Dragonwrought Kobold non-spellcaster...

[Shaostoul]

So, I've been searching for quite some time now about DWK and how they work and what they can and can't do and all that fun stuff. I however have only seemed to be able to find only spell-casting DWK builds that are OP.

With me not enjoying being a spellcaster in mind, I've been looking for real nice builds for a DWK that doesn't cast spells or at the very least, that isn't their main focus.

A little background of what I'm looking for is...
-a DWK
-of 7th level
-non-spellcaster
-possibly able to fill the roll of a rogue/ranger (not necessary)
-fast moving and very good maneuverability flying would be a great bonus

The class has to be fun IMO. So just sitting back firing 1 or 2 arrows a round sounds kind of boring.

I wasn't sure where-else to turn, so I'm hoping GITP can assist me.

[Hirax]

You'd make a good assassin, a dragonwrought kobold would plug into this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197409) I made easily.

[LansXero]

While its still an spellcaster, you would also make a good bard / bardbarian. The bonus to mental stats with no physical stat loss would help and you get to be rogue-ish.

Additionally, Dragonfire Adept (gets Invocations, which technically arent spells), and you get lots of options with breath feats and effects and stuff.

[tyckspoon]

That would be because Dragonwrought doesn't really have special benefits for anything other than spellcasters. I mean, it's still neat, but almost all the special dragon stuff is geared to casting. If you can swing the Sovereign Archetypes thing ('s where Loredrake comes from) Wyrm of War is useful, but it's nowhere near as powerful as Loredrake.. I suppose you could try making it a Xorvintaal dragon, under the same logic that somewhat-tenuously qualifies you for the sovereign archetypes, and take advantage of the fact that you get your draconic age categories much, much faster than standard dragons.

[Kylarra]

Factotum is always fun. Possibly binder since you get that +3 cha.


edit: whoops was thinking about venerable shenanigans, but whatever, the above two classes are still good.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Any of the ToB classes can benefit somewhat from the bonus to the mental stats.

IMO Swordsage gets more out of the "free" +3, since they get more use out of them, the Wis bonus is +1 AC/damage (Insightful strike class feature) and Int for moar skill points, which work to keep with the skill set needed to fill the rogue/ranger archetype (I am guessing scout, which does benefit from the increased wis.

[Shaostoul]

The assassin would be cool, but I don't think it'd be applicable to the game. My DM kind of just puts everyone into battle instead of giving some sort of plan of attack.

What about getting the highest attack bonus and AC possible? Ranger at 20 has +20 BAB iirc.

What are the stats of a venerable DWK?

+3 INT, WIS and CHA for venerable?

-4 STR, +2 Dex, -2 CON for normal Kobold?

-4 STR, +2 Dex, -2 WIS for desert Kobold?

I now need to read Dragonfire Adept.

Bard wouldn't be too bad, but the group is still having issues staying close, so AoE spells might not be the best approach.

Barbarian could be interesting.

-edit-

So it seems a DWK cannot be a Xorvintaal dragon due to the pre-req of not being a DWK.

[Kylarra]

I now need to read Dragonfire Adept.
Enjoy (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2).

I'd go with Desert Kobold personally unless you have a pressing need to have that +2 to wis over con.

[LansXero]

The assassin would be cool, but I don't think it'd be applicable to the game. My DM kind of just puts everyone into battle instead of giving some sort of plan of attack.

What about getting the highest attack bonus and AC possible? Ranger at 20 has +20 BAB iirc.

What are the stats of a venerable DWK?

+3 INT, WIS and CHA for venerable?

-4 STR, +2 Dex, -2 CON for normal Kobold?

-4 STR, +2 Dex, -2 WIS for desert Kobold?

I now need to read Dragonfire Adept.

Bard wouldn't be too bad, but the group is still having issues staying close, so AoE spells might not be the best approach.

Barbarian could be interesting.

-edit-

So it seems a DWK cannot be a Xorvintaal dragon due to the pre-req of not being a DWK.

Dragonfire Adept benefits a lot from Constitution, so you should be desert kobold. And melee / combat focused bards have no issues with AoE stuff; just look into boosting Inspire Courage (add Dragonfire Inspiration) and use your venerable Charisma for hit/damage. A couple of levels of Barbarian would help (rage offsets the kobold STR penalty, although you cant cast anymore). And since you are a dragon, I guess having Alter Self from the bard list can only be a good thing :D

[Shaostoul]

Dragonfire is interesting, but I'm not sure if it's quite what I'm looking for.

It's seems like a Venerable Desert DWK is on the right path.

-4 STR, +2 DEX, +3 INT, +1 WIS, +3 CHA

A high AC and high BAB seems to be the most important at the moment.
I do want a high movement and high maneuverability flight and for the movement Monk seems the way to go. I'm not sure about flight.

Ranger, Rogue and Swashbuckler seem to be close.

Assassin would be fairly nice should the campaign take a different approach, but I don't think that's happening.

This is a lot harder deciding than I thought it would be.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Dragonfire is interesting, but I'm not sure if it's quite what I'm looking for.

It's seems like a Venerable Desert DWK is on the right path.

-4 STR, +2 DEX, +3 INT, +1 WIS, +3 CHA

A high AC and high BAB seems to be the most important at the moment.
I do want a high movement and high maneuverability flight and for the movement Monk seems the way to go. I'm not sure about flight.

Ranger, Rogue and Swashbuckler seem to be close.

Assassin would be fairly nice should the campaign take a different approach, but I don't think that's happening.

This is a lot harder deciding than I thought it would be.

I stand by my suggestion about Swordsage, it gets everything you want (save for BAB it has 3/4) and more.

As far as flight goes, there is a Stance (Dance of the flying moth IIRC), items (wings of flying from the DMG/SRD, Phoenix Cloak from the MiC, Feathered Wings graft from the FF [needs to be evil or make will saves every day])

[Greenish]

You could look into Daring Outlaw. It allows Swashbuckler levels to progress Sneak Attack, so you could get 19 BAB and 10d6 SA by level 20.

Dragon type qualifies you for the handy Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike. Wield a rapier (or any weapon) in one hand to get iteratives, make claw attacks with the other hand and bite.

[Shaostoul]

where is daring outlaw?

I'll do some more research on swordsage and see if it's fitting.

Is monk the only class that can improve unarmed/natural attacks drastically?

[Dusk Eclipse]

where is daring outlaw?

I'll do some more research on swordsage and see if it's fitting.

Is monk the only class that can improve unarmed/natural attacks drastically?

Daring Outlaw: Complete Scoundrel

I think there is a Core build that can out-damage a monk...unarmed. And there a lot of ways to increase unarmed strike damage, Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB), Items (mighty fist graft, ectoplasmic fist shards) or magic (Greater Mighty Wallop, Expansion, just plain old size increases)

[Fax Celestis]

Why not age yourself to an age category that grants you access to epic feats, then go with your typical AoO Monster type: spiked chain, combat reflexes, stand still, etc., except this time take Sneak Attack of Opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#sneakAttackOfOpportunity)?

[Shaostoul]

Well Venerable is the age category I'm shooting for, for use of epic feats, so that's not an issue. So far only unarmed class I've found is monk :/

I'm trying to get the most out of it before items.

[Greenish]

So far only unarmed class I've found is monk :/There's an adaption for swordsage, as well as several PrCs (I like Fist of the Forest), but really, you don't need a specific class for it, Improved Unarmed Strike is a feat.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Take note there is an adaptation on the Swordsage entry that says you can trade your armour proficiencies for Monks unarmed strike, class feature. Which in turn gives you the damage progression and Imp. Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.

Edit: How fitting, Swordsage'd

[Shaostoul]

Alright well I'm in the process of reading the swordsage dealio.

Any other suggestions would be nice...

What about prestige classes?

[Greenish]

What about prestige classes?That depends on what you're going to go for. Swordsage doesn't really need or want to PrC out, Daring Outlaw might dip here and there, but the main point is to stack the swash levels and so forth.

[Shaostoul]

Alright, well I guess I'll be doing a lot of reading tonight, haha.

Thanks for all the help.

[JaronK]

Note that one of the sovereign archetypes gives you a bunch of bonus feats in addition to some proficiencies, so that would obviously help.

And yeah, I'd go with a Factotum... they can really use the Int boost.

JaronK

[Greenish]

Note that one of the sovereign archetypes gives you a bunch of bonus feats in addition to some proficiencies, so that would obviously help.The previously mentioned Wyrm of War, yeah: all simple/martial weapons and all armour including shields. Also, bonus fighter feat every 4 HD.

Lightkeeper would allow you to pick up Turn Undead with a feat, to fuel Devotion feats (and maybe some other divine feats), but that's a bit rough on your feats.

[faceroll]

I'd think about picking up some unarmed swordsage. Something like Swashbuckler3/Swordsage4. That gets you 5th level stances.

Stance:
Assassin's Stance for +2d6 damage

Feats:
Weapon Finesse (bonus)
Shadow Hand (dex to damage)
Multiattack
Improved Unarmed Strike (bonus)
Daring Outlaw (+2d6 sneak attack)
Craven (add level to damage when making sneak attacks)

Class features:
Swordsage gets you wisdom to AC, swashbuckler gets you int to damage.
Swordsage also gets you cool stuff like teleporting

Racial features:
slight build gets you an additional +4 to hide
kobolds come with 2 claws and a bite

Attack looks like:
kick/claw/claw/bite
with dex to hit, and int & dex to damage, and 4d6 sneak attack. At level 8, you'll have kick/kick/claw/claw/bite.


That would be because Dragonwrought doesn't really have special benefits for anything other than spellcasters. I mean, it's still neat, but almost all the special dragon stuff is geared to casting. If you can swing the Sovereign Archetypes thing ('s where Loredrake comes from) Wyrm of War is useful, but it's nowhere near as powerful as Loredrake.. I suppose you could try making it a Xorvintaal dragon, under the same logic that somewhat-tenuously qualifies you for the sovereign archetypes, and take advantage of the fact that you get your draconic age categories much, much faster than standard dragons.

A feat for +3 to all mental stats, immunity to magical sleep, paralysis, and +2 to just about any useful skill is hardly "just good for casters."

[Darrin]

Why not age yourself to an age category that grants you access to epic feats, then go with your typical AoO Monster type: spiked chain, combat reflexes, stand still, etc., except this time take Sneak Attack of Opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#sneakAttackOfOpportunity)?

Or take distant shot (http://srd.realmspire.com/epicFeats.html#distant-shot) and throw your opponents onto the surface of the sun.

[Devmaar]

I'd think about picking up some unarmed swordsage. Something like Swashbuckler3/Swordsage4. That gets you 5th level stances.

Stance:
Assassin's Stance for +2d6 damage

Actually that's Initiator Level 5 for 3rd level stances.

[Hadessniper]

I'd think about picking up some unarmed swordsage. Something like Swashbuckler3/Swordsage4. That gets you 5th level stances.

Stance:
Assassin's Stance for +2d6 damage

Feats:
Weapon Finesse (bonus)
Shadow Hand (dex to damage)
Multiattack
Improved Unarmed Strike (bonus)
Daring Outlaw (+2d6 sneak attack)
Craven (add level to damage when making sneak attacks)

Class features:
Swordsage gets you wisdom to AC, swashbuckler gets you int to damage.
Swordsage also gets you cool stuff like teleporting

Racial features:
slight build gets you an additional +4 to hide
kobolds come with 2 claws and a bite

Attack looks like:
kick/claw/claw/bite
with dex to hit, and int & dex to damage, and 4d6 sneak attack. At level 8, you'll have kick/kick/claw/claw/bite.



A feat for +3 to all mental stats, immunity to magical sleep, paralysis, and +2 to just about any useful skill is hardly "just good for casters."

I'm currently playing a lvl 6 unarmed swordsage kobold and I've gotta it's pretty darn fun. I run out of hiding do a Soaring Raptor Strike, then on my next turn use Cloak of Deception to turn invisible, get four attacks with +2d6 sneak attack damage, and then teleport away into hiding to regain my maneuvers with Adaptive Style. Plus if I get hit while I'm in close combat I pop off a Fire Riposte to do an immediate 6d6 fire damage that I call my breath weapon.

[Fax Celestis]

Actually that's Initiator Level 5 for 3rd level stances.

(.5*3)+(4)=5.5, so he has IL 5.

[Greenish]

Shadow Hand (dex to damage)Sadly, claws or bite aren't shadow hand weapons.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sadly, claws or bite aren't shadow hand weapons.

+1 aptitude Necklace of Natural attacks takes care of that :smalltongue:

Or combine an unarmed strike (which are Shadow Hand weapons) with a natural attack routine (if you go this route, I would focus on boosts and counters, with just a few strikes)

[Shaostoul]

I'd think about picking up some unarmed swordsage. Something like Swashbuckler3/Swordsage4. That gets you 5th level stances.

Stance:
Assassin's Stance for +2d6 damage

Feats:
Weapon Finesse (bonus)
Shadow Hand (dex to damage)
Multiattack
Improved Unarmed Strike (bonus)
Daring Outlaw (+2d6 sneak attack)
Craven (add level to damage when making sneak attacks)

Class features:
Swordsage gets you wisdom to AC, swashbuckler gets you int to damage.
Swordsage also gets you cool stuff like teleporting

Racial features:
slight build gets you an additional +4 to hide
kobolds come with 2 claws and a bite

Attack looks like:
kick/claw/claw/bite
with dex to hit, and int & dex to damage, and 4d6 sneak attack. At level 8, you'll have kick/kick/claw/claw/bite.



A feat for +3 to all mental stats, immunity to magical sleep, paralysis, and +2 to just about any useful skill is hardly "just good for casters."


plus +1 aptitude Necklace of Natural attacks

plus I'm currently playing a lvl 6 unarmed swordsage kobold and I've gotta it's pretty darn fun. I run out of hiding do a Soaring Raptor Strike, then on my next turn use Cloak of Deception to turn invisible, get four attacks with +2d6 sneak attack damage, and then teleport away into hiding to regain my maneuvers with Adaptive Style. Plus if I get hit while I'm in close combat I pop off a Fire Riposte to do an immediate 6d6 fire damage that I call my breath weapon.

This actually sounding like a fairly good idea. I totally forgot about the swordsage being able to on the fly adjust their weapon focuses as well (or is that just warblade?)

I was browsing for a potential ranged build of shurikens or bow or something, but it seems like I'd almost want to pun-pun to make it worth it. (even if it is just +32 or +64 to all stats instead of the 20k like suggested XD)

[faceroll]

Actually that's Initiator Level 5 for 3rd level stances.

Yeah that was a typo. I did the math, then just got "5" stuck in my head. I had a player get confused about that and initiate a level 9 maneuver at level 10. It was like 22d6 or some crazy amount of damage. We all lolwut'd.

[riddles]

I like the idea of a dw kobold who actually thinks he's a dragon, beset by some shrinking spell. Doesn't spend his gp on gear, just hoards it and sleeps on it at night.

Dragon wings gets you flight, dfa gets you a breath weapon and you can make strafing runs that your party are immune to.

Alternatively, scout/swift hunter would work. As would rogue with rapidstrike etc.

Bard, dfi and natural attacks would be quite horrific.

Spear charger/dive bomber with paladin - lots of charisma for divine might and smiting

There's a lot you can do.

[Shaostoul]

Alright so I've been filling everything out for a Swashbuckler3/Swordsage4

This is how the feats/traits looks so far.
-(Swashbuckler) Weapon Finesse
-(Swashbuckler) Grace +1 (+Reflex Save)
-(Swashbuckler) Insightful Strike (+INT to Damage)
-(Swordsage) Quick To Act +1 (+Initiative)
-(Swordsage) Discipline Focus
---Weapon Focus (Unarmed)
---Insightful Strike (+WIS to Damage)
-(Swordsage) AC Bonus (+WIS to AC)
-(Dragonwrought Kobold) Dark Vision/Low-Light Vision 60'
-(Dragonwrought Kobold) Dragon Wings

I've expended two feats so far and have one left (unless I'm wrong :/).
Dragonwrought and Dragon Wings (Since I have to take them 'now' or I can't take them later.)

My stats are as follows, I rolled really well, with the DM present. This is after adjustments.

STR-12 DEX-20 CON-12
INT-20 WIS-20 CHA-20

-4 STR +2 DON -2 CON for standard Kobold.
+3 INT +3 Wis +3 CHA for venerable Kobold.
(what's the minimum age for age bonus of +3?)

The two stances I've chosen, which I was under the impression I could take are...

Assassin's Stance - Gain 2d6 sneak attack
Giant's Stance - Deal damage as if one size category larger

Maneuvers are rather unimportant.

------Now the questions section------
Do all I have at this present point is 3 feats? Well, only 1 after the two were spent on Dragonwrought and Dragonwings.

What's the minimum age for a dragonwrought kobold to receive +3 mental stats?

Where does the kick/claw/claw/bit set come from? Is that just from using unarmed attacks?

Bite is main attack and everything else is secondary?

In on of the posts above it lists...
Feats:
Weapon Finesse (bonus)
Shadow Hand (dex to damage)
Multiattack
Improved Unarmed Strike (bonus)
Daring Outlaw (+2d6 sneak attack)
Craven (add level to damage when making sneak attacks)

-I know where Weapon Finesse comes from. But how would this guy end up with all of these feats? Where do they come from?
---I don't know what "shadow hand" thing he is referring to.
---I also don't know where the Improved Unarmed Strike comes as a bonus, is that from weapon focus?
---I don't even know about the Daring Outlaw and Craven feats.

I have a grand total of 16000 gold to spend.

I know I need to add the amulet of natural attacks, but I want other suggestions.

---As a side note---

When all is said and done, I'll post the end result of what is made, if anyone wants me to that is.

[Greenish]

Alright so I've been filling everything out for a Swashbuckler3/Swordsage4The rule of thumb is usually to take an even number of non-initiator levels to benefit from their 0.5 IL. You could dip a level into something handy, such as barbarian, cleric or fighter.


STR-12 DEX-20 CON-12
INT-20 WIS-20 CHA-20Constitution is a bit low, did you roll them on order or can you shuffle them?


(what's the minimum age for age bonus of +3?)Venerable, or in your case Great Wyrm. :smalltongue:


The two stances I've chosen, which I was under the impression I could take are...

Assassin's Stance - Gain 2d6 sneak attack
Giant's Stance - Deal damage as if one size category largerYou can't take either of those stances. Assassin's Stance requires IL 5 (as a third level maneuver), and you get stances on SS1 and SS2, when your IL is 2 and 3, respectively.

Giant's Stance requires IL 9, so you're not getting it for a long time, not that you'd want it either. It's about 1 point of more damage, but ends if you move, and since it's not a shadow hand stance, you can't get Shadow Blade's dex to damage while in it.


Do all I have at this present point is 3 feats? Well, only 1 after the two were spent on Dragonwrought and Dragonwings.You have three from levels and Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat from Swash, yeah.


What's the minimum age for a dragonwrought kobold to receive +3 mental stats?120 years.


Where does the kick/claw/claw/bit set come from? Is that just from using unarmed attacks?What? You can use natural weapons on any full attack, assuming you're not using a manufactured weapon in the same limb (so you could have greatsword/bite, dagger/claw/bite, unarmed strike/claw/claw/bite or just claw/claw/bite).


Bite is main attack and everything else is secondary?The pair of claws are main, bite is secondary. If you use other weapons, all of them are secondary.



Shadow Hand (dex to damage)It should be noted that Shadow Blade has some limitations. It doesn't work on claw and bite attacks, for example, or when you're not in Shadow Hand stance.


-I know where Weapon Finesse comes from. But how would this guy end up with all of these feats? Where do they come from?Levelling up is the traditional way. Flaws might work too.


---I don't know what "shadow hand" thing he is referring to.Shadow Blade, feat from ToB.


---I also don't know where the Improved Unarmed Strike comes as a bonus?Unarmed Swordsage variant. It's in the adaption section near the end of the swordsage entry.


---I don't even know about the Daring Outlaw and Craven feats.Daring Outlaw is from Complete Scoundrel, and allows your Swashbuckler levels to progress your Sneak Attack (and your rogue levels to progress Grace).

Craven is from Champions of Ruin, and adds your level to Sneak Attack damage.


I know I need to add the amulet of natural attacks, but I want other suggestions.Since you have four natural weapons (unarmed strike, two claws and a bite), Amulet of Mighty Fist is cheaper than Necklace of Natural Weapons, though you can't add weapon properties to the former.

[Shaostoul]

Sadly, claws or bite aren't shadow hand weapons.
+1 aptitude Necklace of Natural attacks takes care of that

Above is a quote from earlier about the Shadow Hand weapon stuff.


Constitution is a bit low, did you roll them on order or can you shuffle them?

Rolled stats are shuffle-able, they are without mods at... 18, 17, 17, 16, 16, 14


You can't take either of those stances. Assassin's Stance requires IL 5 (as a third level maneuver), and you get stances on SS1 and SS2, when your IL is 2 and 3, respectively.

So I just reread the iniator level entry, so since I'm not full swordsage that makes me IL 3.5 because I'm a 7th level character? (Read quote below with text below that)


{Actually that's Initiator Level 5 for 3rd level stances.}
{(.5*3)+(4)=5.5, so he has IL 5.}

Above is a quote from earlier in the thread. So you're saying this is wrong?


Giant's Stance requires IL 9, so you're not getting it for a long time, not that you'd want it either. It's about 1 point of more damage, but ends if you move, and since it's not a shadow hand stance, you can't get Shadow Blade's dex to damage while in it.

Alright that makes sense, is there something you'd suggest then? This stances and maneuvers thing confuses the hell outta me.


The pair of claws are main, bite is secondary. If you use other weapons, all of them are secondary.

Alright so it's claw/claw/bite with both claws being normal attacks and the bite being secondary. What about the 'kick' then?


It should be noted that Shadow Blade has some limitations. It doesn't work on claw and bite attacks, for example, or when you're not in Shadow Hand stance.

I believe this is what the {+1 aptitude Necklace of Natural attacks} was supposed to remedy.


Levelling up is the traditional way. Flaws might work too.

Oh I forgot about flaws! Is there a larger list that I could look at or is that all there is?


Shadow Blade, feat from ToB.

I just read it and it sounds like it's either Shadow Blade or Weapon Finesse/Insightful Strike, not both.


Unarmed Swordsage variant. It's in the adaption section near the end of the swordsage entry.

So as I understand it. I remove light armor proficiency for improved unarmed strike?


Daring Outlaw is from Complete Scoundrel, and allows your Swashbuckler levels to progress your Sneak Attack (and your rogue levels to progress Grace).

So... I have to have a prior sneak attack for Daring Outlaw to actually be able to take the feat. So this would require a swashbuckler/rogue then right?


Craven is from Champions of Ruin, and adds your level to Sneak Attack damage.

So that'd be +7 damage. On a sneak attack.


Since you have four natural weapons (unarmed strike, two claws and a bite), Amulet of Mighty Fist is cheaper than Necklace of Natural Weapons, though you can't add weapon properties to the former.

What weapon properties can one add to the necklace?
-edit-
Finally found the necklace. Apparently ANY magic weapon enhancement.

[Greenish]

Above is a quote from earlier about the Shadow Hand weapon stuff.Even if "Shadow Hand weapon" counts as "particular type of weapon", +1 Aptitude Necklace of Natural Weapons for three weapons (two claws and a bite, unarmed strike is already shadow hand weapon) costs 26600gp.


So I just reread the iniator level entry, so since I'm not full swordsage that makes me IL 3.5 because I'm a 7th level character?The quote is correct, but you weren't a 7th level character when you took your first or second level in swordsage, back when you gained those stances.


Alright that makes sense, is there something you'd suggest then? This stances and maneuvers thing confuses the hell outta me.Island of Blades and Child of Shadow are both decent. You could take both, or either of them for combat, and an utility stance such as Step of the Wind.


Alright so it's claw/claw/bite with both claws being normal attacks and the bite being secondary. What about the 'kick' then?Kicks, headbuts, pelvic thrusts and the like are all just unarmed strikes. Since you can use the unarmed strike with, say, kicking the enemy with your foot, you can use it and still take both of your claw attacks and the bite.


Oh I forgot about flaws! Is there a larger list that I could look at or is that all there is?There are more flaws in some of the Dragon Magazines.


I just read it and it sounds like it's either Shadow Blade or Weapon Finesse/Insightful Strike, not both.Why not? Shadow Blade just adds your Dex to damage, in addition to Str, and (Swashbuckler's) Insightful Strike adds Int there. Weapon Finesse just changes melee attack from Str to Dex. There's no conflict.


So as I understand it. I remove light armor proficiency for improved unarmed strike?Yes. You also gain larger unarmed damage (as a monk of your swordsage level). Note that you gain light armour proficiency from swashbuckler, so you don't actually lose anything.


So... I have to have a prior sneak attack for Daring Outlaw to actually be able to take the feat. So this would require a swashbuckler/rogue then right?If you had Assassin's Stance, it would qualify you (though the feat would turn off if you used any other stance).


What weapon properties can one add to the necklace?Any that work on melee weapons. Throwing is a favourite.

[Shaostoul]

Even if "Shadow Hand weapon" counts as "particular type of weapon", +1 Aptitude Necklace of Natural Weapons for three weapons (two claws and a bite, unarmed strike is already shadow hand weapon) costs 26600gp.

According to Savage Species a necklace of 6 natural attacks is 15600 gold.

So a necklace for 3 would be 7800 according to the book.


The quote is correct, but you weren't a 7th level character when you took your first or second level in swordsage, back when you gained those stances.

Okay that makes sense.


Island of Blades and Child of Shadow are both decent. You could take both, or either of them for combat, and an utility stance such as Step of the Wind.

That doesn't sound too bad, works for me.


Kicks, headbuts, pelvic thrusts and the like are all just unarmed strikes. Since you can use the unarmed strike with, say, kicking the enemy with your foot, you can use it and still take both of your claw attacks and the bite.

Okay, that makes more sense.


Why not? Shadow Blade just adds your Dex to damage, in addition to Str, and (Swashbuckler's) Insightful Strike adds Int there. Weapon Finesse just changes melee attack from Str to Dex. There's no conflict.

Just wanted to confirm.


Yes. You also gain larger unarmed damage (as a monk of your swordsage level). Note that you gain light armour proficiency from swashbuckler, so you don't actually lose anything.

Alright, that sounds good to me.


If you had Assassin's Stance, it would qualify you (though the feat would turn off if you used any other stance).

So having that stance qualifies me for it, that's cool. I'll have to remember this when I meet initiator level.


Any that work on melee weapons. Throwing is a favourite.

Yeah, just did and edit before you post. Heh.

-edit-

So what type of boosts through gear would you suggest? Should I mostly focus around AC

Also, what do you suggest stat-wise, with the stats I provided?

[Greenish]

According to Savage Species a necklace of 6 natural attacks is 15600 gold.

So a necklace for 3 would be 7800 according to the book.The formula is 600+(enhancement bonus*number of natural weapons affected).

+1 necklace for three natural weapons would be 6600gp, but Aptitude is +1 equivalent, for a total of +2, which is 8000gp, so the total cost would be 600+(8000*3)=24600gp.

: No, my bad, the formula is (600+price of enhancements)*number of natural weapons affected. So 25800gp for +1 Aptitude Necklace of Three Natural Weapons.


Also, what do you suggest stat-wise, with the stats I provided?More Con. Int is nice, but you could have it lower, Cha is pretty much a dump stat (unless you dip cleric and pick up a devotion or two).

[Thiyr]

If you're going with the epic feats style of this, go for broke with hilarity. Be a straight fighter. Take epic toughness as every feat. Laugh in the face of anyone who dares try to puncture your impervious lizard-y flesh.

Of course, much as I would love to be serious about that, doing anything would be kinda difficult for you. Probably be better to go either SS or Fax's tripping build or something. But come on, don't you want more hitpoints than anything ever?

[Shaostoul]

I've pretty much gotten it all figured out at this point, I'm mostly looking for items and future plans as a swashbuckler/swordsage.

I'm pretty shy on gold right now, but I could part with some stuff without issue.

SS is swashbuckler/swordsage? or just swordsage or what? (Still learning all the abbreviations.)

[Greenish]

SS is swashbuckler/swordsage? or just swordsage or what? (Still learning all the abbreviations.)Just Swordsage, usually. USS or UASS is unarmed swordsage.