Help an old 2nd Edition-er make a 3.5 Bard?

[CelebrenIthil]

Hello!
I just got myself into starting a 3.5 edition games with some friends from an art community but I haven't played in YEARS and yeah I left while it was still 2nd edition. And now I'm all lost without my THACOs and proficiencies and negative armor classes! /joke

Seriously, 3.5 indeed sounds lot simpler in stuff but I am rusty and totally new to it so I'd really appreciate a little help from you guys in figuring how not to make a mess of my Bard.

If it can help, I'll talk a little about the character but you an skip this part if you want:
[OPTIONAL INFO]
The knack is we gave ourselves a sort of challenge for this game: we had to use a personal character of ours that had nothing in common with a fantasy setting and convert them to a D&D character.
So here I am working with this guy that's a musician, but also covered in burn scars, that usually uses insecticide and flamethrowers in his day work and that's totally uncomfortable around people unless he's playing music. He also stutters occasionally. I work with this to make a bard.

I'm gonna get creative with character flaws, making maybe a homebrew mix of http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Coward_%283.5e_Flaw%29 (forgot to mention he is a total wuss) http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Untouchable_%283.5e_Flaw%29 and http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Stutter_%283.5e_Flaw%29 )

Party is so far going to include a Cleric, a Thief-Acrobat, a Wizard (which also is based on a character that's an amputee of both legs that builds mechanical spiders. If you have any info on an obscure subclass that could build constructs familiars and legs, I'm taking too) and a Fighter.
[END OPTIONAL INFO]

I've got access to the Player's Handbook, "Song and Silence" and "Complete Mage". (maybe I can manage to get a hold of other books too but so far this is what I got)

My DM agreed to have me take Jack of All Trades (replacing Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack) and the Melodic Casting feat.

I'm a bit lost in all the list of Feats, Spells and Skills though, so I'd really love any tips/info/counsel.

Also, I'm kinda unsure if my Ability scores are well-chosen... (we start at level 5, going by "start at 8, 25 Point buy" rule...), I got so far
STR:10 DEX:14 CON:10 INT:14 WIS:8 CHA:16 where I used my new point awarded at Level 4 on INT....

I also don't really know I'm gonna fight with what weapon... I guess I have a liking for weapon finesse + rapier but then again I'm kinda squishy... IDK

So yeah any help at all much appreciated! Thanks a lot for your time!
:smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Yeah so I'm a rusty 2nd editioner and also I played in French so please be merciful of me and maybe now call too many things by their abbreviations because I'm totally not catching what they refer to most of the time augh sorry :smallfrown:

[Greenish]

Construct Grafter feat (Faiths of Eberron) allows one to make mechanical limbs (the legs are pretty cheap, for example), while Craft Construct allows building all sorts of nifty constructs.

Though the wizard might be interested in Artificer (ECS), which is a tinkering class with casting of sorts.


As for your bard, the limited books are a bit of a nuisance, since WotC in their infinite wisdom saw fit to disperse bard goodies in, well, everywhere.

Oh, and that Con 10 is going to be the death of you. :smalltongue:

[CelebrenIthil]

Thanks a lot, I'll try to pass that on to our Wizard and DM.

Also, blagh I know I don't like it but I have SO LITTLE points and so much I should be dabbling in! But you guys probably know more than me so far I've either played total meatshields or glass-canon mages so this Bard thing is all very new to me.
Augh how does I balance :smallannoyed:!?!

[Greenish]

25 pb is a bit rough on non-full casters. Magic-Blooded (Dragon Mag #306) template would help, it'd get you +2 cha, -2 wis, low-light vision and some SLAs, which is a pretty good deal for +0 LA template.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The Bard Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870498/The_Bards_Handbook) can help you with all things bard.

The quick and easy on it, though. Inspire Courage is pretty easy to maximize with a few things, none of which you have sadly. Even so, it can make up for your lower than good BAB while also adding to damage. 25 PB is rough, but you have the 16 in CHA for max spells. If you want more casting and get access to Complete Arcane (and want to be a musical caster), consider throwing all of your level up points into CHA and head for Sublime Chord.

If you just want spells as a side thing, that's also easily done. Generally, as a bard, you'll want things without saves due to your lower save DCs. To this in most buff and "utility" spells work well. If you do decide to get some offensive spells, do not get anything that deals raw damage. As a bard, if you want to damage, you Inspire Courage and hit things yourself!:smallbiggrin:

Feats should either go towards making you a better frontline fighter, spellcaster, or musician. Complete Mage has a lot of fun in it for bards, if I recall correctly, at least on the latter two there.

Since you're 8th level and presumably human, you've got a lot of options in the way of feats. You've already got Melodic Casting, so that's good. Other solid options are Extend Spell for making sure your buffs last long enough. Improved Initiative to make sure that, even if you are a coward, if there's a fight, you'll be the first to go, even if it is away. Outside of those three, though, it's largely anything bard-centric. Sadly, most of those feats are in Complete Adventurer.

If you honestly don't plan on actually hitting things in combat, then I recommend instead throwing nets at enemies to entangle them, switch to a new song, or just cast spells.

For stats, if you can change them, I'd probably run Str:8 Dex: 13 Con: 14 Int: 12 Wis: 8 Cha: 16, using both stat bumps from levels to get you to a pre-buffed charisma score of 18. If you're playing with wealth by level, items should be a constitution stat booster, a charisma stat booster, then whatever else floats your boat.


EDIT: A note on why constitution is more important in 3.X than in 2E. I know that there was some sort of limit on bonus HP from constitution in 2E, but in 3.5 for each HD (and thus class level) you get, you get your modifier in HP. Thus, lower HD classes generally want more constitution to compensate. Generally, if a wizard doesn't have constitution maxed after his intelligence score, something is wrong.

[CelebrenIthil]

Blah sorry I wasn't clear, we haven't started yet, and I'll be level 5, I just planned a few possible things out and made sure my DM wasn't against it in advance. My ability scores can still change and everything.

Also, I should have made this thread earlier, ungh, it's 2h30 a.m. and I think my mind simply cannot process all your very useful help as best as it should (and also it seems my explanations also got sloppy) so I'll go to bed now, but I'm very thankful and will appraise it all thoroughly tommorow.

Thanks<3

[faceroll]

Ability score optimization:
Start with a 14 intelligence and a 15 charisma. This will get you 2 extra starting points for ability scores, then put your 4th level ability point in charisma. You won't notice the difference in charisma until level 12ish. I would likely drop str to 9 and bump con to 12. The positive bonus of fort saves and extra HP is nice. The reason you want to start with 14 int instead of 13 is because it means you get 6 more skill points (4 additional at first level, 2 more at levels 2 & 3), due to the vagaries of the skill system.

Offensively, in combat, there are a couple spells that can get you A LOT of mileage, especially if anyone in your party is using sneak attack (probably the thief-acrobat). Grease is an incredible spell. It makes things fall down, so your fighter & rogue get +4 to hit them in melee (-4 at range, so be aware of that). They also have a very hard time staying up, as they need ranks in balance. For mindless things like golems, with no ranks in any skills, that is a flat DC10 dex check to stay standing! Balancing creatures are also flatfooted, which means they lose their dex to AC, making them vulnerable vs. sneak attack.

Glitterdust is a terrific blinding spell. Blindness, for many, many creatures, means they miss you 50% of the time, lose dex to AC, can't run, and get kidney knifed by the rogue.

Don't pick up any cure spells. Instead, buy a wand or two of cure light wounds (750gp each, 50 charges). Then, every time you heal someone with one, just charge them 15gp. It's a very efficient use of resources, and equitable.

Inspire Courage optimization:
You don't have the necessary books to really optimize your inspire courage, but I would take a look at the horns in Song & Silence. Two types of horns gives you +2 on attack & damage rolls instead of +1, but you lose the bonus on will saves vs. fear.

At level 5, you should be giving your whole party +3 on attack & damage. That is quite nice! A nice feat to get is extend song (or something like that). It makes your bard song last for 1 minute after you stop blowing on your horn, instead of 5 rounds.

Try and get a copy of the Spell Compendium. They have some very good bard spells in there. Inspirational Boost is a must have- it gives you another +1 attack/damage on your bard song. There are a couple other ones in there that are great at helping out your allies.

[Analytica]

Flamethrower + Bard screams Dragonfire Inspiration, to me.

[Lateral]

Flamethrower + Bard screams Dragonfire Inspiration, to me.

It does, but RotD isn't on the table. See if your DM will let you use Dragonfire Inspiration; when you use Inspire Courage with the feat, instead of the normal benefits the people affected by the song gain +1d6 fire damage for every +1 to attack they would have gained. It requires the Dragonblooded subtype to take, but there are a number of ways to get that. In particular, you could use a Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b) creature; it's on the web, so you have access to it.

[Shade Kerrin]

My personal suggestion here is to get a custom-design staff of various fire spells, and use it with UMD. I'd recommend Blast of Flame(Typical flamethrowery action in games), Wall of Flame(Set the ground on fire), Fireburst/Greater Fireburst(Spell Compendium, deals fire damage in a short range around yourself), and Combust(SpC again, touch attack that deals decent damage. Call it a point-blank attack). These suggestions are less optimized and more stylistic.

If possible, I'd suggest aiming for a Runestaff(Magic Item Compendium) instead. Significantly cheaper than a normal staff, compromised by the fact that it uses your own spell slots instead of a pool of charges. This might be better, though, since you won't need to worry about it eventually running dry. It also lets you apply metamagic feats to the spells. I'd recommend Searing Spell(Sandstorm), which will allow fire damage to remain at least partially effective even against fire elementals.

Complete Mage has Lyric Thaumaturge, which lets you directly add a small handful of Wiz/Sorc spells to your spells known list. Could be useful

[CelebrenIthil]

Ok, wow thanks all of you!

Our Wizard has the Spell Compendium so I'm gonna be able to nose in it, and I'm trying to see with the others for Complete Adventurer, so far supposedly one knows somebody that has it- hopefully I can get hold of it too.

I didn't know about that change about Con, thanks Thrice it is most helpful to know.
Also augh I indeed made such a stupid mistake buying my CHA using two points and putting the Level 4 point into INT when I could just invert them and get a free point thank you so much for pointing it out faceroll!
(bluh starting a character sheet past midnight is a bad idea)

I take note of Extend Spell and Improved Initiative, will be sure to get if I can put my hands on Complete Adventurer.

Thanks for the spell suggestions faceroll. I wonder if I can convince my teammates into pooling a bit for the wand since everyone will benefit. :)

Also, I mentioned the Magic-Blooded thing in a discussion and the DM didn't look very warm to it, so I'm not sure getting Dragon-blooded might fare better... albeit it makes more sense, character-wise.

BTW, my personnal fortune will start at 1000 platinum, I'm not gonna be able to get too many really shiny magic items and crazy spell components I think.
Hmmm....

Oh well you guys are all really helpful and I truly appreciate it, thanks!

EDIT: So. many. skills. wow. I'd gladly take a few pointers on which ones you think are a must for a Bard (sense motive is cool but with my low Wis, is it worth it? Are there cross-classes skills I should consider? Also maybe stupid question but does getting perform sing & perform strings both at 8 kinda stack into a sort of 16 ranks in perform of some such? I kinda dropped my Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack, should I take Knowledge Arcana?)

Also, does Combat Casting affect songs? Does Skill Focus: Perform looks like a solid choice?

Summon instrument cantrip, useful or rather a waste? Augh. Actually more spells suggestion, I take too.

Wow I am so lost and unsure of myself and rusty, sorry. *scrapes rust flakes from face*

[Amnestic]

It does, but RotD isn't on the table. See if your DM will let you use Dragonfire Inspiration; when you use Inspire Courage with the feat, instead of the normal benefits the people affected by the song gain +1d6 fire damage for every +1 to attack they would have gained. It requires the Dragonblooded subtype to take, but there are a number of ways to get that. In particular, you could use a Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b) creature; it's on the web, so you have access to it.

DFI is Dragon Magic, not RotD. Sadly, DFI is not on the Dragon Magic online excerpt.

[Shade Kerrin]

Ok, to skills and feats...*spits on hands*

Forget combat casting, not worth it even if it did apply to songs. Skill focus is also not recommended unless you absolutely need it(as in, prestige class requires it to enter).
Taking two different perform skills and using them together gives no benefit whatsoever, by default anyway. However, the Versatile Performer feat allows you to treat a number of perform skills equal to your int mod as having the same amount of ranks as your highest perform skill, and further gives a +2 bonus when you use them together.

Note that even with Bardic Knack, you will need to spend at least 1 point in each knowledge skill to use them, as they are Trained Only. On that topic, don't bother spending any points on cross-class skills, unless they are trained only, in which case spend one. Bardic Knack does not stack with actual ranks in skills, and essentially lets you treat all untrained skills as having max cross class ranks -1 in each of them.

Melodic Casting is a golden feat. It allows you to use Perform in place of Concentration checks, letting you drop the skill and spend the points on something else. It also allows you to cast a spell while playing bardic music, without needing to stop the music. Being a prerequisite for a decent PrC is just icing on the cake.

Assuming this is a level 1 game, and usually even if it is not, Extra Song(C Adventurer) is also a fine choice. Use your bardic music an extra 4 times a day, meaning you do not need to worry about saving it for later.

Lyric Spell(C Adventurer) would be a fine choice later, allowing you to spend your songs on spellcasting, would depend on how many spells you wind up going through in play as to whether it is worth it or not.

[Coidzor]

In regards to the construct familiars and legs things... the closest I can recall offhand to construct familiars are the expanded homunculi from Eberron and the graft system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7266.0)is about the only thing for robot legs & there's no perfect fit in the RAW for that anyway, so homebrew would be necessary for that... and probably getting the grafts system to work out in the way you all would like it to.

There's a couple of varieties of construct-based graft though, I believe there are Maug grafts from Fiend Folio(?) and Warforged grafts from one of the Eberron books.

[Greenish]

the graft system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7266.0)is about the only thing for robot legs & there's no perfect fit in the RAW for that anywayWhat's wrong with Heavy Legs (FoE)?

[Coidzor]

What's wrong with Heavy Legs (FoE)?

Couldn't recall any that made a previously bipedal creature into a 4 or 6 legged creature.

[Greenish]

Couldn't recall any that made a previously bipedal creature into a 4 or 6 legged creature.Oh, I missed the part where the wizard wanted to get more than two legs.

Well, there's an artifact components you might arguably qualify for with heavy legs graft.

[CelebrenIthil]

Thanks for the help on feats!

Hahah, Coidzor and Green, I don't really get where you are going with that but our Wizard would just needs a single pair of legs to fix his amputee status, nothing fancier in that regard... I did mention building a small spider construct as a familiar or something, if that's where the multiple leg thing came from?

Right now I'm trying to figure my spell list... Still one elusive Level 1 spell to pick (got Charm Person and after a long while picked Feather Fall (over expeditous retreat > my guy is a coward)...) I'd prefer something that can be used in battle but what. Hmm....

[Greenish]

Hahah, Coidzor and Green, I don't really get where you are going with that but our Wizard would just needs a single pair of legs to fix his amputee status, nothing fancier in that regard... I did mention building a small spider construct as a familiar or something, if that's where the multiple leg thing came from?Right, then heavy legs work. Just 6000gp (half of that to graft them yourself), and he'll be walking again.

Act now and we'll throw in free immunity to Fatigue and Exhaustion!

[faceroll]

Extend Spell is a worthless feat. It's marginally useful for full casters, but for you, you're better off holding onto the higher level spells for something better than a buff that lasts twice as long.

Another great spell to pick up would be Improvisation, also in the Spell Compendium. Gives you a *ton* of floating bonuses to skills that scales very nicely with level. Highly recommend it.


Ok, to skills and feats...*spits on hands*

Forget combat casting, not worth it even if it did apply to songs. Skill focus is also not recommended unless you absolutely need it(as in, prestige class requires it to enter).
Taking two different perform skills and using them together gives no benefit whatsoever, by default anyway. However, the Versatile Performer feat allows you to treat a number of perform skills equal to your int mod as having the same amount of ranks as your highest perform skill, and further gives a +2 bonus when you use them together.

Nifty, but ultimately not that useful.


Note that even with Bardic Knack, you will need to spend at least 1 point in each knowledge skill to use them, as they are Trained Only. On that topic, don't bother spending any points on cross-class skills, unless they are trained only, in which case spend one. Bardic Knack does not stack with actual ranks in skills, and essentially lets you treat all untrained skills as having max cross class ranks -1 in each of them.

Yeah, this is great advice. Bardic Knack encourages you to sink all your points in a few skills THEN NEVER SPEND POINTS ELSEWHERE, EVER. Except knowledge skills. Several of the know skills let you know weakness/abilities of monsters.

Arcana- dragons, constructs, magical beasts
dungeoneering- oozes, aberrations
Religion- undead
planes- outsiders, elementals
local- humanoids
nature- plants, animals, giants, fey, monstrous humanoids, vermin

Nature is the most useful, closely followed by local. Unfortunately, some DMs run local as to make it almost useless, so check with yours first. In my experience, arcana, nature, religion, planes are the most useful of all the knowledge skills.


Melodic Casting is a golden feat. It allows you to use Perform in place of Concentration checks, letting you drop the skill and spend the points on something else. It also allows you to cast a spell while playing bardic music, without needing to stop the music. Being a prerequisite for a decent PrC is just icing on the cake.

Worthless feat unless you're going for the prc. I would much rather spend one of my precious few bardic feats on something other than saving a handful of skill points.


Assuming this is a level 1 game, and usually even if it is not, Extra Song(C Adventurer) is also a fine choice. Use your bardic music an extra 4 times a day, meaning you do not need to worry about saving it for later.

Extra song is pretty much worthless by level 4; starting at level 5, he is VERY unlikely to see more than 5 encounters a day, and any close encounters, he can just keep bard song up between rooms or whatever. There's no max duration on singing a song.

[Shade Kerrin]

Extra song is pretty much worthless by level 4; starting at level 5, he is VERY unlikely to see more than 5 encounters a day, and any close encounters, he can just keep bard song up between rooms or whatever. There's no max duration on singing a song.

Still provides extra fuel for Lyric Spell.
Also, just as many GMs nerf Kn(Loc) heavily, many GMs would also look at you funny if your bard was singing/playing all day long.

[Gwendol]

If you can check out Complete Scoundrel as it has some *very* useful things for bards and rogues. One is the skill trick "Collector of Stories" that gives you +5 on the roll to identify monsters (added to the half-level ranks you already have from bardic knack). For you at level five that means +10 to the roll given an INT of 14.

Also, you need to think about the skills a lot since it is very different from AD&D. Tumble is important for getting around the battlefield without drawing AoO's, 5 ranks in balance and you avoid being flat-footed on narrow surfaces, and diplomacy and bluff checks can give you other options than combat. Since your CHA is high you shoould probably research the social skills and decide what to go for: bluff, diplomacy, intimidate

One thing about bards is the spell selection: grease, glitterdust, alter self, inspirational boost, and haste are probably the most useful. Don't forget glibness, combined with social skills (see above) you have a winner.

[Endarire]

Breaking Down Inspire Courage, Handbook Edition (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0)

[Tyger]

Worthless feat unless you're going for the prc. I would much rather spend one of my precious few bardic feats on something other than saving a handful of skill points.

Sorry to disagree (actually, no, I'm not sorry :smallbiggrin:) but Melodic Casting is one of the better feat choices for most bards. Not only for the ability to ignore the Concentration skill but also for teh ability to cast spells and use magic items while singing, which you ordinarily can't do. This feat appears on almost every optimized bard's list, for a darned good reason.

The rest of the advice given above is pretty good though.

[faceroll]

Still provides extra fuel for Lyric Spell.

True. I just find bards extremely feat starved.


Also, just as many GMs nerf Kn(Loc) heavily, many GMs would also look at you funny if your bard was singing/playing all day long.

Not all day, but for the 20 or 30 minutes it takes to clear out a dungeon.


Sorry to disagree (actually, no, I'm not sorry :smallbiggrin:) but Melodic Casting is one of the better feat choices for most bards. Not only for the ability to ignore the Concentration skill but also for teh ability to cast spells and use magic items while singing, which you ordinarily can't do. This feat appears on almost every optimized bard's list, for a darned good reason.

The rest of the advice given above is pretty good though.

Oh damn, it lets you use magic items while singing? That's very solid. Getting to ignore concentration is just a nice little perk, then.

[CelebrenIthil]

Wow I didn't expect much more replies, thanks all of you.
I'll be replying in a chaotical fashion, sorry:

Yeah things have changed a lot since AD&D... I had gotten myself a high Tumble skill but I hadn't gotten Balance up to 5; it didn't seem that useful: I'll go adjust.
I went with Diplomacy, mainly (seriously having a hard time imagine my dude intimidating anyone) and considered spending a few points on Bluff too, but maybe that's too superfluous?

Yeah I thought maybe I could sing and play the lute or something without having to jump into a bunch of hoops but it seems it's gonna be like that, so I'll disregard the idea.

Indeed I'm sticking up to Melodic Casting. :)

Thanks for the advice about Bardic Knack, I'll try to spread some 1 point into various knowledges to maximize the impact.

The spells I settled for so far are:
Cantrips - Know Direction, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic and Daze (a a hard time picking that last one, not certain I like it neither)

Level 1 - Grease, Charm Person, Expeditous Retreat (ok again, not sure of the usefulness but my guy is a coward) and Unseen Servant (seems to have a potential for all sorts of nifty usages... plus if it can grab things and make sounds you got the benefits of telekinesis and ventriloquism in one....IDK if it's really any good though)

Level 2 - Glitterdust, Alter Self

EDIT: By the way, I'm trying to homebrew myself a character flaw for my Bard.
The guy he is based from has a stuttering issue whenever he gets shy or stressed while speaking. When he sings or plays a performance he feels okay because they are not *his* words but when trying to express himself he stumbles. (it also pretty only happens when he speaks in his second language but the setting he was in had that second language as a default for everyone so he pretty much always had the problem in his interactions).

I'm trying to figure something like having to roll a Performance(Oratory) or something everytime he gotta accomplish speaking actions without the stutter. I also figure upon failure, he gains significant maluses to his Charisma, and other impairment for Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate... Also, I'm thinking of maybe adding something like a starting -1 to his Performance(Oratory) rolls when about to speak any other language than Common,.
I'm not sure how to balance it all properly, tough.

The Stutter flaw here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Stutter_%283.5e_Flaw%29) is not a bad baseline but my character specifically does not stutter at all times, only when talking. (Think, like Scatman John (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scatman_John) :smallbiggrin: )

[Amnestic]

Ask if you can use the Collar of Perpetual Attendance (2000gp) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) instead of having to spend one of your few spells known on Unseen Servant.

[CelebrenIthil]

Ask if you can use the Collar of Perpetual Attendance (2000gp) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) instead of having to spend one of your few spells known on Unseen Servant.

Hahahah. :D This is awesome.

[Rejakor]

You can pick up .pdfs of books online if you can't find/don't own hardcopies.

First thing to do when making a bard is to work out what you want it to do - musicbuff, cast, melee, or archer. You can do 1 well with mild-to-no optimization. You can do 2 well with heavy optimization. You can't do 3 well.

The bard handbook has most of it, but Song Of The Heart, Words Of Creation (all of which can be found at realmshelps character creator, btw), Melodic Casting, Lingering Song... all of those are good. Song Of The White Raven is especially good, or Subsonics. Both let you walk into combat and not waste your first round turning on your inspire courage.

A common route is to buff your inspire courage and then pick up two Crystal Echoblades and go to (TWF) town. Also common is to pick up melodic casting and the Sublime Chord prestige class at level 10, and get your full casting going, so you buff with inspire courage and then start shooting spells while singing.

[Lateral]

First thing to do when making a bard is to work out what you want it to do - musicbuff, cast, melee, or archer. You can do 1 well with mild-to-no optimization. You can do 2 well with heavy optimization. You can't do 3 well.
Snowflake Wardance and Song of the White Raven beg to differ. :smallamused:

[Rejakor]

Song Of The White Raven is especially good

The problem with trying to do 3 isn't that it's impossible to build a bard that can do 3. It's that you start running out of actions. When I found myself resorting to Cerebremancing so I could pick up the psycrystal and Control Body + Solicit psycrystal so my crystal could use my body to fight while I sang and used Melodic Casting to cast while I sang, and of course Talfirian Song to keep up those effects all day long, I decided that trying to do 3 was too much.

You basically need to sell your soul to elder evils just to get your nose in the door (5 free feats).

Also, you need like 3 feats to properly optimize inspire courage as is(Song Of The Heart, Words Of Creation, Song Of The White Raven). That leaves just about enough to do one of archery, melee, or casting.

You can go melee/music and then pick up Sublime Chord to grab 9th spells... but while it's nice to have, you can't afford to pick up the metamagic feats or save DC increasing feats required to properly use it.

EDIT: Oh, and mechanical spider legs are just argh in DnD. There's no system for crafting anything autonomous or mechanical or graft that doesn't cost umpty bajillion dollars, three feats, and a level's worth of xp. The only way to do it is to sort it out with your GM. Write up or stat up whatever you want, ask for a sane pricepoint.

[Lateral]

The problem with trying to do 3 isn't that it's impossible to build a bard that can do 3. It's that you start running out of actions. When I found myself resorting to Cerebremancing so I could pick up the psycrystal and Control Body + Solicit psycrystal so my crystal could use my body to fight while I sang and used Melodic Casting to cast while I sang, and of course Talfirian Song to keep up those effects all day long, I decided that trying to do 3 was too much.

Well there's your problem right there. Why the hell would you use a cerebremancer and Control Body? It uses your intelligence, which you otherwise don't need to keep up. Making a bard useful in combat is as simple as taking Song of the White Raven, and being a Bard 4/ Warblade or Crusader 16. Optimizing Inspire Courage takes three feats (five if you want to make use of sonic DFI), one spell, and a few items, and with Bard 4 you have enough uses to use every combat. Don't keep singing, it lasts 5 rounds after you stop- either take Lingering Song or just buy a Harmonizing weapon.

Even barring SotWR, you can build a melee bard by taking Snowflake Wardance and optimizing DFI as normal. Activate Wardance as a free action, IC as standard, IB as swift, move into position, and kick ass next turn.

Oh yeah, and those four feats you need for a Bardblade? Easy to get in time; be a Silverbrow Human, take DFI at 1st, Song of the Heart at 3rd, SotWR at 6th, and WoC at 9th; those are the earliest levels you qualify at (SotH requires IComp, SotWR requires at least one Warblade/Crusader level, and you don't qualify for WoC without a +5 Will save- which you get exactly at Bard 4/ Crusader or Warblade 3.) That leaves you one 1st level feat, and being an effective Warblade or Crusader isn't exactly feat-intensive.

[faceroll]

Well there's your problem right there. Why the hell would you use a cerebremancer and Control Body? It uses your intelligence, which you otherwise don't need to keep up.

I think it's because he needs to be using actions to sing and dance at the same time, but he has no actions left for attacking. Thus he uses control body.

[Lateral]

I think it's because he needs to be using actions to sing and dance at the same time, but he has no actions left for attacking. Thus he uses control body.

I suppose, but that's the problem with his logic- you don't need to keep up the bard song, all you need is a Harmonizing weapon or Lingering Song, and they last enough for the whole combat with very, very few exceptions. They both come online far quicker than the whole Cerebremancer thing. This way, you're out one standard action per fight- it's a setback, sure, but it's not huge if you're a Bardsader- you can still use a counter if necessary, although you'll probably be using Inspirational Boost instead of a crusader boost (or WRT, actually.)

Or you could activate it as a swift action in a crusader stance, but that means that Inspirational Boost is right out, which can hurt a bit.

[Rejakor]

... yes, it really is possible to melee and music. I said that it's too hard to do 3. I.e. melee and music and magic.

2/4 is fine (archery, melee, magic, music), 3/4 is too hard and suboptimal.

[ericgrau]

For spells when possible load up on crowd control, area/multi debuffs and status effect (not +X) buff spells since these are still good even at the lower bard level. For example grease, glitterdust, haste, slow, [greater] invisibility. Some bard-only spells like glibness are pretty good. Illusions are decent too. Unlike 2e you roll a will save to disbelieve illusions, but only if you interact with the illusion (examine it or etc.). If you have less actions than spells since you're casting higher level spells or you're doing some melee bard build, then the immediate action feather fall spell is nice, as are buffs (even +X) lasting 10 minutes/level or an hour per level because you don't need to cast them during combat.

[DiBastet]

"Welcome to the D&D world"

http://www.fantasyanime.com/valhalla/music/D&D%20Shadow%20Over%20Mystara%20-%20Song%2001%20Welcome%20to%20the%20D&D%20World.mp3

[CelebrenIthil]

Rejakor and Lateral lost me a little but I'm still reading, heheh.

Special thanks to ericgrau about the spells, it will be helpful to guide myself in my casting choices. :D

Dibastet, your link is broken, but don't I recognize in your quote the good old greeting of the Shadow Over Mystara arcade game (that I totally played on emulator but shhhh)? Ah, the nostalgia~

[DiBastet]

Wow, that's why I love hardcore 2ed players, so few around here these days, they recognize such oldies!

[CelebrenIthil]

Hahah, better substitute that "hardcore" for more accurate terms like "outdated" and "backwater". XD

You people on the GitP forums are more hardcore by leaps and bounds. I've always had a notoriously hard time to get a character to high levels due to the sheer difficulty of having a group to consistently meet and play that far. There simply wasn't a big enough pool of players in my younger days I guess. (And yeah I've only been able to carry over a character once: it always ended up with "everyone's gotta make brand new characters for this game! Also, you are level 1.")

I've always been trying to make good characters gameplay-wise but I'll settle for trying to have a fun time before making a twink- after all, I pretty much expect us to fail to carry a long-distance game far enough for me to actually get to do all sorts of cool intricate builds. We have newcomers to D&D too so even if our DM admitted to being a little sadistic, we shouldn't have it too hard.

I am still very grateful for all the 3.5 edition knowledge you've all crammed in there for me, it's immense help! (and who knows, I might get high enough to consider becoming a mind-controlled cristal of multisong higher being XD )