yet moderately redundant :smallwink:.

But Cespenar, we can still fight over who gets first at the 'On a Stick' stall? :smallsmile:

Well, Rhion can become a stall, if you'd like. :smallbiggrin:

Toliudar
2011-06-22, 05:31 PM
Now THERE's a fun mental image.

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-22, 05:36 PM
Well, Rhion can become a stall, if you'd like. :smallbiggrin:

:smallbiggrin:

I can transform my weapon into a spear, so we have a skewer. Maybe we can sell undead spider kebab and get some gp out of this encounter? :smallsmile:

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-22, 05:42 PM
Godot instinctively flinches away from the blade, but smiles uncertainly up at Derk.

"Ah! I mean, ah. Thank you. But why don't you, ah, hold onto that."

She murmurs into the link.

"Umbriel? You seemed interested in those breastplates. If you'd like to, erm, remove one for study or something, you might want to do it soon. Sthrer is getting antsy. I think I heard a rattle."

Sorry, Toliudar. It seems we managed to post simultaneously there. I figured you did not want to accept the blade before you got your answers, so I sort-off retracted my post through spoilers. If it works for you like this, I just remove the spoilers again.

Cespenar
2011-06-22, 05:49 PM
:smallbiggrin:

I can transform my weapon into a spear, so we have a skewer. Maybe we can sell undead spider kebab and get some gp out of this encounter? :smallsmile:

The thing is, Rhion can turn into gp as well. :smalltongue:

Toliudar
2011-06-22, 05:50 PM
Sorry, Toliudar. It seems we managed to post simultaneously there. I figured you did not want to accept the blade before you got your answers, so I sort-off retracted my post through spoilers. If it works for you like this, I just remove the spoilers again.

No, that's me not being clear. I meant that Godot was recoiling when DERK offered it to her. I meant for you to keep it, not him. thought you dealt with that beautifully.

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-22, 05:50 PM
The thing is, Rhion can turn into gp as well. :smalltongue:

Hmmm...can you turn into an undead spider? *readies skewer* :smallwink:

Cespenar
2011-06-22, 06:01 PM
Hmmm...can you turn into an undead spider? *readies skewer* :smallwink:

Derk digs undead meat?

Togo
2011-06-22, 06:58 PM
Has anyone got a list of colours that work on these boards? Some of the colours I'm using are pretty hard on the eyes....

---- Edit----
Also, is anyone going to reply to Kalinor? There's no reason why two different people can't talk at the same time...

Cespenar
2011-06-23, 02:04 AM
Has anyone got a list of colours that work on these boards? Some of the colours I'm using are pretty hard on the eyes....

---- Edit----
Also, is anyone going to reply to Kalinor? There's no reason why two different people can't talk at the same time...

Well, I thought of talking to him, but since Rhion prefers not to be a "decider", that conversation felt better to have suited Androse, or someone else.

Ifni
2011-06-23, 03:53 AM
Feel free to pick one for Umbriel to take as cannon. Just let me know which one.

You may, of course, take more than one as being the position of the church of Wee Jas. Many churches have internal disagreements, particularly when different branches of the church start in different dimensions.

Whatever you choose should be reconcilable with the fact that Wee Jas grants access to the Death Domain, including Animate Dead and Greater Create Undead. I'd have thought that this would be hard to reconcile with 1, but I'm happy to be convinced otherwise.

No, I agree: checking back, in the semi-official campaign (Living Greyhawk) that used (1), Death eventually got replaced with Repose as a domain for Wee Jas, so this wasn't so much of an issue.

And yes, there may well be disagreements over doctrine within the faith, but Umbriel is likely to feel that hers is the definitive position, since she studied at Wee Jas' citadel (although she never met the goddess herself, so it's still possible that she's got the wrong end of the stick, but she thinks she has literal Word of God backing her up :smallwink:)

With your approval, I think I'll go with mostly (2), with slight variations on (3) and (4):
-Manipulating the energies of life and death, including in the creation of undead, is a solemn act that should be undertaken with appropriate seriousness, but it is not inherently unlawful or against doctrine. Performed by clergy and worshippers of Wee Jas, it can be an act of worship. Spellcasters who show deep insight into the mysteries of death are especially sought-after as new converts to the faith.
-Deliberately choosing extended existence through undeath, for oneself or another, is not inherently wrong. Sometimes a necromancer might choose undeath to better understand the mysteries of their art, or a priest or paladin might find that the task they had been called to required them to continue on past their "natural" span. However, it can indicate deliberate defiance of fate and natural death, and that pride and rebellion can itself be sinful, especially if it leads to compelling others into undeath against their wills.
-The raising of undead should always be done in strict accordance with the law; obtaining bodies to be raised as undead in an unlawful manner is blasphemous, corrupting what should be a sacred mystery.

Umbriel herself frowns on raising intelligent beings as undead without their prior consent - she believes that all thinking creatures have the right to judgement by their gods. There are some circumstances under which she would countenance it, but in this party, I strongly suspect the question will never come up :smallwink:

Togo
2011-06-23, 06:30 AM
Sounds good.

Alternatively, we can replace Wee Jas's death domain with Repose. What ever suits.

Incidently, I have all the LG material from when I wrote a mod for it, so I suppose I could add that to the list of allowed sources.

Obrysii
2011-06-23, 07:25 AM
Umbriel herself frowns on raising intelligent beings as undead without their prior consent - she believes that all thinking creatures have the right to judgement by their gods. There are some circumstances under which she would countenance it, but in this party, I strongly suspect the question will never come up :smallwink:

Presently, Xuilcoatl, considering his nature as a gold dragon, believes the act of raisin any undead for any purpose as defying the natural will of the creator gods (Io, or whomever is the prominent creator-god in this world); but like I mentioned before, I think it will be fun to watch that change as the "real world" corrupts his views.

Sorry for lack of activity - been doing the whole "12pm to 11pm" shift right next to a "8am to 5pm" shift ...

SPoD
2011-06-23, 04:27 PM
Has anyone got a list of colours that work on these boards? Some of the colours I'm using are pretty hard on the eyes....

Any hex color should work. 50000058000060000068000070000078000080000088000090 0000980000A00000A80000B00000B80000

EDIT: Oh, and regarding undead, Saffron probably would think of them as unnatural perversions, but she also probably wouldn't think it was her problem to go out and destroy them. Unless they were in conflict with her, like these spiders were.

Ifni
2011-06-24, 03:57 AM
SPoD: but they're valuable (and apparently fairly docile) unnatural perversions! :smalltongue:

I should note that Umbriel doesn't even dabble in necromancy (nothing much on the beguiler spell list, and it's one of her banned schools as a wizard), and so the morality of raising creatures as undead seems unlikely to be a major issue, unless Ssther decides to go in that direction :smallwink:

Togo, re Living Greyhawk material:
I just read through the old Deities Document and it would be great if I can use it as canon on Jasidan doctrine/ceremonies: it's more detailed than anything else I found online. I'm happy to post the relevant excerpt here if you don't have it. I'm going to do a bit more digging through my old LG material and see what else I can find: at first glance, the Deities doc doesn't actually detail Wee Jas' attitude toward undead, although it does say that her followers are fascinated by magic that breaks the boundary between death and life, and that clerics should only command non-chaotic undead (they can rebuke chaotic undead, though). At this point, I think my previous outline should still be mostly okay (since her clerics still do mostly rebuke/command rather than turn/destroy, they're clearly not outright anti-undead), but with the additional point that chaotic undead don't get the benefit of the doubt as to whether they're rebelling against their ordained deaths. Raising people as undead without their prior consent may also be strongly against doctrine, since Wee Jas is meant to be the steward of the dead who guides souls to their eternal rest, and making them undead would often conflict with that goal.

On the question of Death vs Repose, it has no mechanical effect on Umbriel, and I really don't mind - if you also don't mind, I'd vote for Repose if I'm going to be using the LG material as canon, since that's more likely to be internally consistent (Wee Jas' domains in LG were Domination, Inquisition, Law, Magic, Mind and Repose).

Togo, do you want new initiative rolls? Umbriel is inclined to stay out of this, for the moment, although if nobody else gives him a melee weapon she might toss him something to fight with. She doesn't think he's a serious threat anymore, and honorable death in combat seems like a reasonable request to her.

@Togo re IC thread:
No worries - yeah, once Godot cast her spell, he would obviously not be interested in chatting with Umbriel.

Togo
2011-06-24, 05:37 AM
Use of LG material

The Wee Jas entry on p186 of the deities 2.0 doc? Sure, go ahead.

Unless anyone has objections, I propose adopting the LG variant on Wee Jas for this adventure/campaign. Mechanically this means she gets the following domains:
Domination, Inquisition, Law, magic, mind, repose. Note that this means she no longer gets the death domain.

The LG deities document is quite useful for fleshing out the flavour of religions and deities, feel free to have a look. It can be found at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg in the right hand sidebar, under Campaign documents. There's no obligation to use any this, of course, and I'm just happy for people to make up their own details.

I don't think we need initiative roles, since this hasn't really degenerated into a proper fight (yet). It doesn't make much sense for people to have acted before Kulthial did, and it doesn't make much sense for him to act again until people have had a chance to respond. So the PCs may act, including Godot, should they wish.

Obrysii
2011-06-24, 07:22 AM
SPoD: but they're valuable (and apparently fairly docile) unnatural perversions! :smalltongue:

I should note that Umbriel doesn't even dabble in necromancy (nothing much on the beguiler spell list, and it's one of her banned schools as a wizard), and so the morality of raising creatures as undead seems unlikely to be a major issue, unless Ssther decides to go in that direction :smallwink:

Scrolls!

I've got to make a list of things to get Xuilcoatl, so he can be useful in human form. Of course, once the cat is out of the bag (so to speak - he's a dragon), he'll likely just stay in dragon form.

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-24, 05:01 PM
A small announcement:

Next monday I will travel to Norway to attend two conferences (on midge larvae and their fossil remains...the things people do for money, huh?) and to take the opportunity to cruise the fjords and mountains. I will be back the 11th of July. However, since the conferences are packed with overworked scientists, I am sure there will be means to get internet access every now and then. I expect to be able to post, but irregularly during this period.

My apologies in advance, but it is the nature of my work. I assure you I will do anything (like paying ridiculous hotel internet fees or bullying little kids to get their I-phones ) to be able to post as much as possible.

Togo
2011-06-24, 06:02 PM
Thanks for the warning. If you end up having more difficulties than you're happy with, then feel free to PM me some instructions on what to assume if we can't reach you.

SPoD
2011-06-24, 06:10 PM
I'm all for respecting another player's alignment choices, but the post-battle prisoner debate has now lasted longer than the battle. I'll suck up a -1 penalty for the rest of the day just to move the story along at this point.

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-06-24, 06:36 PM
Thanks for the warning. If you end up having more difficulties than you're happy with, then feel free to PM me some instructions on what to assume if we can't reach you.

Will do. Likewise, feel free to act on Derk's behalf if it seems appropriate. Outside of combat he will use his abilities (e.g. break enchantment) to relieve and help his companions whenever possible. His combat routine is simple: Swift shield, make sure team mates are safe; swift Air devotion, continue protecting or put butt in places where others don't want to go (and suck up the hits and forced saves). Don't feel sorry for him, it is what he was built for and what he has dedicated himself to. Protection (and a bit of aggression when provoked :smallwink:).

Toliudar
2011-06-24, 07:50 PM
I'm all for respecting another player's alignment choices, but the post-battle prisoner debate has now lasted longer than the battle. I'll suck up a -1 penalty for the rest of the day just to move the story along at this point.

Well, it's Togo's call, but I'd hardly call the guy helpless - or a prisoner, at this point. Godot won't be happy, of course, but we can RP it out. Do as you will, and sorry to bog things down.

Edit: Ah, I just got caught up with the IC thread. Well, kill him if you must, but I fail to see how that advances the story. I thought we were actually getting useful information out of the conversation before he decided to renege. What would you like to do next, SPoD?

SPoD
2011-06-24, 09:33 PM
It advances the story in that we can stop dealing with this scene and actually move on to other stuff. There's more than one way to get information, including searching corpses, divinations, tracking, and even speak with dead. Or even asking the mirror merchant what's going on.

Toliudar
2011-06-24, 10:07 PM
All true, and those all sound like good ideas. But I wasn't stopping anyone from doing any of those things. Then, or now.

SPoD
2011-06-24, 10:22 PM
All true, and those all sound like good ideas. But I wasn't stopping anyone from doing any of those things. Then, or now.

Didn't say you were stopping us. It was distracting us, though.

If Saffron started slicing the throat of tied-up prisoners, you as Godot's player couldn't ignore that just because you wanted to move the plot along. Your character would need to address that immediately, even if it meant not doing some other action you'd like to do. Likewise in this situation for Saffron and others; you can't expect us to just go search for tracks while you're doing stuff that violates our sense of right and wrong. So yes, technically you're not stopping us, but only if we accept and condone everything that is happening in our name, which some of us don't.

And on a more pragmatic point, we gave Godot three or four bites at the apple here. Time to move on.

Toliudar
2011-06-24, 10:42 PM
Didn't say you were stopping us. It was distracting us, though.

If Saffron started slicing the throat of tied-up prisoners, you as Godot's player couldn't ignore that just because you wanted to move the plot along. Your character would need to address that immediately, even if it meant not doing some other action you'd like to do. Likewise in this situation for Saffron and others; you can't expect us to just go search for tracks while you're doing stuff that violates our sense of right and wrong. So yes, technically you're not stopping us, but only if we accept and condone everything that is happening in our name, which some of us don't.

And on a more pragmatic point, we gave Godot three or four bites at the apple here. Time to move on.

Um. Okay. Except that this was the one situation which I identified in advance as a big deal for the character, whereas I had no idea that Saffron had issues with the use of enchantment magic. Does Saffron have issues with the use of compulsions? And if I'm not allowed to do things in your name, isn't the reverse also true?

Anyway, it's happened, and I'll figure out some way for Godot to deal with it without further derailing the thread.

SPoD
2011-06-24, 11:01 PM
Um. Okay. Except that this was the one situation which I identified in advance as a big deal for the character, whereas I had no idea that Saffron had issues with the use of enchantment magic. Does Saffron have issues with the use of compulsions?

No, she has an issue with the second enchantment to do the same thing. The man's reaction to the first one clearly spelled out that to him, the enchantment was a fate worse than death. And Godot did it again anyway. Saffron is against inflicting fates worse than death on people. Most people we meet will not feel that way, so compulsions will be fine.

Also, if Godot had used a compulsion to stop the fight, that would have been fine, too, because then the choice really will be between life or death. This was a choice between death and death-preceded-by-mind-control, because the man made it clear that he would kill himself as soon as he could.

Basically, it was egregious. It wasn't just "I'll compulsion you rather than kill you," it was, "I don't care how bad this is for you, I want to know something you know, and your feelings about it (and the feelings of all of my teammates) are irrelevant. Submit to my will."

There are alignments for people who insist on bending people to their will and regard their dignity as irrelevant. They don't end in a G.


And if I'm not allowed to do things in your name, isn't the reverse also true?

You're mixing up what I said. If I am off looking for tracks, then you are acting in my name with this prisoner. If you are off examining the treasure while we killed him, then I would be acting in your name. If we are both present and participating in the discussion, then neither is acting in the other's name. And that is why I CAN'T just go look for other stuff while you're dealing with the prisoner, not unless I wanted to accept whatever you did.

---------

EDIT: tl;dr - The moment it became clear that he would end his life rather than be dominated, the domination stopped being a life-saving alternative to violence and started being torture.

Toliudar
2011-06-24, 11:47 PM
SPoD, I'm enjoying gaming with you, and will hope to continue to do so. In light of that, I hope we can simply agree to disagree on our interpretations of recent events.

SPoD
2011-06-25, 12:23 AM
SPoD, I'm enjoying gaming with you, and will hope to continue to do so. In light of that, I hope we can simply agree to disagree on our interpretations of recent events.

That's not a solution. This will continue to be a problem after every fight if you can't understand why this would bother some of our characters.

I understand your Vow of Nonviolence and I will honor it, right up until the point when you commit acts that violate my own beliefs, which are pretty broadly defined as "Don't do evil stuff." All I'm asking for is some sort of recognition that other characters do not share your views on what is acceptable and are entitled to those beliefs--and that if you want us to work within the confines of your beliefs, then we have a right to expect you to do the same.

If I didn't spell those beliefs out in advance, it's because I assumed they were part and parcel of writing "Good" on my character sheet. If you want, I can spell out exactly what sort of things will be unacceptable to Saffron:
Torture
Causing suffering (mental or physical)
Prolonging mental or physical suffering when we have the ability to end it
Indifference toward another creature's suffering
Forcing a creature into any situation that we know for a fact it considers worse than dying
Acting as if we have a "free pass" to do whatever we want to a sentient creature because they attacked us (the "He started it!" defense)
Putting our desire to get the next plot coupon above a sentient creature's dignity
Any other variation of "the ends justify the means"
If I think of any more, I'll happily add them to the list.

It's not "agree to disagree," it's "agree to both work within the boundaries that we share." AKA compromise. I won't kill prisoners as long as you don't treat them in a way that makes them beg for death.

Ifni
2011-06-25, 01:16 AM
SPoD, while as noted IC my character broadly sympathizes with yours on this particular issue*, I do have to say: I am not playing a Good-aligned character. Umbriel is fairly likely to make "ends justifies the means" arguments, in situations where she feels strongly enough about those ends that it's worth giving the rest of you insight into her motivations, and she's likely to be fairly indifferent to several large categories of suffering. Of course, Saffron is entirely free to disagree with her vehemently, call her heartless, etc, but if your reaction as a player to those arguments is "this is unacceptable, my character would never work with someone who thinks like that", then I think you are going against the condition that we all accepted in the recruiting thread: "an ability to work with people of differing alignment is necessary to play in this adventure".

I don't anticipate problems here - Umbriel is very flexible in who she works with, and should not have any difficulty adapting to a mostly good party, and there are several other Lawful characters to ameliorate the fact that she generally wouldn't trust Chaotics as far as she can throw them :smallwink: - but I just wanted to make sure we're on the same page.

FWIW, I don't feel Godot's actions were clearly non-good: as I read it, she was using extreme measures to try to keep the guy from attempting suicide. That seems fairly consistent for someone dedicated to non-violence and believing in the joy of life. Of course I cannot speak for Toliudar's character here, these are just my thoughts as an outsider.

*Although if Godot had gotten useful information Umbriel would've accepted it without demur; she's a pragmatist. She doesn't follow the Golden Rule, because her adversaries generally don't either: she just prays she'll be clever and careful and lucky enough never to be at her enemies' mercy.

Cespenar
2011-06-25, 01:24 AM
With all due respect, and against my diplomatic sense, I feel compelled to point out that opening indiscriminate and extremely lethal fire upon a group of whom we most clearly didn't know the intents is a lot less "good" than what Godot does over there. This seems more of an IC issue than an OOC one, though.

But I'll agree that this interrogation scene dragged a little more than it's supposed to, yes.

Also, I'll +1 Ifni's post, despite it being full of ninja skills. :smalltongue:

Toliudar
2011-06-25, 01:52 AM
That's not a solution. This will continue to be a problem after every fight if you can't understand why this would bother some of our characters.

I understand your Vow of Nonviolence and I will honor it, right up until the point when you commit acts that violate my own beliefs, which are pretty broadly defined as "Don't do evil stuff." All I'm asking for is some sort of recognition that other characters do not share your views on what is acceptable and are entitled to those beliefs--and that if you want us to work within the confines of your beliefs, then we have a right to expect you to do the same.

If I didn't spell those beliefs out in advance, it's because I assumed they were part and parcel of writing "Good" on my character sheet. If you want, I can spell out exactly what sort of things will be unacceptable to Saffron:
Torture
Causing suffering (mental or physical)
Prolonging mental or physical suffering when we have the ability to end it
Indifference toward another creature's suffering
Forcing a creature into any situation that we know for a fact it considers worse than dying
Acting as if we have a "free pass" to do whatever we want to a sentient creature because they attacked us (the "He started it!" defense)
Putting our desire to get the next plot coupon above a sentient creature's dignity
Any other variation of "the ends justify the means"
If I think of any more, I'll happily add them to the list.

It's not "agree to disagree," it's "agree to both work within the boundaries that we share." AKA compromise. I won't kill prisoners as long as you don't treat them in a way that makes them beg for death.

SPoD, in case my previous post wasn't sufficiently clear: I think that your characterization of Godot's actions are unnecessarily inflammatory, and the tone that you're taking is swiftly making the game un-fun. I don't think that keeping a healthy, sane person from committing suicide is evil. Clearly, we disagree in this. Hence the "agree to disagree".

However, rest assured that, given your response OOC and Saffron's IC, Godot will be much less likely to take a lead role in the future. I'm sure that others will do a better job of living up to your moral code.

SPoD
2011-06-25, 01:58 AM
With all due respect, and against my diplomatic sense, I feel compelled to point out that opening indiscriminate and extremely lethal fire upon a group of whom we most clearly didn't know the intents is a lot less "good" than what Godot does over there. This seems more of an IC issue than an OOC one, though.

I agree, and it was a mistake on my part. I didn't know that we were the targets; I assumed they were after civilians, and if I had waited for them to attack then they would have killed several immediately.

I also had no way of knowing that one round of attacks would destroy them so completely, both because I didn't take into account the extreme boosting that I was getting and because I thought they were closer in power to us. I had assumed, incorrectly, that they would be able to soak up the damage. One of the downsides of PbP is that I can't ask the DM what the result of each arrow was before shooting the next one. My intent was to knock them to negatives, not kill them, but I got (un)lucky critical hits.

Those aren't excuses, but they are the reasons why it happened the way it did. If someone wants to talk to Saffron about it IC, she will more or less say the same thing (though probably focusing more on the "defending civilians" part).

So if your point is that I did something unrelated wrong, then I agree and will be trying better in the future to avoid the same situation. But that doesn't really impact on this situation at all.

SPoD
2011-06-25, 02:56 AM
Of course, Saffron is entirely free to disagree with her vehemently, call her heartless, etc, but if your reaction as a player to those arguments is "this is unacceptable, my character would never work with someone who thinks like that", then I think you are going against the condition that we all accepted in the recruiting thread: "an ability to work with people of differing alignment is necessary to play in this adventure".

This is how I would prefer to handle these issues, too: IC. But we are unfortunately in a situation where we need DM adjudication before even another moment passes, so we're stuck discussing it here.

As far as all the explaining, she asked me whether I had a problem with compulsion spells, so I tried to explain that I did not, as long as they weren't used this way.

Generally speaking, Saffron could have worked with anyone, but the more they violated her beliefs, the less likely that she was going to spend any energy observing theirs. Since Toliudar started this game asking that we all abide by her specific vow, I felt it was fair to expect that she would at least make an effort to understand and respect my character's P.O.V. in return--a P.O.V. that I voiced in-character several times. Instead, she said OOC that we'll "agree to disagree," which is universal code for "I'm not going to change, so there's no point in discussing." At that point, I have little reason to bother respecting her Vow of Nonviolence, or indeed her opinion on anything.

In short, I doubt would have ever had a problem with Umbriel because Umbriel would have never asked me to behave a certain way. Godot did, then used my inaction to perform an act Saffron found questionable. Hence, Saffron felt betrayed; the man suffered because she stayed her hand at others' request.

-----------

Speaking strictly as a player, I think asking other players to respect an unusual choice that compels them to act a certain way creates in you an obligation to listen to their opinions on related matters. If the paladin demands that no one steals, the druid is within her rights to say, "OK, but only if you don't burn down trees." That's what working together means.

If we want to play a team, then we have to listen to and respect each other. If we want to play a bunch of loners who happen to be in the same place, then OK, we can just ignore each other's feelings. And hey, we can steal from each other or kill each other in our sleep, too, right?

-----------

However, since it seems that the majority seems to think that I'm in the wrong here, I will bow out of this game. I certainly don't want to ruin it for anyone else, and Toliudar has made it clear that me playing will do so for her. So the duty lays on me to leave. Just assume that Saffron is so upset by these events that she leaves and continue on from there.

Sorry for derailing the OOC thread, Togo. I hope everyone has fun.

Cespenar
2011-06-25, 03:47 AM
I strongly suggest against leaving, SPoD. As I tried to hint in my earlier post, the disagreement between Godot and Saffron is supposed to be purely IC.

The ideal result will be a tension and a slight animosity between the two, but such is the way of any group in any fantasy literature. The key is to keep things IC, and also compromise a little in strategic measures.

My suggestion of how to tie things up for this encounter:

To finish this quickly, the prisoner is granted death in fair combat or something, which is sad for some (including Rhion) but bad things happen in life. Saffron and Godot argues, Godot compromises to not use magical compulsion to force people against their will, Saffron compromises that sometimes it's better to allow a momentary intrusion of free will if lives are at stake. Or both disagree and swear they will leave after this job. These compromises can happen despite your very clear cut impressions of your character's personality, because (I believe) that it's better to roleplay 0.95 of your character in a game than have your full character not play in a game.

Anyway, and we move on.

tl;dr: It's better to compromise a little from your character's personality than not being able to play it at all.

SPoD
2011-06-25, 04:38 AM
tl;dr: It's better to compromise a little from your character's personality than not being able to play it at all.

The problem is that I've already tried to compromise OOC, and it didn't get me anywhere. I was told twice that the only option was to "agree to disagree," which is NOT compromise, it's just ignoring the other person. The reason I'm upset is that it feels like I had already agreed to compromise by obeying her Vow, and when a situation arose that I had an issue with, I was told that explaining my character's exact position (after being asked to explain that position) was "unnecessarily inflammatory." So, her character's morals are important enough that we all need to follow them but my character's aren't important enough to even be discussed? That is not a disagreement between Godot and Saffron anymore, that is a disagreement between Toliudar and SPoD. No amount of IC discussion will fix that.

As I see it Toliudar has said that she would rather ignore me than compromise and would rather stop fully participating in the game than acknowledge my point of view. I don't really see how I can play alongside someone who feels that way, and I personally don't want to be responsible for this game breaking up. Since everyone else seems to agree with her interpretation of the OOC events, I should go.

EDIT: In other words, this game thread may require that the characters in it be willing to work with others who don't respect the same things they do, but my actual life doesn't.

Cespenar
2011-06-25, 06:28 AM
I personally don't think Toliudar meant your character is unimportant with the words "agree to disagree", but that might be my hopeful misinterpretation. Regardless, that seems one of the many tiny factors that needlessly escalated this issue from IC to OOC.

See, it went from "Godot means this, Saffron means that" to "Toliudar sees my character unimportant" and "SPoD is being inflammatory". The latter is the result of the argument getting out of hand and doesn't reflect the truth, in my opinion. The IC part is the real argument, and I know what I'm going to say is not an easy thing, but it would be a better person's move to just forget all the OOC part, take a step back, and resolve the whole thing IC.

An example of a IC resolve: Saffron, having enough, gives the blade back to the man and offers him to duel. Godot, being the pro-life person that she is, objects, but isn't listened by her. Duel happens, Saffron wins, both are angry at each other, but there's a reason to ignore that anger: the plot regarding the mirrors and such. Seeing that there's a greater good to focus on, the duo doesn't stay longer on the issue until something similar will crop up. Which we hopefully would resolve IC as well.

Togo
2011-06-25, 06:48 AM
Wow - I take my eyes of the OOC thread for a moment...

I'm not sure it's my place to interfere in how the party gets along (or doesn't).

However, I would make one suggestion - my feeling is that Saffron's difficulty mainly with the perception that, having dominated the guy once, and discovered that the action Godot wanted him to do would literally drive him to suicide, Godot is preparing to do the same again. I'm not sure if that's true, or if Godot simply wanted to restrain him, but I suspect that it is the idea of intentionally violating someone's will to the extent that they beg for death that's the critical factor here.

I'm not clear if that is what Godot intends to do?

That said, I suspect that some of the comments about distracting or holding up the thread are a little misleading. The problem, and stop me if I'm wrong, is not that the thread is slow, or the party is distracted, but rather that the point that violates people's principles is violating it in a long and drawn-out fashion? Making it that much harder to ignore?

If you guys intend to keep on taking prisoners, and that seems likely, agreeing what you can and can't do to them seems like a useful step. Agreeing to disagree isn't really a solution. I'm not sure having a player leave solves it either.

Toliudar
2011-06-25, 09:12 AM
To clarify: Godot's intention with the second Dominate Person was simply to stop the fight. Which is what she had in fact done. She doesn't have a huge range of spells with which to stop someone in this situation, and Dominate Person had in fact proven effective at doing that. I did not intend to in any way diminish Saffron's character or opinions, which are completely valid, just not shared by Godot. I apologize for my own role in escalating this, and hope that we can continue to play alongside each other.

I'll hold off posting IC until I better understand what the current situation is.

GuesssWho
2011-06-25, 08:44 PM
I'm going with my character is saying that the situation is uncomfortable, unpleasant, depressing and would make me wish I had a drink if I really had to deal with it.

Luckily my character is Chaotic and wise enough to know that she doesn't need to do any such thing, because she isn't one of the idiots who cares about honor before reason.

SPoD
2011-06-26, 07:00 AM
However, I would make one suggestion - my feeling is that Saffron's difficulty mainly with the perception that, having dominated the guy once, and discovered that the action Godot wanted him to do would literally drive him to suicide, Godot is preparing to do the same again. I'm not sure if that's true, or if Godot simply wanted to restrain him, but I suspect that it is the idea of intentionally violating someone's will to the extent that they beg for death that's the critical factor here.

Yes, that's it exactly. The thing is that while the dominate may be used at this moment to stop the fight, it is not an instantaneous spell. It has a duration of one day per level. So there's every reason for the guy (and Saffron) to think that once he is under her thrall again, Godot might ask him to divulge his secrets. If he had made his saving throw, he would have been MORE likely to commit suicide than he was before. Further, once the spell ends, he may still want to kill himself rather than risk Godot taking control again (or if he did spill his secrets, out of shame). Godot can't keep him dominated forever, she's going to need to let him go at some point. At that point, he's probably going to die, either from suicide or by attacking us in frustration. So dominating him just prolongs the situation without resolving it and increases his mental anguish significantly in the meantime.

To Saffron, that was analogous to catching an animal in a trap and letting it twist and scream rather than ending it mercifully. I don't necessarily have a detailed code of honor for Saffron or anything, but anything that I can relate to being a good hunter, she's going to follow.


That said, I suspect that some of the comments about distracting or holding up the thread are a little misleading. The problem, and stop me if I'm wrong, is not that the thread is slow, or the party is distracted, but rather that the point that violates people's principles is violating it in a long and drawn-out fashion? Making it that much harder to ignore?

Yeah, it's not that it was a real problem, it's just that we couldn't do anything else unless we were willing to sign off on whatever treatment other people chose. As it turned out, I didn't get to log on to the site until it was already headed in a direction that was uncomfortable, so when I jumped in I already knew that something was up. If I had logged on earlier, I probably would have been searching an alleyway or something when this all went down.

I wasn't actually upset about the time spent on the interrogation, I more just thought we were at the natural end its lifespan, and was willing to take one for the team in order to move to the next scene.


If you guys intend to keep on taking prisoners, and that seems likely, agreeing what you can and can't do to them seems like a useful step. Agreeing to disagree isn't really a solution. I'm not sure having a player leave solves it either.

Like I said earlier, using dominate monster to get them to talk is acceptable to Saffron most of the time (though she may be more skittish about it now). She's not really cool with forcing them to do things that they would rather die than do, though, whether that's divulge secrets or something else. Most of the time, she won't know that what's being commanded went against their nature, though, unless they break free like this guy did. It was really a fluke set of circumstances, all things considered.


I did not intend to in any way diminish Saffron's character or opinions, which are completely valid, just not shared by Godot. I apologize for my own role in escalating this, and hope that we can continue to play alongside each other.

Accepted, and I apologize as well for anything that you felt was inflammatory. I can be a total bitch sometimes, so it was probably my fault. :smallredface:

In particular, "agree to disagree" happens to be one of those trigger phrases for me, in that I think it's a sentiment that is ruining modern discourse by encouraging people to stop listening to one another, especially in ways that the board's rules forbidding political discussion won't allow me to discuss. So I probably got my panties in a bunch from that point forward, and that's not fair to you. I'm sorry for that.

I don't really want to leave, I like Saffron and Godot and everyone, so I guess unless anyone objects, I'll stick around. Though we really should have an IC conversation about this after its done, too.

Now I have to go take a pile of Constitution damage...:smalleek:

Toliudar
2011-06-26, 10:54 AM
SPoD, I'm thrilled that you've decided to stay.

In the interest of actually articulating some of my reasoning here:


Compulsion magic, by its very definition, forces the affected individual to do things that are against their nature. If they already wanted to do that thing, there would be no need for the spell. I've never seen the "against their nature" clause applied to something out of combat - usually, I've seen it applied in situations where you force the creature to attack a friend, or somesuch.
In my opinion, it is not an evil act to use domination to prevent someone from killing - even if the killing is of themselves.
I'd point out that the images of domination taking the form of mental torture, causing agony and somesuch, are interpretations, and not the rules. If Godot had, for instance, told him to be happy, he would RAW be happy. If I hear from Togo that using dominate person is excruciating for the person affected in this game, I'll ask for permission to swap out the spell.
IRL, most suicidal people don't persist in being suicidal. I read a journal article that suggested that breaking up an individual's path toward self-destruction - chatting with someone while they're on the way to a bridge to jump, a telemarketer's call to someone laying out pills - drastically reduces the chance of them actually going through with the suicide. While it is of course arguable that the mercenary would be just as likely to want to die in an hour, a day, or a week, we don't KNOW that. It is only opinion.
I see the use of dominate in this situation as taking the place of the usual activity with prisoners - tying, interrogating, intimidate or bluff checks, yadda yadda. All of which are of course depriving a prisoner of their ability to choose, and which may indeed cause both short and long-term anguish. I'd like a sense whether Saffron will object to that kind of treatment also, or if there is a preferred way of detaining a prisoner that she WOULD find acceptable.
I think I got my back up when Godot's actions were labeled evil. I'm going to be trying very hard to actually have her be as 'good' a person as she can manage, and the idea that I may have failed miserably the first time out of the gate was distressing to me.


Thanks. I think that I'll probably have Godot go into shock and cry for a good long while, and give others more time in the spotlight.

Togo
2011-06-26, 11:37 AM
I'd point out that the images of domination taking the form of mental torture, causing agony and somesuch, are interpretations, and not the rules. If Godot had, for instance, told him to be happy, he would RAW be happy. If I hear from Togo that using dominate person is excruciating for the person affected in this game, I'll ask for permission to swap out the spell.

Dominate person in and of itself doesn't cause anyone any pain. Doing things they wouldn't otherwise do may or may not be a harrowing experience, depending on what's asked of them.

By RAW, a dominated person follows the instructions given to them, literally and to the best of their ability. 'Be happy' is not really an instruction anyone can follow. Most people can't change how they feel about things.



I think I got my back up when Godot's actions were labeled evil. I'm going to be trying very hard to actually have her be as 'good' a person as she can manage, and the idea that I may have failed miserably the first time out of the gate was distressing to me.


I don't think you've crossed that line, but there was a risk of that. Interrogating prisoners is always a difficult situation, but in general doing bad stuff to them is a bad thing. You can make arguements for 'ticking bomb' scenarios, but I really can't see that applying in this case.

Of course Godot may have had no idea that what she was asking was that bad. (Certainly I doubt she anticipated it was bad enough that the guy would get an additional saving throw.) You've been, in a very real and literal sense, ambushed by an extreme case. To take a peek behind the curtain, these guys were deliberately written to be very dangerous, but very fragile, in several senses of the word.

Toliudar
2011-06-26, 01:53 PM
To take a peek behind the curtain, these guys were deliberately written to be very dangerous, but very fragile, in several senses of the word.

Mission accomplished, I'd say! Thanks for the clarification, Togo.

SPoD
2011-06-27, 07:47 AM
[QUOTE=Toliudar;11289572] Compulsion magic, by its very definition, forces the affected individual to do things that are against their nature. If they already wanted to do that thing, there would be no need for the spell. I've never seen the "against their nature" clause applied to something out of combat - usually, I've seen it applied in situations where you force the creature to attack a friend, or somesuch.

Ah, well, that's a difference of experience, then. I've seen it used many times, usually in situations where the command was considered cruel or torturous. For one (mildly adult) example, click the spoiler:
I was once in a heavy BOVD/BOED-type game where my rogue's background was built around the fact that she had lost her husband and was willing to storm the afterlife to find him, to the point where I regularly rejected the IC advances of another character (played by my RL then-boyfriend) because I would only ever love my (NPC) husband. So when she got dominated by a vile thrallherd who regularly forced both men and women to perform "favors" for him, the DM allowed me to invoke the "against my nature" clause due to her previously-displayed fidelity. Needless to say, he was not able to engage in that particular pastime ever again.

Ironically, that character was on such bad terms with her allies that I'm sure the DM wouldn't have let me invoke it if he had ordered me to just fight them instead!
So I probably took the fact that the DM was invoking it here to represent a near-pathological fear of accidentally betraying his allies, sort of like if you've ever seen a video where they are trying to cure arachnaphobes by bringing spiders into the room.

At any rate, assume that only things bad enough to trigger the "against their nature" reroll outside of combat would actually upset Saffron, and frankly, she won't know that it's happening unless they succeed and say something, like this guy did.


I'd point out that the images of domination taking the form of mental torture, causing agony and somesuch, are interpretations, and not the rules. If Godot had, for instance, told him to be happy, he would RAW be happy. If I hear from Togo that using dominate person is excruciating for the person affected in this game, I'll ask for permission to swap out the spell.

I would agree with Togo that by the rules, emotion control is not within the realm of Dominate Person. That's what spells like Good Hope and Crushing Despair do. Although I also agree that 99% of all subjects will not feel utter anguish toward it, either.


IRL, most suicidal people don't persist in being suicidal. I read a journal article that suggested that breaking up an individual's path toward self-destruction - chatting with someone while they're on the way to a bridge to jump, a telemarketer's call to someone laying out pills - drastically reduces the chance of them actually going through with the suicide. While it is of course arguable that the mercenary would be just as likely to want to die in an hour, a day, or a week, we don't KNOW that. It is only opinion.

I did not know that. :smallsmile: Good to know for the future.


I see the use of dominate in this situation as taking the place of the usual activity with prisoners - tying, interrogating, intimidate or bluff checks, yadda yadda. All of which are of course depriving a prisoner of their ability to choose, and which may indeed cause both short and long-term anguish. I'd like a sense whether Saffron will object to that kind of treatment also, or if there is a preferred way of detaining a prisoner that she WOULD find acceptable.

This is a tricky point, because I think ultimately, Saffron hasn't really ever needed to interrogate at all. She's normally a hunter, sort of a woodlands assassin for the good guys: stalk, kill, go get next mission. So she probably doesn't have a clear idea of what to do, either. But I would think, like I said, MOST of the time, dominate is going to be OK, just as most of the time, tying up and intimidating/bluffing/diplomacy is going to be just peachy. As long as the actual act of tying up doesn't cause injury (i.e. a crippling hemp allergy :smallwink:), it should be fine.


[QUOTE=Toliudar;11289572] I think I got my back up when Godot's actions were labeled evil. I'm going to be trying very hard to actually have her be as 'good' a person as she can manage, and the idea that I may have failed miserably the first time out of the gate was distressing to me.

I understand, and I'm sorry if I upset you.

Obrysii
2011-06-27, 08:45 AM
Sorry I have not posted. Been very busy with work. I am not sure what to add IC though.

Togo
2011-06-27, 12:25 PM
So I probably took the fact that the DM was invoking it here to represent a near-pathological fear of accidentally betraying his allies, sort of like if you've ever seen a video where they are trying to cure arachnaphobes by bringing spiders into the room.

Pretty much. There's really no ambiguity that it was against his nature, and if you take a good hard look at his equipment, you may well be able guess why.

Togo
2011-06-28, 08:03 PM
My last post sort of implies that people are going to follow Kalinor to the compound, because that seemed like the next logical course of action, and I'm trying to keep things moving. If you'd rather stay in the square, or do something else, by all means post that.

SPoD
2011-06-29, 05:57 AM
I'm sorry, I have unexpected family obligations today, tomorrow, and possibly Friday. You can continue without me and assume the Saffron follows along quietly. Sorry I didn't post earlier.

Cespenar
2011-06-29, 07:20 AM
Looking at the sheets, I believe THEchanger has the only character capable of providing clerical aid to Saffron. He seems to be missing for some time, though.

Obrysii
2011-06-29, 07:53 AM
If we procure a Wand of Cure Light Wounds or similar, Androse can easily use it to heal.

Cespenar
2011-06-29, 07:58 AM
Rhion has a wand of CLW and can use it, but it's really the Con damage that counts.

Obrysii
2011-06-29, 09:23 AM
I have lots of ranks in UMD, so any kind of cleric wand will be easy to use.

Togo
2011-07-02, 03:44 AM
A lesser fire crystal can be attached to any weapon that has a +1 bonus or better. It gives that weapon the flaming quality (+1d6 fire damage per hit). One crystal per weapon.

Details of this and all the other items are in the DMG or Magic Item Compendium.

Obrysii
2011-07-02, 07:59 AM
Sorry I have not been posting. I honestly feel a bit lost, and combine that my room (not the outside) temperature is in the mid 90s with a hectic work schedule, and I haven't been able to do anything justice.

GuesssWho
2011-07-02, 05:39 PM
Well, my weapon is already icy. Adding fire would mean that things immune to one kind of damage would get the opposite!

THEChanger
2011-07-02, 09:26 PM
So, I must offer appologizes for my lateness. It was my understanding that there would be Wifi at BU, where I am spending the month of July. However, my laptop apparently is not sufficiently advanced to connect to their network. But, I've figured out an Ethernet cable, so now I have interwebz, and can rejoin the insanity!

GuesssWho
2011-07-03, 11:04 PM
So if no one objects, I'm getting gloves, bracers, cloak and crystal. Scratch one each of those off the list.

SPoD
2011-07-05, 11:19 AM
Just an update to inform everyone in this game (and all my games) that I will continue to be away from the boards all this week. Feel free to convert my character to NPC status until I return. Sorry for the extended absence, I will read everything that's happened when I get back.

For when I get back: The only treasure Saffron is interested in from the list might be the Reins of Ascension, if only because I don't know what they do. What book are they in?

GuesssWho
2011-07-05, 01:06 PM
By the sound of it they make your horse fly.

Ifni
2011-07-06, 01:30 AM
The Reins are in the MIC. They let your mount jump or fly for short periods: I don't think Gylda will benefit much from them, but could be wrong (don't have the book on hand right now).

If we have spare bracers left, Umbriel might grab a pair, just because Str 5 is kinda vulnerable, and she doesn't have anything in that slot. Anyone else who actually uses Str should have higher priority, though.

A question for all of you, actually: do any of you have active spells or items that would block the detection effect of Arcane Sight? If you do, please let me know, else I'm going to assume I know the highest spell level everyone has available to cast, and whether it's arcane or divine (since I get this for free from Arcane Sight if I look at you for six seconds :smallwink:) For reference, Umbriel does not have any protections up against Arcane Sight, if anyone else casts it.

Also, just one thing I wanted to mention: since we've been traveling and chatting for several days at least, I'm happy for you to assume your PCs have a rough idea of Umbriel's spells and abilities, if you want to use that knowledge IC. However, barring some serious mind-control mojo, Umbriel doesn't talk to anyone about where she came from or her full name, she's been trained not to think about it as a precaution against random people scanning with Detect Thoughts (so please, despite the name on the character sheet, please don't ever call her Blackfrost! :smalltongue:) She'll willingly tell you that she worships Wee Jas, she's a seeker after lost knowledge and delver through the ruins of ancient libraries, and she's never been to Sigil and is interested in exploring the Greatest City in the Multiverse. This is all the truth, although a DC 12ish Sense Motive check will reveal that of course there are things she's not saying.

Togo
2011-07-07, 04:52 PM
Apologies for the lack of updates... Real life is being a pain. I should have a post in at least by tomorrow evening.

Toliudar
2011-07-08, 12:21 AM
A question for all of you, actually: do any of you have active spells or items that would block the detection effect of Arcane Sight? If you do, please let me know, else I'm going to assume I know the highest spell level everyone has available to cast, and whether it's arcane or divine (since I get this for free from Arcane Sight if I look at you for six seconds :smallwink:) For reference, Umbriel does not have any protections up against Arcane Sight, if anyone else casts it.

Godot's pretty much an open book, and can cast up to 7th level arcane spells.

Cespenar
2011-07-08, 06:27 AM
Pretty much the same with Rhion, except his mad skills reach up to a whopping 3rd level divine spells.

Obrysii
2011-07-08, 09:59 AM
I believe, perhaps incorrectly, that Androse glows with transmutation magic, since he is using a Supernatural effect to achieve his human likeness.

With wands, he can cast any spell up to 4th level. He may be able to use staves, but I'm not sure, as he hasn't acquired his first caster level yet (he will at level 20).

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-07-08, 05:49 PM
Derk is a 13th level sorcerer and has no means to hide it. He is too proud of his heritage and too much of a show-off.

Togo
2011-07-08, 06:08 PM
Hokay, two points. Neither are diretly relevent to the present scene.

First, a technical point. Sigil has co-terminous ethereal and astral planes. What that means in practice, is that yes, you can teleport, and yes, you can go ethereal and blink, and so on. You can also have ghosts, telepathy, etc.

However these planes are co-terminoius, which means they don't extend anywhere or go anywhere beyond Sigil itself. You can't teleport into or out of Sigil, and there aren't any places to go etherally or astrally that aren't also physical locations.

Apologies if that point wasn't clear. I wasn't clear on it myself at the start, but I think this is the best solution to the fact that there are numerous technical problems with a physical reality that doesn't have this. Please let me know if you think otherwise.



Secondly, one or two people have said they're getting a bit lost on the plot, and I can see how that would happen, particularly if this isn't your only game. I'll be writing up a summary of what's happened and the main characters so far over the next day or so, but if there are any specific points you want me to clarify, please let know, either here or by PM.

Obrysii
2011-07-08, 10:17 PM
I will admit I'm getting lost - not due to other games, but due to the fact real life likes to get in the way too much!

GuesssWho
2011-07-09, 04:53 AM
Feel free to know whatever you like about Sthrer.

Speaking of which, I can imagine things getting . . . interesting if the others find out about her heritage. :D

Toliudar
2011-07-09, 09:06 AM
Feel free to know whatever you like about Sthrer.

Speaking of which, I can imagine things getting . . . interesting if the others find out about her heritage. :D

Maybe I'm not picturing Sthrerrbhna's appearance correctly. Doesn't she have tentacles, gills, big eyes and a tail? I think we'd be pretty clear that there's something unusual with her. Even if she has shapechanging, there's enough variations on True Seeing floating around this group...it might be easiest for us to just know.

GuesssWho
2011-07-09, 03:15 PM
Yeah, but the tentacles are hidden under her clothes, her gills are barely noticable and her extra eyes are small and kept closed when not needed. Sometimes the best disguise isn't magical, just common sense.

The tail, though, is a bit obvious. But then weird things abound in Sigil, and that's not the same as being a Lovecraftian entity. Even a minor one.

THEChanger
2011-07-09, 08:35 PM
Rolling Know Religion and History to see what I know about those lovely little stories they mentioned, if anything.
Religion-[roll0]
History-[roll1]

GuesssWho
2011-07-09, 10:31 PM
I guess I'll roll Know. (Arcana), since it's a magic item?

[roll0]

Toliudar
2011-07-09, 11:34 PM
Ditto on the stories and mirror:

Know arcana: [roll0]
Know history: [roll1]
Know religion: [roll2]

Ifni
2011-07-10, 12:25 AM
Ah, this is fun :smallsmile: So many things that neither I nor Umbriel knew about Sigil...

I have no objections to the teleport ruling, but is that something I would know on a Knowledge check, or something I should have Umbriel ask about IC? She was assuming the converse was true in the last fight, and she will probably call in and cast an Anticipate Teleportation spell at the earliest opportunity, once she knows otherwise.

Please advise if there are any notable auras in this area, if my Arcane Sight is still going.

Umbriel's Knowledge checks on everything that might possibly be relevant to the mirror:

Arcana [roll0]
Planes [roll1]
Religion [roll2]
History [roll3]
Dungeoneering [roll4] (perhaps it was retrieved from some dark, deep, dungeon?)
Nobility & Royalty [roll5] (or the pride of some noble's castle, the scrying mirror he used to maintain his rule?)
Architecture and Engineering [roll6] (perhaps it was the castle that was famous, not the noble?)
Geography [roll7] (to recognize places they were talking about)
Nature [roll8] (to understand the mirror-making process being discussed, and see if it makes sense or could have any unexpected side-effects)


Also, Knowledge (Local) [roll9] to see if I know anything about Nephira, Knowledge (Local) [roll10] and Knowledge (Religion) [roll11] on the temple that was at the site.

SPoD
2011-07-11, 02:59 PM
Hey guys, I'm back, but there's too much to read to post right this second. In particular, I need to go and check who healed me how much and when. I'll try to do that later tonight or tomorrow, and then I can post normally again.

Ifni
2011-07-11, 06:29 PM
Regarding Derk's comment about tactical discussions, Umbriel would like to do this as well, but if we don't get to cover everything IC, the main points that Umbriel would go over in any such discussion are:

(anyone can read the following, including the GM, there's nothing in there particularly tricksy or secret :smallwink:)
Combat tactical considerations:

-My familiar has Mass Fly imbued, and I have it prepped. If more than one person needs to fly in any given combat, it's probably more spell- and action-efficient to let Umbriel/Valthrax toss it up. However, keep in mind that Mass Fly (a) has the same targeting limitations as Haste (everyone needs to be within 30ft) and (b) you need to have a fly-buddy who stays within 30ft of you, the spell will lapse if you're ever more than 30ft away from everyone else affected. (Familiars can play this role for casters, if they're targetable when I cast the spell.)

-I have the spell Dimension Step from PHB2, and also Greater Dimension Door and Benign Transposition (SpC). The primary purpose of these spells, for me, is to shuttle people into the places where they need to be, e.g. full attack range for meleers :smallwink: Now that it's clarified we can teleport-hop around in Sigil, I am more than happy to put people right next to the big nasty monsters so they can unload a full attack (or conversely, to snatch casters out of "grappled, silenced, help!" situations). If you can let me know which PCs would like to be placed next to big nasty monsters, that would be very helpful :smalltongue: More generally, if your PC ever has some critical thing they need to do in combat that requires them to be in a different spot and you can't afford a move action (or can't get far enough), please just let me know: Umbriel is pretty mobile and can spontaneously quicken benign transposition.

-I have Mass Resist Energy as a spontaneous spell. If we are fighting something with nasty energy attacks, I'll put it up (or I can do Mass Fireshield if that looks like a better option). As with flight magic, unless only 1-2 people need the resistance, it's probably a better use of actions for me to cast this than for people to put up their own individual resist energy spells.


Long-term buffs:

-I have Phantom Steed as a spontaneous spell. If it would be advantageous to you to have a fragile flying horse, just let me know :smallsmile: This is usually a good option for casters but a bad option for people who are going into melee (because the steeds are fragile), unless you're a charger who needs a renewable flying mount.

-If there is a fighter bonus feat that you would like, tell me and I will gladly give it to you with Heroics - this lasts 200 minutes, or 400 if extended. (Note I have 16 spells of this level, between wizard and beguiler: please don't feel you'd be depleting my resources!) As examples, perhaps Power Attack for Derk (since Godot is providing that lovely +8 attack bonus), or Woodland Archer (RotW) for Saffron?

-If you pay the cost and tell me a day in advance, I am happy to cast Create Magic Tattoo (CL 20) on anyone who asks.

-If anyone is an AC tank and doesn't have natural armor yet (or alternatively, is planning to melee and doesn't have very good AC), let me know and I can give you a 7-hour-ish Extended Spiderskin.


I'm absolutely not trying to tell any of you what to do in combat, but tactical coordination is good, and I have all these pretty buffs I'd like to get to use :smallwink: (and Umbriel's spellbooks/sheet are a bit of a pain to wade through)

If anyone has specific spell requests please let me know as well, I'm sure we can find scrolls for purchase in Sigil :smallsmile:

Toliudar
2011-07-11, 07:29 PM
Thanks ifni.

I don't have too much to add to the buffing discussion:
Inspire Courage is Godot's primary contribution to group impact in combat. After that, she's mostly focused on action denial.

I LOVE me some phantom steed. Godot's got the spell, though, so will normally be able to take care of it herself.