Is their anything Evil that can take on a Seraphim (from the Immortals Handbook)

[Sims]

People are always going around saying how the forces of evil are stronger and what not, but I think just sticking one Seraph in the Abyss would end all their problems.

Seriously, have you read aobut them!? ITs ridiculous! They are too dam strong!

[Urpriest]

That book also has a nigh-unkillable Dispater. I assume their Demon Princes are similarly potent.

[Kylarra]

From what I remember, the immortals handbook is mostly just moar-big-numbers++ tacked on to a vaguely-recognizable-as-classic-monster chassis .

[kardar233]

And Draedens. Don't forget those.

In fact, through a whole bunch of Wild Mass Guessing and Epileptic Trees a group of mine has expanded the Draeden concept into a full alternate multiverse-beginning story, complete with two creator races, a set of Demiurges and the origins of the Great Wheels.

[Chess435]

Cool! If it's on the 'net, could you post a link? If not, could you at least give us a general summary?

[The Glyphstone]

Ah, the Immortals Handbook. The result of putting boxing gloves on a group of epileptic monkeys, giving them a number pad, and putting some names and labels on an hour's output.

[Amiel]

You must do a review of the Immortal's Handbook, Glyphstone, it would be glorious.

[Chess435]

I should start Glyphstone's Glorious Immortal's Handbook Bash-O-Meter! This is like the 3rd thread I've seen you give the good-old epileptic monkeys speech.

[Sims]

I should start Glyphstone's Glorious Immortal's Handbook Bash-O-Meter! This is like the 3rd thread I've seen you give the good-old epileptic monkeys speech.

Its HD was like 147d1000 (or was it d10,000, it may have actually been 1470d1000)
and it has an aura that instantly kills anything evil with 88HD or less within 500ft.

It had an AC of like 200 and somthing and Regenration 85, and DR 85/-

It had a bunch of God-mod abilities too. Like its protective aura is "Octuple" the effect of a normal Angel.

I read about some other angels. There was this Assassin lookin one floating next to a decapitated Marilith.

[Tvtyrant]

Its HD was like 147d1000 (or was it d10,000, it may have actually been 1470d1000)
and it has an aura that instantly kills anything evil with 88HD or less within 500ft.

It had an AC of like 200 and somthing and Regenration 85, and DR 85/-

It had a bunch of God-mod abilities too. Like its protective aura is "Octuple" the effect of a normal Angel.

I read about some other angels. There was this Assassin lookin one floating next to a decapitated Marilith.

Is the aura a death effect? Because if so evil gods are immune :P

[Shadowknight12]

Is the aura a death effect? Because if so evil gods are immune :P

Any divine caster with a fourth (or fifth) level slot is immune too (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm). :smallwink:

[Sims]

Is the aura a death effect? Because if so evil gods are immune :P

EDIT: I was wrong, and Ninja'd its a "Supernatural effect", it doesn't say death effect, but meh, its your call.
EDIT2: I was wrong about the AC, but apparently it has 4 heads, each can attack with Divine Fire dealing 4444 damage on average EACH. And when it dies, it comes back 1d10 rounds later. T_T

Even so, you really shouldn't be taking this thing on with less than that HD. It can cast Holy Word at will I think as a swift action 4times.

Heres the site:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/54738242/The-Immortals-Handbook-Epic-Bestiary-Volume-One-v1-5-EPI1000

Type "Seraphim" into the search, but beware, the site is slow.

[Shadowknight12]

EDIT: I was wrong, and Ninja'd

Even so, you really shouldn't be taking this thing on with less than that HD. It can cast Holy Word at will I think as a swift action 4times.

Meh. A batman wizard still wins.

EDIT: Okay. A slightly competent batman wizard still wins.

[Sims]

Meh. A batman wizard still wins.

EDIT: Okay. A slightly competent batman wizard still wins.

They are immune to ALL non-epic magic, and have a spell resistance of 110 or more.

Plus they have true seeing.

[Big Fau]

Ah, the Immortals Handbook. The result of putting boxing gloves on a group of epileptic monkeys, giving them a number pad, and putting some names and labels on an hour's output.

It's like someone put a wireless keyboard inside a dryer, then did 40 full cycles while Word was open, right?


Like any book, there's some good things in there. But this was completely fan-made, and the bad parts outweigh the good.

[Chess435]

Meh. A batman wizard still wins.

EDIT: Okay. A slightly competent batman wizard still wins.

Enlighten us. How does a Batman Wizard kill one of these things pre-epic?

[Shadowknight12]

They are immune to ALL non-epic magic, and have a spell resistance of 140 or more.

Plus they have true seeing.

Use SR: No spells. Also, Summon Monster spells. And True Seeing doesn't mean anything when you're still shapechanged into a Hechatonchires. "Oh, yes, I see you're a puny mortal and not a true Hechatonchires, but I'm slightly more concerned over the fact that you're strangling me with my own intestines. Wait, is that my spleen on the next plane over?"

[Sims]

Enlighten us. How does a Batman Wizard kill one of these things pre-epic?

Especially when its immune to non epic magic XD and has True seeing

[Sims]

Use SR: No spells. Also, Summon Monster spells. And True Seeing doesn't mean anything when you're still shapechanged into a Hechatonchires. "Oh, yes, I see you're a puny mortal and not a true Hechatonchires, but I'm slightly more concerned over the fact that you're strangling me with my own intestines. Wait, is that my spleen on the next plane over?"

You can only turn into a Hecton-whatever if you have an HD equal to it or greater.

Plus, in one blast, a Seraphim can deal, ON AVERAGE 4444 damage with just ONE of its heads. Non-reducible divine damage.

[Tvtyrant]

Especially when its immune to non epic magic XD and has True seeing

Except "immune to magic" only means SR. Orb spells still work, and can get damage figures that would at least hurt the thing.

Also, shapechange into a Balhannoth and grapple.

[Shadowknight12]

Enlighten us. How does a Batman Wizard kill one of these things pre-epic?

Wish and a Thought Bottle.

Or, if you're feeling fancy, accumulate Caster Levels (from items, feats, buffs, etc) and Shapechange into a Solar. Voila, you're a cleric, a wizard and you can cast Wish for free once per day. Have a half-way decent Bluff check and you can command a celestial army to help you, too. Oh, the irony.

[LOTRfan]

Why is true seeing so good, in this case? :smallconfused:

[Sims]

Except "immune to magic" only means SR. Orb spells still work, and can get damage figures that would at least hurt the thing.

Also, shapechange into a Balhannoth and grapple.

Ya'll are ignoring alot of stuff XD. Its SR is only for Epic spells. Its immune to those lower.

And it has an attack against grapplers that deals alot of damage. Please read it on that PDF for more info.

[Tvtyrant]

Ya'll are ignoring alot of stuff XD. Its SR is only for Epic spells. Its immune to those lower.

And it has an attack against grapplers that deals alot of damage. Please read it on that PDF for more info.

1. magic immunity means infinite SR; SR: no spells aren't hitting them with magic, it hits them with a mundane object that was formed using magic.

2. I agree that the Balhannoth ability wouldn't work due to strength differences. However all of its abilities are SU, so its simply a matter of boosting strength to higher than the serpahims.

3. Contingency: Wish allows you to make an infinite amount of dirt to drop on it, since dirt has no cost. This means you simply have to make a measly 2200000 pounds of dirt over its head and it dies on an average roll.

[Sims]

1. magic immunity means infinite SR; SR: no spells aren't hitting them with magic, it hits them with a mundane object that was formed using magic.

What about the 4444 damage per head per turn?

[Shadowknight12]

Ya'll are ignoring alot of stuff XD. Its SR is only for Epic spells. Its immune to those lower.

And it has an attack against grapplers that deals alot of damage. Please read it on that PDF for more info.

We're not ignoring anything. Immunity To Magic is not immunity to magic. It merely means that it is considered to have an unbeatable SR (check out the Golems' descriptions for more information).

Divine damage can be protected against. I recall a few builds that spouted "immunity to all types of damage" and Divine was one of those.


You can only turn into a Hecton-whatever if you have an HD equal to it or greater.

Plus, in one blast, a Seraphim can deal, ON AVERAGE 4444 damage with just ONE of its heads. Non-reducible divine damage.

Up to a limit of 25HD, yeah. Shapechange into something with the Supernatural ability to become another creature, only not limited by HD. Presto.

[Dusk Eclipse]

1. magic immunity means infinite SR; SR: no spells aren't hitting them with magic, it hits them with a mundane object that was formed using magic.

I think with enough CL shenanigans and Reserve of Strengths (with the reading it breaks all the CL caps and not just extend it by three) one can make an orb of fire capable to damage this guy.

[Shadowknight12]

What about the 4444 damage per head per turn?

Unbeatable AC, saves, DR, concealment, SR, etc. There are many ways to avoid something so trivial as damage.

[LOTRfan]

Ya'll are ignoring alot of stuff XD. Its SR is only for Epic spells. Its immune to those lower.

He's right, guys. Angels of the First Choir are immune to all non-epic magic. No exceptions based on SR: No spells.

I still don't see why its so great he has true seeing, though.

[Sims]

We're not ignoring anything. Immunity To Magic is not immunity to magic. It merely means that it is considered to have an unbeatable SR (check out the Golems' descriptions for more information).

Divine damage can be protected against. I recall a few builds that spouted "immunity to all types of damage" and Divine was one of those.



Up to a limit of 25HD, yeah. Shapechange into something with the Supernatural ability to become another creature, only not limited by HD. Presto.

You'd have to do it as a free-action. Impossible pre-epic, but I see where you're going with it. You really can take these creatures down. They are killable.

The problem with this one is that it comes back in 1d10 turns. So it'd probably outlast us. Even so, killing it is a feat in itself.

[Shadowknight12]

He's right, guys. Angels of the First Choir are immune to all non-epic magic. No exceptions based on SR: No spells.

I still don't see why its so great he has true seeing, though.

We HAVE to interpret it as it appears on the Golem entry or a lot of things start falling apart. What happens if the Seraphim encounters something made of magic with SR: No, like a Conjuration effect? Does he treat it as it "not being there"? What happens to buffs on others? Does he ignore them? Does he treat a Shapechanged wizard as a regular wizard? Is he simply immune to spells that actively target him?

Really, treating it as a new kind of Immunity to Magic is just begging for trouble.

[Shadowknight12]

You'd have to do it as a free-action. Impossible pre-epic, but I see where you're going with it. You really can take these creatures down. They are killable.

The problem with this one is that it comes back in 1d10 turns. So it'd probably outlast us. Even so, killing it is a feat in itself.

Time Stop, my friend. Time Stop. Lots and lots and lots of Time Stop.

Wish has a precedence of "making things stay dead" so I would use that. Or Miracle. Miracle CAN actually do anything. And guess what a Solar can cast?

[Kylarra]

It's just one of the sillier numbers numbers numbers lol lots of immunities monsters in the book. Not as silly as the neutronium golem, but still very silly.

[LOTRfan]

Okay, then. What about the next part, where it says that it is immune to all conjuration, necromancy, illusion, and abjuration spells?

I am not saying you are wrong (in fact, the fact that they have this separated from the main magic-immunity entry supports your interpretation), but how would that be interpreted?

[Amiel]

I still don't see why its so great he has true seeing, though.

It's the angelic equivalent of the Lightning Warrior familiar.

[Shadowknight12]

Okay, then. What about the next part, where it says that it is immune to all conjuration, necromancy, illusion, and abjuration spells?

I am not saying you are wrong (in fact, the fact that they have this separated from the main magic-immunity entry supports your interpretation), but how would that be interpreted?

Hilarious redundancy. Note how that's part of the same sentence ("They are immune to non-epic magic AND..."). Or that they are also immune (read: possess unbeatable SR) to epic magic of those schools.

[LOTRfan]

It's the angelic equivalent of the Lightning Warrior familiar.

So without it, he'd be giving up power for flavor? :smalltongue:

[Sims]

It's the angelic equivalent of the Lightning Warrior familiar.

Its just so you don't try invisibility XD

[Tvtyrant]

So without it, he'd be giving up power for flavor? :smalltongue:

But with it he gives up san points for power.

[Divide by Zero]

It's the angelic equivalent of the Lightning Warrior familiar.

But the Lightning Warrior doesn't have a familiar. That's why it's so underpowered.

[ericgrau]

Any divine caster with a fourth (or fifth) level slot is immune too (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm). :smallwink:

Only if you made your DC 1010 knowledge(religion) check or someone else took the hit first. Otherwise your entire party dies and then you try to cast the spell, which is pretty useless.

[Tvtyrant]

You know some of the lower CR creatures aren't so bad. The Quintessence elementals could be interesting for instance.

[Shadowknight12]

Only if you made your DC 1010 knowledge(religion) check or someone else took the hit first. Otherwise your entire party dies and then you try to cast the spell, which is pretty useless.

Or you find out all about the monster thanks to the myriad divinations at your disposal. Finding out things about a monster through the use of Knowledge skills stops being necessary once things like Vision and Commune become available.

And really, if you have a cleric in the party, why hasn't she Persisted it yet with DMM? Some types of attacks crop up fairly often, so Death Ward is actually one of those spells you always want to have persisted on the entire party just in case. Or Mass Death Ward, actually, for the sake of efficiency.

[Worira]

My hombrew devil could do it he chas an attk bonus of +googolplexplex witch is like a googleplex but iy has the ord plex a vgoolgeplex times and each one is anothre times of a goggeplex

alos he \has gamadge of Σ(G)d5

[Sims]

Or you find out all about the monster thanks to the myriad divinations at your disposal. Finding out things about a monster through the use of Knowledge skills stops being necessary once things like Vision and Commune become available.

And really, if you have a cleric in the party, why hasn't she Persisted it yet with DMM? Some types of attacks crop up fairly often, so Death Ward is actually one of those spells you always want to have persisted on the entire party just in case. Or Mass Death Ward, actually, for the sake of efficiency.

Isn't it immune to them kinda spells. Someone listed the schools it was immune to a few posts back.

[Amiel]

Its just so you don't try invisibility XD


But the Lightning Warrior doesn't have a familiar. That's why it's so underpowered.


So without it, he'd be giving up power for flavor? :smalltongue:

Definitely! He's a bit weak for it.


I like how Seraphims are known as angels of love, yet force utter obliteration to whomsoever dares gazes upon its visage, "for the very sight of them can overwhelm lesser opponents causing them to explode with rapture"; so you'll explode but be grateful; a hilarious disconnect there.

[Tvtyrant]

Nobody gonna comment on my "drop dirt on it" comment? :(

[Shadowknight12]

Isn't it immune to them kinda spells. Someone listed the schools it was immune to a few posts back.

Not really. Sure, he'd be immune to divinations that specifically targeted him AND allowed SR: Yes (or a save), like Scrying. But a lot of divinations simply pull the information out of thin air (or the gods, or the gods' servants). In the end, that information is available to you unless the DM decides he wants to be difficult.

[Sims]

Nobody gonna comment on my "drop dirt on it" comment? :(

Pretty sure you wouldn't get close enough to do it hahaha XD

[Tvtyrant]

Pretty sure you wouldn't get close enough to do it hahaha XD

That is why it is contingency. And technically you could drop it on the thing from anywhere! Wish is broken.

[The Glyphstone]

Guys, remember that 'Immunity to Magic' comes in two flavors. The lesser kind, found on most golems, is the Infinite SR flavor. Some of the Epic Golems have Magical Immunity, which is written differently and doesn't have the Spell Resistance clause...and since it was never updated in the 3.5 transition, its wording would stand by RAW.

That just means we have to work to overcome the challenge though.:smallbiggrin:


EDIT: This point was already made, I see. Eh. Blah blah monkeys or something.

[Shadowknight12]

Nobody gonna comment on my "drop dirt on it" comment? :(

As a DM, I would have to find a way to see how that translates into damage, so I would rule that it behaves like the Cometstrike spell. It's not perfect, so it would need more alterations.

[Sims]

As a DM, I would have to find a way to see how that translates into damage, so I would rule that it behaves like the Cometstrike spell. It's not perfect, so it would need more alterations.

Whats Cometstrike do?

[Kylarra]

Even assuming a literal immunity to those spells, you've still got about 164 levels of lolz to build up your character before it is even supposed to be an encounter for your dude. Since epic spellcasting is an autowin in and of itself, we'll exclude it. Take enough caster levels to have enough persisted buffs to survive and ubercharge the heck out of it, or hulking hurler. Done and done.


As a DM, I would have to find a way to see how that translates into damage, so I would rule that it behaves like the Cometstrike spell. It's not perfect, so it would need more alterations.There are rules for taking damage from objects by weight...

[Veyr]

Whats Cometstrike do?
I thought that was just the Cold-damage version of Meteor Swarm?

[Shadowknight12]

Guys, remember that 'Immunity to Magic' comes in two flavors. The lesser kind, found on most golems, is the Infinite SR flavor. Some of the Epic Golems have Magical Immunity, which is written differently and doesn't have the Spell Resistance clause...and since it was never updated in the 3.5 transition, its wording would stand by RAW.

That just means we have to work to overcome the challenge though.:smallbiggrin:

The wording is very unclear, true. It honestly wouldn't be too much of a jump (invoking RAMS here) and saying "it works like standard magical immunity, only... it also works on supernatural abilities."

Wait. That still makes no sense. Supernatural abilities don't allow SR.

This is annoying. :smallannoyed:


Whats Cometstrike do?

It's a 9th level spell from Frostburn that drops 1 to 3 comets on up to three objects or creatures. SR: No, Save: Ref partial. 3d6 bludgeoning damage + 1 round of stun, +10d4 cold damage. Successful save negates the bludgeoning damage and the stun. That is per comet. Three comets and three failed saves would deal 9d6 bludgeoning damage, 30d4 cold damage and would stun someone for 3 rounds. The "balancing" factor is that you have to wait one round between comets.

EDIT:


I thought that was just the Cold-damage version of Meteor Swarm?

Meteor Swarm is SR: Yes.

[Sims]

The wording is very unclear, true. It honestly wouldn't be too much of a jump (invoking RAMS here) and saying "it works like standard magical immunity, only... it also works on supernatural abilities."

Wait. That still makes no sense. Supernatural abilities don't allow SR.

This is annoying. :smallannoyed:



It's a 9th level spell from Frostburn that drops 1 to 3 comets on up to three objects or creatures. SR: No, Save: Ref partial. 3d6 bludgeoning damage + 1 round of stun, +10d4 cold damage. Successful save negates the bludgeoning damage and the stun. That is per comet. Three comets and three failed saves would deal 9d6 bludgeoning damage, 30d4 cold damage and would stun someone for 3 rounds. The "balancing" factor is that you have to wait one round between comets.

but its got high AC, DR, and Regeneration 85 LMFAO! XD

[Shadowknight12]

but its got high AC, DR, and Regeneration 85 LMFAO! XD

AC and DR are of no importance (since there's no attack roll involved). Regeneration would be an issue, yes, but we also have to take into consideration the fact that the ludicrous amount of dirt Tvtyrant created would vastly exceed the damage output of a Cometstrike spell. Like Kylarra mentioned, there are rules for that. I was simply stating what I would use as a base to determine how to simulate the effect Tvtyrant wanted to achieve.

[kardar233]

Answer to any question of the "How to Kill" variety.

Throw the Sun at it. For Massive Damage.

[Hazzardevil]

What you lot don't seem to realise is that a Level 6 charecter can be immune to the divine damage of that thing.
Heres a hint, renounce the gods with the planar handbook.

[Shadowknight12]

What you lot don't seem to realise is that a Level 6 charecter can be immune to the divine damage of that thing.
Heres a hint, renounce the gods with the planar handbook.

I knew I'd seen that somewhere. The build I'm half-remembering must have taken Athar levels somewhere.

[Delusion]

I feel dirty for saying this but..

Isn't Pun-pun LE?

[Tvtyrant]

As a DM, I would have to find a way to see how that translates into damage, so I would rule that it behaves like the Cometstrike spell. It's not perfect, so it would need more alterations.

I showed that on the first post I mentioned it! It uses the falling object damage! 1d6 per 200 pounds.

[Divide by Zero]

I feel dirty for saying this but..

Isn't Pun-pun LE?

Calling Pazuzu doesn't force an alignment change the first time, so it's still technically LG. The original method didn't have any specific alignment at all, so I suppose it could be evil.

[faceroll]

I can do it with a level 15 character if you can find me a spell, ability, or power that can do it at least one point of damage from the ethereal plane



With 100+ levels to work with, this is quite doable. I would pick up manifester levels and use chained synchronicities to finish it. Maybe use font of power to get unlimited power points, then do everything you need to do in one turn, since you have non-finite power points and can turn those all into actions. Given enough "time", you could plink it down with something, I am quite certain.

Yeah, I can do this with a psion 5/metamind10. Just need a power that does at least 1 point of damage to it. Then I use 808,500 chained synchronicities (for free).

[edit]
Actually, chaining won't work. Twinning will, but I got problems with psionic foci. Can refocus with hustle, but then I am just manifesting a twinned power, getting to std actions, turning one into another set of twinned actions, and using the other to manifest hustle. No action accumulation.

Ohh, wait, if I share hustle with my psicrystal (who happens to have psionic meditation) and have that contain a focus (psicrystal containment), then I get a net action advantage.


It's the angelic equivalent of the Lightning Warrior familiar.

It's the only thing that pierces superior invisibility, so that's a plus.


Nobody gonna comment on my "drop dirt on it" comment? :(

The save DC to avoid a falling object is like 15. I'd be generous and set the DC to whatever your save DCs are for 9th level spells.

Doubt it'd do much.

[Shadowknight12]

I showed that on the first post I mentioned it! It uses the falling object damage! 1d6 per 200 pounds.

Ahhh, I must have missed it. Still, a DM has to rule, among other things, whether it gets a Reflex save versus damage, and whether or not this wonky Immunity To Magic rule affects "things created with magic."

Also, the limit on the damage the "object" is capable of inflicting is 20d6, so what you would have to say is word the wish so that the objects fall in 200 pound segments, one after the other. And then you'd have to calculate how many per round can fall (because you can't tell me that you can drop thousands of pounds in 200-pound increments in less than six seconds), since he has Regeneration. Then you'd have to calculate if you're really damaging him after regeneration kicks in (on average? No).

EDIT:


The save DC to avoid a falling object is like 15. I'd be generous and set the DC to whatever your save DCs are for 9th level spells.

Doubt it'd do much.

Where is this save? The SRD says no such thing.

[Tvtyrant]

Ahhh, I must have missed it. Still, a DM has to rule, among other things, whether it gets a Reflex save versus damage, and whether or not this wonky Immunity To Magic rule affects "things created with magic."

Also, the limit on the damage the "object" is capable of inflicting is 20d6, so what you would have to say is word the wish so that the objects fall in 200 pound segments, one after the other. And then you'd have to calculate how many per round can fall (because you can't tell me that you can drop thousands of pounds in 200-pound increments in less than six seconds), since he has Regeneration. Then you'd have to calculate if you're really damaging him after regeneration kicks in (on average? No).

EDIT:



Where is this save? The SRD says no such thing.

I think your reading that wrong mate; its 20d6 maximum from height, weight is uncapped.

[faceroll]

Where is this save? The SRD says no such thing.

Heroes of Battle.

[Shadowknight12]

I think your reading that wrong mate; its 20d6 maximum from height, weight is uncapped.

Yes, which means that unless you want your Wish spell to be ineffective, you WILL divide it into smaller chunks, or else, by the rules, your 2000000 pounds of dirt do 20d6 damage.


Heroes of Battle.

Dubious. It could be referring exclusively to an aerial bombardment situation. Still, if we give it a DC that can be altered as though it was a spell's, there's a lot of cheese written out there to make it impossible to pass on anything other than a natural 20.

[faceroll]

It's killable with a 15th level character without resorting to wish abuse. I mean, "dirt" isn't really an item. If you're going to be abusing Wish do it right, and use a SLA wish to wish for a +10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 sword. Wish has no limit on the magic items it can make, just that you must supply the xp. Wish as an SLA has no xp cost.

Anyone know of a way for a creature to attack from ethereal to material?

[faceroll]

It's killable with a 15th level character without resorting to wish abuse. I mean, "dirt" isn't really an item. If you're going to be abusing Wish do it right, and use a SLA wish to wish for a +10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 sword. Wish has no limit on the magic items it can make, just that you must supply the xp. Wish as an SLA has no xp cost.

Anyone know of a way for a creature to attack from ethereal to material?

[Tvtyrant]

Yes, which means that unless you want your Wish spell to be ineffective, you WILL divide it into smaller chunks, or else, by the rules, your 2000000 pounds of dirt do 20d6 samage.

No, the 2,000,000 pounds of dirt do 10,000d6 +20d6. The 20d6 is the damage from the height, the 10,000d6 is from the weight.

[Shadowknight12]

It's killable with a 15th level character without resorting to wish abuse. I mean, "dirt" isn't really an item. If you're going to be abusing Wish do it right, and use a SLA wish to wish for a +10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 sword. Wish has no limit on the magic items it can make, just that you must supply the xp. Wish as an SLA has no xp cost.

Anyone know of a way for a creature to attack from ethereal to material?

Unfortunately, I checked and Shapechange doesn't allow for SLAs to be acquired.

The answer is Force effects. Or Ghost Touch equipment.

EDIT:


No, the 2,000,000 pounds of dirt do 10,000d6 +20d6. The 20d6 is the damage from the height, the 10,000d6 is from the weight.

I went and re-read everything carefully and it seems you're right. It does work like that. Still, if he gets a DC 15 Reflex to avoid it, it's useless.

[faceroll]

Unfortunately, I checked and Shapechange doesn't allow for SLAs to be acquired.

Gate, broski.


The answer is Force effects. Or Ghost Touch equipment.

Nope, read about etherealness. Neither of those things work.

[Shadowknight12]

Gate, broski.



Nope, read about etherealness. Neither of those things work.

/facepalm. Of course.

The Transdimensional Spell metamagic feat, then.


You can cast spells that affect targets lurking in coexistent planes and extradimensional spaces whose entrances fall within the spell’s area.

The Material Plane is coexistent with the Ethereal Plane, so by RAW, you should be able to affect all three planes (plus extradimensional spaces) no matter where you are (so long as you are in any of them, meaning that you could use that feat to affect creatures on the Material Plane from the Shadow Plane or from inside a Rope Trick spell).

[faceroll]

The Transdimensional Spell metamagic feat, then.

The Material Plane is coexistent with the Ethereal Plane, so by RAW, you should be able to affect all three planes (plus extradimensional spaces) no matter where you are.

Well, except outer planes. Now the only problem is getting an unlimited amount of a spell you can apply that to and fitting it onto a manifester5/metamind10 chassis.

[Shadowknight12]

Well, except outer planes. Now the only problem is getting an unlimited amount of a spell you can apply that to and fitting it onto a manifester5/metamind10 chassis.

Moot point, since you can't become Ethereal on the outer planes.

Unlimited amount of a spell? That sounds like a wand and a feat that lets you apply metamagic feats you know to spells cast from a wand.

[faceroll]

Moot point, since you can't become Ethereal on the outer planes.

Unlimited amount of a spell? That sounds like a wand and a feat that lets you apply metamagic feats you know to spells cast from a wand.

That's only going to be 25 castings from a wand. We're probably going to be relying on natural 20s that only do 1 point of damage. We need over 800,000 of those nat 20s. Wands just aren't practical.

As for figuring out this thing's weaknesses, you've engaged it like 100,000 times already, but always used a twinned synchronicity walk ending with readying a forced dream. Then he does something nasty, you rewind, use a different technique, rewind, etc. until you are satisfied with results.

[edit]
I am sure there's something that lets us use a wand without burning charges for a short while. And an item that lets us use metamagic on a wand (metamagic wand grips? did I imagine those?). Metamagic feats don't even require spellcasting, so all we need to do is get the ability to take 10 on our UMD checks. I guess we need an exemplar level in there.

Goddamn this is getting goddamned dirty. I'll just wish for my +googleplex equipment, kthx.

[Shadowknight12]

That's only going to be 25 castings from a wand. We're probably going to be relying on natural 20s that only do 1 point of damage. We need over 800,000 of those nat 20s. Wands just aren't practical.

As for figuring out this thing's weaknesses, you've engaged it like 100,000 times already, but always used a twinned synchronicity walk ending with readying a forced dream. Then he does something nasty, you rewind, use a different technique, rewind, etc. until you are satisfied with results.

You could always use a Staff instead. Speaking of which. Sphere of Annihilation, anyone?

Good call on the twinned synchronicity idea. Or just use a Contingency that Greater Teleports or Plane Shifts you away. The Contingency takes effect before whatever triggered it, after all.


I am sure there's something that lets us use a wand without burning charges for a short while. And an item that lets us use metamagic on a wand (metamagic wand grips? did I imagine those?). Metamagic feats don't even require spellcasting, so all we need to do is get the ability to take 10 on our UMD checks. I guess we need an exemplar level in there.

Goddamn this is getting goddamned dirty. I'll just wish for my +googleplex equipment, kthx.

I vaguely recall something from Eberron to that effect. I would have to go book-hunting, though. Take 10 on UMD checks? Exemplar could work. I vaguely recall a feat that lets you take 10 on a single skill of your choice, but I might be imagining it.

Meh, I still think that you can just Shapechange into a Solar and Miracle him away.

[Derjuin]

Hmm...is this thing immune to force damage?

0. Be level 50 and evil
1. Shapechange into a Dire Tortoise (guaranteed surprise round)
2. Un-shapechange (free action) to your normal (properly astral projected/deathwarded/soulfire armored/whatever) self
3. Major Creation -> Anti-Osmium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2013195&postcount=89)
4. Boom? I assume 685,807,615,638,766,519 nonmagical force damage can blow through its DR and Regeneration with relative ease...but I haven't read its entry myself, so I might be missing something.

[Ravens_cry]

I went and re-read everything carefully and it seems you're right. It does work like that. Still, if he gets a DC 15 Reflex to avoid it, it's useless.
Well, I find this a bit munchkinry, but the rules say you automatically fail on a natural one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm). Get 40 people capable of dropping said weights, and on average, he should fail at least once, and you can always try again. Am I evil? Yes. But I am the evil you need to kill this idiotic over bloated mass of a source Brownian motion connected to a keyboard.

[Shadowknight12]

Well, I find this a bit munchkinry, but the rules say you automatically fail on a natural one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm). Get 40 people capable of dropping said weights, and on average, he should fail at least once, and you can always try again. Am I evil? Yes. But I am the evil you need to kill this idiotic over bloated mass of a source Brownian motion connected to a keyboard.

Hm. Okay, people, that could actually work. We'd need a few days to prepare and Gate in the 39 solars, but it can happen. Alternatively, we can cut down the prep time with metamagic abuse to twin-cast it, repeat it, etc.

[Heliomance]

Hmm...is this thing immune to force damage?

0. Be level 50 and evil
1. Shapechange into a Dire Tortoise (guaranteed surprise round)
2. Un-shapechange (free action) to your normal (properly astral projected/deathwarded/soulfire armored/whatever) self
3. Major Creation -> Anti-Osmium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2013195&postcount=89)
4. Boom? I assume 685,807,615,638,766,519 nonmagical force damage can blow through its DR and Regeneration with relative ease...but I haven't read its entry myself, so I might be missing something.

Find me a place in the rules where it says anti-osmium exists. Having found that, find me where it stats how much damage it does.

That particular TO exercise doesn't work. It's like the commoner railgun, it relies on picking and choosing which bits of the rules and which bits of real-world physics you're going to use.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I have to say, while it is fun trying to kill these silly things from the Immortal's Handbook, it really isn't well thought out in way of execution. I mean, the people that wrote it math'd it pretty hard, but that doesn't mean it translates well into a game.

To be fair, I don't think epic translates well into a game, either, but I'm at least willing to run up to level 30 using the epic destiny rules and some serious limitations on epic spells (assuming I even bother keeping the feat in, in case I run it). As the Immortal's Handbook sadly shows all too well, if you aren't a caster, the only thing epic does for you is "bigger numbers!"

That being said, I still just can't get past the Immortal's Handbook not because it is poorly done crunch wise, but because of how heavy handed it is with its fluff on cosmic beings.:smallsigh:

EDIT:

Find me a place in the rules where it says anti-osmium exists. Having found that, find me where it stats how much damage it does.

That particular TO exercise doesn't work. It's like the commoner railgun, it relies on picking and choosing which bits of the rules and which bits of real-world physics you're going to use.

To be fair, the Immortals Handbook does assume you use real world physics, going so far as to give creatures "effective size categories" (their words, not mine) because of how dense they are because of how much more strength they have compared to an average person. If that's going to be a rule, everything in that book should eat an anti-osmium bomb.:smallamused:

[Eldan]

True, if Neutronium can exist, so can antimatter.
Personally, my cosmos only has four kinds of atoms. Fire/Water/Air/Earth. Quintessence Atoms are said to exist, but have never been found.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

True, if Neutronium can exist, so can antimatter.
Personally, my cosmos only has four kinds of atoms. Fire/Water/Air/Earth. Quintessence Atoms are said to exist, but have never been found.

The worst offense has got to be the non-adamantine star metal they made. They rave on how super awesome it is and how it is basically super dense iron. The problem comes about, as someone who actually knows about the reactions in a star that's not a surprise: the highest end of the chemical chain you get save for stuff generated in the super nova is iron, so a dying dwarf star would just give you a bunch of iron with TONS of impurities in it.:smallsigh:

[Veyr]

Anyone know of a way for a creature to attack from ethereal to material?
Transdimensional Spell metamagic feat, uhm... damn, I thought Chupoclops gave that but he doesn't.

[Eldariel]

Wait, are we seriously wondering if in a system where you can become infinitely powerful on level 1, you could kill a Big Numbers before 20? I...does not comprehend.

Ok, first, damage is irrelevant. You can become immune to damage in a dozen ways. Second, it's a chunk of big numbers. You throw the moon at it or something. No, you can't use Transdimensional Spell from Ethereal Plane; it's specifically only a one-way ticket. There's nothing you can do from the Ethereal Plane but I don't frankly see why you'd need to (technically, an argument could be made for a manipulatable force object such as a Riverine Weapon on the Material Plane being wieldable from the Ethereal Plane but eh...). This is all so trivial...

[Zale]

It has an antimagic field that does not impede it's own magic out to 7480 ft.

:smallconfused:

Also, It can just follow you to the Ethereal Plane. Etherealness at will.

Also..

" Anyone within a 500 ft. radius of the seraphim is instantly obliterated unless they currently have 88 Hit Dice or more. No saving throw. "

[Eldan]

The solution for that is, as said, either being on a different plane or just being a few miles away. Both are fairly trivial for a mage.

[druid91]

Got a celestial problem?

Those solars got you down?

Maybe even seen a Seraphim in your pantry?

Call Emerald legion exterminators! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587)

For the price of 20 sacrificial brains you can have our army of extremely professional trolls remove any problems you might have.:smalltongue:

[Zale]

That is, assuming, the Seraphim doesn't just use it's own clerical magic to follow you to that plane.

Or just use Miracle at will to make you drop dead.

[Eldariel]

It has an antimagic field that does not impede it's own magic out to 7480 ft.

Be an Initiate: AMFs R Us.


" Anyone within a 500 ft. radius of the seraphim is instantly obliterated unless they currently have 88 Hit Dice or more. No saving throw. "

Make an AMF of your own; this ability is suppressed within the Aura as a supernatural ability.


Or just be Punpun. He can be any alignment he wants to. He is, after all, Punpun. Kinda cheap answer but if you really want a "Level 1 legal PC capable of doing X", it's already there.

[Cruiser1]

3. Contingency: Wish allows you to make an infinite amount of dirt to drop on it, since dirt has no cost.You can't put any spell over 6th level into Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm), so 9th level spells like Wish aren't allowed.

[ericgrau]

Or you find out all about the monster thanks to the myriad divinations at your disposal.
It will save.

[Veyr]

It doesn't get to.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

You can't put any spell over 6th level into Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm), so 9th level spells like Wish aren't allowed.

Contingency is also a feat for those wizards smart enough to ban evocation.

[ericgrau]

Anything that might reveal info to you is aura-dead or on its side. Even its minions are too high level. Its significant enemies don't have time for you. Other methods require other things like proximity which is the original problem. I smell an obscure splatbook spell coming on now.

[Stompy]

People are always going around saying how the forces of evil are stronger and what not, but I think just sticking one Seraph in the Abyss would end all their problems.

To answer the OP question:

-Stand 501 or more feet away from it. (A microphone is encouraged.)
-Polymorph into that one thing that always wins initative.
-Find some fun way to speak in that form.
-"Dear Seraph, can you please go away?" (Full-round)
-Roll a diplomacy check.
-Hit a DC 60 and that hostile Seraph becomes friendly to you (includes the -10 penalty for diplomacy ), thus not wanting to blow up your brains (and body, soul, ego, what have you) with its giant numbers.

This should be possible with a epic (but not too epic) bard. If the aura is a concern, use a 89 HD bard.

(Also: You can't make it fanatic to you because that is treated as a mind-affecting enchantment.)

[Veyr]

Contingency is also a feat for those wizards smart enough to ban evocation.
Greater Shadow Evocation begs to differ.

[Sims]

To answer the OP question:

-Stand 501 or more feet away from it. (A microphone is encouraged.)
-Polymorph into that one thing that always wins initative.
-Find some fun way to speak in that form.
-"Dear Seraph, can you please go away?" (Full-round)
-Roll a diplomacy check.
-Hit a DC 60 and that hostile Seraph becomes friendly to you (includes the -10 penalty for diplomacy ), thus not wanting to blow up your brains (and body, soul, ego, what have you) with its giant numbers.

This should be possible with a epic (but not too epic) bard. If the aura is a concern, use a 89 HD bard.

(Also: You can't make it fanatic to you because that is treated as a mind-affecting enchantment.)

Can't it just use Counter-diplomacy to negate it? Seraphim possess ALL skills MAXED OUT. Which is over 100. Possibly more like over 150.

Plus, as a swift action it can cast some spells. so if it were a Chaotic Good Seraph, it might cut you off mid sentence.

Whats a Bard doing in the Abyss anyway? With a Seraph lol XD it sounds like the beginning to a bad joke.

EDIT: Or it just takes a step closer to you hahahaha

[Worira]

There's no such thing as counter-diplomacy, and neither a swift nor a move action can interrupt another creature's turn.

[Sims]

There's no such thing as counter-diplomacy, and neither a swift nor a move action can interrupt another creature's turn.

Isn't there rules on creatures not willing to listen?

EDIT: And I think it has some kind of Cosmic Initiative bonus, not sure.

How strong are the Demon Lords/Princes/Queens? Because I think it could take them all at once by itself. Demogorgon would litterally bust.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

There aren't any rules for counter-diplomacy simply because diplomacy can't be used against PCs.:smallwink:


Anything that might reveal info to you is aura-dead or on its side. Even its minions are too high level. Its significant enemies don't have time for you. Other methods require other things like proximity which is the original problem. I smell an obscure splatbook spell coming on now.

Or you know, you could just do a core-only Pun-pun ascension. It's slower, but it's core and just as broken if not more so.

[Veyr]

It's a poorly-designed, third-party creature, that still fails to beat most high-power TO builds. It still loses to Pun-Pun, and Pun-Pun can come online at level 1. What is impressive about this creature?

[Sims]

It's a poorly-designed, third-party creature, that still fails to beat most high-power TO builds. It still loses to Pun-Pun, and Pun-Pun can come online at level 1. What is impressive about this creature?

Its got 4 heads! :D

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Its got 4 heads! :D

Pun-pun has NI heads or how ever many best suit IT as IT so chooses.:smalltongue:

[Z3ro]

Or you know, you could just do a core-only Pun-pun ascension. It's slower, but it's core and just as broken if not more so.

Wait, I'm confused; doesn't pun-pun only exist in Forgotten Realms? How would a core only pun-pun happen, short of spell-jammer?

[Tvtyrant]

Soeaking of spelljammer, the actual creature by that name creates seeking spheres of annihilation at will and has over 4,000 HP. The spheres would kill it at a range it cannot cast at.

[The Tygre]

It's a poorly-designed, third-party creature, that still fails to beat most high-power TO builds. It still loses to Pun-Pun, and Pun-Pun can come online at level 1. What is impressive about this creature?

It know Nup-Nup, Pun-Pun's older brother who was born one hour before-hand.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Wait, I'm confused; doesn't pun-pun only exist in Forgotten Realms? How would a core only pun-pun happen, short of spell-jammer?

A while back (which is to say, back before wizards did their massive purge for 4E) some TO guys managed to duplicate Pun-Pun via core and I want to say just normal epic rules. The gist of it involved becoming valid for animal growth/awaken animal to max out HD, then blow epic feats on whatever else have you.

[faceroll]

It has an antimagic field that does not impede it's own magic out to 7480 ft.

:smallconfused:

Also, It can just follow you to the Ethereal Plane. Etherealness at will.

Also..

" Anyone within a 500 ft. radius of the seraphim is instantly obliterated unless they currently have 88 Hit Dice or more. No saving throw. "

Right.
The reason you want to be on the ethereal is to avoid the 88HD obliteration effect. It's not a death effect, so death ward does crap. However, supernatural effects don't extend into the ethereal.

It doesn't matter if it can follow you to the ethereal plane- by using Font of Power and Twinned Synchronicities, I can approach it from anywhere in the multiverse and take a non-finite number of actions on the surprise round.


Wait, I'm confused; doesn't pun-pun only exist in Forgotten Realms? How would a core only pun-pun happen, short of spell-jammer?

Yeah, I thought Pun-Pun required Frostburn's Ice Assassin and Forgotten Realm's Sarrukh to get really broken. Otherwise, you need psionics (not core) to do "pun-pun", and all that was was getting arbitrarily high ability scores. Which, as this thread is demonstrating, is cool, but not the end of the world.

[Veyr]

A while back (which is to say, back before wizards did their massive purge for 4E) some TO guys managed to duplicate Pun-Pun via core and I want to say just normal epic rules. The gist of it involved becoming valid for animal growth/awaken animal to max out HD, then blow epic feats on whatever else have you.
Without Manipulate Form, you have no way of giving yourself arbitrary "I win" abilities, which is the hallmark of Pun-Pun to my mind.

[druid91]

Right.
The reason you want to be on the ethereal is to avoid the 88HD obliteration effect. It's not a death effect, so death ward does crap. However, supernatural effects don't extend into the ethereal.

It doesn't matter if it can follow you to the ethereal plane- by using Font of Power and Twinned Synchronicities, I can approach it from anywhere in the multiverse and take a non-finite number of actions on the surprise round.



Yeah, I thought Pun-Pun required Frostburn's Ice Assassin and Forgotten Realm's Sarrukh to get really broken. Otherwise, you need psionics (not core) to do "pun-pun", and all that was was getting arbitrarily high ability scores. Which, as this thread is demonstrating, is cool, but not the end of the world.

Technically psionics is core. It's in the srd.

[Sims]

So............The Seraph Pwnz all? :O

[Veyr]

No! It doesn't! It's not even particularly impressive! That was the entire point!

Pun-Pun beats it trivially. Numerous other TO builds can beat it with a minor bit of effort.

And I could trivially stat up my own homebrew monster that could beat it. Fallen Seraphim: As Seraphim, except CE and every single number is twice that of the Seraphim. Bam! That wins.

The Immortals Handbook is poorly designed. It's not well-written. This creature doesn't do anything all that interesting, it just has a ton of huge numbers and probably-ill-advised class features. It is third-party and not recognized by Wizards, or most anyone else.

Seriously:

Seraphim: We totally just made this up and gave it whatever features we felt like.

Pun-Pun: I am completely, 100% rules-legal with no houserules or third-party supplements. I can create or destroy Seraphim on a whim.

Your arguments about what a Seraphim would do to the Abyss don't matter because in canon, the Seraphim does not exist.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

So............The Seraph Pwnz all? :O

No. Core only is not a real shake, since you are grabbing a non-core source. That said, doing the "core" Pun-Pun build with access to the epic rules which reaches arbitrary everything in a matter of 1 round due to the Far Realms timelessness and the usual abuses to gain +YES HD and the like, it really boils down to who stayed on the Far Realms to get said +YES HD for longer. Assuming as printed, my money is on the bigger arbitrary - in this case, Pun-pun (lite).

[Jeraa]

Technically psionics is core. It's in the srd.

No it is not. The core rulebooks all say "Core Rulebook" on the front, and are the basic books needed to run the game (PHB, DMG, MM1). Expanded Psionics Handbook is Open Game Content (well, most of it) and that is why it is in the SRD.

Just being in the SRD does not make it a core book.

[The Glyphstone]

Unearthed Arcana is in the SRD too. It's decidedly not core.

[Z3ro]

Technically psionics is core. It's in the srd.

That's not what core is; core's phb, mm, dmg.

Edit: Weak, swordsages.

[Z3ro]

No. Core only is not a real shake, since you are grabbing a non-core source. That said, doing the "core" Pun-Pun build with access to the epic rules which reaches arbitrary everything in a matter of 1 round due to the Far Realms timelessness and the usual abuses to gain +YES HD and the like, it really boils down to who stayed on the Far Realms to get said +YES HD for longer. Assuming as printed, my money is on the bigger arbitrary - in this case, Pun-pun (lite).

So just checking; is Core pun-pun just epic spell abuse? Or is it something more specific?

[ThirdEmperor]

I can think of three easy ways to solve any Seraphim related problem:

1. Throw dice at the DM for sending something so poorly written after you, take away his copy of the Immortal's Handbook and burn it.

2. Be over level 100, like anyone facing a Seraphim is supposed to be.

3. Pun-pun.

BONUS SOLUTION: 4. Use Shapechange cheese to transform your entire party into Seraphims, or something even stronger

[Thrice Dead Cat]

So just checking; is Core pun-pun just epic spell abuse? Or is it something more specific?

Yes and no. Some versions of Pun-Pun may have it eventually, but the real seller is stealing abilities via Sarrukh, which is decidedly noncore. However, when discussing epic, it is fair to bring in the epic rules, meaning epic spellcaster will probably be used to ad hoc having the Manipulate Form ability.

[mootoall]

Seriously, some people think that just because it has the work "Handbook" in it it can be used with impunity ... Anyway, back to the original question, as to what it can do to the lower planes- Abyss: Plane of infinite size with infinite creatures that has been speculated to be alive itself, and extremely dangerous. Piss that off enough, you won't be happy. Baator: Asmodeus. Dicefreaks Asmodeus. Sigil: Just for funsies, the good (neutral?) Lady.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Seriously, some people think that just because it has the work "Handbook" in it it can be used with impunity ... Anyway, back to the original question, as to what it can do to the lower planes- Abyss: Plane of infinite size with infinite creatures that has been speculated to be alive itself, and extremely dangerous. Piss that off enough, you won't be happy. Baator: Asmodeus. Dicefreaks Asmodeus. Sigil: Just for funsies, the good (neutral?) Lady.

Keep your head down! Don't even dare speak of the Lady or any of her possible affiliations. You wanna get flayed alive over here?!:smalleek:

[Sims]

Seriously, some people think that just because it has the work "Handbook" in it it can be used with impunity ... Anyway, back to the original question, as to what it can do to the lower planes- Abyss: Plane of infinite size with infinite creatures that has been speculated to be alive itself, and extremely dangerous. Piss that off enough, you won't be happy. Baator: Asmodeus. Dicefreaks Asmodeus. Sigil: Just for funsies, the good (neutral?) Lady.

Asmodeous would die. I read his stats XD.Funny thing is St. Micheal is a Seraphim.

In any case, I see nothing other than the Abyss itself, that can kill a Seraph. And maybe some high level 200's with cheese. Even then.

If I'm playing this creature against you, you better be good! Mwoo hahahahahaha!!!! *rubs hands evilly despite playing a creature that supposed to be good*

[Veyr]

Asmodeous would die. I read his stats XD.Funny thing is St. Micheal is a Seraphim.

In any case, I see nothing other than the Abyss itself, that can kill a Seraph. And maybe some high level 200's with cheese. Even then.

If I'm playing this creature against you, you better be good! Mwoo hahahahahaha!!!! *rubs hands evilly despite playing a creature that supposed to be good*
Err... what? No, Asmodeus has not been statted. Various avatars of Asmodeus have. Asmodeus literally controls Baator, that is, the plane itself. This thing would die a slow, hideously-painful death.

Also, more importantly, if you get to use random third-party crap that doesn't make sense, so do we. See my Fallen Seraphim. Call it LE and fanatically loyal to Asmodeus.

[The Tygre]

No! It doesn't! It's not even particularly impressive! That was the entire point!

Pun-Pun beats it trivially. Numerous other TO builds can beat it with a minor bit of effort.

And I could trivially stat up my own homebrew monster that could beat it. Fallen Seraphim: As Seraphim, except CE and every single number is twice that of the Seraphim. Bam! That wins.

The Immortals Handbook is poorly designed. It's not well-written. This creature doesn't do anything all that interesting, it just has a ton of huge numbers and probably-ill-advised class features. It is third-party and not recognized by Wizards, or most anyone else.

Seriously:

...

Pun-Pun: I am completely, 100% rules-legal with no houserules or third-party supplements. I can create or destroy Seraphim on a whim.

Your arguments about what a Seraphim would do to the Abyss don't matter because in canon, the Seraphim does not exist.

Yes! YES! Canon is the one true god! Stop having fun with anything third party! Burn it all! YOU CAN ONLY HAVE FUN WITH WHAT WE TELL YOU! DMs and Players can't customize games, it all has to be canon! Praise canon! Ia! Ia!

I ****ing hate optimization parties...


Seraphim: We totally just made this up...

... Seraphim are from real-world mythology. Christ on an unholy ass, I cannot believe how many people don't know basic angelology. Seraphim are the highest choir of angels, essentially unto the Divine Mystery itself. They have forms the same way nuclear bomb explosions have a defined shape, and serve as the head of the armies of Heaven. Even in the Old Testament, they are described as having auras of divine power and light so potent that they cover their own faces before mortals, lest the world be incinerated. Lucifer was a Seraphim, as are Michael and Gabriel.

[Sims]

Err... what? No, Asmodeus has not been statted. Various avatars of Asmodeus have. Asmodeus literally controls Baator, that is, the plane itself. This thing would die a slow, hideously-painful death.

From what I read (in a thread I made before) someone posted a link to his stats. His HD was like 72. I'll repost the link later. It was in my old "Whos strongest Demon Lord" thread a while back.

[TroubleBrewing]

In any case, I see nothing other than the Abyss itself, that can kill a Seraph. And maybe some high level 200's with cheese. Even then.


Not even the previous four pages of the thread? There are plenty of examples given for things that can take out a Seraph, and most of them were pre-20.

I do find it funny that for a creature with a supposed CR of 100+, only a handful of people bothered to bring up anything ECL 20+.

The Seraph, along with the rest of the Immortals Handbook, is a badly-written joke.

[Z3ro]

Yes and no. Some versions of Pun-Pun may have it eventually, but the real seller is stealing abilities via Sarrukh, which is decidedly noncore. However, when discussing epic, it is fair to bring in the epic rules, meaning epic spellcaster will probably be used to ad hoc having the Manipulate Form ability.

I'm not trying to be an idiot, but I thought the whole point of pun-pun was manipulate form. Isn't anything else just a strong character? I mean, yeah, you can make some ridiculous things with epic spell shenanigans, but then it's not really pun-pun, right?

[Sims]

Err... what? No, Asmodeus has not been statted. Various avatars of Asmodeus have. Asmodeus literally controls Baator, that is, the plane itself. This thing would die a slow, hideously-painful death.

Also, more importantly, if you get to use random third-party crap that doesn't make sense, so do we. See my Fallen Seraphim. Call it LE and fanatically loyal to Asmodeus.

LOL why are you getting so worked up?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Not even the previous four pages of the thread? There are plenty of examples given for things that can take out a Seraph, and most of them were pre-20.

I do find it funny that for a creature with a supposed CR of 100+, only a handful of people bothered to bring up anything ECL 20+.

The Seraph, along with the rest of the Immortals Handbook, is a badly-written joke.

The worst of it is the Neutronium Golem. Nearly 10,000 CR and can be taken out by a wizard from over 2.5k miles away (assuming the wizard wants to live, at least!:smallbiggrin:). Really, by the time you hit epic levels, either every party member has nearly full casting, no one has it, or you're playing Nobilis or Exalted instead!:smallsigh:

[TroubleBrewing]

The worst of it is the Neutronium Golem. Nearly 10,000 CR and can be taken out by a wizard from over 2.5k miles away (assuming the wizard wants to live, at least!:smallbiggrin:). Really, by the time you hit epic levels, either every party member has nearly full casting, no one has it, or you're playing Nobilis or Exalted instead!:smallsigh:

I think Sims made a thread talking about this... thing before.

I responded with a "Sure, when it dies it explodes killing everything nearby, but if a pre-20 Wizard can take it out, I'm pretty sure he can have his pre-20 Cleric friend cast True Res."

Death isn't failure in high-level D&D.

[The Tygre]

The Seraph, along with the rest of the Immortals Handbook, is a badly-written joke.

Only when it's played stupidly. A good DM, with experience in Epic, knows how to make the best out of Epic material. Like using simple logic and storytelling, for instance.


The worst of it is the Neutronium Golem. Nearly 10,000 CR and can be taken out by a wizard from over 2.5k miles away (assuming the wizard wants to live, at least!:smallbiggrin:). Really, by the time you hit epic levels, either every party member has nearly full casting, no one has it, or you're playing Nobilis or Exalted instead!:smallsigh:

*hiss* Jesus, I hate that. 'Ooh, if you want to play Epic, why not play Exalted instead?' Because either system is going to be like hammering nails through my eyeballs. And I'm vastly more fond of d20. Sorry, that wasn't directed at you, I just needed to get that off my chest. And Nobilis doesn't exactly come up like spring daisies, either.

[TroubleBrewing]

Only when it's played stupidly. A good DM, with experience in Epic, knows how to make the best out of Epic material. Like using simple logic and storytelling, for instance.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Are you implying that everyone who dislikes the idea of playing ECL 100+ D&D doesn't know how to use logic and storytelling?

It's fairly clear that the core mechanic of D&D falls apart after about ECL 20. Heck, it's even arguable that it fails as soon as 9th level spells come online.

ECL 100+? That's not even a conversation. So many things (logic included) fail at that high level.

[Veyr]

Yes! YES! Canon is the one true god! Stop having fun with anything third party! Burn it all! YOU CAN ONLY HAVE FUN WITH WHAT WE TELL YOU! DMs and Players can't customize games, it all has to be canon! Praise canon! Ia! Ia!

I ****ing hate optimization parties...
The point is that this creature is dumb. It's completely arbitrary, it's not a part of the actual game, and plenty of things that are can beat it.


... Seraphim are from real-world mythology. Christ on an unholy ass, I cannot believe how many people don't know basic angelology. Seraphim are the highest choir of angels, essentially unto the Divine Mystery itself. They have forms the same way nuclear bomb explosions have a defined shape, and serve as the head of the armies of Heaven. Even in the Old Testament, they are described as having auras of divine power and light so potent that they cover their own faces before mortals, lest the world be incinerated. Lucifer was a Seraphim, as are Michael and Gabriel.
Oh, really? Please cite the chapter and verse where the Bible gives the Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 statistics for seraphim.

I'm very well aware of the source of the name, thanks. Doesn't make their creature any less stupid.


LOL why are you getting so worked up?
I'd kindly request you quote me accurately when quoting me. I neither bolded nor reddened the text that you have.

[Tvtyrant]

Hey, lets remember that we are all friends(for a given value of friendship) here. Differing opinions does not a need for aggression make.

[tonberrian]

Wait, it's not immune to death effects? And the Antimagic Field effect doesn't effect "their" magic for everyone in the aura? What does the Antimagic effect even do?

Edit: And what counts as "epic magic"? Do epic spells count? What about spells heightened above level 9?

[The Tygre]

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Are you implying that everyone who dislikes the idea of playing ECL 100+ D&D doesn't know how to use logic and storytelling?

It's fairly clear that the core mechanic of D&D falls apart after about ECL 20. Heck, it's even arguable that it fails as soon as 9th level spells come online.

ECL 100+? That's not even a conversation. So many things (logic included) fail at that high level.

No, no. What I'm saying is... Hrm, how do I put this. Epic has a feel, a flavor to it, if you will. It's a certain...


So many things (logic included) fail at that high level.

This. Insanity. It's a certain insanity. I view Epic much the same way I view Grimdark. Why on Earth would you ever play it seriously? Why would you ever go into win against a Neutronium Golem or a Seraphim? Where's the -fun- in that? Epic needs to revel in it's own insanity. It needs to dance on the edges of Godhood and Apocalypse at least once an encounter. Can a wizard kill a Seraphim? Yes, but why would he? Where's the sport, the story? It's a wasted opportunity. It should be like dueling, with an unspoken contract between DM and player. Let's see what happens, what fun and mischief can spring up.

You can magically one hit a seraph... or you can battle in the space between realities, using suns as ammunition and planets as spell components while the divine fire of creation rains down in mile wide curtains of purity and energized positive energy. One is realistic, but uninteresting. The other makes for good times. The battle stops when the fun does, or maybe a minute before. Just to keep them guessing.

As for logic... Well that's easy. Do you really think a cosmic entity two steps away from overdivinity doesn't see you coming while you're just a twinkling in dear old dad's eye, at least?

[Sims]

Hey, lets remember that we are all friends(for a given value of friendship) here. Differing opinions does not a need for aggression make.

QFT. Alot of people need to get this mind set in general discussion. This thread has already taken a bad turn. >_>

[TroubleBrewing]

*Snip*



All of that is my point. You are welcome to play the game the way you like, in a way which frankly sounds pretty awesome, but that's not the issue here.

The issue is that the OP asked a question, which was "Can anything Evil take on a Seraph?"

We answered "Yes, because the Seraph is silly."

And it is. The entire IH is silly. For some, it might be silly fun. For the rest of us, it's silly awful. Silly unplayable.

[Sims]

All of that is my point. You are welcome to play the game the way you like, in a way which frankly sounds pretty awesome, but that's not the issue here.

The issue is that the OP asked a question, which was "Can anything Evil take on a Seraph?"

We answered "Yes, because the Seraph is silly."

And it is. The entire IH is silly. For some, it might be silly fun. For the rest of us, it's silly awful. Silly unplayable.

Wow, thats not a good reason at all! XD

[The Tygre]

The point is that this creature is dumb. It's completely arbitrary, it's not a part of the actual game, and plenty of things that are can beat it.

According to you it is. Personally, I like the Seraphim, and the whole Immortal's rules-set for that matter. Just because the product of some crafty-hacking can kill it doesn't invalidate it.

And seriously, are you still railing that 'canon' is all there is to D&D? In case you haven't noticed, canon is broken. It's flawed. Crippled. It can barely stand up on its own legs. Pun-Pun's proof of that right there. And I say that as someone who freakin' loves d20.


Oh, really? Please cite the chapter and verse where the Bible gives the Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 statistics for seraphim.

I'm very well aware of the source of the name, thanks. Doesn't make their creature any less stupid.

Book of Gygax, duh. One of the Apocrypha, I think. Right between the scriptures of Arneson and the Psalms of Cook. It's obscure; I don't blame you for not having have read it.

[Jeraa]

... Seraphim are from real-world mythology. Christ on an unholy ass, I cannot believe how many people don't know basic angelology. Seraphim are the highest choir of angels, essentially unto the Divine Mystery itself. They have forms the same way nuclear bomb explosions have a defined shape, and serve as the head of the armies of Heaven. Even in the Old Testament, they are described as having auras of divine power and light so potent that they cover their own faces before mortals, lest the world be incinerated. Lucifer was a Seraphim, as are Michael and Gabriel.

I'm pretty sure he was saying the stats were just made up, not the seraphim itself.

Now I can't seem to find it again, but I read in some book (it may have been an older edition D&D) that Lucifer possibly ruled Hell before Asmodeus overthrew him. Now if Lucifer was a Seraphim, and Asmodeus defeated him, then Asmodeus is stronger than a Seraphim.

[Sucrose]

QFT. Alot of people need to get this mind set in general discussion. This thread has already taken a bad turn. >_>

Well, you don't seem to be acknowledging the points that others are making. You insist that this thing can 'pwn' everything evil in the game, when a few evil entities, devised purely through character optimization with the official sourcebooks (without even entering Epic, even), have been shown that could trivially trounce the IH Seraphim. The answer to your question is quite simply 'yes.' It's not even a particularly clever monster: it's just a big, stupid pile of numbers.

This is exacerbated by your apparent desire to use the Immortal's Handbook, which is felt by several in this community to be a rather poorly-thought-out third-party book for a section of the game that already is nonsensical enough.

[TroubleBrewing]

Wow, thats not a good reason at all! XD

I was summarizing the thread.

For a serious and well-thought out answer, ask faceroll. He did it in 15 levels.

[Sims]

{Scrubbed}

[The Tygre]

All of that is my point. You are welcome to play the game the way you like, in a way which frankly sounds pretty awesome, but that's not the issue here.

The issue is that the OP asked a question, which was "Can anything Evil take on a Seraph?"

We answered "Yes, because the Seraph is silly."

And it is. The entire IH is silly. For some, it might be silly fun. For the rest of us, it's silly awful. Silly unplayable.

So, if what I gather from you is correct, rather than answer the OP's question, this was yet another opportunity for people to kvetch about optimization and Epic rules... again. Wunderbar.

[TroubleBrewing]

So, if what I gather from you is correct, rather than answer the OP's question, this was yet another opportunity for people to kvetch about optimization and Epic rules... again. Wunderbar.

Well, sure. Kvetching about broken, awful rules is one of the hallowed past-times of D&D.

Most of us waiting to kvetch until after we'd attempted to answer the OP, which, as I said, we did.

[The Tygre]

I'm pretty sure he was saying the stats were just made up, not the seraphim itself.

Now I can't seem to find it again, but I read in some book (it may have been an older edition D&D) that Lucifer possibly ruled Hell before Asmodeus overthrew him. Now if Lucifer was a Seraphim, and Asmodeus defeated him, then Asmodeus is stronger than a Seraphim.

I was saying that -mythically-, Lucifer was Seraphim, depending on which angelologist you happen to be reading at the time. Also, you're thinking of the Book of Vile Darkness, which briefly mentions Lucifer and Satan in the introduction to Hell in the arch-fiends section.

[TroubleBrewing]

I think we're toeing the line of "Real-world Religion Discussion" here...

[The Tygre]

I think we're toeing the line of "Real-world Religion Discussion" here...

Indeed, let's try to steer from this course of the conversation, if possible.


Well, sure. Kvetching about broken, awful rules is one of the hallowed past-times of D&D.

And my life would be so much more enjoyable if it wasn't...


Most of us waiting to kvetch until after we'd attempted to answer the OP, which, as I said, we did.

I'll grant you that, if nothing else.

[TroubleBrewing]

Challenge accepted.

I like the idea of the IH: High-level play, characters more stupid-powerful than gods, it all sounds great.

I just think the execution has utterly failed. If these ultra-high level things aren't even a threat for characters who are factors of ten lower in terms of ECL, how are they expected to be competitive at the levels they're supposed to be appropriate at?

[Z3ro]

The answer to your question is quite simply 'yes.' It's not even a particularly clever monster: it's just a big, stupid pile of numbers.


Not being sarcastic, serious question, what would people consider to be a well thought out, clever epic monster?

[TroubleBrewing]

Not being sarcastic, serious question, what would people consider to be a well thought out, clever epic monster?

Shhhh....

The Lady can hear you.

[The Tygre]

Shhhh....

The Lady can hear you.

Heh, good one, blood.

As for the execution of Immortality question... Well, really, that's something I've been pondering since the Epic Handbook. I have solutions, but most involve the adage "Be a bastard to them at Epic." Which isn't exactly comforting, to say the least. I've often pondered if maybe one couldn't just restart the whole system over at level 20, but just change the scale. Like a system within a system or something. Cleave now cuts through ten men instead of just one at a time, fly becomes about space, divine magic is channeling one's own inner godhood, etc. Same as one through twenty, just on a bigger scale. But, that's more or less just a pipe-dream, I suppose. Not to mention that crumbles almost instantly when any given character looks back in hindsight...

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Only when it's played stupidly. A good DM, with experience in Epic, knows how to make the best out of Epic material. Like using simple logic and storytelling, for instance.

Eh, people assume epic is full of derp and herp, so when a DM runs it, he must be so, too. A logical fallacy, but I have not personally experienced any game where the PCs had access to epic rules that ended well.

Not saying it can't be done, mind.




*hiss* Jesus, I hate that. 'Ooh, if you want to play Epic, why not play Exalted instead?' Because either system is going to be like hammering nails through my eyeballs. And I'm vastly more fond of d20. Sorry, that wasn't directed at you, I just needed to get that off my chest. And Nobilis doesn't exactly come up like spring daisies, either.

It's my default answer just due to the scope of what epic tries to do. Wizards have REAL ULTIMATE POWER! (tm) from about level 10 onwards, while most fightan' types are stuck into "I hit it again" or "I disarm and hit it again." I know exalted does crazy strong combat "well," but have not played it personally. I also know that Nobilis is an enjoyable (for me, at least), if incredibly odd game dealing with deity-level powers.

Also, my official stance has always been that, if someone tries to bust out some crazy +NI trick like the d2 crusader or even full on Pun-Pun, I'd let them and throw down my copy of the great white book in front of them and tell them to "convert" their character using the starting guidelines.:smallbiggrin: That said, I can understand your hatred to those answers and why you may love the d20 system: I know I love that poor kid with all my heart, despite all of its issues.


No, no. What I'm saying is... Hrm, how do I put this. Epic has a feel, a flavor to it, if you will. It's a certain...

This. Insanity. It's a certain insanity. I view Epic much the same way I view Grimdark. Why on Earth would you ever play it seriously? Why would you ever go into win against a Neutronium Golem or a Seraphim? Where's the -fun- in that? Epic needs to revel in it's own insanity. It needs to dance on the edges of Godhood and Apocalypse at least once an encounter. Can a wizard kill a Seraphim? Yes, but why would he? Where's the sport, the story? It's a wasted opportunity. It should be like dueling, with an unspoken contract between DM and player. Let's see what happens, what fun and mischief can spring up.

You can magically one hit a seraph... or you can battle in the space between realities, using suns as ammunition and planets as spell components while the divine fire of creation rains down in mile wide curtains of purity and energized positive energy. One is realistic, but uninteresting. The other makes for good times. The battle stops when the fun does, or maybe a minute before. Just to keep them guessing.

As for logic... Well that's easy. Do you really think a cosmic entity two steps away from overdivinity doesn't see you coming while you're just a twinkling in dear old dad's eye, at least?

This is an interesting idea. I was never big on Grimdark either in the conventional since or ironically, but I think this could work. It would require a ton of "winging it" as far as spells and components go, which is something 3.5 really dealt with much what with it being so rules heavy, but could be something fun to try.:smallsmile:


So, if what I gather from you is correct, rather than answer the OP's question, this was yet another opportunity for people to kvetch about optimization and Epic rules... again. Wunderbar.

Little from column A, little column B. I was hear to just say "Yes" and just to explain why it was "Yes," even giving the absurd conditions of Core+ELH+IH. It is easily doable against the presented "average" stats.

[Tvtyrant]

Not being sarcastic, serious question, what would people consider to be a well thought out, clever epic monster?

Beholder Mage makes a pretty good one; casts 9 spells a round. Using several of those together and having them cast as Control/Blaster they would be fun; prismatic walls and color sprays oh my!

Basically things that eat up the action economy but don't do broken things with it.

[TroubleBrewing]

As for the execution of Immortality question... *Snip*

At that point, instead of just re-doing an entire system, why not just play one of those games mentioned earlier? I mean, sure it feels like nailing your eyelids to a wall, but it's better than playing a horribly broken version of something you love.

That's like trying to ride the horse that has been your constant companion since childhood while it has three broken legs.

Just put it out of its misery and walk away.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Heh, good one, blood.

As for the execution of Immortality question... Well, really, that's something I've been pondering since the Epic Handbook. I have solutions, but most involve the adage "Be a bastard to them at Epic." Which isn't exactly comforting, to say the least. I've often pondered if maybe one couldn't just restart the whole system over at level 20, but just change the scale. Like a system within a system or something. Cleave now cuts through ten men instead of just one at a time, fly becomes about space, divine magic is channeling one's own inner godhood, etc. Same as one through twenty, just on a bigger scale. But, that's more or less just a pipe-dream, I suppose. Not to mention that crumbles almost instantly when any given character looks back in hindsight...

Tygre, this is gold! I'd extend it out to 30 just because I absolutely adore the 3.5 conversions of the various epic destinies, but still, a solid, solid idea. It helps bring a sense of scale to it, too. Truly epic nonmagical characters aren't strictly mundane anymore. They exude crazy law-breaking (EX) and (SU) abilities instead. Their mere presence is as unto a light in the darkness and similarly flowery descriptions to convey "this guy is born of gods!"

[The Tygre]

At that point, instead of just re-doing an entire system, why not just play one of those games mentioned earlier? I mean, sure it feels like nailing your eyelids to a wall, but it's better than playing a horribly broken version of something you love.

That's like trying to ride the horse that has been your constant companion since childhood while it has three broken legs.

Just put it out of its misery and walk away.

B-but Rainbow d20ash has brought me so much joy! :smalleek:

Of course, if one was really desperate, well... There's always Fourth Edition. Taunting me. Mocking me. Tempting me with its succulent non-Vancian casting and fully integrated Epic syst-

No! Back! Back, succubus! I will not fall to you this day!

[Thrice Dead Cat]

It's doable. Doing it to the pleasure of most people, however, not likely. To the pleasure of some? Hopefully. Doable to the point where it would replace the default epic level rules? I wish, Tygre, I wish. That being said, I'm of the opinion to hardcap epic to 30 HD for classes, give everyone an epic destiny and then go from there. Also no epic spellcasting. Just. No. It is too much work for too little effort.

[averagejoe]

The Mod They Call Me: Alright, this has gone on for long enough.