Ashworm Dragoon?

[Tvtyrant]

A prc from Sandstorm that looks like it basically does the entire mounted Paladin thing but better. Has anyone actually played one, and how did it go?

[Veyr]

It seems interesting; unfortunately the only campaign I played one in died after not-very-long.

[LOTRfan]

I started writing a Deadliest Warrior-esque article comparing the Ashworm Dragoon to the Halfling Outrider. Over all, the Ashworm Dragoon was better. I don't know if that helps give you an idea or not as to how powerful it is, though....

[Tvtyrant]

I started writing a Deadliest Warrior-esque article comparing the Ashworm Dragoon to the Halfling Outrider. Over all, the Ashworm Dragoon was better. I don't know if that helps give you an idea or not as to how powerful it is, though....

A Supermount Halfling Outrider or a normal one?

[LOTRfan]

Normal. Whats a supermount outrider?

[Tvtyrant]

Normal. Whats a supermount outrider?

I believe there is some build that uses it to stack familiar, mount and animal companion for an unholy abomination that is several times stronger than its "rider."

[Amphetryon]

Normal. Whats a supermount outrider?

Animal Companion shenanigans to make piles of damage.

[Tvtyrant]

Anyone know of a good way to get the Ashworm to fly? That and some sort of breathing item would make it much better at its job.

[LOTRfan]

Grafts, perhaps?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

My one complaint against Ashworm Dragoon is that it prevents a Paladin that takes it from keeping its worm's poison stinger.:smallyuk:

That being said, grafts do cover flight, but I believe that comes at the price of making will saves or be evil. A specialized flying armor for your mount could also work. Most anything that works for a human fighter should work for the worm. As for breathing, since you are underground for short bursts, you should be fine unless you have no constitution score worth speaking of, and, in that case, well, you're probably either undead anyways!:smalltongue:

Off the top of my head, warforged, necropolitans, and air genasai have some form of "not breathing" as a racial feature. I also think there is a cheap item akin to a never ending bottle or water, but for fresh air.

[Tvtyrant]

My one complaint against Ashworm Dragoon is that it prevents a Paladin that takes it from keeping its worm's poison stinger.:smallyuk:

That being said, grafts do cover flight, but I believe that comes at the price of making will saves or be evil. A specialized flying armor for your mount could also work. Most anything that works for a human fighter should work for the worm. As for breathing, since you are underground for short bursts, you should be fine unless you have no constitution score worth speaking of, and, in that case, well, you're probably either undead anyways!:smalltongue:

Off the top of my head, warforged, necropolitans, and air genasai have some form of "not breathing" as a racial feature. I also think there is a cheap item akin to a never ending bottle or water, but for fresh air.

Right, but the short bursts are due to the breathing of you and the worm. If I could find a magical breathing item I could make it practically infinite!

I will look into grafts and see whether the worm could make the saves.

[Tvtyrant]

Periapt of the Sullen Sea lets you hold your breathe for 12 hours and isn't that expensive, so that deals with the diving problems.

Reins of Ascension give mount flight! Awesome! Not much duration, but their cheap.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Right, but the short bursts are due to the breathing of you and the worm. If I could find a magical breathing item I could make it practically infinite!

I will look into grafts and see whether the worm could make the saves.

Page 67: there is a sidebar that says that as many paladins forswear the use of poison, they clip the poison stinger the up side is that the Ashworm counts as a the paladin mount.

[Big Fau]

Periapt of the Sullen Sea lets you hold your breathe for 12 hours and isn't that expensive, so that deals with the diving problems.

Reins of Ascension give mount flight! Awesome! Not much duration, but their cheap.

Being Warforged negates the need for a breathing item altogether. But for a human, there's several mundane cheap items that can do the job:


Air Plant (Stormwrack): You hold it in your mouth and you've got 5 minutes worth of air.

Breathing Mask (Savage Species): Up to 4 hours of air per canister.

[Tvtyrant]

Being Warforged negates the need for a breathing item altogether. But for a human, there's several mundane cheap items that can do the job:


Air Plant (Stormwrack): You hold it in your mouth and you've got 5 minutes worth of air.

Breathing Mask (Savage Species): Up to 4 hours of air per canister.

The Warforged one is the cheapest, but the stupid worm still has to breath. That is why the periapt seems the best go, though I don't know if they can wear it.

[Big Fau]

The Warforged one is the cheapest, but the stupid worm still has to breath. That is why the periapt seems the best go, though I don't know if they can wear it.

...You know, I'm not even surprised WotC didn't put that there. That is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

[gorfnab]

Normal. Whats a supermount outrider?
Here you go.


LG Strongheart Halfling
1. Paladin - Mounted Combat, Track
2. Paladin
3. Paladin - Skill Focus: Handle Animal (prereq for Beast Master)
4. Paladin
5. Paladin
6. Beastmaster - Devoted Tracker
7. Beastmaster
8. Wild Plains Outrider
9. Wild Plains Outrider - Mounted Archery
10. Wild Plains Outrider
11. Halfling Outrider
12. Halfling Outrider - Natural Bond
13. Halfling Outrider
14. Halfling Outrider
15. Halfling Outrider - Ride By Attack (or some other feat)
16. Halfling Outrider
17. Halfling Outrider
18. Halfling Outrider - Spirited Charge (or some other feat)
19. Halfling Outrider
20. Halfling Outrider

At 20th level, thanks to Devoted Tracker, your Supermount's abilities are that of an 18th level Paladin Mount and an 18th level Druid Animal Companion combined.
Special Mount: 18th level Paladin = Paladin 5 + Wild Plains 3 + Half-Out 10
Animal Companion: 18th level Druid = Beast Master 5 + Natural Bond 3 + Half-Out 10

[Tvtyrant]

...You know, I'm not even surprised WotC didn't put that there. That is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

Especially since worms don't have to come up to breath in RL. Oh well. The sad part is a wizard beats the Ashworm Dragoon by dominate monstering a Purple Worm and then riding it while chuckling.

[DarkestKnight]

In the creature entry it says that when the worm is engaging in shennanigins (AKA failed ride check in appropriate terrain) it can burrow for 1d4 rounds which indicates that it can breathe for a while underground.

Going by it's related PRC the level 10 ability (yes there is a lesser version at lvl 6, but only for sand) lets you stay underground for 10 min per class level, which means 100 min since its the last level, which IMO is plenty of time to do anything other than get to the other side of the earth.

I've done some work on riding classes, and the dragoon is good but your damage out put isn't as high as what other riding classes (cavalier im looking at you) can do. that being said you get a few big perks.
1) you can use the ride skill as many times as you want to negate attacks. no other class (to my mortal knowledge) has that.
2) your mount can make tunnels for you. sneaking into a building? you now have your own private cellar entrance. This is fairly big because the biggest drawback for a riding character is when you have to get off your mount. caves, castles, taverns and brothels. all will make most mount oriented characters feel nervous, like when the wizard realizes his spellbook was left at the bar two towns ago, and was just jumped by a cat.

If you are going Ashworm Dragoon, i would recommend capitalizing on the fact that people might not know your mount is under your very feet when you are not riding it. i wouldn't recommend going paladin with this, as they tend to be worried about silly things like property damage. Overall i would say you will likely have fun with this, as long as your dm doesn't mess with you about terrain.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Especially since worms don't have to come up to breath in RL. Oh well. The sad part is a wizard beats the Ashworm Dragoon by dominate monstering a Purple Worm and then riding it while chuckling.

To be fair, it isn't a purple worm, but rather its smaller cousin. To be more fair, if a wizard does dominate monster the worm, his rider can make ride checks to tell him "NO! Bad boy!":smalltongue:

[TroubleBrewing]

Going by it's related PRC the level 10 ability (yes there is a lesser version at lvl 6, but only for sand) lets you stay underground for 10 min per class level, which means 100 min since its the last level, which IMO is plenty of time to do anything other than get to the other side of the earth.

It's actually just 1 min/class level, but the point remains: That's 10 rounds per class level, or 100 rounds below solid earth. That's plenty of time.



1) you can use the ride skill as many times as you want to negate attacks. no other class (to my mortal knowledge) has that.


Wild Plains Outrider might have it. I'm AFB, so I can't confirm.



2) your mount can make tunnels for you. sneaking into a building? you now have your own private cellar entrance.


The MM entry for Burrow disagrees. It states that unless the creature entry specifically says it leaves a tunnel behind, it does not leave one. The Ashworm entry has no specification.




i wouldn't recommend going paladin with this, as they tend to be worried about silly things like property damage.

No, no, no. It can become a Paladin Mount with a ritual. This makes it great for paladins.

[DarkestKnight]

Having looked into the MM specifically for that I do believe i was wrong about that it can make tunnels for you, but the point that you can effectively have the worm take you into there remains.


As to the paladin effectiveness, i was merely pointing out that if you are burrowing through peoples walls and through the ground of a city, you will do considerable damage to infastructure, and a paladin might not want to do that without a very good reason. i do understand that paladin mounts are awesome. the variant alignment paladins might work though...

[Tvtyrant]

Paladin of Freedom Ashworm Dragoon time! Though my steed loses its ability to stab things. Oh well, I can still full attack on a move action.

[Sitzkrieg]

When I played an Ashworm Dragoon, I used the extra HD gained from making it my paladin mount to get the Shock Trooper feat (which puts the power attack penalty onto your AC instead of your attack roll). Since the mount's AC is based off of your ride check, and you can do this an unlimited number of times per round, your Ashworm can power attack for full every round at literally no penalty whatsoever. The stinger is the Ashworm's primary weapon too, so it will double the power attack like a two-handed weapon.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Paladin of Freedom Ashworm Dragoon time! Though my steed loses its ability to stab things. Oh well, I can still full attack on a move action.

Hell, if you're going so far as to use Paladin of Freedom, just ask your DM to let your mount keep its only natural defensive in the event of a fight!:smalltongue:

[TroubleBrewing]

ask your DM to let your mount keep its only natural defensive in the event of a fight!:smalltongue:

Apart from it's terrible maw filled with innumerable teeth? :smallconfused:

Just playing devil's advocate. I'm totally on your side here. :-P

[Tvtyrant]

Apart from it's terrible maw filled with innumerable teeth? :smallconfused:

Just playing devil's advocate. I'm totally on your side here. :-P

It doesn't have a bite attack.

[TroubleBrewing]

It doesn't have a bite attack.

*Runs and checks book*

wut

:smallfurious:

[Tvtyrant]

So you get a cool mount that cannot attack and has to come up for air; because melee isn't allowed nice things!

[TroubleBrewing]

I think that sums this thread up nicely. :smalltongue:

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I think that sums this thread up nicely. :smalltongue:

It's neither here nor there, but when I had a player want to play an Ashworm Dragoon, my solution was to instead throw the party a +1 large mouthpick weapon and just let the bugger use it. The fact that it doesn't have a natural bite attack is just bizarre. I do think Shape Soulmeld (SOMETHING) would solve that problem, though... I hope.

[Big Fau]

It's neither here nor there, but when I had a player want to play an Ashworm Dragoon, my solution was to instead throw the party a +1 large mouthpick weapon and just let the bugger use it. The fact that it doesn't have a natural bite attack is just bizarre. I do think Shape Soulmeld (SOMETHING) would solve that problem, though... I hope.

Threefold Mask of the Chimera, Winter Mask, Worg Pelt, Behir Gorget, all of which require Totemist for the chakra bind.



Or you can use the Fanged Mask in the MIC, which gives a natural bite attack fairly cheaply.

[Tvtyrant]

Can you put spikes on barding? Because +5 defending spikes would be a great addition.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Threefold Mask of the Chimera, Winter Mask, Worg Pelt, Behir Gorget, all of which require Totemist for the chakra bind.



Or you can use the Fanged Mask in the MIC, which gives a natural bite attack fairly cheaply.

Oi, that's just cruel to the poor thing! It's a worm that can only hit and run with its tail, nothing else to back it up as presented. If it could get access to the totem chakra without actually grabbing levels, that might not be too bad, but, at the end of the day, it is still far easier just blowing your money on items instead of buying feats normally.:smallsigh:


Armor spikes a good back up, idea, though.

[Big Fau]

Oi, that's just cruel to the poor thing! It's a worm that can only hit and run with its tail, nothing else to back it up as presented. If it could get access to the totem chakra without actually grabbing levels, that might not be too bad, but, at the end of the day, it is still far easier just blowing your money on items instead of buying feats normally.:smallsigh:


Armor spikes a good back up, idea, though.

WotC design at it's finest.

[Mauther]

I've never played one as a PC but I've used them as NPCs and been pretty satisfied. The tunneling ability is useful as all. It can make it difficult to track you, it breaks line of effect on spells so you can close into melee range without getting bombarded on the approach, and you can create underground entrances to structures for secure havens. The downside, no matter how scary/effective you are, some smartass will call you the Knights of Tequila.