Tome of Fiends?

[Jjeinn-tae]

So, I have a player that seems interested in this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tome_of_Fiends_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29). Anyone used it before and seen how it works in general?

Seems interesting but way too much to look through at once, and I'm worried it is one of those tomes. "Those" is italicized as I'm not entirely sure which tomes I'm referring to, I just know they are ones that aren't Tome of Battle and Tome of Magic... and the old 3.0 ones. Anyone knowing about them probably knows what I'm referring to (at least I hope. :smalltongue:)

[Big Fau]

So, I have a player that seems interested in this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tome_of_Fiends_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29). Anyone used it before and seen how it works in general?

Seems interesting but way too much to look through at once, and I'm worried it is one of those tomes. "Those" is italicized as I'm not entirely sure which tomes I'm referring to, I just know they are ones that aren't Tome of Battle and Tome of Magic... and the old 3.0 ones. Anyone knowing about them probably knows what I'm referring to (at least I hope. :smalltongue:)

It's Frank&K's work from the looks of things.

[Halae]

For the most part, Tome of Fiends and a pair of similar sources called the Tome of Necromancy and the Economicon (Keep in mind, I may be inacurrate on the names, but they are similar at least) Are mostly just considerations for DMs to think about during world building and fleshing out NPCs. They're a good resource and worth the read, but take it slow. That's a whole lot of information to go through, as you said.

[Big Fau]

For the most part, Tome of Fiends and a pair of similar sources called the Tome of Necromancy and the Economicon (Keep in mind, I may be inacurrate on the names, but they are similar at least) Are mostly just considerations for DMs to think about during world building and fleshing out NPCs. They're a good resource and worth the read, but take it slow. That's a whole lot of information to go through, as you said.

And every last bit is 100% Rocket Tag. Something Frank&K's Tomes are famous for.

[GoblinArchmage]

I'm pretty sure that Frank&K's stuff is technically homebrew, so if "those" tomes are in print then they are something else.

I don't have any understanding of game balance myself, so keep that in mind regarding my opinion, but I really like Frank&K's stuff. Besides having interesting variant rules, their Tomes often contain some very amusing commentaries about the standard 3.5 rules.

You might find this helpful: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48453.

[Jjeinn-tae]

Ah, so it is one of those, I thought as much. But when you said Frank&K I googled it Big Fau, I am already somewhat familiar with one of their/his works, Races of War.

Would that I could just dive in and read. Thank you, you two; it was helpful. :smallbiggrin:

[Seerow]

Frank and K's tomes are fun reading, and can provide some fun fluff, for specific game types (specifically high magic every abuse in the book allowed games). For example, in such a game, I love the economicon as explaining how the D&D economy works when you have wizards who literally have infinite amounts of free wishes. On the other hand, such an economy only really works in such a high powered game, and it does mess with a lot of things. Primarily the assumption that if anything is under 25k gold, anyone can just pull it out of their boot and say they beat up some genie to wish for it last week. This gives casters access to basically any scroll at will, and most other consumables as well, which can drastically alter how the game is played, nevermind the other effects of "If it's under 25,000 gold you have it"

Their crunch, as someone else described, is basically rocket tag. They make their best attempt to ramp everyone else up to the power level of the wizard, rather than more general balancing, so some of their stuff is pretty over the top. That said, many of their prestige classes and such are directed at wizards, and as far as I remember, much of it wasn't nerfs. Also keep in mind several of their classes are really jokes. For example I remember one class in their Tome of Necromancy or whatever that was literally just a extended **** joke. (Bone Knight or something to that effect).

Anyway, there's people out there who swear by the tomes for high powered games, but I've never particularly cared for them. Best advice I can give is read through the whole set carefully, and decide for yourself if they're right for you.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Rule #1: If it is on dandwiki, run away. Fast.

Rule #2: it it doesn't have WotC seal on it, then it's effectively homebrew. Run away. Fast.

Rule #3: If your player is asking for it, he's probably got a combo to screw over your game with that requires it.

In brief: Just say NO.

[GodGoblin]

Rule #1: If it is on dandwiki, run away. Fast.

Rule #2: it it doesn't have WotC seal on it, then it's effectively homebrew. Run away. Fast.

Rule #3: If your player is asking for it, he's probably got a combo to screw over your game with that requires it.

In brief: Just say NO.

I agree with the first 2 but the player may just have a concept that this book allows, I agree to saying no as the Tomes are not power balanced with 3.5 if I remember correctly but post up his idea and im sure we can 3.5anize it! :smallbiggrin:

[Runestar]

Last I heard, tome of fiends was designed to be balanced alongside god wizards in a party.

You were warned...though the idea of playing a fiend from 1st lv which doesn't suck is just to seductive...:smallcool:

[Amnestic]

Rule #2: it it doesn't have WotC seal on it, then it's effectively homebrew. Run away. Fast.



Pfft. There's plenty of perfectly decently balanced homebrew. More so than a great deal of what WotC have to offer. Of course, there's a lot of awful stuff too. Perhaps, as with all things, homebrew should be judged on a case-by-case basis rather than all-or-nothing?

[Analytica]

Seconding in that this is homebrew by people with very, very different ideas on game style and power balancing than the people who wrote and published D&D. (Also, some might say that the style of writing expresses a certain arrogance.)

That said, if your player wants something, take out that particular part, modify it with respect to fluff and crunch until you are both happy and it is sufficiently balanced relative to your campaign world, game style, the degree of optimization of this player relative to other group members etc, then allow it.

[Tvtyrant]

Rule #1: If it is on dandwiki, run away. Fast.

Rule #2: it it doesn't have WotC seal on it, then it's effectively homebrew. Run away. Fast.

Rule #3: If your player is asking for it, he's probably got a combo to screw over your game with that requires it.

In brief: Just say NO.

What about the Ozodrin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153536), the Ascetic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199227), the planeswalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189767)or the Elder Gods (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68757) vestiges? I personally would like to play each of these for themselves, not for any crazy build that is over 9,000.

[Jjeinn-tae]

Rule #1: If it is on dandwiki, run away. Fast.

Rule #2: it it doesn't have WotC seal on it, then it's effectively homebrew. Run away. Fast.

Rule #3: If your player is asking for it, he's probably got a combo to screw over your game with that requires it.

In brief: Just say NO.

:smallamused: Shneekey, you're talking to someone who every other game or so tends to homebrew much content. :smalltongue:

Still, I have seen bad things on that wiki, but this tome is in others as well (Brilliantgameologists I think it was... my mangling probably makes sense). Doesn't necessarily make in balanced though.


Right now, I'm looking at what specifically is wanted, give a chance there, maybe tweak it, while also offering other opportunities. We shall see. Though indeed, looks like there are a lot of strong opinions here, they have inspired more caution. Thank you all again. :smallbiggrin:

[Big Fau]

Rule #1: If it is on dandwiki, run away. Fast.

Rule #2: it it doesn't have WotC seal on it, then it's effectively homebrew. Run away. Fast.

Rule #3: If your player is asking for it, he's probably got a combo to screw over your game with that requires it.

In brief: Just say NO.

I flat-out agree with 1, but Sturgeon's Law is in effect here, and this is Frank&K material we are talking about, not some random article off of the wiki.

Frank&K may not be appropriate for anyone who's looking for a Tier 3 campaign, but anyone playing a Tier 1 campaign will find the Tome of Fiends a challenge.